I thought I would post a quick tournament report. I took my deck on page 1 to FNM last night and finished 5-0. I learned a bit about my deck and things to change for next time.
Round 1
I played a person new to the store but not new to magic with Valakut. On game 1 my turn 3 Tectonic Edge against his Valakut after he used explore to ramp himself caused him to curse a lot. Followed up next turn with another Tectonic that just stayed on the field taunting him. I won that one on the back on a Perseuctor that stuck around.
Game 2 my third turn sideboarded Sadistic Sacrament caused an outcry that I way play "jank" and not "real vampires". With one valakut on the field, one in hand and the other two removed, it was not much of a fight. I won with 2 Percys that he thought I could not get rid of, I introduced him to Consuming Vapors.
This made me laugh. haha
Good job at fnm.
I didn't get to go this week. Hopefully next week I'll have a report up.
(On a somewhat related note I live in an apartment with very thin walls and the internet meme "Surprise buttsecks!!" isn't just on the internet anymore. Man that girl sounded pissed off.)
Currently playing Standard
:symr::symu::symg::symw:Mid-range:symr::symu::symg::symw: Modern
:symu::symb::symw::symr:AdNauseam:symu::symb::symw::symr:
You know, I actually *didn't* top4 this week. 3-1 record though. We had 39 people, but our TO didn't have time to run a full 6 rounds, so we did four rounds, and split to top4.
Anyways:
Naya: 2-0. Bad deck is bad...and this one ran only basic lands.
G/W Aggro: 2-0. I think this deck had some kind of strategy, but I never saw it.
U/W Open the Vaults: 0-2. Yup, my first "real" match of the night. Game one Back to Back to Back OtV is just brutal, though I still nearly outraced him with a giant Nightmare.
Game two I side in 3x Haunting Echoes, keep a three land hand with Echoes, and proceed to draw no more lands. Mana Screw just sucks. I showed him 2x Haunting echoes afterwards, and he visibly cringed.
Mythic Bant: 2-0. This match was actually kinda funny, but in the end he just couldn't stick a creature. Killing 4 Baneslayers back to back made my night though.
I noticed that Drana felt like overkill all night, but since two of my matchups were Jank, one was one of our best MUs (Mythic), and OtV isn't really Drana's MU, I feel like I'll need another tourney for real results.
The Top4 was Jund, MWC, Grixis, and Naya. MWC beat Jund, and Grixis beat Naya in the Semi-finals, and I left as game 3 of the Finals began. We have a very Diverse Meta, which is quite fun, but it just wasn't my night.
I'm going to have to work on the numbers for my removal, but I this version will be pretty strong. I initially wanted to go the Eldrazi route, but I think I'll try this version first.
My biggest issue right now is deciding on Inquisition of Kozilek vs. Duress. I just can't decide. I know there will be times when I want the other, but I can't figure out which will be useful, more often.
What's everyones play experience been like with Inquisition?
I'm going to have to work on the numbers for my removal, but I this version will be pretty strong. I initially wanted to go the Eldrazi route, but I think I'll try this version first.
My biggest issue right now is deciding on Inquisition of Kozilek vs. Duress. I just can't decide. I know there will be times when I want the other, but I can't figure out which will be useful, more often.
What's everyones play experience been like with Inquisition?
IMO, IoK is awesome against aggro, since you can take early creatures. But, my understanding is that MBC is already REALLY brutal against aggro, what with all of the creature removal and lifegain and sweepers and such. I would think that Duress is a WAY better card for MBC, as it can take stuff that you have trouble with, like plainswalkers and larger CC stuff.
The only thing IoK has over Duress is that you can take creatures at 3cmc and less -- how many of those present a huge problem for MBC? Seems like either running Duress main and more removal side or vice-versa would be the way to go.
IMO, IoK is awesome against aggro, since you can take early creatures. But, my understanding is that MBC is already REALLY brutal against aggro, what with all of the creature removal and lifegain and sweepers and such. I would think that Duress is a WAY better card for MBC, as it can take stuff that you have trouble with, like plainswalkers and larger CC stuff.
The only thing IoK has over Duress is that you can take creatures at 3cmc and less -- how many of those present a huge problem for MBC? Seems like either running Duress main and more removal side or vice-versa would be the way to go.
Well, the primary reason I want to include IoK is for Thrinax. God I hate that card...
Which since the deck is based around lots of sac effects, token's kind of nerf that a lot. But I will say, the ability to get rid of a Jace on turn 1 is nice. Probably in the end I'll choose Duress, but I do like IoK a lot.
If MBC isn't going to make use of IoK, I wonder which will?
What's everyones play experience been like with Inquisition?
It's a meta choice. That's a crappy answer, but it's true.
If there is a lot of aggro in your meta (WW, Koros/Boros, RDW/RbDW, Allies, etc.), then IoK is better. Most decks like this curve out at 4, so IoK's drawback is irrelevant. Duress, on the other hand, will whiff too often.
If there is a lot of control or combo, then Duress is better. Black has a very tough time with Planeswalkers and Enchantments, and most of these decks run very few creatures.
If you're going to a tournament, you can reasonably expect 50%+ of the meta to be Jund and UW. Duress is obviously better in that situation. However, in less competitive environment (i.e. people that may not have $400 to spend on a killer deck), Inquisition is as good if not better.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
1. You should definitely find a way to increase your actual swamp count, either by dropping a couple of the Edges or slightly decreasing the fetchland count (granted they work well with Ob Nix and GD). 15 swamps is about the lowest I would feel comfortable with. 4 Tectonic Edge probably hurts us more in the early going than it does them, so cutting it down to 2 will probably do you good.
2. There absolutely needs to be a third Mind Sludge in your maindeck - you want to see this card every game (but we obviously don't run 4 because it's horrendous in multiples). Even in matchups where it might not be all that relevant, it's still nice to have the option in game 1 to bin their entire hand on turn 5 if they get off to a rocky start. Most people would probably agree that All Is Dust is the easiest cut to facilitate another Mind Sludge. At 7 it's not really all that exciting unless you're blowing up 3 Oblivion Rings and a Planeswalker on turn 25 or something silly like that.
3. You could probably afford to diversify your sideboard a little more. I'm personally a big fan of the Black Knight + Bloodwitch overkill on white decks, but I feel like Sadistic Sacrament is a pretty awkward card that doesn't need to be a 4-of, and running 4 Duress in the main with 4 Inquisition in the SB doesn't really make sense (if you feel Duress is MD worthy then there's no need for Inquisition as the alternate - more removal is just better in that case). Consider other options like Smother/Deathmark, Suffer the Past, Pithing Needle, or Liliana Vess that might function marginally worse in the specific instances where you would want Inquisition or Sadistic Sacrament but will give you a bit more game in other areas.
4. I like the singleton surprise Haunting Echoes in the main. Any good stories to share regarding this?
This does not work, since once they announce the unearth, the creature is no longer in the graveyard, but on the stack. You can prevent them from unearthing by using suffer on thier upkeep or draw step, since unearth is played as a sorcery, but you can't stop unearthing once it has been announced.
Wrong. Unearth is an activated ability which is only usable from the yard and only at sorcery speed. It says <cost>: Put this onto the battlefield. You have more than enough time to react and cast suffer the past to remove it so it does not come back. The ability is put on the stack, not the card.
It's a meta choice. That's a crappy answer, but it's true.
If there is a lot of aggro in your meta (WW, Koros/Boros, RDW/RbDW, Allies, etc.), then IoK is better. Most decks like this curve out at 4, so IoK's drawback is irrelevant. Duress, on the other hand, will whiff too often.
If there is a lot of control or combo, then Duress is better. Black has a very tough time with Planeswalkers and Enchantments, and most of these decks run very few creatures.
If you're going to a tournament, you can reasonably expect 50%+ of the meta to be Jund and UW. Duress is obviously better in that situation. However, in less competitive environment (i.e. people that may not have $400 to spend on a killer deck), Inquisition is as good if not better.
The best use of IoK is against Jund, where it removes Thrinax. Thrinax makes some of our best removal useless (Gatekeeper, Consuming Vapors).
I'll go ahead and post what happened to me last night. I've normally been playing vampires but got into MBC about a week and a half ago and so the lack of play time really hurt, as I went 2-2 last night at FNM. Here's my list:
First Match Vs. G/W/B Aura/Enchantment
First game he had a spiritdancer out fast with 2x auras on it before I drew into any removal. By the time I was at 4 mana for a Tendrils, the dancer was so far out of range. Anyways, next two games swung much greater in my favor as I was able to drop mana everyturn and always had removal handy. Won the match 2-1.
1-0
Second Match Vs. G/W Eldrazi Ramp
I had just watched this guy beat his first opponent in consecutive games and he hardcasted Emrakul...Which is just what he did against me on T7. Had two chalices out with a converted 4 mana and some temples/eyes and NO tokens. It was crazy. Second game I sided in my Sacraments and Hexmages (for the chalices) and drew into neither of them! Very frustrating games as I felt the deck was a bit janky. He ended up losing his next two matches to U/W control and so I think this one came down to my lack of practice. Lost the match 0-2.
1-1
Third Match Vs. Naya
I'm sure his deck was really good, but I was just totally unprepared and haven't played Naya in so long. It was waaaay to fast for what I was drawing into and hit 4 mana the turn before he swung in for the win. Second game, sided in the smothers alongside the deathmarks but had more mana trouble, plus his 2x KotR, BBE and pumped Scute Mob was too much by the time I could throw anything down. Lost the match 0-2.
1-2
Fourth Match Vs. Vampires
I was still reeling from the past two matches feeling pretty down so I gave up the first game to Vamps with some bad plays and more mana trouble. Took the next two games fairly easily, shouldn't of been so risky in the first game though. Won the match 2-1.
Finished 2-2 and overall I'm in love with the deck. I really enjoy the playstyle and love hitting the removal. Consuming Vapors is such a great card and I could see it going to 10-15 dollars really soon.
I do need some help with the deck though obviously. The deathmarks MB are a meta call, and I probably should have gone 3 Bloodwitch/2 Nightmare instead of the Drana as I hadn't tested her much. If she got out in games she either got removed or I was already going to win, so very early to tell on Drana...
I live in the Nor-Cal area so next Saturday is a PTQ in Santa Clara, then June there is one in Sacramento. I'd love to take this deck to the PTQ's and do some real damage but like I said, need some help. I love reading through the previous thread, and thanks to all who posted their and who have been posting on this one as well.
By the way, I had to buy yellow sleeves before the fourth match and try it out. Best looking combo ever.
1. You should definitely find a way to increase your actual swamp count, either by dropping a couple of the Edges or slightly decreasing the fetchland count (granted they work well with Ob Nix and GD). 15 swamps is about the lowest I would feel comfortable with. 4 Tectonic Edge probably hurts us more in the early going than it does them, so cutting it down to 2 will probably do you good.
2. There absolutely needs to be a third Mind Sludge in your maindeck - you want to see this card every game (but we obviously don't run 4 because it's horrendous in multiples). Even in matchups where it might not be all that relevant, it's still nice to have the option in game 1 to bin their entire hand on turn 5 if they get off to a rocky start. Most people would probably agree that All Is Dust is the easiest cut to facilitate another Mind Sludge. At 7 it's not really all that exciting unless you're blowing up 3 Oblivion Rings and a Planeswalker on turn 25 or something silly like that.
3. You could probably afford to diversify your sideboard a little more. I'm personally a big fan of the Black Knight + Bloodwitch overkill on white decks, but I feel like Sadistic Sacrament is a pretty awkward card that doesn't need to be a 4-of, and running 4 Duress in the main with 4 Inquisition in the SB doesn't really make sense (if you feel Duress is MD worthy then there's no need for Inquisition as the alternate - more removal is just better in that case). Consider other options like Smother/Deathmark, Suffer the Past, Pithing Needle, or Liliana Vess that might function marginally worse in the specific instances where you would want Inquisition or Sadistic Sacrament but will give you a bit more game in other areas.
4. I like the singleton surprise Haunting Echoes in the main. Any good stories to share regarding this?
I slightly modified my list, haha.
-4 Edge, +4 Swamp. After testing, I just began to hate pulling that tectonic edge. It's just frustrating to turn 5 sludge for 4.
Also on the point of sludge, I haven't had any problems getting it, but maybe I will in the future. I'll test more, and see what happens.
The Sadistic Sacraments are one of the most impressive cards against control, IMHO, since it totally removes their bomb spells.
An example of this is that I turn 3 sad sacced a B/U control player who had a deck fond of drawing with mind spring and keepings cards in hand with reliquary tower. His wincon (from a previous game), I found, was Martial Coup. I removed both coups and his tower... he scooped.
I agree on the point of IoK. I prefer duress, but I like the additional hand control early game vs heavier control decks.
And possibly my favorite Haunting Echoes story is when I was playing vs BR discard. One of every business spell was in his graveyard (at least) and i echoes. He was left with basic land.
All is dust has saved me a few times... but more testing will definitely happen.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[My Decks]
Monoblack Control BBB
Extended Grixis UBR
Bruiser Tapout BU
By the way, I had to buy yellow sleeves before the fourth match and try it out. Best looking combo ever.
haha Yessssssss.
Glad you're enjoying the deck so far. And good luck at your PTQ next week.
Get as much testing in as you can.
Try out the 3 Bloodwitch / 2 Nightmare, I love it.
I ran the deck today at the StarCityGames Atlanta 5k instead of my normal RbDW (mistake). I'll post more about it later, but let's just say I'll be making changes to my decklist.
I ran the deck today at the StarCityGames Atlanta 5k instead of my normal RbDW (mistake). I'll post more about it later, but let's just say I'll be making changes to my decklist.
Any stories help. At this point I really just like the idea of people throwing stuff up against the wall and seeing what sticks. Look forward to this.
Any stories help. At this point I really just like the idea of people throwing stuff up against the wall and seeing what sticks. Look forward to this.
I won one round against Mythic, lost to Jund, then Chapin Control (Iona, then Jaced), lost to Esper Control because I pulled 15 lands in a row (wtf?), also lost to a U/g Summoning Trap deck before I got irritated and dropped. I didn't expect to place very high, but I didn't expect it to run this poorly after such fantastic runs previous. I would have won the Control and the Summoning Trap match ups if I had ran SadSac in my sideboard like I was planning to. I understand that it doesn't directly manipulate their hand or the board, but it shuts down combo decks and can cripple more competitive decks.
My plan is to replace IoK with Duress and try to find a place for it on the mainboard. I would like to include more targeted removal, likely in the form of Smother. I would also like to include Bloodwitch mainboard given the amount of White removal in the meta atm. It's almost like every deck that runs white is guaranteed game one. I feel like this deck needs more manipulation than removal and Mind Sludge mainboard.
Edit: forgot to mention that I'm throwing in a few fetchlands just for the free shuffle after the Esper Control debacle
I won one round against Mythic, lost to Jund, then Chapin Control (Iona, then Jaced), lost to Esper Control because I pulled 15 lands in a row (wtf?), also lost to a U/g Summoning Trap deck before I got irritated and dropped. I didn't expect to place very high, but I didn't expect it to run this poorly after such fantastic runs previous. I would have won the Control and the Summoning Trap match ups if I had ran SadSac in my sideboard like I was planning to. I understand that it doesn't directly manipulate their hand or the board, but it shuts down combo decks and can cripple more competitive decks.
It didn't make any difference really for me last night, but I wasn't going to play FNM if I didn't pick up 3x Sadistic Sacrament for my SB. In my meta (and what I expect the meta to look like a month in post-ROE), SadSac is just that important. I think your day could of at least been more competitive if they had had a chance.
My plan is to replace IoK with Duress and try to find a place for it on the mainboard. I would like to include more targeted removal, likely in the form of Smother. I would also like to include Bloodwitch mainboard given the amount of White removal in the meta atm. It's almost like every deck that runs white is guaranteed game one. I feel like this deck needs more manipulation than removal and Mind Sludge mainboard.
I was thinking about putting one of those cards (IoK/Duress) in my SB and really to me you are right. Duress is an absolute must over IoK in my mind. It gets rid of PW's and removal which are tougher for us. We have enough creature removal that we don't need to take their creatures in their hand away IMO. Also, even in my Vamps days, Mind Sludge MB is a no-brainer. I run 3 and the card just simply works against every match up, except RDW I would guess. (Don't play much RDW in my meta.) If you have your finisher in hand or draw into it within the next two turns, Sludge is almost an I win card.
It didn't make any difference really for me last night, but I wasn't going to play FNM if I didn't pick up 3x Sadistic Sacrament for my SB. In my meta (and what I expect the meta to look like a month in post-ROE), SadSac is just that important. I think your day could of at least been more competitive if they had had a chance.
If I had SadSac, I would have completely demolished some of my opponents, but I didn't. That's my mistake and I won't be making it again.
I was thinking about putting one of those cards (IoK/Duress) in my SB and really to me you are right. Duress is an absolute must over IoK in my mind. It gets rid of PW's and removal which are tougher for us.
Yeah, I had severe problems with Jace. I never saw my Pithing Needles
We have enough creature removal that we don't need to take their creatures in their hand away IMO.
Definitely. Creature removal was my original reason for running IoK but it's clearly redundant.
Also, even in my Vamps days, Mind Sludge MB is a no-brainer. I run 3 and the card just simply works against every match up, except RDW I would guess. (Don't play much RDW in my meta.) If you have your finisher in hand or draw into it within the next two turns, Sludge is almost an I win card.
Sludge is insane. It gets sided out against RDW though. I've been thinking of squeezing in Haunting Echoes for some hypothetical turn 5 sludge, turn 6 echoes combo.
Ran a version of MBC at my first constructed FNM. Went 3-3 (2-3 vs. real competition, had 1 win off a brand new player). I had very limited testing beforehand, and very little play in general against the meta. This caused many unfortunate misplays.
I would've included at least 2 Haunting Echoes in the SB (maybe even main due to how many combo decks I played)- but sadly I couldn't get a hold of them in time.
Round 1: 2-0 vs. G/R cluster@#$%
@He, like myself, was playing in his first FNM - unfortunately for him he started playing magic that Wednesday. It wasn't pretty.
Round 2: 2-0 vs. UWg polymorph
@First game I kept killing every token he could produce - but after a few turns of tendrils/Oring he manages to morph a token from Elspeth, grabbing Iona and naming black. I play All is Dust - and watch in real time as his heart explodes. Easily the best moment of the night. Nightmare+percy get the win.
@Game two got a Mind Sludge off - but it still went back and forth, managed to stick a Liliana and tutor for my win cons to pull out the win as the clock ran down.
Round 3: 0-2 vs. open the vaults
@Game one I got a turn five Mind Sludge sending two(!) open the vaults to the yard. After the next 6 turns of land draw with no win cons, he drew another vaults, and game.
@Game two I sided in the sadsacs, duresses. He countered a turn 5 mind sludge - but wasn't able to counter the sadsac the following turn. I pull three open the vaults out of the library - and see the fourth still in there too. My win cons get hosed and he draws the remaining vaults 3 turns later. Brutal. Really missing haunting echoes here.
Round 4: 0-2 vs. Naya w/ Vengevine
@Both games, I was out too slow and crushed. After getting completely destroyed the first game (even after a turn 5 mind sludge...) I sided in the suffer the pasts hoping to stop the vengevine nuttiness but no draw. However, I made a ton of really bad misplays due to my unfamiliarity with the meta (and apparently naya in particular, #$@#$ing KoR.)
Round 5: 0-2 vs. UG polymorph
@Both games I wasn't able to get any nighthawks or gatekeepers to stick - MS countered or nonexistent, and I was presented with a dilemma. Vs. polymorph after turn 5 or 6, I wanted to tap out to play any of my win cons (due to a predictably slow start) However, sitting with tendrils in hand, if I tapped out I couldn't respond to a morph if he played it. So, game 1 I took a chance, played Vess - countered, morph and I don't draw all is dust. Game two, playing more conservatively (with the sadsacs who didn't appear) I couldn't play any win cons without jeopardizing my removal. Got ultimated by jace, ouch.
Round 6: 2-1 vs RDW
@Straightforward game 1, his creatures were dead and his hand empty.
@Game two I lost, as he drew 2x goblin guide, didn't draw a tendrils and the lone nighthawk ate a LB.
@Game three got enough smothers and tendrils to hold it down - suffer the past for 8 or so for the win.
So, discounting round 1 - I went 2-3 with little to no experience. I feel now, being a little sharper I would have fared better. Any help or tips would be appreciated.
I'm have a feeling someone has already attempted this kind of deck yet (I'd be incredibly surprised if that isn't the case), but I'm trying my hand at making a mono black control deck that focuses on heavy discard control, then Nirkana Revenant, then suffer the past on their graveyard to win. Also Howling mines for more draw so I can make them discard more. Here would be a basic outline
The close variant to this would be running consume spirit instead (or in conjunction) with suffer the past. If run as two separate decks, then I would put in more creature destruction instead of discard. What do you guys think would be better, suffer as one deck and spirit as another or complementing each other in one deck? And if separate, which one would be more competitive?
I do realize I only have 2 tendrils of corruption. Suggest what to take out for more and I probably will (same applies if you suggest putting in consuming vapors).
Also, what other cards do you guys suggest for discard? I was thinking hypnotic specter, but idk...
But I assume there are other good discard cards out there, I probably just don't know them, so suggestions there too are greatly appreciated.
So, terrible? Possible? What changes are necessary?
I'm have a feeling someone has already attempted this kind of deck yet (I'd be incredibly surprised if that isn't the case), but I'm trying my hand at making a mono black control deck that focuses on heavy discard control, then Nirkana Revenant, then suffer the past on their graveyard to win. Also Howling mines for more draw so I can make them discard more. Here would be a basic outline
The close variant to this would be running consume spirit instead (or in conjunction) with suffer the past. If run as two separate decks, then I would put in more creature destruction instead of discard. What do you guys think would be better, suffer as one deck and spirit as another or complementing each other in one deck? And if separate, which one would be more competitive?
Also, I do realized I don't have any tendrils of corruption. Suggest what to take out for it and I probably will.
So, terrible? Possible? What changes are necessary?
First off I don't think you would need 4x Mind Sludge. I would go 3x max.
Second, if you want their hand to be empty, I don't know why you would run Howling Mine.
Third, there's a certain amount of diminishing returns with IoK, Duress and Mind Sludge. If you happen to have both and IoK and Duress in hand, one could become a dead card instantly after seeing their hand. I would favor Duress if you had more removal, which I think you should have anyways.
Fourth, not only do you not have Tendrils, but also no Consuming Vapors. This is a rising star for our deck and shouldn't be any less of a 3 of in any mono-black deck IMO.
Does this help things out? But now I feel like I'm kinda removal heavy, which would be pointless again control decks but meh. Does this deck seem playable/competitive? I think the idea is there, I just worry I might not be the best person to make the competitive build for it...
Edit: Added in sign in blood, forgot about that when making build. I want 4, but at least 3, but I'm not sure what to take out for them
This made me laugh. haha
Good job at fnm.
I didn't get to go this week. Hopefully next week I'll have a report up.
Legacy: Pox | Tiny Leaders: Thalia Hatebears
Currently playing
Standard
:symr::symu::symg::symw:Mid-range:symr::symu::symg::symw:
Modern
:symu::symb::symw::symr:AdNauseam:symu::symb::symw::symr:
Anyways:
Naya: 2-0. Bad deck is bad...and this one ran only basic lands.
G/W Aggro: 2-0. I think this deck had some kind of strategy, but I never saw it.
U/W Open the Vaults: 0-2. Yup, my first "real" match of the night. Game one Back to Back to Back OtV is just brutal, though I still nearly outraced him with a giant Nightmare.
Game two I side in 3x Haunting Echoes, keep a three land hand with Echoes, and proceed to draw no more lands. Mana Screw just sucks. I showed him 2x Haunting echoes afterwards, and he visibly cringed.
Mythic Bant: 2-0. This match was actually kinda funny, but in the end he just couldn't stick a creature. Killing 4 Baneslayers back to back made my night though.
I noticed that Drana felt like overkill all night, but since two of my matchups were Jank, one was one of our best MUs (Mythic), and OtV isn't really Drana's MU, I feel like I'll need another tourney for real results.
The Top4 was Jund, MWC, Grixis, and Naya. MWC beat Jund, and Grixis beat Naya in the Semi-finals, and I left as game 3 of the Finals began. We have a very Diverse Meta, which is quite fun, but it just wasn't my night.
19 Swamps
4 Tectonic Edge
2 Gargoyle Castle
Creatures: 13
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Sign in Blood
4 Duress
3 Consuming Vapors
3 Tendrils of Corruption
3 Mind Sludge
3 Grim Discovery
2 Smother
3 Malakir Bloodwitch
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Mind Sludge
3 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Haunting Echoes
3 Infest/Consume the Meek
2 Deathmark
I'm going to have to work on the numbers for my removal, but I this version will be pretty strong. I initially wanted to go the Eldrazi route, but I think I'll try this version first.
My biggest issue right now is deciding on Inquisition of Kozilek vs. Duress. I just can't decide. I know there will be times when I want the other, but I can't figure out which will be useful, more often.
What's everyones play experience been like with Inquisition?
IMO, IoK is awesome against aggro, since you can take early creatures. But, my understanding is that MBC is already REALLY brutal against aggro, what with all of the creature removal and lifegain and sweepers and such. I would think that Duress is a WAY better card for MBC, as it can take stuff that you have trouble with, like plainswalkers and larger CC stuff.
The only thing IoK has over Duress is that you can take creatures at 3cmc and less -- how many of those present a huge problem for MBC? Seems like either running Duress main and more removal side or vice-versa would be the way to go.
4 Tectonic Edge
12 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures:
2 Vampire Hexmage
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
2 Grim Discovery
4 Sign in Blood
2 Mind Sludge
3 Consume the Meek
3 Consuming Vapors
4 Tendrils of Corruption
1 Haunting Echoes
4 Duress
2 All is Dust
4 Black Knight
4 Sadistic Sacrament
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Malakir Bloodwitch
Here's my take on MBC. Comments?
[My Decks]
Monoblack Control BBB
Extended Grixis UBR
Bruiser Tapout BU
Well, the primary reason I want to include IoK is for Thrinax. God I hate that card...
Which since the deck is based around lots of sac effects, token's kind of nerf that a lot. But I will say, the ability to get rid of a Jace on turn 1 is nice. Probably in the end I'll choose Duress, but I do like IoK a lot.
If MBC isn't going to make use of IoK, I wonder which will?
It's a meta choice. That's a crappy answer, but it's true.
If there is a lot of aggro in your meta (WW, Koros/Boros, RDW/RbDW, Allies, etc.), then IoK is better. Most decks like this curve out at 4, so IoK's drawback is irrelevant. Duress, on the other hand, will whiff too often.
If there is a lot of control or combo, then Duress is better. Black has a very tough time with Planeswalkers and Enchantments, and most of these decks run very few creatures.
If you're going to a tournament, you can reasonably expect 50%+ of the meta to be Jund and UW. Duress is obviously better in that situation. However, in less competitive environment (i.e. people that may not have $400 to spend on a killer deck), Inquisition is as good if not better.
1. You should definitely find a way to increase your actual swamp count, either by dropping a couple of the Edges or slightly decreasing the fetchland count (granted they work well with Ob Nix and GD). 15 swamps is about the lowest I would feel comfortable with. 4 Tectonic Edge probably hurts us more in the early going than it does them, so cutting it down to 2 will probably do you good.
2. There absolutely needs to be a third Mind Sludge in your maindeck - you want to see this card every game (but we obviously don't run 4 because it's horrendous in multiples). Even in matchups where it might not be all that relevant, it's still nice to have the option in game 1 to bin their entire hand on turn 5 if they get off to a rocky start. Most people would probably agree that All Is Dust is the easiest cut to facilitate another Mind Sludge. At 7 it's not really all that exciting unless you're blowing up 3 Oblivion Rings and a Planeswalker on turn 25 or something silly like that.
3. You could probably afford to diversify your sideboard a little more. I'm personally a big fan of the Black Knight + Bloodwitch overkill on white decks, but I feel like Sadistic Sacrament is a pretty awkward card that doesn't need to be a 4-of, and running 4 Duress in the main with 4 Inquisition in the SB doesn't really make sense (if you feel Duress is MD worthy then there's no need for Inquisition as the alternate - more removal is just better in that case). Consider other options like Smother/Deathmark, Suffer the Past, Pithing Needle, or Liliana Vess that might function marginally worse in the specific instances where you would want Inquisition or Sadistic Sacrament but will give you a bit more game in other areas.
4. I like the singleton surprise Haunting Echoes in the main. Any good stories to share regarding this?
Wrong. Unearth is an activated ability which is only usable from the yard and only at sorcery speed. It says <cost>: Put this onto the battlefield. You have more than enough time to react and cast suffer the past to remove it so it does not come back. The ability is put on the stack, not the card.
The best use of IoK is against Jund, where it removes Thrinax. Thrinax makes some of our best removal useless (Gatekeeper, Consuming Vapors).
A page back Scryb posted one. =]
Other than him no one else has posted any reports.
Legacy: Pox | Tiny Leaders: Thalia Hatebears
23 Swamps
2 Tectonic Edge
Creatures - 13
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Nightmare
2 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
4 Deathmark
4 Sign in Blood
3 Mind Sludge
3 Tendrils of Corruption
3 Consuming Vapors
3 Consume the Meek
2 Marsh Casualties
3 Malakir Bloodwitch
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Smother
3 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
First Match Vs. G/W/B Aura/Enchantment
First game he had a spiritdancer out fast with 2x auras on it before I drew into any removal. By the time I was at 4 mana for a Tendrils, the dancer was so far out of range. Anyways, next two games swung much greater in my favor as I was able to drop mana everyturn and always had removal handy. Won the match 2-1.
1-0
Second Match Vs. G/W Eldrazi Ramp
I had just watched this guy beat his first opponent in consecutive games and he hardcasted Emrakul...Which is just what he did against me on T7. Had two chalices out with a converted 4 mana and some temples/eyes and NO tokens. It was crazy. Second game I sided in my Sacraments and Hexmages (for the chalices) and drew into neither of them! Very frustrating games as I felt the deck was a bit janky. He ended up losing his next two matches to U/W control and so I think this one came down to my lack of practice. Lost the match 0-2.
1-1
Third Match Vs. Naya
I'm sure his deck was really good, but I was just totally unprepared and haven't played Naya in so long. It was waaaay to fast for what I was drawing into and hit 4 mana the turn before he swung in for the win. Second game, sided in the smothers alongside the deathmarks but had more mana trouble, plus his 2x KotR, BBE and pumped Scute Mob was too much by the time I could throw anything down. Lost the match 0-2.
1-2
Fourth Match Vs. Vampires
I was still reeling from the past two matches feeling pretty down so I gave up the first game to Vamps with some bad plays and more mana trouble. Took the next two games fairly easily, shouldn't of been so risky in the first game though. Won the match 2-1.
Finished 2-2 and overall I'm in love with the deck. I really enjoy the playstyle and love hitting the removal. Consuming Vapors is such a great card and I could see it going to 10-15 dollars really soon.
I do need some help with the deck though obviously. The deathmarks MB are a meta call, and I probably should have gone 3 Bloodwitch/2 Nightmare instead of the Drana as I hadn't tested her much. If she got out in games she either got removed or I was already going to win, so very early to tell on Drana...
I live in the Nor-Cal area so next Saturday is a PTQ in Santa Clara, then June there is one in Sacramento. I'd love to take this deck to the PTQ's and do some real damage but like I said, need some help. I love reading through the previous thread, and thanks to all who posted their and who have been posting on this one as well.
By the way, I had to buy yellow sleeves before the fourth match and try it out. Best looking combo ever.
My Trade Thread
I slightly modified my list, haha.
-4 Edge, +4 Swamp. After testing, I just began to hate pulling that tectonic edge. It's just frustrating to turn 5 sludge for 4.
Also on the point of sludge, I haven't had any problems getting it, but maybe I will in the future. I'll test more, and see what happens.
The Sadistic Sacraments are one of the most impressive cards against control, IMHO, since it totally removes their bomb spells.
An example of this is that I turn 3 sad sacced a B/U control player who had a deck fond of drawing with mind spring and keepings cards in hand with reliquary tower. His wincon (from a previous game), I found, was Martial Coup. I removed both coups and his tower... he scooped.
I agree on the point of IoK. I prefer duress, but I like the additional hand control early game vs heavier control decks.
And possibly my favorite Haunting Echoes story is when I was playing vs BR discard. One of every business spell was in his graveyard (at least) and i echoes. He was left with basic land.
All is dust has saved me a few times... but more testing will definitely happen.
[My Decks]
Monoblack Control BBB
Extended Grixis UBR
Bruiser Tapout BU
haha Yessssssss.
Glad you're enjoying the deck so far. And good luck at your PTQ next week.
Get as much testing in as you can.
Try out the 3 Bloodwitch / 2 Nightmare, I love it.
Legacy: Pox | Tiny Leaders: Thalia Hatebears
Any stories help. At this point I really just like the idea of people throwing stuff up against the wall and seeing what sticks. Look forward to this.
My Trade Thread
I won one round against Mythic, lost to Jund, then Chapin Control (Iona, then Jaced), lost to Esper Control because I pulled 15 lands in a row (wtf?), also lost to a U/g Summoning Trap deck before I got irritated and dropped. I didn't expect to place very high, but I didn't expect it to run this poorly after such fantastic runs previous. I would have won the Control and the Summoning Trap match ups if I had ran SadSac in my sideboard like I was planning to. I understand that it doesn't directly manipulate their hand or the board, but it shuts down combo decks and can cripple more competitive decks.
My plan is to replace IoK with Duress and try to find a place for it on the mainboard. I would like to include more targeted removal, likely in the form of Smother. I would also like to include Bloodwitch mainboard given the amount of White removal in the meta atm. It's almost like every deck that runs white is guaranteed game one. I feel like this deck needs more manipulation than removal and Mind Sludge mainboard.
Edit: forgot to mention that I'm throwing in a few fetchlands just for the free shuffle after the Esper Control debacle
It didn't make any difference really for me last night, but I wasn't going to play FNM if I didn't pick up 3x Sadistic Sacrament for my SB. In my meta (and what I expect the meta to look like a month in post-ROE), SadSac is just that important. I think your day could of at least been more competitive if they had had a chance.
I was thinking about putting one of those cards (IoK/Duress) in my SB and really to me you are right. Duress is an absolute must over IoK in my mind. It gets rid of PW's and removal which are tougher for us. We have enough creature removal that we don't need to take their creatures in their hand away IMO. Also, even in my Vamps days, Mind Sludge MB is a no-brainer. I run 3 and the card just simply works against every match up, except RDW I would guess. (Don't play much RDW in my meta.) If you have your finisher in hand or draw into it within the next two turns, Sludge is almost an I win card.
My Trade Thread
If I had SadSac, I would have completely demolished some of my opponents, but I didn't. That's my mistake and I won't be making it again.
Yeah, I had severe problems with Jace. I never saw my Pithing Needles
Definitely. Creature removal was my original reason for running IoK but it's clearly redundant.
Sludge is insane. It gets sided out against RDW though. I've been thinking of squeezing in Haunting Echoes for some hypothetical turn 5 sludge, turn 6 echoes combo.
Here's my deck:
1 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Nightmare
4 Vampire Nighthawk
Walkers
2 Liliana Vess
Spells
1 All Is Dust
2 Consume the Meek
3 Consuming Vapors
3 Mind Sludge
4 Sign in Blood
3 Smother
4 Tendrils of Corruption
2 Gargoyle Castle
23 Swamp
4 Deathmark
2 Duress
3 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Suffer the Past
3 Vampire Hexmage
I would've included at least 2 Haunting Echoes in the SB (maybe even main due to how many combo decks I played)- but sadly I couldn't get a hold of them in time.
Round 1: 2-0 vs. G/R cluster@#$%
@He, like myself, was playing in his first FNM - unfortunately for him he started playing magic that Wednesday. It wasn't pretty.
Round 2: 2-0 vs. UWg polymorph
@First game I kept killing every token he could produce - but after a few turns of tendrils/Oring he manages to morph a token from Elspeth, grabbing Iona and naming black. I play All is Dust - and watch in real time as his heart explodes. Easily the best moment of the night. Nightmare+percy get the win.
@Game two got a Mind Sludge off - but it still went back and forth, managed to stick a Liliana and tutor for my win cons to pull out the win as the clock ran down.
Round 3: 0-2 vs. open the vaults
@Game one I got a turn five Mind Sludge sending two(!) open the vaults to the yard. After the next 6 turns of land draw with no win cons, he drew another vaults, and game.
@Game two I sided in the sadsacs, duresses. He countered a turn 5 mind sludge - but wasn't able to counter the sadsac the following turn. I pull three open the vaults out of the library - and see the fourth still in there too. My win cons get hosed and he draws the remaining vaults 3 turns later. Brutal. Really missing haunting echoes here.
Round 4: 0-2 vs. Naya w/ Vengevine
@Both games, I was out too slow and crushed. After getting completely destroyed the first game (even after a turn 5 mind sludge...) I sided in the suffer the pasts hoping to stop the vengevine nuttiness but no draw. However, I made a ton of really bad misplays due to my unfamiliarity with the meta (and apparently naya in particular, #$@#$ing KoR.)
Round 5: 0-2 vs. UG polymorph
@Both games I wasn't able to get any nighthawks or gatekeepers to stick - MS countered or nonexistent, and I was presented with a dilemma. Vs. polymorph after turn 5 or 6, I wanted to tap out to play any of my win cons (due to a predictably slow start) However, sitting with tendrils in hand, if I tapped out I couldn't respond to a morph if he played it. So, game 1 I took a chance, played Vess - countered, morph and I don't draw all is dust. Game two, playing more conservatively (with the sadsacs who didn't appear) I couldn't play any win cons without jeopardizing my removal. Got ultimated by jace, ouch.
Round 6: 2-1 vs RDW
@Straightforward game 1, his creatures were dead and his hand empty.
@Game two I lost, as he drew 2x goblin guide, didn't draw a tendrils and the lone nighthawk ate a LB.
@Game three got enough smothers and tendrils to hold it down - suffer the past for 8 or so for the win.
So, discounting round 1 - I went 2-3 with little to no experience. I feel now, being a little sharper I would have fared better. Any help or tips would be appreciated.
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Duress
3x Mind Sludge
4x Suffer the Past
3x Consume the Meek
4x Howling Mines
2x Tendrils of Corruption
2x Liliana Vess
3x Nirkana Revenant
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Vampire Nighthawk
Land
21x swamps
3x techtonic edge
The close variant to this would be running consume spirit instead (or in conjunction) with suffer the past. If run as two separate decks, then I would put in more creature destruction instead of discard. What do you guys think would be better, suffer as one deck and spirit as another or complementing each other in one deck? And if separate, which one would be more competitive?
I do realize I only have 2 tendrils of corruption. Suggest what to take out for more and I probably will (same applies if you suggest putting in consuming vapors).
Also, what other cards do you guys suggest for discard? I was thinking hypnotic specter, but idk...
But I assume there are other good discard cards out there, I probably just don't know them, so suggestions there too are greatly appreciated.
So, terrible? Possible? What changes are necessary?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9733836#post9733836
First off I don't think you would need 4x Mind Sludge. I would go 3x max.
Second, if you want their hand to be empty, I don't know why you would run Howling Mine.
Third, there's a certain amount of diminishing returns with IoK, Duress and Mind Sludge. If you happen to have both and IoK and Duress in hand, one could become a dead card instantly after seeing their hand. I would favor Duress if you had more removal, which I think you should have anyways.
Fourth, not only do you not have Tendrils, but also no Consuming Vapors. This is a rising star for our deck and shouldn't be any less of a 3 of in any mono-black deck IMO.
My Trade Thread
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Duress
3x Mind Sludge
2x Suffer the Past
3x Consume Spirit
3x Consume the Meek
2x Tendrils of Corruption
2x Consuming Vapors
2x Smother
2x Liliana Vess
3x Nirkana Revenant
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Vampire Nighthawk
Land
21x swamps
3x techtonic edge
Does this help things out? But now I feel like I'm kinda removal heavy, which would be pointless again control decks but meh. Does this deck seem playable/competitive? I think the idea is there, I just worry I might not be the best person to make the competitive build for it...
Edit: Added in sign in blood, forgot about that when making build. I want 4, but at least 3, but I'm not sure what to take out for them
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9733836#post9733836