Damage dealt simultaneously is just that, simultaneous. Wurmcoil gains you the life at the same time as the damage dealt to you. Result: You survive.
Weird. Every time it came up for me at FNM (REALLY not often) it was ruled wrongly. That doesn't surprise me though. My judge likes to insist he knows things he doesn't. The other good players at my FNM take any unfair advantage they can get (including practically lying where possible.) Thanks for the info though.
Valakut: 1-2
The matchup I was dreading, and in the Finals too!! Game 1, he did his thing, and I killed what I could, but in the end, a turn 4 Titan into turn 5 Titan just destroyed me. Game 2 I did my game plan. Out with the Hexmages, Tumble Magnets, 1 BSZ, 2 SiB, 1 Gatekeeper, and 1 Titan. In with 4 Mind Rot, 3 Sad Sac, 2 Memoricide, and 1 Duress. I really need to find room for squeezing in that last Duress. I got fairly lucky, being able to Turn 1 Duress, Turn 3 Mind Rot and Turn 4 Memoricide for Titan. It still was pretty close when he topdecked a Green Sun Zenith for an Avenger, but like I said, I was running good. I top decked a Black Sun's Zenith and mopped up everything. A turn or 2 later, I was able to drop a Wurmcoil Engine, and that won me the game hands down. Game 3 I pulled off a turn 3 and turn 4 Sad Sac!! I ripped Titans, and Valakuts. He proceeded to beat me down with Baloths and Acidic Slimes backed up by a Gaea's Revenge. NOTE: Mind Rot seems to be not quite so good against the versions packing a bunch of Obstinate Baloths. I still have yet to find a way to make this matchup consistently winnable.
Congrats on a good showing.
I've found that Valakut is a lot more winnable with 4 Memoricide. Sad Sacraments would be nice, but I don't have room for them. I've really been traumatized back when I was running Sad Sacrament and I only see three titans in their deck. I always hoped that they just didn't have the fourth, but it was always in their hand, and I don't recall if there's ever been a time that they cast a titan and I win. I find that when we put them on an AP clock, Memoricide get's us there, because Primeval is the only way they can fish for the bad land. We take that away, and they have to draw a Valakut. Even if they find their other green giants, we should have removal in hand for that.
I've found that Valakut is a lot more winnable with 4 Memoricide. Sad Sacraments would be nice, but I don't have room for them. I've really been traumatized back when I was running Sad Sacrament and I only see three titans in their deck. I always hoped that they just didn't have the fourth, but it was always in their hand, and I don't recall if there's ever been a time that they cast a titan and I win. I find that when we put them on an AP clock, Memoricide get's us there, because Primeval is the only way they can fish for the bad land. We take that away, and they have to draw a Valakut. Even if they find their other green giants, we should have removal in hand for that.
Well, Sadistic Sacraments was meant to kill Eldrazi and their Valakuts. Titans are easily dealt with through Mimic Vat and a kill spell or Tumble Magnet.
Well, Sadistic Sacraments was meant to kill Eldrazi and their Valakuts. Titans are easily dealt with through Mimic Vat and a kill spell or Tumble Magnet.
I've tried getting Primeval Titan on a Mimic Vat. I get all excited cause they cast a primeval titan and I have a GftT or Doom Blade in hand, and a Mimic Vat on the ground, but I'm usually tapped out so they still get their Valakuts. I fish for tec edges next turn , but they CIPT so next turn if they harrow and/or pop khalni gardens I'm usually dead anyway.
But with early disruption and 4 Memoricide I cripple their deck so that it makes it very hard for them to race us. With only 2 Memoricide, and 3 SS, I could see lot's of times where they drew their titan early, and you don't get that last one and it kills you.
SS is definitely better against the eldrazi, but I don't play against them much online. The versions I have played lately though, seem to have less of the ramp and more fatties with summoning trap, so SS value has gone down there too. Memoricide Primeval Titan first, Summoning trap second and then hope you can stall their ramp. That would be my strategy with them.
I've tried getting Primeval Titan on a Mimic Vat. I get all excited cause they cast a primeval titan and I have a GftT or Doom Blade in hand, and a Mimic Vat on the ground, but I'm usually tapped out so they still get their Valakuts. I fish for tec edges next turn , but they CIPT so next turn if they harrow and/or pop khalni gardens I'm usually dead anyway.
But with early disruption and 4 Memoricide I cripple their deck so that it makes it very hard for them to race us. With only 2 Memoricide, and 3 SS, I could see lot's of times where they drew their titan early, and you don't get that last one and it kills you.
SS is definitely better against the eldrazi, but I don't play against them much online. The versions I have played lately though, seem to have less of the ramp and more fatties with summoning trap, so SS value has gone down there too. Memoricide Primeval Titan first, Summoning trap second and then hope you can stall their ramp. That would be my strategy with them.
Well, typically speaking, the Mimic Vat is meant to delay them. The game against Ramp is twofold: Removal to keep their big creatures from killing you and hand disruption to get rid of their Ramp. You win by outracing them, so Persecutor and Vat are pretty important. (Have at least 6 Inquisition/Duress. You really can't go wrong having multiples to stop their Ramp spells early. A Ramp deck without Ramp is a Timmy deck.)
With Sad Sac, you're supposed to grab Valakut itself anyway, not the Titans. The Titans basically don't matter after that, they're generic beaters with no protection.
With Sad Sac, you're supposed to grab Valakut itself anyway, not the Titans. The Titans basically don't matter after that, they're generic beaters with no protection.
Yeah, Primeval Titan is usually the last thing I'll take from the opponent's deck, unless I've already miraculously played 3 other Sad Sacs. O_o The order for me against Valakut is: Valakut, Avenger of Zendikar, Gaea's Revenge, Primeval Titan. Against Eldrazi: Emrakul, Ulamog, Kozilek, Artizan, Avenger of Zendikar, Gaea's Revenge, Primeval Titan.
So yeah, I played that RB Infect list last night at FNM, and went 4-1 taking 2nd. lol I wasn't expecting nearly the ease of victories. Decks I won against:
Mono Black Control (2-0)- Percy build, I taught the guy how to build it and play it.
U/W Caw Blade (2-0)- Just like I suspected, Bolt, Pyroclasm, Slagstorm are all sweet spells against them.
GW Quest Vengevine (2-1)- Tough matchup, but I think still in my favor. I simply had to mull down to Slagstorm. He would usually make a second push after the first Slagstorm, but by that time, I'd have a Doom Blade or Gofer for his Vengevine.
Valakut (2-0)- HAHA!! These games played out incredibly well for me. Game 1, he mulled to 5, and I kept a Doom Blade, Inquisition, Crusader, Crusader hand. I cleaned up handily.
Game 2, He kept a 7 lander, and began ramping up a tad. My sequence of plays. Turn 1 Inquisition, Turn 2 Doom Blade - Battlement, Turn 3 Crusader, Turn 4 Inquisition & Mind Rot, Turn 5 Phyrexian Vatmother. On turn 4, he had zero cards in hand, zero creatures on the battlefield, and 4 lands in play including 1 Valakut. That gave him exactly 2 turns to get his Primeval to take down my Crusader or Vatmother. But since his deck is 48% land, he drew 1 Explore and 2 lands.
Deck I lost to:
Vampires (1-2)- I should have had this matchup actually. Game 1 I crushed him. Game 2 he narrowly beat me. Game 3, I messed up. I skipped an attack with an Inkmoth Nexus because I knew he had a Lightning Bolt due to how he was playing the previous 2 turns in order to not lose my Inkmoth. He was at 5 Poison counters when I topdecked a Skithiryx with 7 mana open, and would have killed him if I had swung earlier. It turns out, he didn't have the Lightning Bolt, but intentionally made me think not to swing into him. The next turn, I died to 2 Kalastria Highborns.
This deck actually plays out like a control deck, eating up their hand and board, then is able to finish the opponent in 1 to 2 swings. A lot like Mono Black Control. Although, sometimes, you just need to go all in aggro against an opponent, and just count on drawing another sweeper. Changes for next week include adding 2 more Pyroclasm to the Sideboard to get my sweepers to 8 total in the 75. While removing 1 Doom Blade and 1 Crush. Hero of Bladehold also comes out for something, but I'm not sure yet, probably a Phyrexian Juggernaut.
I would highly suggest that list right now because of a couple reasons:
1. 6-8 sweepers in the 75 make aggro matchups quite easy.
2. Phyrexian Crusader just beats certain decks. Boros and CawBlade included.
3. When you are finished controlling the opponent, and can attack, the clock is much shorter than MBC. You usually finish the game with a pair of attacks for 5+ poison damage.
So yeah, I played that RB Infect list last night at FNM, and went 4-1 taking 2nd. lol I wasn't expecting nearly the ease of victories. Decks I won against:
Mono Black Control (2-0)- Percy build, I taught the guy how to build it and play it.
U/W Caw Blade (2-0)- Just like I suspected, Bolt, Pyroclasm, Slagstorm are all sweet spells against them.
GW Quest Vengevine (2-1)- Tough matchup, but I think still in my favor. I simply had to mull down to Slagstorm. He would usually make a second push after the first Slagstorm, but by that time, I'd have a Doom Blade or Gofer for his Vengevine.
Valakut (2-0)- HAHA!! These games played out incredibly well for me. Game 1, he mulled to 5, and I kept a Doom Blade, Inquisition, Crusader, Crusader hand. I cleaned up handily.
Game 2, He kept a 7 lander, and began ramping up a tad. My sequence of plays. Turn 1 Inquisition, Turn 2 Doom Blade - Battlement, Turn 3 Crusader, Turn 4 Inquisition & Mind Rot, Turn 5 Phyrexian Vatmother. On turn 4, he had zero cards in hand, zero creatures on the battlefield, and 4 lands in play including 1 Valakut. That gave him exactly 2 turns to get his Primeval to take down my Crusader or Vatmother. But since his deck is 48% land, he drew 1 Explore and 2 lands.
Deck I lost to:
Vampires (1-2)- I should have had this matchup actually. Game 1 I crushed him. Game 2 he narrowly beat me. Game 3, I messed up. I skipped an attack with an Inkmoth Nexus because I knew he had a Lightning Bolt due to how he was playing the previous 2 turns in order to not lose my Inkmoth. He was at 5 Poison counters when I topdecked a Skithiryx with 7 mana open, and would have killed him if I had swung earlier. It turns out, he didn't have the Lightning Bolt, but intentionally made me think not to swing into him. The next turn, I died to 2 Kalastria Highborns.
This deck actually plays out like a control deck, eating up their hand and board, then is able to finish the opponent in 1 to 2 swings. A lot like Mono Black Control. Although, sometimes, you just need to go all in aggro against an opponent, and just count on drawing another sweeper. Changes for next week include adding 2 more Pyroclasm to the Sideboard to get my sweepers to 8 total in the 75. While removing 1 Doom Blade and 1 Crush. Hero of Bladehold also comes out for something, but I'm not sure yet, probably a Phyrexian Juggernaut.
I would highly suggest that list right now because of a couple reasons:
1. 6-8 sweepers in the 75 make aggro matchups quite easy.
2. Phyrexian Crusader just beats certain decks. Boros and CawBlade included.
3. When you are finished controlling the opponent, and can attack, the clock is much shorter than MBC. You usually finish the game with a pair of attacks for 5+ poison damage.
A lot of similarities to MBC.
Do you feel that the addition of red is worth it? Mono-black infect can use Black Sun's Zenith for mass removal, and I doubt you'll be using Bolts to burn the opponent directly, so Doom Blade, GftT, and Disfig have the same purpose as Bolt.
EDIT:
But if you're sticking to red, have you considered Flame Slash as creature removal in place of Lightning Bolt?
Yeah, Primeval Titan is usually the last thing I'll take from the opponent's deck, unless I've already miraculously played 3 other Sad Sacs. O_o The order for me against Valakut is: Valakut, Avenger of Zendikar, Gaea's Revenge, Primeval Titan. Against Eldrazi: Emrakul, Ulamog, Kozilek, Artizan, Avenger of Zendikar, Gaea's Revenge, Primeval Titan.
So yeah, I played that RB Infect list last night at FNM, and went 4-1 taking 2nd. lol I wasn't expecting nearly the ease of victories. Decks I won against:
Mono Black Control (2-0)- Percy build, I taught the guy how to build it and play it.
U/W Caw Blade (2-0)- Just like I suspected, Bolt, Pyroclasm, Slagstorm are all sweet spells against them.
GW Quest Vengevine (2-1)- Tough matchup, but I think still in my favor. I simply had to mull down to Slagstorm. He would usually make a second push after the first Slagstorm, but by that time, I'd have a Doom Blade or Gofer for his Vengevine.
Valakut (2-0)- HAHA!! These games played out incredibly well for me. Game 1, he mulled to 5, and I kept a Doom Blade, Inquisition, Crusader, Crusader hand. I cleaned up handily.
Game 2, He kept a 7 lander, and began ramping up a tad. My sequence of plays. Turn 1 Inquisition, Turn 2 Doom Blade - Battlement, Turn 3 Crusader, Turn 4 Inquisition & Mind Rot, Turn 5 Phyrexian Vatmother. On turn 4, he had zero cards in hand, zero creatures on the battlefield, and 4 lands in play including 1 Valakut. That gave him exactly 2 turns to get his Primeval to take down my Crusader or Vatmother. But since his deck is 48% land, he drew 1 Explore and 2 lands.
Deck I lost to:
Vampires (1-2)- I should have had this matchup actually. Game 1 I crushed him. Game 2 he narrowly beat me. Game 3, I messed up. I skipped an attack with an Inkmoth Nexus because I knew he had a Lightning Bolt due to how he was playing the previous 2 turns in order to not lose my Inkmoth. He was at 5 Poison counters when I topdecked a Skithiryx with 7 mana open, and would have killed him if I had swung earlier. It turns out, he didn't have the Lightning Bolt, but intentionally made me think not to swing into him. The next turn, I died to 2 Kalastria Highborns.
This deck actually plays out like a control deck, eating up their hand and board, then is able to finish the opponent in 1 to 2 swings. A lot like Mono Black Control. Although, sometimes, you just need to go all in aggro against an opponent, and just count on drawing another sweeper. Changes for next week include adding 2 more Pyroclasm to the Sideboard to get my sweepers to 8 total in the 75. While removing 1 Doom Blade and 1 Crush. Hero of Bladehold also comes out for something, but I'm not sure yet, probably a Phyrexian Juggernaut.
I would highly suggest that list right now because of a couple reasons:
1. 6-8 sweepers in the 75 make aggro matchups quite easy.
2. Phyrexian Crusader just beats certain decks. Boros and CawBlade included.
3. When you are finished controlling the opponent, and can attack, the clock is much shorter than MBC. You usually finish the game with a pair of attacks for 5+ poison damage.
A lot of similarities to MBC.
bout ur BR infect, why would not transform it on a mono black mid range?
this one tho, would take a little strategy to not get sweeped out with ur own resources, so, the idea pretty much would be depleting the opponent early hand and battlefield, and then go for the win, supported with target kill spells,.. dunno if the idea of playing BR was to send pyroclasm and slagstorm and that ur crusaders wouldnt be affected at all (im saying iunno coz which i know is, global spells sweep out everything, protection or not, but maybe im wrong and crusader can stand intact after some global red dmg spell..noob me..). Even tho, vatmother and dragon can stand after a consume the meek, and well.. zenith would always clear the board if desired, but the ability to control what is gonna be cleared is the advantage.. well, this has been discused a lot after all, u all should know it by now.
sideboard should be thought after some playtest, but something like this could addapt to the MB idea...
Do you feel that the addition of red is worth it? Mono-black infect can use Black Sun's Zenith for mass removal, and I doubt you'll be using Bolts to burn the opponent directly, so Doom Blade, GftT, and Disfig have the same purpose as Bolt.
i was writing exactly this while u posted hehe ..
btw...
i've been thinking on a totally diferent way of MB, which takes a similar direction on what TEZZ decks does, but just with artifacts, and black spells to support it.. its all about imagination after all, why not give it a try?..ill test it against some aggro and control decks and if i have the time, post results later.. even if its just crap, it'd give me some ideas to improve then the MBC i own, for my specific meta.. to get the perfect balance between controlish spells, which ones.. and iunno, the best way to finish the opponent..
Has anyone tried out Painful Quandary? There are no other 5 drops to speak of in MBC's arsenal apart from Liliana Vess, who is generally a very average card, despite tutoring what you need vs aggro and continued discard vs control
Using Ob Nixilis for my 5 drop as he can win games by hiself with sac lands and grim discovery.
Also shade is a boss and mind sludge wrecks caw-blade when they tap out for jace/gideon
Yeah, Primeval Titan is usually the last thing I'll take from the opponent's deck, unless I've already miraculously played 3 other Sad Sacs. O_o The order for me against Valakut is: Valakut, Avenger of Zendikar, Gaea's Revenge, Primeval Titan. Against Eldrazi: Emrakul, Ulamog, Kozilek, Artizan, Avenger of Zendikar, Gaea's Revenge, Primeval Titan.
So yeah, I played that RB Infect list last night at FNM, and went 4-1 taking 2nd. lol I wasn't expecting nearly the ease of victories. Decks I won against:
Mono Black Control (2-0)- Percy build, I taught the guy how to build it and play it.
U/W Caw Blade (2-0)- Just like I suspected, Bolt, Pyroclasm, Slagstorm are all sweet spells against them.
GW Quest Vengevine (2-1)- Tough matchup, but I think still in my favor. I simply had to mull down to Slagstorm. He would usually make a second push after the first Slagstorm, but by that time, I'd have a Doom Blade or Gofer for his Vengevine.
Valakut (2-0)- HAHA!! These games played out incredibly well for me. Game 1, he mulled to 5, and I kept a Doom Blade, Inquisition, Crusader, Crusader hand. I cleaned up handily.
Game 2, He kept a 7 lander, and began ramping up a tad. My sequence of plays. Turn 1 Inquisition, Turn 2 Doom Blade - Battlement, Turn 3 Crusader, Turn 4 Inquisition & Mind Rot, Turn 5 Phyrexian Vatmother. On turn 4, he had zero cards in hand, zero creatures on the battlefield, and 4 lands in play including 1 Valakut. That gave him exactly 2 turns to get his Primeval to take down my Crusader or Vatmother. But since his deck is 48% land, he drew 1 Explore and 2 lands.
Deck I lost to:
Vampires (1-2)- I should have had this matchup actually. Game 1 I crushed him. Game 2 he narrowly beat me. Game 3, I messed up. I skipped an attack with an Inkmoth Nexus because I knew he had a Lightning Bolt due to how he was playing the previous 2 turns in order to not lose my Inkmoth. He was at 5 Poison counters when I topdecked a Skithiryx with 7 mana open, and would have killed him if I had swung earlier. It turns out, he didn't have the Lightning Bolt, but intentionally made me think not to swing into him. The next turn, I died to 2 Kalastria Highborns.
This deck actually plays out like a control deck, eating up their hand and board, then is able to finish the opponent in 1 to 2 swings. A lot like Mono Black Control. Although, sometimes, you just need to go all in aggro against an opponent, and just count on drawing another sweeper. Changes for next week include adding 2 more Pyroclasm to the Sideboard to get my sweepers to 8 total in the 75. While removing 1 Doom Blade and 1 Crush. Hero of Bladehold also comes out for something, but I'm not sure yet, probably a Phyrexian Juggernaut.
I would highly suggest that list right now because of a couple reasons:
1. 6-8 sweepers in the 75 make aggro matchups quite easy.
2. Phyrexian Crusader just beats certain decks. Boros and CawBlade included.
3. When you are finished controlling the opponent, and can attack, the clock is much shorter than MBC. You usually finish the game with a pair of attacks for 5+ poison damage.
A lot of similarities to MBC.
Nice R/B list. Do you think assault strobe in the board would have surprised some opponents? Seems like double strike on infect could just end games...in theory.
I really like the idea of playing MBC right now except for one thing....Sword of Feast and Famine. What do we do against an active Sword? Is tumble magnet our only out other than hoping you nail it with early discard? Seems weak since caw blade is everywhere and the first thing they will go for with a mystic is the sword. I wonder if Mystifying Maze would be a worthwhile x2. I'm also surprised to see no one playing mind sludge. Sorry for the random thoughts.;)
Against decks running "Swords"... do you Duress/Inquisition of Kozilek turn 1 ? or you wait for them to drop a Stoneforge Mystic and go discard the sword on your next turn. That way you get rid of the sword, if you play discard turn 1 and go for the Mystic, he can always draw the sword or fetch it again with another Mystic...
Thing is, if they have 5 mana, they can drop Mystic then sword and you can't do anything... But! I don't think your opponent is going to fear a discard spell and wait for turn 5 to play his Mystic, that's just ridiculous...
Against decks running "Swords"... do you Duress/Inquisition of Kozilek turn 1 ? or you wait for them to drop a Stoneforge Mystic and go discard the sword on your next turn. That way you get rid of the sword, if you play discard turn 1 and go for the Mystic, he can always draw the sword or fetch it again with another Mystic...
Thing is, if they have 5 mana, they can drop Mystic then sword and you can't do anything... But! I don't think your opponent is going to fear a discard spell and wait for turn 5 to play his Mystic, that's just ridiculous...
Not sure what the right play is...
Really depends if I have another IoK or Duress in opening hand. What if they have both a sword AND a Mystic? Also, I'd rather wait till they play Mystic cause then you're sure of what they are going to have in hand, unless of course they have enough mana to cast it right away, but that would only be turn 5 in which case you have an edge
Asking out a girl is like trying to cast a first turn Necropotence. Sometimes the other player will have the Force of Will to say no. You shouldn't let that stop you from trying it.
Really depends if I have another IoK or Duress in opening hand. What if they have both a sword AND a Mystic? Also, I'd rather wait till they play Mystic cause then you're sure of what they are going to have in hand, unless of course they have enough mana to cast it right away, but that would only be turn 5 in which case you have an edge
Yeah if you get rid of the right sword, you're in business, they usually run only 1.
Asking out a girl is like trying to cast a first turn Necropotence. Sometimes the other player will have the Force of Will to say no. You shouldn't let that stop you from trying it.
Has anyone tried out Painful Quandary? There are no other 5 drops to speak of in MBC's arsenal apart from Liliana Vess, who is generally a very average card, despite tutoring what you need vs aggro and continued discard vs control
Wrong, ur missing my fav turn 5 slot card, Mind Sludge.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“And if at first you don't succeed / Then dust yourself off and try again / You can dust it off and try again, try again.”
:symw::symb:Steel Wb Weenie
this one tho, would take a little strategy to not get sweeped out with ur own resources, so, the idea pretty much would be depleting the opponent early hand and battlefield, and then go for the win, supported with target kill spells,.. dunno if the idea of playing BR was to send pyroclasm and slagstorm and that ur crusaders wouldnt be affected at all (im saying iunno coz which i know is, global spells sweep out everything, protection or not, but maybe im wrong and crusader can stand intact after some global red dmg spell..noob me..). Even tho, vatmother and dragon can stand after a consume the meek, and well.. zenith would always clear the board if desired, but the ability to control what is gonna be cleared is the advantage.. well, this has been discused a lot after all, u all should know it by now.
The plan was absolutely about Sweeping while keeping my own guys. That was the part that I forgot to write about. I realized, when playing my MonoBlack Infect deck, that Valakut and other Red based control decks would have difficulties dealing with Vatmother, Skithiryx, and most importantly, Crusader. I playing Valakut one game, and Inquisitioned him and noticed Slagstorm and Pyroclasm in his hand while I had 2 Crusaders on the field. I still took the Slagstorm simply because it could burn my face. But that was the entire inspiration for the deck!
Black Sun's Zenith is awesome in a controllish deck with few creatures, but being able to sweep the board without worry of your own creatures dying is just sweet. Against GW Vengevine Quest, I had a Crusader on the Field, and swept the board with Slagstorm twice in the same game, killing a total of 2 Vengevines, 2 Memnites, a Kor Skyfisher, an Ornithopter, and 2 Glint Hawks. All the while, my little Crusader just kept pounding away.
Actually, that Mono Black Infect deck is incredibly close to what I came up with originally, but it was too weak in dealing with Valakut.
Do you feel that the addition of red is worth it? Mono-black infect can use Black Sun's Zenith for mass removal, and I doubt you'll be using Bolts to burn the opponent directly, so Doom Blade, GftT, and Disfig have the same purpose as Bolt.
EDIT:
But if you're sticking to red, have you considered Flame Slash as creature removal in place of Lightning Bolt?
The red is so important in my deck, that I was actually able to kill the Vampire player with burn in one game. With Dark Tutelage out, burn absolutely becomes a win condition. I have actually been considering a transformational sideboard to just burn out certain opponents. Like Valakut, or Vampires. And against Caw-Blade, burn might work as well. 4 Goblin Guide, 4 Seering Blaze, 4 Burst Lightning, 2 Mountains and another Lavaclaw Reaches might just be the ticket against those decks. We've all seen how well Mono Red beats up on Caw-Blade and Valakut.
I did consider Flame Slash, but losing the ability to hit the player reduces its quality in the deck.
Nice R/B list. Do you think assault strobe in the board would have surprised some opponents? Seems like double strike on infect could just end games...in theory.
I really like the idea of playing MBC right now except for one thing....Sword of Feast and Famine. What do we do against an active Sword? Is tumble magnet our only out other than hoping you nail it with early discard? Seems weak since caw blade is everywhere and the first thing they will go for with a mystic is the sword. I wonder if Mystifying Maze would be a worthwhile x2. I'm also surprised to see no one playing mind sludge. Sorry for the random thoughts.;)
Although the RB list has 15 creatures in it, it really isn't an aggro. I wanted desperately to play pumps, but it simply doesn't fit the playstyle of the deck. My thought process: If my opponent is at 0 poison counters, Phyrexian Crusader is on the board, and the opponent has a creature on the board as well. Would I rather have Assault Strobe or Slagstorm or Pyroclasm, or Doom Blade, or Inquisition, or any other spell in my 75?
As for MBC...
Sword of Feast and Famine is why MBC should be playing 4x Black Sun's Zenith along with 4x Inquisition and 1 or 2x Duress, and 6-8 Gofer/Doom Blade. Tumble Magnet works just fine against the swords in the mean time, and is why my Mono Black list runs 2 of them.
And for those of you bringing up Hammer of Ruin...
STOP. There is no reason for us to be playing bad equipment in a deck that has no way to search up equipment in a reasonable time frame. Turn 4 is not reasonable. Bad equipment is still bad, no matter what other equipment is being played in the meta. If you're going to run equipment, run 3-4 of the swords favoring Feast and Famine. Bonehoard is defensible as a 1 of because it is a creature.
And for those of you bringing up Hammer of Ruin...
STOP. There is no reason for us to be playing bad equipment in a deck that has no way to search up equipment in a reasonable time frame. Turn 4 is not reasonable. Bad equipment is still bad, no matter what other equipment is being played in the meta. If you're going to run equipment, run 3-4 of the swords favoring Feast and Famine. Bonehoard is defensible as a 1 of because it is a creature.
No way I'd ever consider Hammer of Ruin seriously. What I am considering seriously is your BR infect build. I really like these synergies:
- All your creatures save Necropede survive any of your sweepers
- Necropede enables killing stuff with 3 toughness after pyroclasm, and 4 toughness with Slag
- Hero of Oxid Ridge in an infect deck? ... Brilliant! Giving psuedo-evasion and pump to my infect guys, insane. The pay-off is so much better in infect than with regular damage-dealers.
But I have a few questions,
2 Sign in Blood
1 Dark Tutelage
I'd maybe consider 3 SiB instead, just because the loss of life is controlled, but I want to know what you think about that? Also, what does the sideboarding look like?
Asking out a girl is like trying to cast a first turn Necropotence. Sometimes the other player will have the Force of Will to say no. You shouldn't let that stop you from trying it.
Has anyone tried out Painful Quandary? There are no other 5 drops to speak of in MBC's arsenal apart from Liliana Vess, who is generally a very average card, despite tutoring what you need vs aggro and continued discard vs control
I think it's a decent sideboard card against aggro (siding out Mind Sludge). Wait for them to over-extend, board sweep, then drop a Painful Quandary and laugh as they try to work around it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I leave my account logged on in other people's computers. This is a result of that.
I feel that this thread should stick to MBC, if you want to talk about R/B Control there is a thread, if you want to talk about infect, there are several threads.
I agree about the whole staying on topic thing. It is a Mono Black Control thread. I just figured that since the deck played a lot like Mono Black Control, that people would like to see how it did. That said, here's my last post about it in this thread.
No way I'd ever consider Hammer of Ruin seriously. What I am considering seriously is your BR infect build. I really like these synergies:
- All your creatures save Necropede survive any of your sweepers
- Necropede enables killing stuff with 3 toughness after pyroclasm, and 4 toughness with Slag
- Hero of Oxid Ridge in an infect deck? ... Brilliant! Giving psuedo-evasion and pump to my infect guys, insane. The pay-off is so much better in infect than with regular damage-dealers.
But I have a few questions,
2 Sign in Blood
1 Dark Tutelage
I'd maybe consider 3 SiB instead, just because the loss of life is controlled, but I want to know what you think about that? Also, what does the sideboarding look like?
Okay good. I thought the whole Hammer of Ruin conversation was a joke. Whew, that's a load off.
I had the exact same thought about Dark Tutelage, and actually switched it back at the last second to 3x Sign in Blood.
You like the whole Necropede plan huh? Yeah, I liked the idea of being able to kill bigger guys with him too.
I'm glad someone else likes the idea of Hero of Oxid Ridge. He is actually questionable in my mind right now. I need more games with the deck to find out if he is actually helpful. Though, when I beat Vamps with damage, he was a key part of that.
Sideboarding. Well, that is a good question, now that my sideboard has changed. I honestly never needed Crush, even against Caw-Blade. So that might be coming out completely. I never really had room to bring in the 4th Duress either, but it worked out just fine. I'm also adding 2 more Pyroclasm. Oh, and I played it without the Tectonic Edge, and never missed them either.
Caw Blade
-4 Necropede
-1 Hero of Oxid Ridge
-1 Sign in Blood
-1 Go For the Throat
+2 Pyroclasm
+3 Duress
+2 Mind Rot or +2 Doom Blade (still deciding)
I agree about the whole staying on topic thing. It is a Mono Black Control thread. I just figured that since the deck played a lot like Mono Black Control, that people would like to see how it did. That said, here's my last post about it in this thread.
Okay good. I thought the whole Hammer of Ruin conversation was a joke. Whew, that's a load off.
I had the exact same thought about Dark Tutelage, and actually switched it back at the last second to 3x Sign in Blood.
You like the whole Necropede plan huh? Yeah, I liked the idea of being able to kill bigger guys with him too.
I'm glad someone else likes the idea of Hero of Oxid Ridge. He is actually questionable in my mind right now. I need more games with the deck to find out if he is actually helpful. Though, when I beat Vamps with damage, he was a key part of that.
Sideboarding. Well, that is a good question, now that my sideboard has changed. I honestly never needed Crush, even against Caw-Blade. So that might be coming out completely. I never really had room to bring in the 4th Duress either, but it worked out just fine. I'm also adding 2 more Pyroclasm. Oh, and I played it without the Tectonic Edge, and never missed them either.
Caw Blade
-4 Necropede
-1 Hero of Oxid Ridge
-1 Sign in Blood
-1 Go For the Throat
+2 Pyroclasm
+3 Duress
+2 Mind Rot or +2 Doom Blade (still deciding)
Bottom line is, MBC doesn't play very similarly to anything except MBC unless it's mono black and controls, in which case it's mono black control..
I like this idea. I've found Mind Sludge very dead in the aggro MU and Quandary switches in easily on the curve and punishes them for the same reasons Sludge doesn't. I can see 2BB BSZ into Quandary making Red look a bit uncomfortable, to say the least.
I'm considering 4 BSZ in the main, thoughts anyone?
Never 4, use 3 at the most. Even against aggro you usually only need to draw 1 with the other removal/control cards in the deck
Weird. Every time it came up for me at FNM (REALLY not often) it was ruled wrongly. That doesn't surprise me though. My judge likes to insist he knows things he doesn't. The other good players at my FNM take any unfair advantage they can get (including practically lying where possible.) Thanks for the info though.
Regardless, rather have the Grave Titan.
Congrats on a good showing.
I've found that Valakut is a lot more winnable with 4 Memoricide. Sad Sacraments would be nice, but I don't have room for them. I've really been traumatized back when I was running Sad Sacrament and I only see three titans in their deck. I always hoped that they just didn't have the fourth, but it was always in their hand, and I don't recall if there's ever been a time that they cast a titan and I win. I find that when we put them on an AP clock, Memoricide get's us there, because Primeval is the only way they can fish for the bad land. We take that away, and they have to draw a Valakut. Even if they find their other green giants, we should have removal in hand for that.
Well, Sadistic Sacraments was meant to kill Eldrazi and their Valakuts. Titans are easily dealt with through Mimic Vat and a kill spell or Tumble Magnet.
I've tried getting Primeval Titan on a Mimic Vat. I get all excited cause they cast a primeval titan and I have a GftT or Doom Blade in hand, and a Mimic Vat on the ground, but I'm usually tapped out so they still get their Valakuts. I fish for tec edges next turn , but they CIPT so next turn if they harrow and/or pop khalni gardens I'm usually dead anyway.
But with early disruption and 4 Memoricide I cripple their deck so that it makes it very hard for them to race us. With only 2 Memoricide, and 3 SS, I could see lot's of times where they drew their titan early, and you don't get that last one and it kills you.
SS is definitely better against the eldrazi, but I don't play against them much online. The versions I have played lately though, seem to have less of the ramp and more fatties with summoning trap, so SS value has gone down there too. Memoricide Primeval Titan first, Summoning trap second and then hope you can stall their ramp. That would be my strategy with them.
Well, typically speaking, the Mimic Vat is meant to delay them. The game against Ramp is twofold: Removal to keep their big creatures from killing you and hand disruption to get rid of their Ramp. You win by outracing them, so Persecutor and Vat are pretty important. (Have at least 6 Inquisition/Duress. You really can't go wrong having multiples to stop their Ramp spells early. A Ramp deck without Ramp is a Timmy deck.)
21 Swamps
4 Tectonic Edge
Creatures(14)
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Vampire Hexmage
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Grave Titan
Spells(19)
2 Go For The Throat
2 Disfigure
2 Doom Blade
2 Consuming Vapors
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
2 Mindsludge
3 Sign in Blood
2 Mimic Vat
3 Ratchetbomb
3 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Memoricide
2 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Doom Blade
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Mimic Vat
1 Disfigure
BMBCB
Pretty much. That and the odd Eldrazi deck.
So yeah, I played that RB Infect list last night at FNM, and went 4-1 taking 2nd. lol I wasn't expecting nearly the ease of victories. Decks I won against:
U/W Caw Blade (2-0)- Just like I suspected, Bolt, Pyroclasm, Slagstorm are all sweet spells against them.
GW Quest Vengevine (2-1)- Tough matchup, but I think still in my favor. I simply had to mull down to Slagstorm. He would usually make a second push after the first Slagstorm, but by that time, I'd have a Doom Blade or Gofer for his Vengevine.
Valakut (2-0)- HAHA!! These games played out incredibly well for me. Game 1, he mulled to 5, and I kept a Doom Blade, Inquisition, Crusader, Crusader hand. I cleaned up handily.
Game 2, He kept a 7 lander, and began ramping up a tad. My sequence of plays. Turn 1 Inquisition, Turn 2 Doom Blade - Battlement, Turn 3 Crusader, Turn 4 Inquisition & Mind Rot, Turn 5 Phyrexian Vatmother. On turn 4, he had zero cards in hand, zero creatures on the battlefield, and 4 lands in play including 1 Valakut. That gave him exactly 2 turns to get his Primeval to take down my Crusader or Vatmother. But since his deck is 48% land, he drew 1 Explore and 2 lands.
Deck I lost to:
Vampires (1-2)- I should have had this matchup actually. Game 1 I crushed him. Game 2 he narrowly beat me. Game 3, I messed up. I skipped an attack with an Inkmoth Nexus because I knew he had a Lightning Bolt due to how he was playing the previous 2 turns in order to not lose my Inkmoth. He was at 5 Poison counters when I topdecked a Skithiryx with 7 mana open, and would have killed him if I had swung earlier. It turns out, he didn't have the Lightning Bolt, but intentionally made me think not to swing into him. The next turn, I died to 2 Kalastria Highborns.
This deck actually plays out like a control deck, eating up their hand and board, then is able to finish the opponent in 1 to 2 swings. A lot like Mono Black Control. Although, sometimes, you just need to go all in aggro against an opponent, and just count on drawing another sweeper. Changes for next week include adding 2 more Pyroclasm to the Sideboard to get my sweepers to 8 total in the 75. While removing 1 Doom Blade and 1 Crush. Hero of Bladehold also comes out for something, but I'm not sure yet, probably a Phyrexian Juggernaut.
I would highly suggest that list right now because of a couple reasons:
1. 6-8 sweepers in the 75 make aggro matchups quite easy.
2. Phyrexian Crusader just beats certain decks. Boros and CawBlade included.
3. When you are finished controlling the opponent, and can attack, the clock is much shorter than MBC. You usually finish the game with a pair of attacks for 5+ poison damage.
A lot of similarities to MBC.
Do you feel that the addition of red is worth it? Mono-black infect can use Black Sun's Zenith for mass removal, and I doubt you'll be using Bolts to burn the opponent directly, so Doom Blade, GftT, and Disfig have the same purpose as Bolt.
EDIT:
But if you're sticking to red, have you considered Flame Slash as creature removal in place of Lightning Bolt?
bout ur BR infect, why would not transform it on a mono black mid range?
ur BR deck
Land: 24
4x Inkmoth Nexus
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
4x Dragonskull Summit
3x Lavaclaw Reaches
7x Swamp
2x Tectonic Edge
Spells: 21
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Pyroclasm
2x Sign in Blood
1x Dark Tutelage
4x Go for the Throat
4x Slagstorm
4x Necropede
4x Phyrexian Crusader
4x Phyrexian Vatmother
1x Hero of Oxid Ridge
2x Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
4x Crush
3x Doom Blade
4x Duress
4x Mind Rot
the MB version:
20x Swamp
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x duress
4x Sign in Blood
3x doom blade
3x Go for the Throat
3x black sun zenith
3x consume the meek
4x Phyrexian Crusader
4x Phyrexian Vatmother
2x Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
this one tho, would take a little strategy to not get sweeped out with ur own resources, so, the idea pretty much would be depleting the opponent early hand and battlefield, and then go for the win, supported with target kill spells,.. dunno if the idea of playing BR was to send pyroclasm and slagstorm and that ur crusaders wouldnt be affected at all (im saying iunno coz which i know is, global spells sweep out everything, protection or not, but maybe im wrong and crusader can stand intact after some global red dmg spell..noob me..). Even tho, vatmother and dragon can stand after a consume the meek, and well.. zenith would always clear the board if desired, but the ability to control what is gonna be cleared is the advantage.. well, this has been discused a lot after all, u all should know it by now.
sideboard should be thought after some playtest, but something like this could addapt to the MB idea...
edit:
i was writing exactly this while u posted hehe ..
btw...
i've been thinking on a totally diferent way of MB, which takes a similar direction on what TEZZ decks does, but just with artifacts, and black spells to support it.. its all about imagination after all, why not give it a try?..ill test it against some aggro and control decks and if i have the time, post results later.. even if its just crap, it'd give me some ideas to improve then the MBC i own, for my specific meta.. to get the perfect balance between controlish spells, which ones.. and iunno, the best way to finish the opponent..
Using Ob Nixilis for my 5 drop as he can win games by hiself with sac lands and grim discovery.
Also shade is a boss and mind sludge wrecks caw-blade when they tap out for jace/gideon
17x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Tectonic Edge
Creatures
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Nantuko Shade
3x Vampire Hexmage
2x Ob Nixilis, The Fallen
2x Grave Titan
4x Doom Blade
4x Sign in Blood
3x Mind Sludge
3x Black Sun's Zenith
2x Grim Discovery
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Duress
:symg::symu:
Valakut Aggro
:symr::symg:
Nice R/B list. Do you think assault strobe in the board would have surprised some opponents? Seems like double strike on infect could just end games...in theory.
I really like the idea of playing MBC right now except for one thing....Sword of Feast and Famine. What do we do against an active Sword? Is tumble magnet our only out other than hoping you nail it with early discard? Seems weak since caw blade is everywhere and the first thing they will go for with a mystic is the sword. I wonder if Mystifying Maze would be a worthwhile x2. I'm also surprised to see no one playing mind sludge. Sorry for the random thoughts.;)
Thing is, if they have 5 mana, they can drop Mystic then sword and you can't do anything... But! I don't think your opponent is going to fear a discard spell and wait for turn 5 to play his Mystic, that's just ridiculous...
Not sure what the right play is...
Really depends if I have another IoK or Duress in opening hand. What if they have both a sword AND a Mystic? Also, I'd rather wait till they play Mystic cause then you're sure of what they are going to have in hand, unless of course they have enough mana to cast it right away, but that would only be turn 5 in which case you have an edge
WUBRG
Yeah if you get rid of the right sword, you're in business, they usually run only 1.
But it's the ☺☺☺☺tiest equipment of all time, except maybe Razor Boomerang
WUBRG
Wrong, ur missing my fav turn 5 slot card, Mind Sludge.
:symw::symb:Steel Wb Weenie
The plan was absolutely about Sweeping while keeping my own guys. That was the part that I forgot to write about. I realized, when playing my MonoBlack Infect deck, that Valakut and other Red based control decks would have difficulties dealing with Vatmother, Skithiryx, and most importantly, Crusader. I playing Valakut one game, and Inquisitioned him and noticed Slagstorm and Pyroclasm in his hand while I had 2 Crusaders on the field. I still took the Slagstorm simply because it could burn my face. But that was the entire inspiration for the deck!
Black Sun's Zenith is awesome in a controllish deck with few creatures, but being able to sweep the board without worry of your own creatures dying is just sweet. Against GW Vengevine Quest, I had a Crusader on the Field, and swept the board with Slagstorm twice in the same game, killing a total of 2 Vengevines, 2 Memnites, a Kor Skyfisher, an Ornithopter, and 2 Glint Hawks. All the while, my little Crusader just kept pounding away.
Actually, that Mono Black Infect deck is incredibly close to what I came up with originally, but it was too weak in dealing with Valakut.
The red is so important in my deck, that I was actually able to kill the Vampire player with burn in one game. With Dark Tutelage out, burn absolutely becomes a win condition. I have actually been considering a transformational sideboard to just burn out certain opponents. Like Valakut, or Vampires. And against Caw-Blade, burn might work as well. 4 Goblin Guide, 4 Seering Blaze, 4 Burst Lightning, 2 Mountains and another Lavaclaw Reaches might just be the ticket against those decks. We've all seen how well Mono Red beats up on Caw-Blade and Valakut.
I did consider Flame Slash, but losing the ability to hit the player reduces its quality in the deck.
Although the RB list has 15 creatures in it, it really isn't an aggro. I wanted desperately to play pumps, but it simply doesn't fit the playstyle of the deck. My thought process: If my opponent is at 0 poison counters, Phyrexian Crusader is on the board, and the opponent has a creature on the board as well. Would I rather have Assault Strobe or Slagstorm or Pyroclasm, or Doom Blade, or Inquisition, or any other spell in my 75?
As for MBC...
Sword of Feast and Famine is why MBC should be playing 4x Black Sun's Zenith along with 4x Inquisition and 1 or 2x Duress, and 6-8 Gofer/Doom Blade. Tumble Magnet works just fine against the swords in the mean time, and is why my Mono Black list runs 2 of them.
And for those of you bringing up Hammer of Ruin...
STOP. There is no reason for us to be playing bad equipment in a deck that has no way to search up equipment in a reasonable time frame. Turn 4 is not reasonable. Bad equipment is still bad, no matter what other equipment is being played in the meta. If you're going to run equipment, run 3-4 of the swords favoring Feast and Famine. Bonehoard is defensible as a 1 of because it is a creature.
No way I'd ever consider Hammer of Ruin seriously. What I am considering seriously is your BR infect build. I really like these synergies:
- All your creatures save Necropede survive any of your sweepers
- Necropede enables killing stuff with 3 toughness after pyroclasm, and 4 toughness with Slag
- Hero of Oxid Ridge in an infect deck? ... Brilliant! Giving psuedo-evasion and pump to my infect guys, insane. The pay-off is so much better in infect than with regular damage-dealers.
But I have a few questions,
2 Sign in Blood
1 Dark Tutelage
I'd maybe consider 3 SiB instead, just because the loss of life is controlled, but I want to know what you think about that? Also, what does the sideboarding look like?
WUBRG
I think it's a decent sideboard card against aggro (siding out Mind Sludge). Wait for them to over-extend, board sweep, then drop a Painful Quandary and laugh as they try to work around it.
Okay good. I thought the whole Hammer of Ruin conversation was a joke. Whew, that's a load off.
I had the exact same thought about Dark Tutelage, and actually switched it back at the last second to 3x Sign in Blood.
You like the whole Necropede plan huh? Yeah, I liked the idea of being able to kill bigger guys with him too.
I'm glad someone else likes the idea of Hero of Oxid Ridge. He is actually questionable in my mind right now. I need more games with the deck to find out if he is actually helpful. Though, when I beat Vamps with damage, he was a key part of that.
Sideboarding. Well, that is a good question, now that my sideboard has changed. I honestly never needed Crush, even against Caw-Blade. So that might be coming out completely. I never really had room to bring in the 4th Duress either, but it worked out just fine. I'm also adding 2 more Pyroclasm. Oh, and I played it without the Tectonic Edge, and never missed them either.
Sideboard
2x Pyroclasm
3x Doom Blade
3x Crush
4x Mind Rot
3x Duress
Valakut:
-2 Pyroclasm
-4 Lightning Bolt
-4 Necropede
+3 Duress
+4 Mind Rot
+3 Doom Blade
Caw Blade
-4 Necropede
-1 Hero of Oxid Ridge
-1 Sign in Blood
-1 Go For the Throat
+2 Pyroclasm
+3 Duress
+2 Mind Rot or +2 Doom Blade (still deciding)
Vampires:
-2 Sign in Blood
+2 Pyroclasm
GW Quest Vengevine
-2 Necropede
-3 Sign In Blood
+2 Pyroclasm
+3 Doom Blade
Kulodotha Red
-3 Sign in Blood
+2 Pyroclasm
+1 Doom Blade
Boros
-3 Sign in Blood
+2 Pyroclasm
+1 Doom Blade
Mono Black Control
-4 Necropede
-1 Hero of Oxid Ridge
-2 Sign in Blood
+3 Duress
+4 Mind Rot
Any other matchups you want to know about?
Thats like saying it'd be ok to list a mono blue white control decklist here because it plays the same...
:symg::symu:
Valakut Aggro
:symr::symg:
Never 4, use 3 at the most. Even against aggro you usually only need to draw 1 with the other removal/control cards in the deck
:symg::symu:
Valakut Aggro
:symr::symg: