battled a legacy green elf-land destruction deck. my G/W turbofog didn't have a chance. Also dueled a white weenie deck, grand abolisher murdered me. any tips?
This isn't on par with most Legacy decks, they just have access to so many more cards that it's pretty uneven.
And as for Grand Abolisher, did you not draw into ANY answers? Day of Judgment, Beast Within, Oblivion Ring, Karn, Gideon? I'm sort of surprised. What list did you use?
Kraum, is the list on the first page for your GW build what you are currently using? I'm a big fan of Rites of Flourishing and would like to play your list, or something similiar.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not playing much these days... hope all is well in the MtG community
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
Kraum, is the list on the first page for your GW build what you are currently using? I'm a big fan of Rites of Flourishing and would like to play your list, or something similiar.
Yes. Though two spots are in constant motion. I'm currently testing the third Karn, where I had him at only 2 before. It was great on Friday, but I'm not sure if it might be 1 too many. And the 1 Noxious Revival is sort of a filler until I can come up with something better. Right now the Revival is decent though.
Yes. Though two spots are in constant motion. I'm currently testing the third Karn, where I had him at only 2 before. It was great on Friday, but I'm not sure if it might be 1 too many. And the 1 Noxious Revival is sort of a filler until I can come up with something better. Right now the Revival is decent though.
I see, that's a toughy. I've never played with Karn, or Gideon before, but am getting 3 Gideon (won 1 too many on eBay) and am watching some Karn auctions.
I wouldn't mind proxying a couple of Garruk, Primal Hunter for the deck to try, because he can pump out blockers, and end the game after a DoJ, but I'm not sure if his trip Green is worth it yet.
Let us know how you do on Friday if you attend an FNM this week. Not sure if I will or not, but I'd definitely bring Rites to FNM if I can.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not playing much these days... hope all is well in the MtG community
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
I see, that's a toughy. I've never played with Karn, or Gideon before, but am getting 3 Gideon (won 1 too many on eBay) and am watching some Karn auctions.
I wouldn't mind proxying a couple of Garruk, Primal Hunter for the deck to try, because he can pump out blockers, and end the game after a DoJ, but I'm not sure if his trip Green is worth it yet.
Let us know how you do on Friday if you attend an FNM this week. Not sure if I will or not, but I'd definitely bring Rites to FNM if I can.
I was considering a 3rd Gideon, but I haven't had time to test it, and I don't think anyone else has tried it either, so not sure on that yet.
I really don't feel that Garruk is good for this deck. The primary win condition is decking them. Winning by beats is very low on the list, and I don't think that adding cards specifically for that purpose is a good idea. Things like Gideon and Manlands are good because they serve multiple purposes, they Fog/Block/Kill. Garruk only kills, and his Beasts are capable of blocking.
One of the biggest things I don't like about it though is that with running 0 creatures, Garruk's best ability, the -3, is basically useless, or at least, you're only drawing 3 cards off of the Beast that you plopped out last turn.
And there are two reasons that's bad: It's highly inefficient mana-wise. You're only drawing 3 cards, and it's for 5 mana, and it's a turn later than you wanted, which also makes it so you aren't guaranteed to get those cards because your creature could be killed by then.
And the other reason is because, with all of our draw engines, we really don't need anymore cards. We have plenty, sometimes even too much, having to discard at the end of turn in case you can't play it all.
As for Friday, I can't wait. I think I'll be able to go, but if not, I'll most surely be attending Game Day on Saturday.
Not a fan of chumps with out reach. A lot of what you wish to block seems to fly now a days.
I love a third Gideon. I have him in my deck. He is multi use fog spell. If I have 2 in hand I will just let him get used up and recast. I can often stock pile fog's that way. He is really only bad against Valkut. Against Twin he will take that alpha strike. Against control he stops those pesky Ink Moths. Against control they are often only doing 3 or 4 a turn and it takes a LONG time to get through him.
Im really liking the GW version of this deck, Just from using my immagination on predicting games I think Karn should only be a 1 of and I think a hard to kill creature should be maindeck like thrun or something because relying on having enough fogs/wrath is just foolish.
I can get some GW Turbo Fog gameplay videos up from Magic Online if anyone else has the cards online and would allow me to borrow them(I will provide collaterall)
I was considering a 3rd Gideon, but I haven't had time to test it, and I don't think anyone else has tried it either, so not sure on that yet.
I really don't feel that Garruk is good for this deck. The primary win condition is decking them. Winning by beats is very low on the list, and I don't think that adding cards specifically for that purpose is a good idea. Things like Gideon and Manlands are good because they serve multiple purposes, they Fog/Block/Kill. Garruk only kills, and his Beasts are capable of blocking.
One of the biggest things I don't like about it though is that with running 0 creatures, Garruk's best ability, the -3, is basically useless, or at least, you're only drawing 3 cards off of the Beast that you plopped out last turn.
And there are two reasons that's bad: It's highly inefficient mana-wise. You're only drawing 3 cards, and it's for 5 mana, and it's a turn later than you wanted, which also makes it so you aren't guaranteed to get those cards because your creature could be killed by then.
And the other reason is because, with all of our draw engines, we really don't need anymore cards. We have plenty, sometimes even too much, having to discard at the end of turn in case you can't play it all.
As for Friday, I can't wait. I think I'll be able to go, but if not, I'll most surely be attending Game Day on Saturday.
You can draw six off gidion. You can this every other turn. He is some amazing win more. Yeah, I agree. He's overkill.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
I was considering a 3rd Gideon, but I haven't had time to test it, and I don't think anyone else has tried it either, so not sure on that yet.
I really don't feel that Garruk is good for this deck. The primary win condition is decking them. Winning by beats is very low on the list, and I don't think that adding cards specifically for that purpose is a good idea. Things like Gideon and Manlands are good because they serve multiple purposes, they Fog/Block/Kill. Garruk only kills, and his Beasts are capable of blocking.
One of the biggest things I don't like about it though is that with running 0 creatures, Garruk's best ability, the -3, is basically useless, or at least, you're only drawing 3 cards off of the Beast that you plopped out last turn.
And there are two reasons that's bad: It's highly inefficient mana-wise. You're only drawing 3 cards, and it's for 5 mana, and it's a turn later than you wanted, which also makes it so you aren't guaranteed to get those cards because your creature could be killed by then.
And the other reason is because, with all of our draw engines, we really don't need anymore cards. We have plenty, sometimes even too much, having to discard at the end of turn in case you can't play it all.
As for Friday, I can't wait. I think I'll be able to go, but if not, I'll most surely be attending Game Day on Saturday.
If you noticed U.S. Nationals top 8 some of the Caw-blade players were running 3 Gideon Jura in the main. If you think that Noxious Revival is more of a filler card then I may try 3 karn and 3 Gideon.
I have almost no time for play testing except on the night of the tournaments. I don't even think I'll have the gideons or karns for this friday. This next friday if I go and have them I'll let you know if a 3 gideon / 3 karn works.
Gideon is an excellent card overall, so I can't imagine why he'd be bad for the deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not playing much these days... hope all is well in the MtG community
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
Has anyone tried out Venser's Journal in this deck? It costs 5, but it lets you keep all the cards you draw, plus the lifegain might be useful against aggro/red decks...
Has anyone tried out Venser's Journal in this deck? It costs 5, but it lets you keep all the cards you draw, plus the lifegain might be useful against aggro/red decks...
I tried this as a two of a few weeks ago in a Rites deck, and the card would either not get drawn quickly enough, or would get destroyed shortly after getting played.
It was good, but I never got enough life out of the card to keep me alive for very long. I'll admit I was playing a fogless deck, but still, the lifegain wasn't enough for me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not playing much these days... hope all is well in the MtG community
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
That's the list I've been playing I like the clasps interaction with luminarch and
Inkmoth and the extra noxious revival give me a brutal land destruction package. Timely reinforcements is probably the most busted card in the whole 75 if I get both effects I don't lose ever and as far as my low Karn count I don't think more than one is necessary with revivals and in my testing 1 elixir is totally satisfactory.
This was essentially the list I was playing a few weeks back. and yes Beast within + tectonic Edge + noxious revival is a good land destruction package, but I really only ever found it useful against the Valakut decks and some control. My games go so long that they have a ton of mana just as I. the good news is that this interaction is a natural by product of running the cards we want to run. So land D is just one extra aspect of our game.
The contagion clasp ended up underwhelming for me. One would be the most I would run. Throwiing in the ink moths to make it really shine started messing with my mana base a bit. I decided to go in a different direction.
The inkmoth plan works when you run int fringe strats like Suture Sisters and stuff I actually needed it to beat RDW when they sided in 3 Dragons Claw, and was at like 60 some life XD.
As far as the Land D package goes I almst exclusivly rely on that and Elixers to win against control decks and Valakut. Because the way I see it is Ill keep drawing the lands exponentially along with the beast withins, So I just start cycling them When I have around 4 Draw effects, They cant recycle there lands then eventually casting there bombs becomes pretty tough.
Alright, so at FNM last night I ended up running my list from the Primer with -1 Gideon + 1 Surgical MD. That's cause I didn't have a third Gideon (and still borrowing the other 2, no one wants to trade 'em :().
First Round: UW Tap Control
He has all sorts of tricks with Gideon's Lawkeeper and Gideon's Avenger, but none of them help since I don't have creatures. I mess him up game 1, and we stall out in game 2, so I win. That first game was after a Mulligan down to 5 too.
1-0
Second Round: Pump Infect
I get hit for 6 by a Glistener Elf turn 2 (he's on the play). I survive for a bit, but got stuck at 4 lands so was only able to do one thing per turn, and didn't see a single Fog effect the whole game. He ended up getting the game while I just sat there on 4 lands for about 5 turns (with a Temple Bell in play). Second game, I keep a pretty nice hand, but it only has 2 lands, and I don't draw any lands the whole game.
1-1
Third Round: Bant Pod
This is against one of the top two players at the shop, and he got paired down. I get going, but he starts Podding out Acidic Slime, then Phantasmal Image, then Phyrexian Metamorph, then Sun Titan to get back an Image... and it just gets nasty on my lands. He wins that game after getting his first Slime out on turn 4. Next game it was actually pretty close for a while, and I think I might have it at some points, but don't get past about 6 mana, and he gets Venser out and I don't draw into any O-Rings or Beast Within. Eventually he ultimates with Venser, and plays about 6 spells that turn with all the mana my Rites gave him (and 3 Preordains stockpiled in his hand >.>).
1-2
Fourth Round: Mono Green Beats
So, I get a seven card hand of 1 land. I Mull. Get a 6 card hand of 1 land. I Mull. I get a 5 card hand with 0 land. I Mull. I get a 4 card hand with 0 land. I Mull. I get a 3 card hand with 1 land. I keep. Right now I'm just about to give up, but I play it anyway. I believe the hand was Stirring Wildwood, Temple Bell, Fog. Not bad though.
So now we start the game, and we get pretty damn far into it, I drew 2 lands in the first 3 turns, got 2 draw engines online, and I'm in the game. Eventually he has Hydra at a 20/20, Thrun, and Llanowar Elves out. I decide to play Karn rather than Day of Judgment just to grab up the Hydra since it was the only threat I had to worry about, and he could Regen Thrun anyway (though I did have 2 DoJ). So I tap out to play Karn, and I forget that he has Asceticism (whotf plays that card?). So I get run over by a 40/40 next turn, even though I could have double DoJ and he didn't have enough mana to Regen twice. So that was an awful play mistake.
Game 2, I keep a 7 card hand! I'm already excited. I just take control of the board after drawing into 3 DoJ and a Karn. I end up restarting the game with Garruk, Thrun, and a Forest out. I win that game quickly.
Game 3, it goes to turns. I have him at 5 life from Gideon and Manland beats, but he has 2 Elixir of Immortality (and yes, just about everyone in the shop had those in the SB this week). He goes back to 15 and plays Thrun and double Llanowar, and decides to draw into another Elixir to put him at 20. I have enough mana to DoJ and swing for 18 between Gideon and my 4 Stirring Wildwood (and I have the mana). And I'm turn 5. So I'm 2 damage short of winning that game. So we draw (even though I'd obviously win if we weren't in turns).
1-2-1
That was full of all sorts of play mistakes though, and I'm going to be more careful next time. Going to Game Day today, so hopefully I can bring back better news tonight.
@Ben Delat,
I really like the new version of your list. Looks very solid. If it were my list, I'd probably drop the Noxious for some more Beast Withins and O-Rings, but I'm sure you like Noxious. I might be on the bandwagon for putting Torpor Orb in my sideboard; that Pod list gave me a hard time with those Acidic Slimes/Clones.
As for Leyline maindeck, I don't know about your meta now, but at mine, it was a complete waste last night. Not a single person was playing Red, and I think 1 person had any discard spells. We did have an unusually low turn out last night though. I think I'll have to do more scouting today before I decide to maindeck them or not.
@ DanceofMany - I play Venser's Journal as a 1 of in my deck and it's awesome for me, but I run a straight U/G version not like most people here. I frequently draw off of Blue Sun's Zenith so I was looking for something to increase my max hand size.
I'm still working on this & my Sideboard is always changing , but I have had some local success with it. Visions of beyond is about to be cut because noone ever has 20 cards in their graveyard. I almost always win by drawing their deck out. I have also found that the counters are frequently too slow. So this week I will be testing:
This was the list I piloted at FNM last night, ending 2-2 losing both times to the only two tezzeret players.
4 hedron crab
1 jaces archivist
1 blue sun's zenith
4 DOJ
4 Fog
3 Tanglesap
4 Safe Passage
4 Temple Bell
4 Rites of Flourishing
2 Condemn
4 Jace's Erasure
i am putting 3 leyline of sanctity in the mb from the sb after getting destroyed by inquisition... also, jace's erasure a MUST 4 OF .... It makes you're milling attempts go double as fast. With two erasure's out and an archivist I made someone discard 12 cards and mill 24!!!
I played in my second every face to face event. Keep in mind I am pretty much a newbie to this with nothing but MWS online to practice against. I had made one change to my deck by subbing in a couple Tez gambit for a rites and a karn.
0-2 to Goblins
Game 1 I was dead in three turns. He admited to god drawing.
Game to mulliganed to 5. Stalled a bit but finally got a gid out and one Rites but no answers.
I did not think to bring in Leylines as he did no burn game 1 and only did one Lightning bolt in response to a safe passage game 2.
I felt the deck just let me down in drawing. One sweeper and I would have stabilized. The deck should have performed better.
0-0-1
2-0 Birthing pod.
Game 1: fogged forever and o-ringed his pod and beat face with angels
Game 2: got 2 early Luminarch. Had a Tezzeret's gambit pop and overwhelmed his slow start.
1-0-1
2-0 GW indestructible regenerating dudes (people said this was not really a top tier deck)
Both games he had guys I could not kill out. But he never got damage through.
Misplayed game 2 by O-ringing a Aegis Angel that had made a BOP indestructible, while a cudgel troll was on the field. While I had a Beast within in hand. Still swarmed with angels for the W.
2-0-1
2-1 Illusion phantasm deck (told also not a top tier deck)
I don’t recall game 1 other then fogging all day long as I drew into everything. For some reason the guy overextends (rather then discard perhaps) . I think frustration at not getting through makes people want to do 100 points when they finally do. Anyway I draw a DOJ finally after about 10 rounds.
Game 2: played a 1 land hand after mulling to 4 (fog and luminarch also there). I'm a noob and paid for it like a noob by getting my second mana on turn 4. Did not see another.
Game 3: Fog a few, gideon a few, then Noxious revival a fog and bell it into hand in response on his turn and he quits in a huff.
3-0-1
0-2 Caw Blade
Bottom line the guy was a better player. Every time I got inpatient and tried to apply pressure when he had mana open I paid for it. I lost game one to poison from a sworded Moth. Game two went to sworded hawk and colonade. I never got to play my traps from the board and he sided out all of his removal for 3 Flash freeze and 3 Mental misstep. Thrun was too little too late out of the board as they just flew over his head. I misplayed my Tec edges and he did not misplay his.
3-0-2
I had Torpor orb in the board but never brought them in. Same with Leylines. I never had a Trap go off. The thrun in response for caw blade seams solid but I needed it earlier. The Tezzerets Gambit play seamed meh. The idea was to help early game when my draw engine is helping them more then me. Plus synergistic with Luminarch, but not sold.
Do you guys mulligan if you do not have a draw engine in your opening seven. I would really love to hear your mulligan strategies.
I had Torpor orb in the board but never brought them in. Same with Leylines. I never had a Trap go off. The thrun in response for caw blade seams solid but I needed it earlier. The Tezzerets Gambit play seamed meh. The idea was to help early game when my draw engine is helping them more then me. Plus synergistic with Luminarch, but not sold.
Do you guys mulligan if you do not have a draw engine in your opening seven. I would really love to hear your mulligan strategies.
I'm surprised you didn't bring the Torpor Orb in against Pod; it seems really good there. And I wouldn't use Thrun honestly.
About mulligans, it really depends on the matchup. If I know I'm going against a control deck, I just want to have 3 or 4 lands, and pretty much anything else goes. If it's against aggro, I want 2-3 lands and either 2 Fog effects or at least 1 draw engine. This deck can survive off of very few cards in the opening hand, as long as you get to 3 lands you're pretty much gold.
Now, Game Day:
We had an awful showing. Only 6 people. So our shop owner said he'd still run it and give out the promos and prizes, it just won't be sanctioned. We were all down for it, so we went ahead and started our 3 rounds.
Round One:
Played against a guy that had never been in a tournament before. He was playing some sort of mono white deck. I'm not really sure what to call it. He played the thing that gets +3/+3 if you have a Griffin, lots of Griffins, Serra Angel, Sun Titan, his single Gideon (which he wouldn't budge off of :-/), and Honor of the Pure, along with a few other things like O-Ring. Game One:
I was only letting minor damage pass through, and I think I used Day of Judgment about 7 times this game. I did eventually have 3 Bells and 3 Rites out, and he had, I'd say, about 20 cards left in his deck. But time was getting kind of close (20 minutes or so I'd say), and my Karn had exiled 3 Plains, a Serra Angel, and an Honor of the Pure and was at 14. So I figured, I would win the game quicker with restarting the game. The thing was though, I forgot that I had exiled the Honor of the Pure, Serra Angel, and one of the Plains with a different Karn (we hadn't separated the piles) until after I declared that I was doing that and he already started grabbing up his cards. He didn't actually know it all had to be from the same Karn, but I couldn't do that to him. So we restarted the game, and I had 2 Plains in play. I felt stupid after that. We went to time, and since neither of us were going to win, just for kicks in turn 4, I restarted the game again. We were both red in the face laughing. So this is the first game where I had ever gone 0-0, but I could have easily gone 1-0 and stalled if I wasn't dicking around. But it wasn't sanctioned, so no big deal.
0-0-1
Round 2:
Played against the last guy's wife. She was nice and stuff, and I kind of felt bad about putting her through all this, but she said it was fun. Game One:
She's playing some mono black concoction with the Throne/Crown/Scepter and 4 Diabolic Tutors in it. With how slow my deck was, she was actually able to get all 3 online a couple of times before I used Karn, O-Ring, or Beast Within to drop a piece. I eventually killed her with Manlands though. Also, sidenote, Reanimating Skeleton is a pain, I had to exile all of 'em to get in with my Wildwoods, or they just kept coming back. Game Two:
I got down low pretty early, but ended up getting a double Timely Reinforcements while she was 11 life ahead of me and had 4 creatures out. I stabilized very nicely with Karn. We eventually went to turns and I won the round 1-0.
1-0-1
Round Three:
I'm playing against my friend, imagine that. He's playing Jund, though still missing some cards for his optimal decklist, as was I. Game One:
I just have him on total lockdown this whole game. The best he does is Acidic Slime a Rites and use Inferno's ETB ability to kill my Karn that went down to 3 after it landed (on two different occasions). I kept drawing into Day of Judgment and was able to use it whenever any legitimate threats hit the table though. His manlands would have had me, but I had 2 Tec Edges out. He packed it up with 4 cards left in his library.
After that first game, we had about 25 minutes left in the round. The guy that I had tied with first round (d'oh) had won his other two rounds, so he had 7 points now that the third round ended for him. My friend had won his 2 rounds before this, so he had 6 points, and I was at 4 points because of that tie. The other 3 people had 3 points or 0 points no matter how their match ended. So we knew that no matter what, we'd both be top 3. But if I won that, I'd have 7 and he'd have 6, and that would put me at 2nd (because I would have less games than the other guy at 7), and him at 3rd. But if I let him "win" then he'd have 9 for a most definite 1st, and I'd get 3rd still, that way we would get more packs combined. So we decided to split the packs and I "conceded" to him. I ended up getting 6 packs and he got 7.
So, I won that match, even though it was reported as a loss.
2-0-1 then was the real final score for me.
So, not bad I guess, but it wasn't really much to test against. Here's the list I used:
The guy that I had borrowed the Gideons from was at work today, so I wasn't able to get those, and, once again, nobody would trade them. I ended up taking the Leylines out of the main after knowing what everyone was playing too. This was totally a meta call, and I would probably still run them main deck in a bigger tournament. I just moved some stuff in from the sideboard and decided to stick in 3 Timely Reinforcements since they were handy and sounded good.
The Timely Reinforcements was actually really good. I might actually stick them in the deck permanently, or at least give them some sideboard spots. Noxious Revival was alright, but not spectacular. I don't think I'll be running that. And Surgical Extraction just did its thing.
After taking a look at the bigger meta again, I don't think I need the Nature's Claims or Ratchet Bomb honestly. I think I may be removing those for probably Timely Reinforcements, or making room if I decide to keep Leyline in the sideboard. I do also want to grab up some Torpor Orbs to try out against Pod and the like, I think it could be really good.
I'll try to get some Gideons before this Friday so we can have as accurate results as possible. This is starting to get ridiculous, it's been like 3 or 4 weeks now that I've been trying to get them and still haven't been able to get even a single one off of somebody.
I'm going to play tomorrow night at 7 and I've went to this list, before I go any last minute suggestions? Out of about 40 people and this is what I saw last week for a meta.
3-4 Caw
2 Valakut
3 Rdw (goblins,Kilin Fiend, and KRED)
4 TS
1 Bant Pod
1 Jund Pod
1 Grand Architect
I'll do a write up of how i do once I get back in.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard UWControlUW
Legacy BUStormBU
EDH/Commander UBGMr. MimeUBG[PHP][/PHP]
I'm going to play tomorrow night at 7 and I've went to this list, before I go any last minute suggestions? Out of about 40 people and this is what I saw last week for a meta.
3-4 Caw
2 Valakut
3 Rdw (goblins,Kilin Fiend, and KRED)
4 TS
1 Bant Pod
1 Jund Pod
1 Grand Architect
I'll do a write up of how i do once I get back in.
I'm not a big fan of Luminarch, but some people love it. I would definitely drop Noxious to a 3-of, and I believe that you could up your O-Ring count to 3. I think you would love a 2nd Karn in there if you decided on something to cut. I could see cutting another Noxious or the Surgical.
And for the sideboard, if you want an Eldrazi, I would suggest running Ulamog over Emrakul. He's indestructible and still wins in 2 turns. I've also been finding Ratchet Bomb to be not that great lately. I don't know if it's just me or not, but I don't think you'll be needing it. By the looks of it, you'll be having some Pod decks, so I would suggest adding in some Torpor Orbs to shut them down. Nature's Claim might be good as well.
Anywho though, whether or not you make any changes, good luck tomorrow.
Your deck looks a lot like mine except I use an Ulmog as a virtual elixir that has a rare secondary use. I don't run Surgical but I totally get it. especially given the beasts filling up the yard with their combo pieces. Rapes Valakut.
I'm surprised you didn't bring the Torpor Orb in against Pod; it seems really good there. And I wouldn't use Thrun honestly.
Honestly I was more concerned with screwing something up (too many too few I don't know what) so my sideboarding was a joke. I really did not have a worry about pod though. For whatever reason I always felt the deck was ok against them so i did not need to take anything out.
The second is guaranteed as a T1 deck that is really good, plus its' mana is better. I would choose #2. However, Eminem is correct, comes down to preference. Eminem was not correct, however, for tying Rihanna to the bed and setting the house on fire.
Alright, I decided to try a new approach to turbofog. Aggressive mill. For this purpose I have decided to DROP white and play U/G. The deck is MONSTER fast. The added Fog effects (12), reduce the need for sweepers and the big boys (Archive + Jace) take out HUGE chunks of libraries. Since this version mills so much quicker than W/G, it doesn't need to depend on always drawing the answer.
This isn't on par with most Legacy decks, they just have access to so many more cards that it's pretty uneven.
And as for Grand Abolisher, did you not draw into ANY answers? Day of Judgment, Beast Within, Oblivion Ring, Karn, Gideon? I'm sort of surprised. What list did you use?
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
Yes. Though two spots are in constant motion. I'm currently testing the third Karn, where I had him at only 2 before. It was great on Friday, but I'm not sure if it might be 1 too many. And the 1 Noxious Revival is sort of a filler until I can come up with something better. Right now the Revival is decent though.
I see, that's a toughy. I've never played with Karn, or Gideon before, but am getting 3 Gideon (won 1 too many on eBay) and am watching some Karn auctions.
I wouldn't mind proxying a couple of Garruk, Primal Hunter for the deck to try, because he can pump out blockers, and end the game after a DoJ, but I'm not sure if his trip Green is worth it yet.
Let us know how you do on Friday if you attend an FNM this week. Not sure if I will or not, but I'd definitely bring Rites to FNM if I can.
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
I was considering a 3rd Gideon, but I haven't had time to test it, and I don't think anyone else has tried it either, so not sure on that yet.
I really don't feel that Garruk is good for this deck. The primary win condition is decking them. Winning by beats is very low on the list, and I don't think that adding cards specifically for that purpose is a good idea. Things like Gideon and Manlands are good because they serve multiple purposes, they Fog/Block/Kill. Garruk only kills, and his Beasts are capable of blocking.
One of the biggest things I don't like about it though is that with running 0 creatures, Garruk's best ability, the -3, is basically useless, or at least, you're only drawing 3 cards off of the Beast that you plopped out last turn.
And there are two reasons that's bad: It's highly inefficient mana-wise. You're only drawing 3 cards, and it's for 5 mana, and it's a turn later than you wanted, which also makes it so you aren't guaranteed to get those cards because your creature could be killed by then.
And the other reason is because, with all of our draw engines, we really don't need anymore cards. We have plenty, sometimes even too much, having to discard at the end of turn in case you can't play it all.
As for Friday, I can't wait. I think I'll be able to go, but if not, I'll most surely be attending Game Day on Saturday.
I love a third Gideon. I have him in my deck. He is multi use fog spell. If I have 2 in hand I will just let him get used up and recast. I can often stock pile fog's that way. He is really only bad against Valkut. Against Twin he will take that alpha strike. Against control he stops those pesky Ink Moths. Against control they are often only doing 3 or 4 a turn and it takes a LONG time to get through him.
I can get some GW Turbo Fog gameplay videos up from Magic Online if anyone else has the cards online and would allow me to borrow them(I will provide collaterall)
Message me on her if you can help me out.
You can draw six off gidion. You can this every other turn. He is some amazing win more. Yeah, I agree. He's overkill.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
If you noticed U.S. Nationals top 8 some of the Caw-blade players were running 3 Gideon Jura in the main. If you think that Noxious Revival is more of a filler card then I may try 3 karn and 3 Gideon.
I have almost no time for play testing except on the night of the tournaments. I don't even think I'll have the gideons or karns for this friday. This next friday if I go and have them I'll let you know if a 3 gideon / 3 karn works.
Gideon is an excellent card overall, so I can't imagine why he'd be bad for the deck.
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
I tried this as a two of a few weeks ago in a Rites deck, and the card would either not get drawn quickly enough, or would get destroyed shortly after getting played.
It was good, but I never got enough life out of the card to keep me alive for very long. I'll admit I was playing a fogless deck, but still, the lifegain wasn't enough for me.
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
4 temple bell
3 day of judgment
3 noxious revival
1 contagion clasp
2 luminarch ascension
2 Gideon Jura
1 Karn liberated
2 oblivion ring
3 beast within
4 fog
4 safe passage
2 leyline of sanctity
1 elixer of immortality
3 razorverge
4 tectonic edge
2 inkmoth nexus
6 plains
5 forest
Sb
1 leyline of sanctity
1 elixir of immortality
3 thrun, the last troll
1 day of judgment
2 surgical extraction
1 beast within
2 torpor orb
That's the list I've been playing I like the clasps interaction with luminarch and
Inkmoth and the extra noxious revival give me a brutal land destruction package. Timely reinforcements is probably the most busted card in the whole 75 if I get both effects I don't lose ever and as far as my low Karn count I don't think more than one is necessary with revivals and in my testing 1 elixir is totally satisfactory.
RUg Wave Ramp (34-3-0)
The contagion clasp ended up underwhelming for me. One would be the most I would run. Throwiing in the ink moths to make it really shine started messing with my mana base a bit. I decided to go in a different direction.
As far as the Land D package goes I almst exclusivly rely on that and Elixers to win against control decks and Valakut. Because the way I see it is Ill keep drawing the lands exponentially along with the beast withins, So I just start cycling them When I have around 4 Draw effects, They cant recycle there lands then eventually casting there bombs becomes pretty tough.
RUg Wave Ramp (34-3-0)
First Round: UW Tap Control
He has all sorts of tricks with Gideon's Lawkeeper and Gideon's Avenger, but none of them help since I don't have creatures. I mess him up game 1, and we stall out in game 2, so I win. That first game was after a Mulligan down to 5 too.
1-0
Second Round: Pump Infect
I get hit for 6 by a Glistener Elf turn 2 (he's on the play). I survive for a bit, but got stuck at 4 lands so was only able to do one thing per turn, and didn't see a single Fog effect the whole game. He ended up getting the game while I just sat there on 4 lands for about 5 turns (with a Temple Bell in play). Second game, I keep a pretty nice hand, but it only has 2 lands, and I don't draw any lands the whole game.
1-1
Third Round: Bant Pod
This is against one of the top two players at the shop, and he got paired down. I get going, but he starts Podding out Acidic Slime, then Phantasmal Image, then Phyrexian Metamorph, then Sun Titan to get back an Image... and it just gets nasty on my lands. He wins that game after getting his first Slime out on turn 4. Next game it was actually pretty close for a while, and I think I might have it at some points, but don't get past about 6 mana, and he gets Venser out and I don't draw into any O-Rings or Beast Within. Eventually he ultimates with Venser, and plays about 6 spells that turn with all the mana my Rites gave him (and 3 Preordains stockpiled in his hand >.>).
1-2
Fourth Round: Mono Green Beats
So, I get a seven card hand of 1 land. I Mull. Get a 6 card hand of 1 land. I Mull. I get a 5 card hand with 0 land. I Mull. I get a 4 card hand with 0 land. I Mull. I get a 3 card hand with 1 land. I keep. Right now I'm just about to give up, but I play it anyway. I believe the hand was Stirring Wildwood, Temple Bell, Fog. Not bad though.
So now we start the game, and we get pretty damn far into it, I drew 2 lands in the first 3 turns, got 2 draw engines online, and I'm in the game. Eventually he has Hydra at a 20/20, Thrun, and Llanowar Elves out. I decide to play Karn rather than Day of Judgment just to grab up the Hydra since it was the only threat I had to worry about, and he could Regen Thrun anyway (though I did have 2 DoJ). So I tap out to play Karn, and I forget that he has Asceticism (whotf plays that card?). So I get run over by a 40/40 next turn, even though I could have double DoJ and he didn't have enough mana to Regen twice. So that was an awful play mistake.
Game 2, I keep a 7 card hand! I'm already excited. I just take control of the board after drawing into 3 DoJ and a Karn. I end up restarting the game with Garruk, Thrun, and a Forest out. I win that game quickly.
Game 3, it goes to turns. I have him at 5 life from Gideon and Manland beats, but he has 2 Elixir of Immortality (and yes, just about everyone in the shop had those in the SB this week). He goes back to 15 and plays Thrun and double Llanowar, and decides to draw into another Elixir to put him at 20. I have enough mana to DoJ and swing for 18 between Gideon and my 4 Stirring Wildwood (and I have the mana). And I'm turn 5. So I'm 2 damage short of winning that game. So we draw (even though I'd obviously win if we weren't in turns).
1-2-1
That was full of all sorts of play mistakes though, and I'm going to be more careful next time. Going to Game Day today, so hopefully I can bring back better news tonight.
I really like the new version of your list. Looks very solid. If it were my list, I'd probably drop the Noxious for some more Beast Withins and O-Rings, but I'm sure you like Noxious. I might be on the bandwagon for putting Torpor Orb in my sideboard; that Pod list gave me a hard time with those Acidic Slimes/Clones.
As for Leyline maindeck, I don't know about your meta now, but at mine, it was a complete waste last night. Not a single person was playing Red, and I think 1 person had any discard spells. We did have an unusually low turn out last night though. I think I'll have to do more scouting today before I decide to maindeck them or not.
Are you going to Game Day, Ben Delat?
My current build looks something like this:
4 Visions from Beyond
4 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Venser's Journal
4 Fog
3 Blunt the Assault
4 Tanglesap
4 Rites of Flourishing
3 Cancel
3 Mana Leak
2 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
10 Island
10 Forest
I'm still working on this & my Sideboard is always changing , but I have had some local success with it. Visions of beyond is about to be cut because noone ever has 20 cards in their graveyard. I almost always win by drawing their deck out. I have also found that the counters are frequently too slow. So this week I will be testing:
- 4 visions of Beyond
- 3 Cancel
+ 4 Archive Trap
+ 3 Temple Bell
My Sb consisits of some # of Nature's Claim, thrun, the last troll, Jace's Archivist/CARD],Into the roil, whatever else seems good against my current local meta.
4 hedron crab
1 jaces archivist
1 blue sun's zenith
4 DOJ
4 Fog
3 Tanglesap
4 Safe Passage
4 Temple Bell
4 Rites of Flourishing
2 Condemn
4 Jace's Erasure
i am putting 3 leyline of sanctity in the mb from the sb after getting destroyed by inquisition... also, jace's erasure a MUST 4 OF .... It makes you're milling attempts go double as fast. With two erasure's out and an archivist I made someone discard 12 cards and mill 24!!!
0-2 to Goblins
Game 1 I was dead in three turns. He admited to god drawing.
Game to mulliganed to 5. Stalled a bit but finally got a gid out and one Rites but no answers.
I did not think to bring in Leylines as he did no burn game 1 and only did one Lightning bolt in response to a safe passage game 2.
I felt the deck just let me down in drawing. One sweeper and I would have stabilized. The deck should have performed better.
0-0-1
2-0 Birthing pod.
Game 1: fogged forever and o-ringed his pod and beat face with angels
Game 2: got 2 early Luminarch. Had a Tezzeret's gambit pop and overwhelmed his slow start.
1-0-1
2-0 GW indestructible regenerating dudes (people said this was not really a top tier deck)
Both games he had guys I could not kill out. But he never got damage through.
Misplayed game 2 by O-ringing a Aegis Angel that had made a BOP indestructible, while a cudgel troll was on the field. While I had a Beast within in hand. Still swarmed with angels for the W.
2-0-1
2-1 Illusion phantasm deck (told also not a top tier deck)
I don’t recall game 1 other then fogging all day long as I drew into everything. For some reason the guy overextends (rather then discard perhaps) . I think frustration at not getting through makes people want to do 100 points when they finally do. Anyway I draw a DOJ finally after about 10 rounds.
Game 2: played a 1 land hand after mulling to 4 (fog and luminarch also there). I'm a noob and paid for it like a noob by getting my second mana on turn 4. Did not see another.
Game 3: Fog a few, gideon a few, then Noxious revival a fog and bell it into hand in response on his turn and he quits in a huff.
3-0-1
0-2 Caw Blade
Bottom line the guy was a better player. Every time I got inpatient and tried to apply pressure when he had mana open I paid for it. I lost game one to poison from a sworded Moth. Game two went to sworded hawk and colonade. I never got to play my traps from the board and he sided out all of his removal for 3 Flash freeze and 3 Mental misstep. Thrun was too little too late out of the board as they just flew over his head. I misplayed my Tec edges and he did not misplay his.
3-0-2
I had Torpor orb in the board but never brought them in. Same with Leylines. I never had a Trap go off. The thrun in response for caw blade seams solid but I needed it earlier. The Tezzerets Gambit play seamed meh. The idea was to help early game when my draw engine is helping them more then me. Plus synergistic with Luminarch, but not sold.
Do you guys mulligan if you do not have a draw engine in your opening seven. I would really love to hear your mulligan strategies.
I'm surprised you didn't bring the Torpor Orb in against Pod; it seems really good there. And I wouldn't use Thrun honestly.
About mulligans, it really depends on the matchup. If I know I'm going against a control deck, I just want to have 3 or 4 lands, and pretty much anything else goes. If it's against aggro, I want 2-3 lands and either 2 Fog effects or at least 1 draw engine. This deck can survive off of very few cards in the opening hand, as long as you get to 3 lands you're pretty much gold.
Now, Game Day:
We had an awful showing. Only 6 people. So our shop owner said he'd still run it and give out the promos and prizes, it just won't be sanctioned. We were all down for it, so we went ahead and started our 3 rounds.
Round One:
Played against a guy that had never been in a tournament before. He was playing some sort of mono white deck. I'm not really sure what to call it. He played the thing that gets +3/+3 if you have a Griffin, lots of Griffins, Serra Angel, Sun Titan, his single Gideon (which he wouldn't budge off of :-/), and Honor of the Pure, along with a few other things like O-Ring.
Game One:
I was only letting minor damage pass through, and I think I used Day of Judgment about 7 times this game. I did eventually have 3 Bells and 3 Rites out, and he had, I'd say, about 20 cards left in his deck. But time was getting kind of close (20 minutes or so I'd say), and my Karn had exiled 3 Plains, a Serra Angel, and an Honor of the Pure and was at 14. So I figured, I would win the game quicker with restarting the game. The thing was though, I forgot that I had exiled the Honor of the Pure, Serra Angel, and one of the Plains with a different Karn (we hadn't separated the piles) until after I declared that I was doing that and he already started grabbing up his cards. He didn't actually know it all had to be from the same Karn, but I couldn't do that to him. So we restarted the game, and I had 2 Plains in play. I felt stupid after that. We went to time, and since neither of us were going to win, just for kicks in turn 4, I restarted the game again. We were both red in the face laughing. So this is the first game where I had ever gone 0-0, but I could have easily gone 1-0 and stalled if I wasn't dicking around. But it wasn't sanctioned, so no big deal.
0-0-1
Round 2:
Played against the last guy's wife. She was nice and stuff, and I kind of felt bad about putting her through all this, but she said it was fun.
Game One:
She's playing some mono black concoction with the Throne/Crown/Scepter and 4 Diabolic Tutors in it. With how slow my deck was, she was actually able to get all 3 online a couple of times before I used Karn, O-Ring, or Beast Within to drop a piece. I eventually killed her with Manlands though. Also, sidenote, Reanimating Skeleton is a pain, I had to exile all of 'em to get in with my Wildwoods, or they just kept coming back.
Game Two:
I got down low pretty early, but ended up getting a double Timely Reinforcements while she was 11 life ahead of me and had 4 creatures out. I stabilized very nicely with Karn. We eventually went to turns and I won the round 1-0.
1-0-1
Round Three:
I'm playing against my friend, imagine that. He's playing Jund, though still missing some cards for his optimal decklist, as was I.
Game One:
I just have him on total lockdown this whole game. The best he does is Acidic Slime a Rites and use Inferno's ETB ability to kill my Karn that went down to 3 after it landed (on two different occasions). I kept drawing into Day of Judgment and was able to use it whenever any legitimate threats hit the table though. His manlands would have had me, but I had 2 Tec Edges out. He packed it up with 4 cards left in his library.
After that first game, we had about 25 minutes left in the round. The guy that I had tied with first round (d'oh) had won his other two rounds, so he had 7 points now that the third round ended for him. My friend had won his 2 rounds before this, so he had 6 points, and I was at 4 points because of that tie. The other 3 people had 3 points or 0 points no matter how their match ended. So we knew that no matter what, we'd both be top 3. But if I won that, I'd have 7 and he'd have 6, and that would put me at 2nd (because I would have less games than the other guy at 7), and him at 3rd. But if I let him "win" then he'd have 9 for a most definite 1st, and I'd get 3rd still, that way we would get more packs combined. So we decided to split the packs and I "conceded" to him. I ended up getting 6 packs and he got 7.
So, I won that match, even though it was reported as a loss.
2-0-1 then was the real final score for me.
So, not bad I guess, but it wasn't really much to test against. Here's the list I used:
4 Temple Bell
4 Fog
4 Safe Passage
3 Day of Judgment
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Beast Within
2 Elixir of Immortality
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Noxious Revival
1 Surgical Extraction
Land:
4 Forest
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Stirring Wildwood
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Plains
4 Nature's Claim
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Day of Judgment
3 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Ratchet Bomb
The guy that I had borrowed the Gideons from was at work today, so I wasn't able to get those, and, once again, nobody would trade them. I ended up taking the Leylines out of the main after knowing what everyone was playing too. This was totally a meta call, and I would probably still run them main deck in a bigger tournament. I just moved some stuff in from the sideboard and decided to stick in 3 Timely Reinforcements since they were handy and sounded good.
The Timely Reinforcements was actually really good. I might actually stick them in the deck permanently, or at least give them some sideboard spots. Noxious Revival was alright, but not spectacular. I don't think I'll be running that. And Surgical Extraction just did its thing.
After taking a look at the bigger meta again, I don't think I need the Nature's Claims or Ratchet Bomb honestly. I think I may be removing those for probably Timely Reinforcements, or making room if I decide to keep Leyline in the sideboard. I do also want to grab up some Torpor Orbs to try out against Pod and the like, I think it could be really good.
I'll try to get some Gideons before this Friday so we can have as accurate results as possible. This is starting to get ridiculous, it's been like 3 or 4 weeks now that I've been trying to get them and still haven't been able to get even a single one off of somebody.
I'm going to play tomorrow night at 7 and I've went to this list, before I go any last minute suggestions? Out of about 40 people and this is what I saw last week for a meta.
3-4 Caw
2 Valakut
3 Rdw (goblins,Kilin Fiend, and KRED)
4 TS
1 Bant Pod
1 Jund Pod
1 Grand Architect
I'll do a write up of how i do once I get back in.
UWControlUW
Legacy
BUStormBU
EDH/Commander
UBGMr. MimeUBG[PHP][/PHP]
I'm not a big fan of Luminarch, but some people love it. I would definitely drop Noxious to a 3-of, and I believe that you could up your O-Ring count to 3. I think you would love a 2nd Karn in there if you decided on something to cut. I could see cutting another Noxious or the Surgical.
And for the sideboard, if you want an Eldrazi, I would suggest running Ulamog over Emrakul. He's indestructible and still wins in 2 turns. I've also been finding Ratchet Bomb to be not that great lately. I don't know if it's just me or not, but I don't think you'll be needing it. By the looks of it, you'll be having some Pod decks, so I would suggest adding in some Torpor Orbs to shut them down. Nature's Claim might be good as well.
Anywho though, whether or not you make any changes, good luck tomorrow.
Honestly I was more concerned with screwing something up (too many too few I don't know what) so my sideboarding was a joke. I really did not have a worry about pod though. For whatever reason I always felt the deck was ok against them so i did not need to take anything out.
Sig by Miraculous Recovery Signatures, avvie by Hakai Studios. Thanks!
Stanard:
WR Grenadier
WW White Grenadier WW
Legacy:
BG 1EverythingGB
Casual:
R AllOutAggro R (49-3)
How your testing with this one....what meta you win and lose to? This list better than other one you played?