While I agree with the sentiment that Magic is a hobby, and the more money you put into it the more enjoyment you're likely to get. However, I think purchasing expensive cards can be considered an investment by competitive standards. If I bought four Jaces, at $70 a pop, I would look at that as an investment. The longer Jace sticks around the more expensive will become, and he will continue to be used across multiple formats. In that sense I'm paying good money for a powerful card that I'll be able to use for years, in multiple formats.
I think the attitude of Magic cards as an investment is poor for the hobby. Most of the opposition to reprinting cards comes from people who yell "but I paid $100 for my dual land, don't reprint it!". That kind of thinking hurts the game, if people could all agree that reprints are good, and we want fair prices, then the only people who would be paying $100 for any card are tournament players, such as myself, who are going to pay any amount to get the deck they feel is the best for a particular high-level event.
A whole lot of bad things are tied up in the belief that cards should be an investment. The thought that Jace is an "investment" is the only reason he's $80 right now.-0
And I'm sure you only buy sleeves for the pretty pictures on the back. Besides, you were perfectly willing to make the comparison when you thought it was in Magic's favor.
I buy sleeves because I'm required to do so to avoid having "marked cards". I could play my decks unsleeved, but it would result in a judge telling me to "get sleeves or get DQ'd". I don't resell cards, and I usually just have cards on loan (rather than trade) so the actual condition of a card is irrelevant. I hard shuffle, so my cards do still get wear from sleeve-play.
Frankly, my main reason for caring for my cards outside of tournament-rules is that I love the game. I think it's disrespectful to beat up my cards. For example, I know some chefs who love cooking. The make plenty of money in a year as they own their own restaurants, they could buy all of the knives they wanted, but they spend a lot of time and money taking care of their knives. Why? They love what they do, and they just have a great deal of respect for their tools.
To me, my cards are a tool I'm using to win tournaments, so yes, I feel the need to have respect for them. I don't view them as having a financial value so much as having a value I place on them. I know people who tear up expensive Magic cards and such, as they don't care about the money. I don't do that, not because the money matters to me, but because it just seems somehow rude to the game to tear up a card. There's some kid starting out somewhere who can't afford that card, so I'd rather just give away over showing that kind of disregard for a game I've enjoyed for 16 years.
I buy sleeves because I'm required to do so to avoid having "marked cards". I could play my decks unsleeved, but it would result in a judge telling me to "get sleeves or get DQ'd". I don't resell cards, and I usually just have cards on loan (rather than trade) so the actual condition of a card is irrelevant. I hard shuffle, so my cards do still get wear from sleeve-play.
Frankly, my main reason for caring for my cards outside of tournament-rules is that I love the game. I think it's disrespectful to beat up my cards. For example, I know some chefs who love cooking. The make plenty of money in a year as they own their own restaurants, they could buy all of the knives they wanted, but they spend a lot of time and money taking care of their knives. Why? They love what they do, and they just have a great deal of respect for their tools.
To me, my cards are a tool I'm using to win tournaments, so yes, I feel the need to have respect for them. I don't view them as having a financial value so much as having a value I place on them. I know people who tear up expensive Magic cards and such, as they don't care about the money. I don't do that, not because the money matters to me, but because it just seems somehow rude to the game to tear up a card. There's some kid starting out somewhere who can't afford that card, so I'd rather just give away over showing that kind of disregard for a game I've enjoyed for 16 years.
And how do you think that makes you different than a casual player who wants to play with Jace?
Wait, what? People complain about the price of standard? Beyond the (almost) $100.00 Jace, what's the problem? The good rares have always been between $10-$20. BSA is a bit up there. Persi too. And?
Come play some Vintage. Then cry about prices. Silly geese.
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Jace 2.0. The face of Standard. Jace 2.0, everywhere. Elfdrazi? Put in Jace 2.0. RDW? Only if Jace 2.0 is in it. MBC? Look! There's J20 in the fold! Majority of Decklists I come across on this board have Jace 2.0 in it. Alright. We get it. He's the messiah. Enough already. This coming from someone with a Playset of him.
A whole lot of bad things are tied up in the belief that cards should be an investment. The thought that Jace is an "investment" is the only reason he's $80 right now.-0
He is not going to be worth $80 after he rotates, He probably will go up in price but that is supply and demand.
The fact is he is a staple and since he is a mythic that means we have a surplus of every other non-mythic card (A.K.A. all non mythics will have low values)
So that means that means from a financial standpoint the only reason to open WWK booster is for Jace.
Or in other words all of the sets value is gradually shifting in one card, Jace and that is why he is so expensive
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
I think, as often, that people are the problem here.
Those "investment" people who buy pre-sale at whatever price they put in front of them because "it'll get more valuable" obviously make it more expensive, not because it's more valuable, but because the market is controlled.
Those downright ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺s who buy competitive decks at extremely high prices and then ruin cards saying it's Wizards' fault they were so expensive...obviously, destroying a scarce product will lower the price of the rest, dimwits.
And well, if Nighthawk, WoO, etc. would've been printed in WWK to complete a strong cast of uncommons, it'd be bought more, right now if you buy WWK and don't get Jace, Percy or Highborn, there's no way you're getting your money back.
Wait, what? People complain about the price of standard? Beyond the (almost) $100.00 Jace, what's the problem? The good rares have always been between $10-$20. BSA is a bit up there. Persi too. And?
Come play some Vintage. Then cry about prices. Silly geese.
Vintage should be more expensive since you keep that deck for a lot longer than standard decks stay around.
Mythics like Vengevine for $40, Gideon Jura for $50, Elspeth Knight Errant for $50, Jace, The Mind Sculptor for $80, Vampire Nocturnus $20
Mix those prices with the cost of making a good mana base (M10 Duals for $10, Fetches for $10) and good rares (Knight of the Reliquary $17, Noble Hierarch $15, Maelstrom Pulse for $20) and the price for a lot of standard decks become absurd. I know there are other options to play and that people should go and build and "break the format" but if that were the case I'm sure those "pros" would be running those decks but instead we see Top 8's full of the most expensive decks in the format.
Just checked out and out of the 45 rares/mythics in WWK 15 are worth more than $3.50, it's not Zendikar, but it's not total crap, and the only way to lower the price of cards like Jace, is to have a lot in the market, guess I'll open up some boosters and re-sell the commons/uncommons in ebay to make a little of an income.
EDIT: In fact it's BETTER than Zendikar, where only 14 of the 68 Rares/Mythics are worth more than $3.5
Granted, ZEN does have more cards that double the price of the booster (13) than WWK (3) but 14/68 is still much worse odds than 15/45 on getting the booster's value back.
To me, my cards are a tool I'm using to win tournaments, so yes, I feel the need to have respect for them. I don't view them as having a financial value so much as having a value I place on them. I know people who tear up expensive Magic cards and such, as they don't care about the money. I don't do that, not because the money matters to me, but because it just seems somehow rude to the game to tear up a card. There's some kid starting out somewhere who can't afford that card, so I'd rather just give away over showing that kind of disregard for a game I've enjoyed for 16 years.
This is my sentiment exactly. At yesterday's FNM Standard night, I gave 2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin to another guy at the shop to help out his mono white weenie deck. He'd ask other people there and would always get the same response, "Go build the deck that took 7th in some PTQ.' I felt bad that he kept getting the "let someone else think for you" answers. Rather than looking at his list and coming up with an honest recommendation. I mentioned that in his build as it stood, he would have been greatly helped by the addition of 2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin and gave them to him.
In a situation like that, rather than have the cards go to total waste sitting in my trade binder, someone who hasn't been as fortunate as me can still put together a decent deck and semi decent performances.
I think this goes more to the spirit of the game and getting people together.
Jace 2.0. The face of Standard. Jace 2.0, everywhere. Elfdrazi? Put in Jace 2.0. RDW? Only if Jace 2.0 is in it. MBC? Look! There's J20 in the fold! Majority of Decklists I come across on this board have Jace 2.0 in it. Alright. We get it. He's the messiah. Enough already. This coming from someone with a Playset of him.
For the past 2 years, I've been buying standard cards/boosters/boxes. When this last set came out (RoE), I bought my last box. After reviewing what I had gathered, I figured, ok, I spent about 2-3k easy in 2 years (probably more). Took inventory of all my standard staples and decks, put a price on every card, and sold them all.
I have now sold over 1750$ worth of "standard" cards, and I what did I do with it? I bought legacy staples that I was missing, 2 goys, a bunch of blue staples, wastelands, Aether Vials, Survival of the Fittest, etc, and spent about 800$.
I am done with standard. Its a money sink. Every dime I spent in a card in legacy was worth it, every dime I spend in Standard is not worth it, as the card drops in price after rotation, unlike legacy staples.
If you want a true investment in Magic as cards, not short term stock exchange like standard is, invest in Legacy staples, and enjoy the full game of magic, not just the last 2 sets + core.
Vintage should be more expensive since you keep that deck for a lot longer than standard decks stay around.
It actually shouldn't be more expensive. The main reason that Vintage is expensive is because it contains decks with scarce cards. For example, the Power, random tutors from Portal, etc...
These cards are only at the insane prices they are because of the Wizards Reprint Policy. That policy was a mistake, the major Vintage supporters are opposed to that policy. Unfortunately Wizards can't go back and undo that policy, as much as we'd like them to, and because of that Vintage doesn't get the following it deserves.
The smartest thing we can do, as Standard players, is learn from the mistakes of Vintage and ask Wizards to ALWAYS reprint our staple cards in the base set. Since the base set (M11, in this case) will be coming out in the middle of Standard season, and since Standard is the most popular format for gamers who are, by and large, establishing themselves, it makes sense
What I mean is, formats like Extended and Legacy are played by people who have been with Magic longer and, at the tournament level, can tolerate the higher costs, whereas Standard hosts events like FNM, cash tournaments and the like, where people are going to be "newer" and expect lower prices. The only way to realistically achieve that is for Wizards to reprint, they are never going to catch every 4x Staple and prevent it from being Mythic, nor do they want to (Planeswalkers at rare are not their goal), but they can keep them in print which will lower prices.
If you want a true investment in Magic as cards, not short term stock exchange like standard is, invest in Legacy staples, and enjoy the full game of magic, not just the last 2 sets + core.
That's my 2 cents.
Stratgan
Until Legacy ceases to be viable for tournaments as the prices of duals, forces, and other staple cards continues to rise. Legacy tournaments in the US are a joke compared to the ones in Europe, and unfortunately mistakes by tournament organizers in the US have hurt the Vintage / Legacy scene, likely beyond repair.
This isn't a thread to discuss those formats though, I bring them up only to point out that those formats were priced out of popularity not because any one card in print (Tarmogoyf for example) shot through the roof but because the manabase necessary to build the most powerful decks became ridiculously expensive.
Wizards has done a good job in Zendikar block with printing great mana-fixing at reasonable prices. There are some of the best uncommon mana-fixers there have been in a long time, to the point where even tournament decks are using some of the "casual" oriented mana fixing. It's great. I have confidence they will find a solution to any other problems to hit a "fair" price point on Walkers. I think $40 ~ $50 is that price point for the "ultra chase Mythic" that we don't want to blow past, because there is a significant difference between $400 ~ $500 tournament decks (Control has always been expensive) and $750 ~ $1000 tournament decks.
I also think we may just bet on the rotation. Part of the reason for the dominance of certain 'walker-heavy Control builds is that the decks that would beat such a deck just cannot beat Jund. I have a deck I call the "Hate Stick" that can at least fight UW Control and wrecks Superfriends (no, I will never post a list because someone will run it) but it losses 100% of the time to Jund. If Jund was gone, that deck would be viable. The best part? The "Hate Stick" deck can be built for under $150.
I honestly believe most of the Mythic blowback is emotional reaction
Not really. The Mythic blowback is because Wizards created a new class of "super rares" that are even rarer than normal rares, and then went and did exactly what they said they wouldn't do and started printing tournament staples at this rarity. If Jace was a normal rare, he would not be worth anywhere close to $80. He's a strong card that sees play in many decks as a 3 or 4 of. Sounds like Bitterblossom, or Mutavault...cards that were never even close to $80, but could easily have been if they were mythic. The Mythic blowback is justified because Mythic rarity is clearly a strong contributor to Jace, Gideon, and Vengevine's absurd prices.
I agree with you about reprinting Jace in the core set as a way to (probably) lower his value, but the real culprit is Wizards inability to stick to their ideals and keep tournament staples out of Mythic Rarity. I hope Wizards has the foresight to fix this problem before it gets out of control because while people are willing to shell out the $$ for Jaces and Gideons now, I doubt they will be willing to do so every 3 months when a new set comes out with the same setup of mythic rares being better for tournament play.
If any random noob could obtain all the same awesome cards as the most passionate players then the game would be a mess. The game would be more about luck involved than true passion and skill.
This makes absolutely no sense. If everyone is on equal footing to begin with (has access to the same cards) then the game is entirely about skill. If people are not on equal footing and said "noobs" are unable to get the best cards, then the game is not about skill, it's about who has more money to sink into having the best cards.
If two players have an identical deck and play each other 100 games and one of the players wins 80 of them, chances are that player is more skilled (although there are some luck elements, like mana screw, etc.). If one player is playing an $800 deck with the best cards in standard, and the other player is playing a $40 deck with crappy rares, and the $800 deck guy wins 80 times out of 100, can you say that he's simply more passionate or skilled at the game? You might even say that the guy with the $40 deck is more skilled at the game for having even won 20 times, because there is such a natural mismatch in terms of deck quality to begin with, that the "noob" has almost no chance of winning, outside of significantly outplaying his opponent.
Everyone having access to the same cards would certainly not make the game a mess. Instead it would make the game truly great, because more people would be able to play the game, leading to an increase in skilled players playing magic, and thus increasing the overall quality in play, and it would make the game less about "who has the ability to acquire the better cards" and instead about "who is the more skilled player."
I dream of a magic online where you pay a monthly fee that gives you access to 4 of every card in standard so long as you are paying the fee. You can play any card you want, and build any deck you want and play them in tournaments. You are playing opponents who are likewise using the best cards at their disposal, so you are never winning or losing purely on $$. I would love that so much, and I'm sure I'm not alone. I currently spend $0 on Magic Online, but if they released this I would be spending $10-$20 a month easily. The only reason I can assume Wizards doesn't do this is because they probably make so much money off of people paying $10-$15 a draft that it probably balances out the 2-3 times more users they would almost certainly have with such a system.
I have confidence they will find a solution to any other problems to hit a "fair" price point on Walkers. I think $40 ~ $50 is that price point for the "ultra chase Mythic" that we don't want to blow past, because there is a significant difference between $400 ~ $500 tournament decks (Control has always been expensive) and $750 ~ $1000 tournament decks.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Or buy Vintage. Mox's only go up. Duals only go up. Etc etc.
Or better yet, play both, but only play a certain amount of Standard.
If the price of cards is a problem of course.
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Jace 2.0. The face of Standard. Jace 2.0, everywhere. Elfdrazi? Put in Jace 2.0. RDW? Only if Jace 2.0 is in it. MBC? Look! There's J20 in the fold! Majority of Decklists I come across on this board have Jace 2.0 in it. Alright. We get it. He's the messiah. Enough already. This coming from someone with a Playset of him.
These cards are only at the insane prices they are because of the Wizards Reprint Policy.
Odd. I thought part of it had to do with who is selling/trading the card.
For example, I bought a near mint Mox Sapphire recently for $500.00. Yet the same card in the same condition across town is going for $750.00.
That's strange how that is Wizard's fault. I would think it would be the both the fault of Wizard's and the fault of the seller.
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Jace 2.0. The face of Standard. Jace 2.0, everywhere. Elfdrazi? Put in Jace 2.0. RDW? Only if Jace 2.0 is in it. MBC? Look! There's J20 in the fold! Majority of Decklists I come across on this board have Jace 2.0 in it. Alright. We get it. He's the messiah. Enough already. This coming from someone with a Playset of him.
Odd. I thought part of it had to do with who is selling/trading the card.
For example, I bought a near mint Mox Sapphire recently for $500.00. Yet the same card in the same condition across town is going for $750.00.
That's strange how that is Wizard's fault. I would think it would be the both the fault of Wizard's and the fault of the seller.
Why is that the fault of the seller? Are we expecting sellers to give up cards they paid $500 for at less than $500? That's ridiculous. If cards remain in print, the price is limited by exactly how many boosters you have to open to get those cards, and the value of every other card in the set. For example, if every other card in Worldwake was worth exactly $0, and you got 1 Jace per two booster boxs, then as long as Worldwake was in print the limit for the price of Jace would be $160.
Now to make it simple, if you reprint Jace in a set with more EV in the other cards (a core set) then that number changes. If, for example, you have 3 potential mythics that are valuable (Jace, Baneslayer, Tarmagoyf) the price of any one of those cards will be lower. This is why reprints are important, they create a price control in the form of "I can always open boosters"
The smartest thing we can do, as Standard players, is learn from the mistakes of Vintage and ask Wizards to ALWAYS reprint our staple cards in the base set.
QFT.
I dream of a world where every single can be bought at a reasonable price, and everbody has their set of Tarmogoyf and Jace 2.0. The Elspeth/Tezzeret duel decks brings that dream closer to reality ( everbody, get your elspeths asap !). And the more Wizard reprints such cards the lower their value in the secondary market and the easier they will be to get.
Cards are meant to be played, if someone wants to collect them as an investment or have high values, should go to invest in wall street. Things like the reserve list and the greedy players who want their Jace 2.0 prices to go skyrocket are a cancer for the magic community.
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Quote from Caranthir »
Yawgmoth, the ruler of Phyrexia, Lord of the Wastes, Father of Machines, is DEAD. He's passed on. He is no more! He has ceased to be! He is expired and gone to meet his maker! He is a stiff! Bereft of life, he rests in peace! He kicked the bucket, He has shuffled off his (apparently)mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!
I dream of a world where every single can be bought at a reasonable price, and everbody has their set of Tarmogoyf and Jace 2.0. The Elspeth/Tezzeret duel decks brings that dream closer to reality ( everbody, get your elspeths asap !). And the more Wizard reprints such cards the lower their value in the secondary market and the easier they will be to get.
Cards are meant to be played, if someone wants to collect them as an investment or have high values, should go to invest in wall street. Things like the reserve list and the greedy players who want their Jace 2.0 prices to go skyrocket are a cancer for the magic community.
There will still always be a collector's market. You can do that with Judge's Foils, special editions, misprints, and the first printing of cards. For example, an Alpha Birds of Paradise is obviously worth more than an M10 Birds of Paradise. The cards will also always have some value, Baneslayer was $40 ~ $50 and Tarmogoyf was expensive even while in-print.
But yes, reprinting our staples in the core sets will keep those prices at $50 or below, which is FAR more accessible than if the cards are breaking the $100 price point. It's just economics, there are a lot more buyers of $500 decks than there are of $1000 decks.
Also, if cards are being reprinted, then people can carry-forward expensive cards for a bit longer.
Why is that the fault of the seller? Are we expecting sellers to give up cards they paid $500 for at less than $500? That's ridiculous. If cards remain in print, the price is limited by exactly how many boosters you have to open to get those cards, and the value of every other card in the set. For example, if every other card in Worldwake was worth exactly $0, and you got 1 Jace per two booster boxs, then as long as Worldwake was in print the limit for the price of Jace would be $160.
Now to make it simple, if you reprint Jace in a set with more EV in the other cards (a core set) then that number changes. If, for example, you have 3 potential mythics that are valuable (Jace, Baneslayer, Tarmagoyf) the price of any one of those cards will be lower. This is why reprints are important, they create a price control in the form of "I can always open boosters"
Sure, you're right.
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Jace 2.0. The face of Standard. Jace 2.0, everywhere. Elfdrazi? Put in Jace 2.0. RDW? Only if Jace 2.0 is in it. MBC? Look! There's J20 in the fold! Majority of Decklists I come across on this board have Jace 2.0 in it. Alright. We get it. He's the messiah. Enough already. This coming from someone with a Playset of him.
It's the morons who go out and actually spend x amount of dollars on these rares. This is what keeps the prices so high. If we don't spend the money, the prices will drop, it's as simple as that.
yeah, i completely agree. I've noticed some of my friends (I'm still in highschool) spend like 1000$ every month. Why? Parents that spoil their kid. And when they do work, they start spending $1500 a month. X( not cool.
Anyways, if everyone stops buying jace the mind sculptor, the price will drop.
Low Quantity+High Demand=Ridiculous Prices.
P.S
I'd like to add that MTG has ruined the game for people who still wanna play old cards. Adding baneslayer angel made some cards look weak. The cost for it is ridiculous. The MTG staff must be high when they created cards like that.
Idk why jace the mind sculptor is so high, it's a great card, but I mainly want it because he is my favourite planeswalker.
Cheers
EndlessEcho
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Why would Wizards add Baneslayer Angel? What is Wizards trying to accomplish now? MTG is now officially too expensive. I thought glimpse the unthinkable was ridiculous and it was only $10 back than.
Or buy Vintage. Mox's only go up. Duals only go up. Etc etc.
Or better yet, play both, but only play a certain amount of Standard.
If the price of cards is a problem of course.
Why would I buy Vintage when no one plays it, and there are no tournaments for it? If I want to actually play the game(constructed) on any kind of regular basis, I HAVE to play standard.
Why would I buy Vintage when no one plays it, and there are no tournaments for it? If I want to actually play the game(constructed) on any kind of regular basis, I HAVE to play standard.
exactly. Standard is the most widely available tournament wise so it's prices need to be kept below that of extended and legacy/vintage. I think subrosian has it right by saying that wizards needs to reprint staples to keep prices down. Although they won't reprint tarmogoyf anytime soon I wouldn't be suprised if jace2 or baneslayer will get reprinted.
I think reprinting cards currently in T2 while they are still in T2 kind of defeats the purpose of standard. Standard should change frequently, not sit around with the same core UW control deck next year as this year.
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That was pretty interesting. But dropping a warship on me is cheating. Take it back!
The new Elspeth duel deck is a slap in the face to everyone. It shows what could be done to keep the prices of certain cards reasonable, but it's done at a time to maximize the value to Wizards and minimize the value to players. The duel deck will likely cost $+20 and gives you four months of playability out of the chase card included in it.
Had such a deck been printed when Shards was released, the price of Elspeth would have been capped at whatever the decks retailed for, but Wizards didn't do that. Instead they gave folks almost two years to crack packs looking for the chase mythic then pulled the rug out from under them by cutting nearly $10 bucks off the value at the point when those folks would be looking to move them.
The result is that folks that got in early for less than $20 will still see a return on investment, but everyone else is going to loose money so that Wizards can mint twenties for a few months and then watch those cards rotate and loose most of their value. This is the ultimate example of what Wizards thinks about its valued customers- we're just there to be brutalized for profit with no consideration given as to how long we'll take it. If they continue to do things like this they will kill the game.
I think reprinting cards currently in T2 while they are still in T2 kind of defeats the purpose of standard. Standard should change frequently, not sit around with the same core UW control deck next year as this year.
1. Standard will still change, the introduction of expansion sets will continue, which is what changes the format.
2. Reprinting Jace in M11 will have ZERO impact on how long he is in the format, as Zendikar and M11 will rotate at the same time.
I think the attitude of Magic cards as an investment is poor for the hobby. Most of the opposition to reprinting cards comes from people who yell "but I paid $100 for my dual land, don't reprint it!". That kind of thinking hurts the game, if people could all agree that reprints are good, and we want fair prices, then the only people who would be paying $100 for any card are tournament players, such as myself, who are going to pay any amount to get the deck they feel is the best for a particular high-level event.
A whole lot of bad things are tied up in the belief that cards should be an investment. The thought that Jace is an "investment" is the only reason he's $80 right now.-0
I buy sleeves because I'm required to do so to avoid having "marked cards". I could play my decks unsleeved, but it would result in a judge telling me to "get sleeves or get DQ'd". I don't resell cards, and I usually just have cards on loan (rather than trade) so the actual condition of a card is irrelevant. I hard shuffle, so my cards do still get wear from sleeve-play.
Frankly, my main reason for caring for my cards outside of tournament-rules is that I love the game. I think it's disrespectful to beat up my cards. For example, I know some chefs who love cooking. The make plenty of money in a year as they own their own restaurants, they could buy all of the knives they wanted, but they spend a lot of time and money taking care of their knives. Why? They love what they do, and they just have a great deal of respect for their tools.
To me, my cards are a tool I'm using to win tournaments, so yes, I feel the need to have respect for them. I don't view them as having a financial value so much as having a value I place on them. I know people who tear up expensive Magic cards and such, as they don't care about the money. I don't do that, not because the money matters to me, but because it just seems somehow rude to the game to tear up a card. There's some kid starting out somewhere who can't afford that card, so I'd rather just give away over showing that kind of disregard for a game I've enjoyed for 16 years.
Spike School
Spike doesn't think. Spike doesn't feel. Spike doesn't laugh or cry. All Spike does from dusk till dawn is make the Johnnys die
And how do you think that makes you different than a casual player who wants to play with Jace?
Come play some Vintage. Then cry about prices. Silly geese.
He is not going to be worth $80 after he rotates, He probably will go up in price but that is supply and demand.
The fact is he is a staple and since he is a mythic that means we have a surplus of every other non-mythic card (A.K.A. all non mythics will have low values)
So that means that means from a financial standpoint the only reason to open WWK booster is for Jace.
Or in other words all of the sets value is gradually shifting in one card, Jace and that is why he is so expensive
This is by for the most expensive standard we have had, Many legacy decks are cheaper than current standard decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Those "investment" people who buy pre-sale at whatever price they put in front of them because "it'll get more valuable" obviously make it more expensive, not because it's more valuable, but because the market is controlled.
Those downright ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺s who buy competitive decks at extremely high prices and then ruin cards saying it's Wizards' fault they were so expensive...obviously, destroying a scarce product will lower the price of the rest, dimwits.
And well, if Nighthawk, WoO, etc. would've been printed in WWK to complete a strong cast of uncommons, it'd be bought more, right now if you buy WWK and don't get Jace, Percy or Highborn, there's no way you're getting your money back.
Vintage should be more expensive since you keep that deck for a lot longer than standard decks stay around.
Mythics like Vengevine for $40, Gideon Jura for $50, Elspeth Knight Errant for $50, Jace, The Mind Sculptor for $80, Vampire Nocturnus $20
Mix those prices with the cost of making a good mana base (M10 Duals for $10, Fetches for $10) and good rares (Knight of the Reliquary $17, Noble Hierarch $15, Maelstrom Pulse for $20) and the price for a lot of standard decks become absurd. I know there are other options to play and that people should go and build and "break the format" but if that were the case I'm sure those "pros" would be running those decks but instead we see Top 8's full of the most expensive decks in the format.
EDIT: In fact it's BETTER than Zendikar, where only 14 of the 68 Rares/Mythics are worth more than $3.5
Granted, ZEN does have more cards that double the price of the booster (13) than WWK (3) but 14/68 is still much worse odds than 15/45 on getting the booster's value back.
This is my sentiment exactly. At yesterday's FNM Standard night, I gave 2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin to another guy at the shop to help out his mono white weenie deck. He'd ask other people there and would always get the same response, "Go build the deck that took 7th in some PTQ.' I felt bad that he kept getting the "let someone else think for you" answers. Rather than looking at his list and coming up with an honest recommendation. I mentioned that in his build as it stood, he would have been greatly helped by the addition of 2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin and gave them to him.
In a situation like that, rather than have the cards go to total waste sitting in my trade binder, someone who hasn't been as fortunate as me can still put together a decent deck and semi decent performances.
I think this goes more to the spirit of the game and getting people together.
UWBEsper ControlBWU
BVampiresB
Person A: Standard is Expensive!
Person B: Don't buy the Expensive cards then?
Person A: Then I won't be competitive!
Person B: Deal with it? Get more money?
*Thread degenerates to someone getting banned*
I have now sold over 1750$ worth of "standard" cards, and I what did I do with it? I bought legacy staples that I was missing, 2 goys, a bunch of blue staples, wastelands, Aether Vials, Survival of the Fittest, etc, and spent about 800$.
I am done with standard. Its a money sink. Every dime I spent in a card in legacy was worth it, every dime I spend in Standard is not worth it, as the card drops in price after rotation, unlike legacy staples.
If you want a true investment in Magic as cards, not short term stock exchange like standard is, invest in Legacy staples, and enjoy the full game of magic, not just the last 2 sets + core.
That's my 2 cents.
Stratgan
It actually shouldn't be more expensive. The main reason that Vintage is expensive is because it contains decks with scarce cards. For example, the Power, random tutors from Portal, etc...
These cards are only at the insane prices they are because of the Wizards Reprint Policy. That policy was a mistake, the major Vintage supporters are opposed to that policy. Unfortunately Wizards can't go back and undo that policy, as much as we'd like them to, and because of that Vintage doesn't get the following it deserves.
The smartest thing we can do, as Standard players, is learn from the mistakes of Vintage and ask Wizards to ALWAYS reprint our staple cards in the base set. Since the base set (M11, in this case) will be coming out in the middle of Standard season, and since Standard is the most popular format for gamers who are, by and large, establishing themselves, it makes sense
What I mean is, formats like Extended and Legacy are played by people who have been with Magic longer and, at the tournament level, can tolerate the higher costs, whereas Standard hosts events like FNM, cash tournaments and the like, where people are going to be "newer" and expect lower prices. The only way to realistically achieve that is for Wizards to reprint, they are never going to catch every 4x Staple and prevent it from being Mythic, nor do they want to (Planeswalkers at rare are not their goal), but they can keep them in print which will lower prices.
Until Legacy ceases to be viable for tournaments as the prices of duals, forces, and other staple cards continues to rise. Legacy tournaments in the US are a joke compared to the ones in Europe, and unfortunately mistakes by tournament organizers in the US have hurt the Vintage / Legacy scene, likely beyond repair.
This isn't a thread to discuss those formats though, I bring them up only to point out that those formats were priced out of popularity not because any one card in print (Tarmogoyf for example) shot through the roof but because the manabase necessary to build the most powerful decks became ridiculously expensive.
Wizards has done a good job in Zendikar block with printing great mana-fixing at reasonable prices. There are some of the best uncommon mana-fixers there have been in a long time, to the point where even tournament decks are using some of the "casual" oriented mana fixing. It's great. I have confidence they will find a solution to any other problems to hit a "fair" price point on Walkers. I think $40 ~ $50 is that price point for the "ultra chase Mythic" that we don't want to blow past, because there is a significant difference between $400 ~ $500 tournament decks (Control has always been expensive) and $750 ~ $1000 tournament decks.
I also think we may just bet on the rotation. Part of the reason for the dominance of certain 'walker-heavy Control builds is that the decks that would beat such a deck just cannot beat Jund. I have a deck I call the "Hate Stick" that can at least fight UW Control and wrecks Superfriends (no, I will never post a list because someone will run it) but it losses 100% of the time to Jund. If Jund was gone, that deck would be viable. The best part? The "Hate Stick" deck can be built for under $150.
Spike School
Spike doesn't think. Spike doesn't feel. Spike doesn't laugh or cry. All Spike does from dusk till dawn is make the Johnnys die
Not really. The Mythic blowback is because Wizards created a new class of "super rares" that are even rarer than normal rares, and then went and did exactly what they said they wouldn't do and started printing tournament staples at this rarity. If Jace was a normal rare, he would not be worth anywhere close to $80. He's a strong card that sees play in many decks as a 3 or 4 of. Sounds like Bitterblossom, or Mutavault...cards that were never even close to $80, but could easily have been if they were mythic. The Mythic blowback is justified because Mythic rarity is clearly a strong contributor to Jace, Gideon, and Vengevine's absurd prices.
I agree with you about reprinting Jace in the core set as a way to (probably) lower his value, but the real culprit is Wizards inability to stick to their ideals and keep tournament staples out of Mythic Rarity. I hope Wizards has the foresight to fix this problem before it gets out of control because while people are willing to shell out the $$ for Jaces and Gideons now, I doubt they will be willing to do so every 3 months when a new set comes out with the same setup of mythic rares being better for tournament play.
This makes absolutely no sense. If everyone is on equal footing to begin with (has access to the same cards) then the game is entirely about skill. If people are not on equal footing and said "noobs" are unable to get the best cards, then the game is not about skill, it's about who has more money to sink into having the best cards.
If two players have an identical deck and play each other 100 games and one of the players wins 80 of them, chances are that player is more skilled (although there are some luck elements, like mana screw, etc.). If one player is playing an $800 deck with the best cards in standard, and the other player is playing a $40 deck with crappy rares, and the $800 deck guy wins 80 times out of 100, can you say that he's simply more passionate or skilled at the game? You might even say that the guy with the $40 deck is more skilled at the game for having even won 20 times, because there is such a natural mismatch in terms of deck quality to begin with, that the "noob" has almost no chance of winning, outside of significantly outplaying his opponent.
Everyone having access to the same cards would certainly not make the game a mess. Instead it would make the game truly great, because more people would be able to play the game, leading to an increase in skilled players playing magic, and thus increasing the overall quality in play, and it would make the game less about "who has the ability to acquire the better cards" and instead about "who is the more skilled player."
I dream of a magic online where you pay a monthly fee that gives you access to 4 of every card in standard so long as you are paying the fee. You can play any card you want, and build any deck you want and play them in tournaments. You are playing opponents who are likewise using the best cards at their disposal, so you are never winning or losing purely on $$. I would love that so much, and I'm sure I'm not alone. I currently spend $0 on Magic Online, but if they released this I would be spending $10-$20 a month easily. The only reason I can assume Wizards doesn't do this is because they probably make so much money off of people paying $10-$15 a draft that it probably balances out the 2-3 times more users they would almost certainly have with such a system.
What decks pre Lorwyn where $400-$500?
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Or better yet, play both, but only play a certain amount of Standard.
If the price of cards is a problem of course.
Odd. I thought part of it had to do with who is selling/trading the card.
For example, I bought a near mint Mox Sapphire recently for $500.00. Yet the same card in the same condition across town is going for $750.00.
That's strange how that is Wizard's fault. I would think it would be the both the fault of Wizard's and the fault of the seller.
Why is that the fault of the seller? Are we expecting sellers to give up cards they paid $500 for at less than $500? That's ridiculous. If cards remain in print, the price is limited by exactly how many boosters you have to open to get those cards, and the value of every other card in the set. For example, if every other card in Worldwake was worth exactly $0, and you got 1 Jace per two booster boxs, then as long as Worldwake was in print the limit for the price of Jace would be $160.
Now to make it simple, if you reprint Jace in a set with more EV in the other cards (a core set) then that number changes. If, for example, you have 3 potential mythics that are valuable (Jace, Baneslayer, Tarmagoyf) the price of any one of those cards will be lower. This is why reprints are important, they create a price control in the form of "I can always open boosters"
Spike School
Spike doesn't think. Spike doesn't feel. Spike doesn't laugh or cry. All Spike does from dusk till dawn is make the Johnnys die
QFT.
I dream of a world where every single can be bought at a reasonable price, and everbody has their set of Tarmogoyf and Jace 2.0. The Elspeth/Tezzeret duel decks brings that dream closer to reality ( everbody, get your elspeths asap !). And the more Wizard reprints such cards the lower their value in the secondary market and the easier they will be to get.
Cards are meant to be played, if someone wants to collect them as an investment or have high values, should go to invest in wall street. Things like the reserve list and the greedy players who want their Jace 2.0 prices to go skyrocket are a cancer for the magic community.
There will still always be a collector's market. You can do that with Judge's Foils, special editions, misprints, and the first printing of cards. For example, an Alpha Birds of Paradise is obviously worth more than an M10 Birds of Paradise. The cards will also always have some value, Baneslayer was $40 ~ $50 and Tarmogoyf was expensive even while in-print.
But yes, reprinting our staples in the core sets will keep those prices at $50 or below, which is FAR more accessible than if the cards are breaking the $100 price point. It's just economics, there are a lot more buyers of $500 decks than there are of $1000 decks.
Also, if cards are being reprinted, then people can carry-forward expensive cards for a bit longer.
Spike School
Spike doesn't think. Spike doesn't feel. Spike doesn't laugh or cry. All Spike does from dusk till dawn is make the Johnnys die
Sure, you're right.
yeah, i completely agree. I've noticed some of my friends (I'm still in highschool) spend like 1000$ every month. Why? Parents that spoil their kid. And when they do work, they start spending $1500 a month. X( not cool.
Anyways, if everyone stops buying jace the mind sculptor, the price will drop.
Low Quantity+High Demand=Ridiculous Prices.
P.S
I'd like to add that MTG has ruined the game for people who still wanna play old cards. Adding baneslayer angel made some cards look weak. The cost for it is ridiculous. The MTG staff must be high when they created cards like that.
Idk why jace the mind sculptor is so high, it's a great card, but I mainly want it because he is my favourite planeswalker.
Cheers
EndlessEcho
Why would I buy Vintage when no one plays it, and there are no tournaments for it? If I want to actually play the game(constructed) on any kind of regular basis, I HAVE to play standard.
exactly. Standard is the most widely available tournament wise so it's prices need to be kept below that of extended and legacy/vintage. I think subrosian has it right by saying that wizards needs to reprint staples to keep prices down. Although they won't reprint tarmogoyf anytime soon I wouldn't be suprised if jace2 or baneslayer will get reprinted.
Had such a deck been printed when Shards was released, the price of Elspeth would have been capped at whatever the decks retailed for, but Wizards didn't do that. Instead they gave folks almost two years to crack packs looking for the chase mythic then pulled the rug out from under them by cutting nearly $10 bucks off the value at the point when those folks would be looking to move them.
The result is that folks that got in early for less than $20 will still see a return on investment, but everyone else is going to loose money so that Wizards can mint twenties for a few months and then watch those cards rotate and loose most of their value. This is the ultimate example of what Wizards thinks about its valued customers- we're just there to be brutalized for profit with no consideration given as to how long we'll take it. If they continue to do things like this they will kill the game.
1. Standard will still change, the introduction of expansion sets will continue, which is what changes the format.
2. Reprinting Jace in M11 will have ZERO impact on how long he is in the format, as Zendikar and M11 will rotate at the same time.
Spike School
Spike doesn't think. Spike doesn't feel. Spike doesn't laugh or cry. All Spike does from dusk till dawn is make the Johnnys die