Players make the prices. If everyone wants a card then demand goes up but since so many of that one card is printed the supply is limited, so prices goes up, if cards didnt vary so much in power and usefullness prices wouldnt be as high as they are.
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I am petitioning for the end of: the Mythic rarity, the Planeswalker card type, the post-8th edition card faces, the 2010 rule changes, colorless cards that aren't artifacts or lands, the Legendary supertype, the stack, auras, multicolor cards, artifact creatures, tokens, goblins, merfolk, elves, sorceries, instants, and permanents. Basically, I just want to play with purple contraptions.
Players make the prices. If everyone wants a card then demand goes up but since so many of that one card is printed the supply is limited, so prices goes up, if cards didnt vary so much in power and usefullness prices wouldnt be as high as they are.
Well no, wouldn't that mean Wizards essentially makes the prices based on how playable or good they make a certain card and at what rarity they print it? Seeing as that controls both supply and demand...
Furthermore, things like Vampire Nocturnus, despite seeing ZERO play or use currently, are still 10$+ simply because they're mythic and once boasted a heavy price tag.
Well no, wouldn't that mean Wizards essentially makes the prices based on how playable or good they make a certain card and at what rarity they print it? Seeing as that controls both supply and demand...
Furthermore, things like Vampire Nocturnus, despite seeing ZERO play or use currently, are still 10$+ simply because they're mythic and once boasted a heavy price tag.
Promo or non-promo Nocturnus?
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I am petitioning for the end of: the Mythic rarity, the Planeswalker card type, the post-8th edition card faces, the 2010 rule changes, colorless cards that aren't artifacts or lands, the Legendary supertype, the stack, auras, multicolor cards, artifact creatures, tokens, goblins, merfolk, elves, sorceries, instants, and permanents. Basically, I just want to play with purple contraptions.
Furthermore, things like Vampire Nocturnus, despite seeing ZERO play or use currently, are still 10$+ simply because they're mythic and once boasted a heavy price tag.
Massive, massive casual appeal is to blame for Nocturnus specifically. Vampires are a fairly cheap deck all told (Hexmage, Gatekeeper, Nighthawk, and Nocturnus, removal, discard, and whatever other vampires you feel like and you've got yourself a solid casual deck), plus they're pretty stylish. While some mythics retain pretty hefty value solely for being mythic, it's not the case at all that they boast any exceptional prices when you look at the market for them. I mean, the two Nocturni side by side basically prove that people are willing to pay a fair markup (i.e. demand exists) just for the M10 art, whereas if they weren't you'd see more parity between the two prices.
Massive, massive casual appeal is to blame for Nocturnus specifically. Vampires are a fairly cheap deck all told (Hexmage, Gatekeeper, Nighthawk, and Nocturnus, removal, discard, and whatever other vampires you feel like and you've got yourself a solid casual deck), plus they're pretty stylish. While some mythics retain pretty hefty value solely for being mythic, it's not the case at all that they boast any exceptional prices when you look at the market for them. I mean, the two Nocturni side by side basically prove that people are willing to pay a fair markup (i.e. demand exists) just for the M10 art, whereas if they weren't you'd see more parity between the two prices.
Sliver Queen had a similar story but was only 20$ after the many years it took to reach Time Spiral (last time I checked her price). Checking her now, she's still 20$.
Now of course popular casual cards will reach a decent price tag after an extended period of time, but Nocturnus holding 10$ after he rotates (being 25$ at prime usage and a 12-15$ when Vampires was only somewhat used) is not a good example of this. Nocturnus holding this tag is more akin to Planeswalkers coming out at 50$ dollars before dropping to 15$ lately, with the exception of Tezz who went the other way basically.
As for the promos, they are usually always cheaper than the regular version, whether it be Figure or Nocturnus a 30% price difference is easily explained by their old market value where the promo was 10-15$ while the regular was 15-25$... If we saw a parity, there would be an issue with price adjustment, not with how mythics influence the costs of cards.
my only complaint about the price of cards these days is this JACE...JACE...JACE... need I say any more? That 1 card has officially made ALL other rares almost not even worth the paper they are printed on...YES Jace is a good card... so is plenty of other cards, mythic or not... but JACE (a. k.a. BIG DADDY) has tanked the market...there is NO point in trading now, all cards except about 10-15 are under $2.00 in each block... why not only print those 10-15 cards and forget the rest I say.
I agree that a mythic card should be just that, mythic in power and story. If you keep printing them they loose their value, both in money and story. Not all commons are equal. Just as not all uncommons, rares, or mythics are equal. Deal with it.
It is a GAME!! If you only have fun when winning you are not normal, but I know I could play a deck and win constantly, but have no fun. I like playing a game where I don't know what might happen, were my adrenaline is pumping. If you can't have any fun without winning you have more problems than not being able to afford cards and you probably were alone on the playground in gradeschool cause no one wanted to be around you.
If you really wanted to play in the PT or go to worlds. You would find a way to make a comparing deck. That does not mean having all the best, though it would help. Whether it be money or through creativity, you would find a way.
Now, with that said, I think what they should have is a "paupers" PT and worlds where only commons and uncommons are allowed. I think it would cause wizards to create cards that have synergy at lower rarity levels. It would also allow people who have fallen on hard times to compete at a larger level competatively. I think it would also create some interesting decks/combos that are already there, but not used because there are "better" ones.
We also need to get back to the idea of trading. It seems like card games have gotten away from this. Along with the draft mechanic. I think it requires more skill to create competitive draft decks than construction. I think they should have more emphasis on the drafting tournaments.
I may be crazy, and off base on everything, but that's my two cents. And some more change out of my pocket. Lol.
Also, as my form of boycotting I will no longer buy individual cards. I will do drafts, trade, and buy packs only. I will make decks out of cards I have won, traded, drafted or opened myself. Never again will I buy a card to build a deck. I think it will force me to be more creative and I will enjoy the deck I play because I earned the cards. Now, I'm not saying I won't look online for ideas, but I won't buy individual cards.
I love seeing how many people are posting on here for others to quit "whining" or "complaining" about prices in a thread titled "The 'Complain about Standard prices' thread" =D.
I agree that a mythic card should be just that, mythic in power and story. If you keep printing them they loose their value, both in money and story. Not all commons are equal. Just as not all uncommons, rares, or mythics are equal. Deal with it.
Being slightly more common as a card does not significantly impact the story of the magic universe. Karn, for instance, as a rare creature felt just as real (if not more so) than Jace. Rarity effects many values, but not story.
It is a GAME!! If you only have fun when winning you are not normal, but I know I could play a deck and win constantly, but have no fun. I like playing a game where I don't know what might happen, were my adrenaline is pumping. If you can't have any fun without winning you have more problems than not being able to afford cards and you probably were alone on the playground in gradeschool cause no one wanted to be around you.
Have you ever been to an FNM with a bad deck you thought was really neat, then got trounced by someone's nine hundred dollar netdeck? I have. It wasn't fun. Don't get me wrong... win or lose, I have fun... but only if the game is close. Being beat down without a chance is just as unfun as winning without a challenge. I play a strategy game to outplay other players... to do this I must have a competitive deck. While I have never netdecked in my life, my homebrewed decks carry hefty price tags due to all those powerful mythics. If I trounce a few noobies in the first round or two of an FNM, so be it. I can take the time after the fast games to show them how to make more competitive budget decks. Mythics also tend to have more unique and playable abilities/effects that are necessary to make a nifty idea work (Fauna shaman vengevine recursion... primeval titan eldrazi/valakut... Jace squadron hawk [admit it... that ancestral recall feels pretty damned good to pull off])
If you really wanted to play in the PT or go to worlds. You would find a way to make a comparing deck. That does not mean having all the best, though it would help. Whether it be money or through creativity, you would find a way.
If you have pro ambitions, you literally need playsets of every top tier card you can find. At the pro level, you cannot pilot only a single deck and hope it gets there. metagames shift, and you need to be prepared to pick up and play a new deck in less than a week's notice.
creativity and skill with a lot of luck will get you to the pro tour... but to win it, you need to have the bank.
Now, with that said, I think what they should have is a "paupers" PT and worlds where only commons and uncommons are allowed. I think it would cause wizards to create cards that have synergy at lower rarity levels. It would also allow people who have fallen on hard times to compete at a larger level competatively. I think it would also create some interesting decks/combos that are already there, but not used because there are "better" ones.
LOL
with only a few seconds consideration I see the flaw in this plan. It costs thousands of dollars in travel expenses, room, and board to go to a pro tour. With all of that cost, decks made up of cards you've already earned through playing are a VERY small consideration. I'm only top 30 in my state, and I win enough to have immediate access to any deck I should care to play. Pros are the same way, except more so. Pauper would not magically allow anyone without the money to invest to magically appear at a pro tour. Additionally, both Worlds and PT are invitationals. Now... pauper for open events like PTQ or GP is an idea I can sort of get behind as an additional format.
We also need to get back to the idea of trading. It seems like card games have gotten away from this. Along with the draft mechanic. I think it requires more skill to create competitive draft decks than construction. I think they should have more emphasis on the drafting tournaments.
More than a third of all GPs are draft. Draft makes up at least a third of PT play. Draft receives almost as much support as standard for 5K events. Trust me... it's supported.
I may be crazy, and off base on everything, but that's my two cents. And some more change out of my pocket. Lol.
Don't worry about it... I'm more than happy to tell you where you were off base.
Nevertheless, thank you for sharing your opinions and ideas.
Also, as my form of boycotting I will no longer buy individual cards. I will do drafts, trade, and buy packs only. I will make decks out of cards I have won, traded, drafted or opened myself. Never again will I buy a card to build a deck. I think it will force me to be more creative and I will enjoy the deck I play because I earned the cards. Now, I'm not saying I won't look online for ideas, but I won't buy individual cards.
I am the inverse of that. Because the value of the average pack is so little, I don't buy boxes. I play in events, win prize packs and cash prizes, then purchase playsets of whatever key cards I haven't opened.
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This right here is BY FAR the BEST post i've EVR read on this website in my life. i don't think i've ever laughed so hard during a serious heated debate. and has been mentioned earlier, sums up the whole thread.
Give Jace a rest. Let himm get his time in the spotlight so he can cycle and remain in the collectors binder. No use complaining now. wizards won't ban a card from standard when it will naturally be cycling in about 6 months
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UCHIHA ITACHI FLOWCHART
1) Genjutsu before battle. Did it work? if yes go to 3 If not go to 2
2) Tsukuyomi if worked go to 7 if not go to 4
3) Attack the confused enemy. If it worked, go to 7, if not go to 2
4) Ninjutsu. If it worked go to 7 if not go to 5
5) Amaterasu. If it worked go to 7, if not go to 6
6) Susano'o. If it worked go to 7, If not go to 8
7) Itachi wins
8) Itachi loses
I've been playing standard Magic for the last 10 years, and I have every desire to keep playing. However, there are a few factors, and one of them is not price!
1. Only local players play in Columbus, Georgia. I have to drive an hour out, sometimes farther north in Georgia, sometimes all the way to Alabama, if I even want to consider playing an FNM or tournament. While I would if I had the time, it's still a bit much to ask for someone who never really played all that competitively, but still enjoys the game.
2. My girlfriend, hopefully future wife someday, has changed my aspect on money. Nowadays, as much money as I can goes to savings for our future someday. (I promise this post has some complaint about the prices, so bare with me.)
3. Being a college student, as many people may know, restricts you to some degree on how much money you can spend at any given moment, especially under the reminder that you're in fact saving up for a more important future event.
The solution, as I see it, is simple: don't play anymore standard until Jace rotates out. I do want to play some form of blue, but I can't because I don't have $400 dollars. Well I do, but given my situation it can't really go to Jaces right now. Once the $100 card rotates out, it seems to me that everything else hovering around $20 will become the higher priced cards; and THAT is something I can deal with. I could give $80 to a playset of good cards, not $80 towards almost buying one card that is all but required to play competitive Magic.
It seems to me though that there are many solutions to the current Standard format pricing, the main of which is buying other, less expensive - but still good - cards. I mean, where did all of the hatred/love go for Primeval Titan and Vengevine? Those are some of the best green cards printed in recent memory - now alongside Green Sun's Zenith - and people are still focusing on Jace? Doesn't exactly seem realistic, at least to me. Good decks are still out there without the need for Jace so that you can play blue.
I do have one question about one particular card. It's not exactly a complaint as much as it is...and inquiry. I haven't been playing Magic within the last year or so, and haven't been following it as regularly, but there is one card that has peaked my interest.
Stoneforge Mystic: anyone care to explain why the hell THAT jumped up to $20 a piece? Did people suddenly wake up and realize some of the equipments can be good? Are people playing WW more frequently? Is there another format where it is thriving? (If so, I'd guess Legacy, but what do I know...) I'm not angry by any means about this; in fact, I'm actually quite happy! Back in the day when I played more frequently, I played Boros, and added a playset of these puppies for the future artifact set, and I was lucky enough to get these at around $6 a pop. And I'll be honest, I thought even THAT was a bit expensive for something like this. Any explanations at all?
Sword of feast and famine got printed, making a fish aggro control deck featuring 4 mystics and 4 squadron hawks not only viable, but dominant. Cawblade took a pro tour by storm, and has been taking over half the top 8 spots in each standard since. Mystic + the sword have also become strong players in extended and even in some legacy deck. I bought/traded for a couple dozen mystics when they were 2 bucks a piece. So glad I did.
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Jace is at $109. I feel like selling mine. I love blue, too...grrrrr
Yep, I've been tormenting myself about this too, especially since I haven't used the Jaces in any tournament; just for playtesting.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Jace could end up just like Tarmogoyf did, carrying a hefty price tag in other formats. Jace is def. going to see play in extended until Zendikar block rotates. Demand for him may stay constant or increase as extended waxes and wanes.
I'm holding onto mine for use in extended. of course, it's a gamble as far as possible future value goes. As long as I play them, I don't really care.
Less people play extended and many other decks are viable in that format than standard meaning there will be a lot more Jaces than demand for them. They will in turn decrease in value some, i'd say hovering around the $50-60 mark.
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RBVampires of Oxid RidgeBR RMythic RedR RRDWR
EDH GRBAdun OakenshieldBRG
As somebody who has just gotten started into real life MTG and MTGO a few months ago, I can tell you that MTG is not friendly to new players at all. This whole experience so far has been a journey into madness, despair, and obsession. I feel dirty for falling for Mattel/WotC's money-making grab bag. Not to say that I won't continue to play MTG, but I feel like I'm a lot more leery and world-weary of the game and its practices.
Not to get into pages and pages of my life's MTG story, I started out cursing how much WotC screwed up DotP with the 3rd expansion, and the unaltered Soria deck that totally f'ed up the balance of the other decks. I saw how insane the Eldrazi cards were and decided to stop playing "pretend MTG" and play it for real. I build a bunch of decks online without actually buying a card, based on the searchability of MagicCards.info and my "experience" with DotP (though I'd played real MTG for a short time 12 years ago).
Then I started buying cards. I bought a few booster boxes to get started (RotE and M11; certainly not Worldwake), as well as a crappy set of random commons/uncommons from Ebay. I learned the hard way that buying indiv common/uncommon cards for 25 cent each online is a f'ing ripoff. Organizing, organizing, organizing, organizing, getting more cards in the mail, leaving a huge mess on the kitchen table, organizing, organizing, getting more cards in the mail, organizing. I then bought the remaining cards (rares and mythics) for my first decks for an embarrassing amount of money. (I am still using those cards for trading material now.)
Then I did the only option I had available to me: go to local tourneys to "practice". I thought my decks were awesome. They were not. G/R Eldrazi Spawn. Loss. Burn Copy Rebound. Loss. BW Life Gain. Loss. I made plenty of rookie mistakes, but the secret was in the decks I was going against. I started to recognize the prices of the cards being played. Here comes Big Money Jace. I started to hate that card.
And after about 6-7 tourneys of total losses, I started to figure out 90% of the decks were identical. Valakut, Cawblade, Goblin/0 Artifact/Landfall Win, UW (or UB) Jace Control, Tezzeret Artifact, etc. I started to passionately hate cards like Go for the Throat and Goblin Bushwhacker and that stupid Squadron Hawk. And these decks are BORING to play against! Typical, repeatable, predictable, uncreative, yet they win every time. When I jumped into MTGO, the problem is even worse. Valakut, Goblin, Valakut, Cawblade, Goblin, Goblin, Goblin, Cawblade, UW Jace Control. I could tell you EXACTLY what deck they were playing with after a single non-land card, but I could not beat them with the non-common decks I was playing with.
And the planewalkers! I find out that planewalkers are required in almost every single deck, and most of the good ones are $30-50 a piece. Do people want to trade my good cards (like good $10-20 cards) for planeswalkers? No. They are too rare to give up. I ask if anybody has any Jace's to trade with and they just laugh at me. Everybody is already using theirs.
Wizards of the Coast knows what they were doing when they introduced Mythic Rares and Planeswalkers. They were money makers. Just do the math: 1/8 chance of getting one PER $3-5 booster pack. And you usually need a complete 4x set. Of the same card. That you have a 1/8 chance of seeing (a mythic, not the mythic you want) in an entire booster pack. The entire Worldwake series is damn near unbuyable because of the Jace lottery. $200 for a booster box? You might as well just buy your two Jaces and be done with it.
Not to mention the price of certain cards that, while may be pretty basic on the surface, are suddenly outrageous. When I first saw Primeval Titan on MagicCards.info, I thought it was a good card, but I scratched my head at the $50/each price tag. Then I saw Valakut and understood. Stoneforge Mystic isn't a bad card; oh, it's in Cawblade. Same with the B/G and U/G swords. WotC posts the winning pro deck lists just so that people can plagiarize these decks verbatim, buy the cards, and be a winner. Then the game turns into a boring rat race against the same 5-6 decks.
Big Money Jace isn't the only problem, but it's a great example for people to point to. If it came out earlier in MTG's history, it would be a banned or restricted card. But, WotC's motto now is "if a card is already insane, make other insane cards to counter it... and make sure they are mythic rare so that it costs a fortune to buy it". Jace will always be expensive, and will always be used in even Legacy decks.
In the game of Standard MTG, you have three choices:
1. Buy into the BS, copy the pro lists, and win.
2. Play the Timmy, try to figure out decks that can beat the common ones, and lose, lose, lose, lose.
3. Create "casual" decks that nobody will actually play you with, and could be beaten with the usual tourney deck.
So far, I'm still going for option #2, because it's against my religion to fall for #1. Don't get me wrong; I have the utmost respect for the pro-players that invented Valakut, invented Cawblade, etc. They are Timmy/Spikes, who figured something out on their own, and created a great pro deck with it. I, however, cannot respect it when people just copy a deck list and play with it, especially when it ruins the fun of the game and drives up card prices. There are 1200 cards in Standard currently, so why are people so damn focused on 30 of them?
Option #2, however, is not easy, insanely frustrating, and just increases my pessimism for MTG in general. It's not easy being a Timmy/Spike. The MTGO experience has basically just accelerated what I would be experiencing over the course of a few months of RL MTG. WU Infect/Proliferate. Loss. Myr Flash Denile. Loss. WUG Ally Milling. Loss, but still working on it.
A week or two more of this, and I may just wave my middle finger at Standard MTG forever and move on to something like Extended or Pauper. It's been depressing.
(What the hell did you RL MTG players do to Portal? Did you hate it so much that you had deck burning bonfires to get rid of the cards, thus increasing the rarity and prices? Did people mail back their fat packs to WotC in droves, demanding refunds?)
It seems to me though that there are many solutions to the current Standard format pricing, the main of which is buying other, less expensive - but still good - cards. I mean, where did all of the hatred/love go for Primeval Titan and Vengevine? Those are some of the best green cards printed in recent memory - now alongside Green Sun's Zenith - and people are still focusing on Jace? Doesn't exactly seem realistic, at least to me. Good decks are still out there without the need for Jace so that you can play blue.
Huh? Both of those creatures are $40 each, or $160 for a set. How is it that much different than Big Money Jace? GSZ is going up about as much as a non-Mythic Rare card can go (about $10 each now), and it's mainly for the Primeval Titan and other high priced green giants. All of the other Zeniths are great cards, but they aren't $10 each because there is no pro combo that people are abusing with them.
Stoneforge Mystic: anyone care to explain why the hell THAT jumped up to $20 a piece? Did people suddenly wake up and realize some of the equipments can be good? Are people playing WW more frequently? Is there another format where it is thriving? (If so, I'd guess Legacy, but what do I know...) I'm not angry by any means about this; in fact, I'm actually quite happy! Back in the day when I played more frequently, I played Boros, and added a playset of these puppies for the future artifact set, and I was lucky enough to get these at around $6 a pop. And I'll be honest, I thought even THAT was a bit expensive for something like this. Any explanations at all?[/color]
It's a critical card in Cawblade. WotC decided to create an insane set of Mythic swords, so now the Mystic and Swords are pretty high up in price. Just one deck. That's what one deck can do to the prices.
(What the hell did you RL MTG players do to Portal? Did you hate it so much that you had deck burning bonfires to get rid of the cards, thus increasing the rarity and prices? Did people mail back their fat packs to WotC in droves, demanding refunds?)
It's a critical card in Cawblade. WotC decided to create an insane set of Mythic swords, so now the Mystic and Swords are pretty high up in price. Just one deck. That's what one deck can do to the prices.
One deck? Stoneforge also sees play in Boros, GW Quest, and the Mono-white decks that casual/semi-casual tournament players are so fond of.
The prices of magic are about the same for competitive decks as they used to be. This has been beaten to death by the financial pros. Now, instead of having to buy multiple 20-40 dollar rares, your rares are less than 10 dollars. The mythics are just rares, + the additional money that was lost on the lower prices of normal rares. Jace may be an exception to this rule, but as a whole the game is the exact same price it used to be. The only problem with Jace was he was opened in a second set(so a single pack by drafters), and three months later the draft format was triple Eldrazi. But I am digressing.
The price of mythics will naturally be higher than rares. However, if you look at non-Jace competetive decks, such as Boros, RDW, Valakut, Eldrazi, whatever, their prices will be comparable to Faeries or Jund or Elves or whatever. Jace is the only card throwing off this curve.
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THE THOUGHTHAMMER HAS SPOKEN!
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
One deck? Stoneforge also sees play in Boros, GW Quest, and the Mono-white decks that casual/semi-casual tournament players are so fond of.
Well, maybe in some offshoots, but it's always Mystic + Sword of FF/BM + Squadron Hawk. That's Cawblade. Cawblade, Cawblade, Cawblade, Cawblade, Cawblade. Boros = Cawblade + Goblin/Artifact aggro. It's just mixing two decks together, but it's essentially the same combo cards. There's one in there as Cawblade + Fauna/Vengevine. It's like putting cheese on a burger; it still mostly tastes like one without cheese, and it's not a brand new sandwich.
And nobody uses Quest if they have the Mystic. The Quest is just a cheaper and less effective Mystic.
The prices of magic are about the same for competitive decks as they used to be. This has been beaten to death by the financial pros. Now, instead of having to buy multiple 20-40 dollar rares, your rares are less than 10 dollars. The mythics are just rares, + the additional money that was lost on the lower prices of normal rares.
Again, do the math. Back before MRs, every booster pack had one rare, and rares were the limit. You had a equal chance of getting any of the rares in that set. It could be a good rare or a junk rare, but everybody had an equal chance. Let's take Morningtide as an example pre-MR set. It has 50 rares, so that's a 50:1 chance to get the rare you want.
With Mythics, you only have a 1/8 chance of getting a MR per booster. Rise of the Eldrazi had 15 MRs, so that's a 120:1 chance of getting the MR you want. All of the really good cards are MRs, and all Planeswalkers have been and will always be Mythic Rares. So, in general, the more MRs you have, the better your deck will be.
Now, market does drive price, but so does actual rarity. If it's really, really hard to get a card by drafting or buying packs AND it's a good card that everybody plays, the usual supply/demand mantra applies and the price goes up. No matter how good a common will be, it will NEVER be over a dollar. Mana Leak, as popular as it is, is still only 60 cents. This is because the commons are, well, common. You can buy 4-5 packs and probably get a set of a card that you want.
Going back to the rares/MRs and booster chances, here's how it looks from set to set:
Do you see a pattern? Ever since Mythic Rares, the really good cards have been super rare to get. It has never gone below 80:1, and 120:1 hits more often than not.
Higher rarity of getting a card = higher prices. Thus, your argument is mathematically incorrect.
The price of mythics will naturally be higher than rares. However, if you look at non-Jace competetive decks, such as Boros, RDW, Valakut, Eldrazi, whatever, their prices will be comparable to Faeries or Jund or Elves or whatever. Jace is the only card throwing off this curve.
It's not just Jace. Jace is a problem, but not the only problem. I can't look at historical prices because I have no idea where that kind of data exists. However, just look at the standard popular pro decks:
Vincent Lemoine's Cawblade/Boros (No Jace):
Arid Mesa - $12 x 4 = $48
Marsh Flats - $12 x 4 = $48
Scalding Tarn - $14 x 4 = $56
Goblin Guide - $9 x 4 = $36
Mirran Crusader - $6 x 4 = $24
Stoneforge Mystic - $21 x 4 = $84
Koth of the Hammer - $23 x 3 = $69
Sword of Body and Mind - $13 x 1 = $13
Sword of Feast and Famine - $23 x 1 = $23 Total price = $401
Patrick Chapin's Terrezet Artifact + Control (with and without Jace):
Creeping Tar Pit - $8 x 4 = $32
Darkslick Shores - $5 x 3 = $15
Inkmoth Nexus - $11 x 2 = $22
Scalding Tarn - $14 x 4 = $56
Wurmcoil Engine - $10 x 1 = $10
Mox Opal - $21 x 2 = $42
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas - $50 x 4 = $200
Ratchet Bomb - $6 x 1 = $6 Total Price = $383 without Jace and $787 with Jace
Nevermind the Jace price, but have you ever seen a $400 deck? Do you think a deck should cost that much? If I were to put together the best possible deck 5 years ago, do you think it would cost $400?
Not to mention that it's easy to look up the decks now. WotC just posts them online. It's basically a message that says "If you play with this deck, you'll win." So, millions of people play with these exact decks, and that drives up demand. And it ruins the game in general. People are no longer trying to perfect decks because the pros have already done so. "Look at this deck. If he won with it, it must have a big part to do with the cards."
(What the hell did you RL MTG players do to Portal? Did you hate it so much that you had deck burning bonfires to get rid of the cards, thus increasing the rarity and prices? Did people mail back their fat packs to WotC in droves, demanding refunds?)
Every time I look at a "pro" list, I note all the weaknesses in its design and compare it to previous perffected decks in the same archetype I'd made months before.
Most pros make mediocre decks. Mediocre decks can win tournaments.
Keep working on your deckbuilding skills. The more decks you build and the more games you play, the more intuitive your understanding of strategic value will become.
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There exists no certainty, only opportunity.
Those who hesitate in the face of greatness have already lost.
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I'll agree with the posters above me, at my current FNM we have the rank #16,28,30 & more for constructed in Australia - I always go just with a "casual" fun deck like my current UW Infect/Proliferate it's definitely not fun to be stomped time and time again and then being asked if i'm new or don't know about netdecking.
And it's all because to put together a deck that would be able to compete with them would need me to sink anywhere from $200 and upwards and for someone who only gets to play once maybe twice a month I don't want to be spending that sort of money just for the blocks to rotate soon and have to spend it again.
ITT: I miss when MTG was fun
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Well no, wouldn't that mean Wizards essentially makes the prices based on how playable or good they make a certain card and at what rarity they print it? Seeing as that controls both supply and demand...
Furthermore, things like Vampire Nocturnus, despite seeing ZERO play or use currently, are still 10$+ simply because they're mythic and once boasted a heavy price tag.
Promo or non-promo Nocturnus?
Non-promo is 10$ish, the promo is 7$ish if that.
Massive, massive casual appeal is to blame for Nocturnus specifically. Vampires are a fairly cheap deck all told (Hexmage, Gatekeeper, Nighthawk, and Nocturnus, removal, discard, and whatever other vampires you feel like and you've got yourself a solid casual deck), plus they're pretty stylish. While some mythics retain pretty hefty value solely for being mythic, it's not the case at all that they boast any exceptional prices when you look at the market for them. I mean, the two Nocturni side by side basically prove that people are willing to pay a fair markup (i.e. demand exists) just for the M10 art, whereas if they weren't you'd see more parity between the two prices.
Sliver Queen had a similar story but was only 20$ after the many years it took to reach Time Spiral (last time I checked her price). Checking her now, she's still 20$.
Now of course popular casual cards will reach a decent price tag after an extended period of time, but Nocturnus holding 10$ after he rotates (being 25$ at prime usage and a 12-15$ when Vampires was only somewhat used) is not a good example of this. Nocturnus holding this tag is more akin to Planeswalkers coming out at 50$ dollars before dropping to 15$ lately, with the exception of Tezz who went the other way basically.
As for the promos, they are usually always cheaper than the regular version, whether it be Figure or Nocturnus a 30% price difference is easily explained by their old market value where the promo was 10-15$ while the regular was 15-25$... If we saw a parity, there would be an issue with price adjustment, not with how mythics influence the costs of cards.
It is a GAME!! If you only have fun when winning you are not normal, but I know I could play a deck and win constantly, but have no fun. I like playing a game where I don't know what might happen, were my adrenaline is pumping. If you can't have any fun without winning you have more problems than not being able to afford cards and you probably were alone on the playground in gradeschool cause no one wanted to be around you.
If you really wanted to play in the PT or go to worlds. You would find a way to make a comparing deck. That does not mean having all the best, though it would help. Whether it be money or through creativity, you would find a way.
Now, with that said, I think what they should have is a "paupers" PT and worlds where only commons and uncommons are allowed. I think it would cause wizards to create cards that have synergy at lower rarity levels. It would also allow people who have fallen on hard times to compete at a larger level competatively. I think it would also create some interesting decks/combos that are already there, but not used because there are "better" ones.
We also need to get back to the idea of trading. It seems like card games have gotten away from this. Along with the draft mechanic. I think it requires more skill to create competitive draft decks than construction. I think they should have more emphasis on the drafting tournaments.
I may be crazy, and off base on everything, but that's my two cents. And some more change out of my pocket. Lol.
Also, as my form of boycotting I will no longer buy individual cards. I will do drafts, trade, and buy packs only. I will make decks out of cards I have won, traded, drafted or opened myself. Never again will I buy a card to build a deck. I think it will force me to be more creative and I will enjoy the deck I play because I earned the cards. Now, I'm not saying I won't look online for ideas, but I won't buy individual cards.
Being slightly more common as a card does not significantly impact the story of the magic universe. Karn, for instance, as a rare creature felt just as real (if not more so) than Jace. Rarity effects many values, but not story.
Have you ever been to an FNM with a bad deck you thought was really neat, then got trounced by someone's nine hundred dollar netdeck? I have. It wasn't fun. Don't get me wrong... win or lose, I have fun... but only if the game is close. Being beat down without a chance is just as unfun as winning without a challenge. I play a strategy game to outplay other players... to do this I must have a competitive deck. While I have never netdecked in my life, my homebrewed decks carry hefty price tags due to all those powerful mythics. If I trounce a few noobies in the first round or two of an FNM, so be it. I can take the time after the fast games to show them how to make more competitive budget decks. Mythics also tend to have more unique and playable abilities/effects that are necessary to make a nifty idea work (Fauna shaman vengevine recursion... primeval titan eldrazi/valakut... Jace squadron hawk [admit it... that ancestral recall feels pretty damned good to pull off])
If you have pro ambitions, you literally need playsets of every top tier card you can find. At the pro level, you cannot pilot only a single deck and hope it gets there. metagames shift, and you need to be prepared to pick up and play a new deck in less than a week's notice.
creativity and skill with a lot of luck will get you to the pro tour... but to win it, you need to have the bank.
LOL
with only a few seconds consideration I see the flaw in this plan. It costs thousands of dollars in travel expenses, room, and board to go to a pro tour. With all of that cost, decks made up of cards you've already earned through playing are a VERY small consideration. I'm only top 30 in my state, and I win enough to have immediate access to any deck I should care to play. Pros are the same way, except more so. Pauper would not magically allow anyone without the money to invest to magically appear at a pro tour. Additionally, both Worlds and PT are invitationals. Now... pauper for open events like PTQ or GP is an idea I can sort of get behind as an additional format.
More than a third of all GPs are draft. Draft makes up at least a third of PT play. Draft receives almost as much support as standard for 5K events. Trust me... it's supported.
Don't worry about it... I'm more than happy to tell you where you were off base.
Nevertheless, thank you for sharing your opinions and ideas.
I am the inverse of that. Because the value of the average pack is so little, I don't buy boxes. I play in events, win prize packs and cash prizes, then purchase playsets of whatever key cards I haven't opened.
Those who hesitate in the face of greatness have already lost.
I write for EoV. Feel free to check out my articles:
This right here is BY FAR the BEST post i've EVR read on this website in my life. i don't think i've ever laughed so hard during a serious heated debate. and has been mentioned earlier, sums up the whole thread.
Give Jace a rest. Let himm get his time in the spotlight so he can cycle and remain in the collectors binder. No use complaining now. wizards won't ban a card from standard when it will naturally be cycling in about 6 months
UCHIHA ITACHI FLOWCHART
1) Genjutsu before battle. Did it work? if yes go to 3 If not go to 2
2) Tsukuyomi if worked go to 7 if not go to 4
3) Attack the confused enemy. If it worked, go to 7, if not go to 2
4) Ninjutsu. If it worked go to 7 if not go to 5
5) Amaterasu. If it worked go to 7, if not go to 6
6) Susano'o. If it worked go to 7, If not go to 8
7) Itachi wins
8) Itachi loses
1. Only local players play in Columbus, Georgia. I have to drive an hour out, sometimes farther north in Georgia, sometimes all the way to Alabama, if I even want to consider playing an FNM or tournament. While I would if I had the time, it's still a bit much to ask for someone who never really played all that competitively, but still enjoys the game.
2. My girlfriend, hopefully future wife someday, has changed my aspect on money. Nowadays, as much money as I can goes to savings for our future someday. (I promise this post has some complaint about the prices, so bare with me.)
3. Being a college student, as many people may know, restricts you to some degree on how much money you can spend at any given moment, especially under the reminder that you're in fact saving up for a more important future event.
The solution, as I see it, is simple: don't play anymore standard until Jace rotates out. I do want to play some form of blue, but I can't because I don't have $400 dollars. Well I do, but given my situation it can't really go to Jaces right now. Once the $100 card rotates out, it seems to me that everything else hovering around $20 will become the higher priced cards; and THAT is something I can deal with. I could give $80 to a playset of good cards, not $80 towards almost buying one card that is all but required to play competitive Magic.
It seems to me though that there are many solutions to the current Standard format pricing, the main of which is buying other, less expensive - but still good - cards. I mean, where did all of the hatred/love go for Primeval Titan and Vengevine? Those are some of the best green cards printed in recent memory - now alongside Green Sun's Zenith - and people are still focusing on Jace? Doesn't exactly seem realistic, at least to me. Good decks are still out there without the need for Jace so that you can play blue.
I do have one question about one particular card. It's not exactly a complaint as much as it is...and inquiry. I haven't been playing Magic within the last year or so, and haven't been following it as regularly, but there is one card that has peaked my interest.
Stoneforge Mystic: anyone care to explain why the hell THAT jumped up to $20 a piece? Did people suddenly wake up and realize some of the equipments can be good? Are people playing WW more frequently? Is there another format where it is thriving? (If so, I'd guess Legacy, but what do I know...) I'm not angry by any means about this; in fact, I'm actually quite happy! Back in the day when I played more frequently, I played Boros, and added a playset of these puppies for the future artifact set, and I was lucky enough to get these at around $6 a pop. And I'll be honest, I thought even THAT was a bit expensive for something like this. Any explanations at all?
Those who hesitate in the face of greatness have already lost.
I write for EoV. Feel free to check out my articles:
Yep, I've been tormenting myself about this too, especially since I haven't used the Jaces in any tournament; just for playtesting.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Not sure where you get your prices.
He is readily available from online retailers at $95
Not really trading atm
BRVamps
I'm holding onto mine for use in extended. of course, it's a gamble as far as possible future value goes. As long as I play them, I don't really care.
Big Thanks to Xeno for sig art <3.
RMythic RedR
RRDWR
EDH
GRBAdun OakenshieldBRG
Not to get into pages and pages of my life's MTG story, I started out cursing how much WotC screwed up DotP with the 3rd expansion, and the unaltered Soria deck that totally f'ed up the balance of the other decks. I saw how insane the Eldrazi cards were and decided to stop playing "pretend MTG" and play it for real. I build a bunch of decks online without actually buying a card, based on the searchability of MagicCards.info and my "experience" with DotP (though I'd played real MTG for a short time 12 years ago).
Then I started buying cards. I bought a few booster boxes to get started (RotE and M11; certainly not Worldwake), as well as a crappy set of random commons/uncommons from Ebay. I learned the hard way that buying indiv common/uncommon cards for 25 cent each online is a f'ing ripoff. Organizing, organizing, organizing, organizing, getting more cards in the mail, leaving a huge mess on the kitchen table, organizing, organizing, getting more cards in the mail, organizing. I then bought the remaining cards (rares and mythics) for my first decks for an embarrassing amount of money. (I am still using those cards for trading material now.)
Then I did the only option I had available to me: go to local tourneys to "practice". I thought my decks were awesome. They were not. G/R Eldrazi Spawn. Loss. Burn Copy Rebound. Loss. BW Life Gain. Loss. I made plenty of rookie mistakes, but the secret was in the decks I was going against. I started to recognize the prices of the cards being played. Here comes Big Money Jace. I started to hate that card.
And after about 6-7 tourneys of total losses, I started to figure out 90% of the decks were identical. Valakut, Cawblade, Goblin/0 Artifact/Landfall Win, UW (or UB) Jace Control, Tezzeret Artifact, etc. I started to passionately hate cards like Go for the Throat and Goblin Bushwhacker and that stupid Squadron Hawk. And these decks are BORING to play against! Typical, repeatable, predictable, uncreative, yet they win every time. When I jumped into MTGO, the problem is even worse. Valakut, Goblin, Valakut, Cawblade, Goblin, Goblin, Goblin, Cawblade, UW Jace Control. I could tell you EXACTLY what deck they were playing with after a single non-land card, but I could not beat them with the non-common decks I was playing with.
And the planewalkers! I find out that planewalkers are required in almost every single deck, and most of the good ones are $30-50 a piece. Do people want to trade my good cards (like good $10-20 cards) for planeswalkers? No. They are too rare to give up. I ask if anybody has any Jace's to trade with and they just laugh at me. Everybody is already using theirs.
Wizards of the Coast knows what they were doing when they introduced Mythic Rares and Planeswalkers. They were money makers. Just do the math: 1/8 chance of getting one PER $3-5 booster pack. And you usually need a complete 4x set. Of the same card. That you have a 1/8 chance of seeing (a mythic, not the mythic you want) in an entire booster pack. The entire Worldwake series is damn near unbuyable because of the Jace lottery. $200 for a booster box? You might as well just buy your two Jaces and be done with it.
Not to mention the price of certain cards that, while may be pretty basic on the surface, are suddenly outrageous. When I first saw Primeval Titan on MagicCards.info, I thought it was a good card, but I scratched my head at the $50/each price tag. Then I saw Valakut and understood. Stoneforge Mystic isn't a bad card; oh, it's in Cawblade. Same with the B/G and U/G swords. WotC posts the winning pro deck lists just so that people can plagiarize these decks verbatim, buy the cards, and be a winner. Then the game turns into a boring rat race against the same 5-6 decks.
Big Money Jace isn't the only problem, but it's a great example for people to point to. If it came out earlier in MTG's history, it would be a banned or restricted card. But, WotC's motto now is "if a card is already insane, make other insane cards to counter it... and make sure they are mythic rare so that it costs a fortune to buy it". Jace will always be expensive, and will always be used in even Legacy decks.
In the game of Standard MTG, you have three choices:
1. Buy into the BS, copy the pro lists, and win.
2. Play the Timmy, try to figure out decks that can beat the common ones, and lose, lose, lose, lose.
3. Create "casual" decks that nobody will actually play you with, and could be beaten with the usual tourney deck.
So far, I'm still going for option #2, because it's against my religion to fall for #1. Don't get me wrong; I have the utmost respect for the pro-players that invented Valakut, invented Cawblade, etc. They are Timmy/Spikes, who figured something out on their own, and created a great pro deck with it. I, however, cannot respect it when people just copy a deck list and play with it, especially when it ruins the fun of the game and drives up card prices. There are 1200 cards in Standard currently, so why are people so damn focused on 30 of them?
Option #2, however, is not easy, insanely frustrating, and just increases my pessimism for MTG in general. It's not easy being a Timmy/Spike. The MTGO experience has basically just accelerated what I would be experiencing over the course of a few months of RL MTG. WU Infect/Proliferate. Loss. Myr Flash Denile. Loss. WUG Ally Milling. Loss, but still working on it.
A week or two more of this, and I may just wave my middle finger at Standard MTG forever and move on to something like Extended or Pauper. It's been depressing.
Huh? Both of those creatures are $40 each, or $160 for a set. How is it that much different than Big Money Jace? GSZ is going up about as much as a non-Mythic Rare card can go (about $10 each now), and it's mainly for the Primeval Titan and other high priced green giants. All of the other Zeniths are great cards, but they aren't $10 each because there is no pro combo that people are abusing with them.
It's a critical card in Cawblade. WotC decided to create an insane set of Mythic swords, so now the Mystic and Swords are pretty high up in price. Just one deck. That's what one deck can do to the prices.
One deck? Stoneforge also sees play in Boros, GW Quest, and the Mono-white decks that casual/semi-casual tournament players are so fond of.
The prices of magic are about the same for competitive decks as they used to be. This has been beaten to death by the financial pros. Now, instead of having to buy multiple 20-40 dollar rares, your rares are less than 10 dollars. The mythics are just rares, + the additional money that was lost on the lower prices of normal rares. Jace may be an exception to this rule, but as a whole the game is the exact same price it used to be. The only problem with Jace was he was opened in a second set(so a single pack by drafters), and three months later the draft format was triple Eldrazi. But I am digressing.
The price of mythics will naturally be higher than rares. However, if you look at non-Jace competetive decks, such as Boros, RDW, Valakut, Eldrazi, whatever, their prices will be comparable to Faeries or Jund or Elves or whatever. Jace is the only card throwing off this curve.
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
Well, maybe in some offshoots, but it's always Mystic + Sword of FF/BM + Squadron Hawk. That's Cawblade. Cawblade, Cawblade, Cawblade, Cawblade, Cawblade. Boros = Cawblade + Goblin/Artifact aggro. It's just mixing two decks together, but it's essentially the same combo cards. There's one in there as Cawblade + Fauna/Vengevine. It's like putting cheese on a burger; it still mostly tastes like one without cheese, and it's not a brand new sandwich.
And nobody uses Quest if they have the Mystic. The Quest is just a cheaper and less effective Mystic.
Again, do the math. Back before MRs, every booster pack had one rare, and rares were the limit. You had a equal chance of getting any of the rares in that set. It could be a good rare or a junk rare, but everybody had an equal chance. Let's take Morningtide as an example pre-MR set. It has 50 rares, so that's a 50:1 chance to get the rare you want.
With Mythics, you only have a 1/8 chance of getting a MR per booster. Rise of the Eldrazi had 15 MRs, so that's a 120:1 chance of getting the MR you want. All of the really good cards are MRs, and all Planeswalkers have been and will always be Mythic Rares. So, in general, the more MRs you have, the better your deck will be.
Now, market does drive price, but so does actual rarity. If it's really, really hard to get a card by drafting or buying packs AND it's a good card that everybody plays, the usual supply/demand mantra applies and the price goes up. No matter how good a common will be, it will NEVER be over a dollar. Mana Leak, as popular as it is, is still only 60 cents. This is because the commons are, well, common. You can buy 4-5 packs and probably get a set of a card that you want.
Going back to the rares/MRs and booster chances, here's how it looks from set to set:
Ravnica - 88 rares (88:1)
Guildpact - 55 rares (55:1)
Dissension - 60 rares (60:1)
Coldsnap - 40 rares (40:1)
Time Spiral - 80 rares (80:1)
Planar Chaos - 50 rares (50:1)
Future Sight - 60 rares (60:1)
10th Edition - 121 rares (121:1)
Morningtide - 50 rares (50:1)
Shadowmoor - 80 rares (80:1)
Eventide - 60 rares (60:1)
Shards of Alara - 15 MRs (120:1)
Conflux - 10 MRs (80:1)
Alara Reborn - 10 MRs (80:1)
Magic 2010 - 15 MRs (120:1)
Zendikar - 15 MRs (120:1)
Worldwake - 10 MRs (80:1)
RotE - 15 MRs (120:1)
Magic 2011 - 15 MRs (120:1)
Scars of Mirrodin - 15 MRs (120:1)
Mirrodin Besieged - 10 MRs (80:1)
Do you see a pattern? Ever since Mythic Rares, the really good cards have been super rare to get. It has never gone below 80:1, and 120:1 hits more often than not.
Higher rarity of getting a card = higher prices. Thus, your argument is mathematically incorrect.
It's not just Jace. Jace is a problem, but not the only problem. I can't look at historical prices because I have no idea where that kind of data exists. However, just look at the standard popular pro decks:
Vincent Lemoine's Cawblade/Boros (No Jace):
Arid Mesa - $12 x 4 = $48
Marsh Flats - $12 x 4 = $48
Scalding Tarn - $14 x 4 = $56
Goblin Guide - $9 x 4 = $36
Mirran Crusader - $6 x 4 = $24
Stoneforge Mystic - $21 x 4 = $84
Koth of the Hammer - $23 x 3 = $69
Sword of Body and Mind - $13 x 1 = $13
Sword of Feast and Famine - $23 x 1 = $23
Total price = $401
Patrick Chapin's Terrezet Artifact + Control (with and without Jace):
Creeping Tar Pit - $8 x 4 = $32
Darkslick Shores - $5 x 3 = $15
Inkmoth Nexus - $11 x 2 = $22
Scalding Tarn - $14 x 4 = $56
Wurmcoil Engine - $10 x 1 = $10
Mox Opal - $21 x 2 = $42
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas - $50 x 4 = $200
Ratchet Bomb - $6 x 1 = $6
Total Price = $383 without Jace and $787 with Jace
Nevermind the Jace price, but have you ever seen a $400 deck? Do you think a deck should cost that much? If I were to put together the best possible deck 5 years ago, do you think it would cost $400?
Not to mention that it's easy to look up the decks now. WotC just posts them online. It's basically a message that says "If you play with this deck, you'll win." So, millions of people play with these exact decks, and that drives up demand. And it ruins the game in general. People are no longer trying to perfect decks because the pros have already done so. "Look at this deck. If he won with it, it must have a big part to do with the cards."
Most pros make mediocre decks. Mediocre decks can win tournaments.
Keep working on your deckbuilding skills. The more decks you build and the more games you play, the more intuitive your understanding of strategic value will become.
Those who hesitate in the face of greatness have already lost.
I write for EoV. Feel free to check out my articles:
And it's all because to put together a deck that would be able to compete with them would need me to sink anywhere from $200 and upwards and for someone who only gets to play once maybe twice a month I don't want to be spending that sort of money just for the blocks to rotate soon and have to spend it again.
ITT: I miss when MTG was fun
1v1
UB Sygg, River Cutthroat
Multiplayer
RR Rakka Mar
UR Tibor and Lumia