I think top 16 at a 5k counts as competitive, but then again your standards seem a bit more stringent than mine are.
But let's break down Goblins. I'll just use a basic Goblins shell with all the expensive cards accounted for and in the case of random other random Goblins (Stingscourger for example), oh well, not like he's expensive even by Standard, uh, standards. All prices are for 4-of playlists according to SCG prices:
Cursecatcher: $8
Silvergill Adept: $6
Lord of Atlantis: $12
Merrow Reejerey: $12
Merfolk Sovereign: $4
Coralhelm Commander: $16
Aether Vial: $44
Force of Will: $180
Daze: $12
Wasteland: $100
Total: $394
Now, compare these costs to someone who, say, built Faeries back during Lorwyn, built Jund during Alara, and has now built U/B Control. That person would most definitely have spent more than $400 on the game. By that point they could probably have built Survival Madness, or at least have come close to it. And what'll they do when next year's block rolls around and it's a new set of mythics to buy to keep themselves at tier 1?
That's right, they're going to say how instead of buying into such an "expensive" format as Legacy, they can drop "only" a couple hundred and get a tier 1 Standard deck.
I can spend ~200-300 bucks and get one of several tier-1 standard decks.
In legacy you are talking to me about maybe placing in a FNM..
I think the implications of this in particular are just so precious. You're basically saying, "If I spend $300 on Standard, I can be one of the big boys. I could go win a PTQ, get into the Pro Tour, and make my fortunes there." The reality is that most players who invest in $300 Standard decks still aren't good enough to win FNM on a regular basis in a developed metagame. That's just how it works.
I think top 16 at a 5k counts as competitive, but then again your standards seem a bit more stringent than mine are.
But let's break down Goblins. I'll just use a basic Goblins shell with all the expensive cards accounted for and in the case of random other random Goblins (Stingscourger for example), oh well, not like he's expensive even by Standard, uh, standards. All prices are for 4-of playlists according to SCG prices:
Cursecatcher: $8
Silvergill Adept: $6
Lord of Atlantis: $12
Merrow Reejerey: $12
Merfolk Sovereign: $4
Coralhelm Commander: $16
Aether Vial: $44
Force of Will: $180
Daze: $12
Wasteland: $100
Total: $394
Now, compare these costs to someone who, say, built Faeries back during Lorwyn, built Jund during Alara, and has now built U/B Control. That person would most definitely have spent more than $400 on the game. By that point they could probably have built Survival Madness, or at least have come close to it. And what'll they do when next year's block rolls around and it's a new set of mythics to buy to keep themselves at tier 1?
That's right, they're going to say how instead of buying into such an "expensive" format as Legacy, they can drop "only" a couple hundred and get a tier 1 Standard deck.
I think the implications of this in particular are just so precious. You're basically saying, "If I spend $300 on Standard, I can be one of the big boys. I could go win a PTQ, get into the Pro Tour, and make my fortunes there." The reality is that most players who invest in $300 Standard decks still aren't good enough to win FNM on a regular basis in a developed metagame. That's just how it works.
Playing standard does not mean you have to let your cards rot post rotation.
I sell off mine before they rotate.
but in the meantime i've been able to run tier-1 decks and win some stuff.
It should go without saying that you have a better shot at winning if you can afford to play the best decks.
You have to shell out a LOT more money to play the best legacy decks.
Ignoring that the average player will never amount to anything more than sporadic prizes at FNM, sure he could win some stuff. A few packs here and there plus the hassle of constantly getting and selling cards? Sounds great.
You have to shell out a LOT more money to play the best legacy decks.
Because I've ever said the best Legacy decks are cheap?
Do you seriously think I've been saying that? If so, what do you make of the multiple times I've said it's not what I'm saying? Or do you even bother to read my posts?
Ignoring that the average player will never amount to anything more than sporadic prizes at FNM, sure he could win some stuff. A few packs here and there plus the hassle of constantly getting and selling cards? Sounds great.
Because I've ever said the best Legacy decks are cheap?
Do you seriously think I've been saying that? If so, what do you make of the multiple times I've said it's not what I'm saying? Or do you even bother to read my posts?
Being a good magic player is a hassle to you.
good to know.
I've read your posts.
you cite parts of decks that cost more than top decks in standard.
I said legacy decks are more expensive. while citing top 8 decklists and their prices.
you said they "certainly are not"..
You've made it clear that you are talking about random FNM decks, while im talking about actually playing optimized decks at a reduced price in standard vs legacy.
Yeah, I'm done with you. Come back to the thread when you understand that Legacy is more than "tier 1 means you 50%+ the entire field" like it does in Standard—just because Fish isn't zomg expensive or doesn't appear in one top 8 doesn't mean it's not competitive.
But hey, this is Competitive Magic(tm), where anything costing less than the upper bound of the format can't possibly be good, I guess. Way to be a part of the problem, buddy.
The difference between legacy and standard is this:
you have years to slowly work towards making a legacy deck. If you want to work towards building a standard deck, you have less than 3 months. And by the time you go there, the meta will have shifted.
If you work towards making a legacy deck, you can simply go:
Do i want to run blue? If so, I get:
force of will x4
daze x4
brainstorm x4
Do I enjoy enlightened tutor packages:
get x4 enlightened tutor
Do i want to run something that likes wastelanding things on occasion:
get wastelands, consider ports.
What color combinations do I like? Get respective duals. (2 of each will be sufficient for starting almost any deck)
Pick up all relevant fetchlands.
Do I like creature beat down? should probably pick up 4x aether vial
and so legacy decks can get built slowly and modularly. Once you acquire the fetchlands and 2x of the duals in colors you care about most, you can play those decks. Consider your choice of fewer fetchlands and more basics as a way of generating "virtual card advantage" off of stifles. Don't own the duals? Your are playing around wasteland.
Yes, playset of force of will is a lot. But you can get a force of will every other month, and in that time you make a playset, you would have needed to build and then practically dismantle a standard deck. But really, if you have the 4x Force, 4x daze, 4x brainstorm and 4x aether vial, 4x wasteland staples, how much money do you spend to make merfolk? not a ton. How much to make countertop instead? less than 200.
If you have built an enlightened tutor package, you can throw it into any of your control decks that run white.
Tl, dr: you can take as long as you want getting into legacy. If you want to get into standard, you have less than 3 months to gather all of the cards for a tier 1 deck, and your deck will probably adjust significantly over that time. 3 years to build a 1100 dollar deck is less expensive than building a 500 dollar deck every year.
Yeah, I'm done with you. Come back to the thread when you understand that Legacy is more than "tier 1 means you 50%+ the entire field" like it does in Standard—just because Fish isn't zomg expensive or doesn't appear in one top 8 doesn't mean it's not competitive.
But hey, this is Competitive Magic(tm), where anything costing less than the upper bound of the format can't possibly be good, I guess. Way to be a part of the problem, buddy.
I Realize and am standing by my statement that top standard decks are cheaper than most top legacy decks.
This is a fact, supported by lots of evidence. some of which i have already posted.
tier one standard decks are ranging from 200-500 mostly.
in legacy, almost all of them are $500-1400.
In response to fistofthor, we are in a different time. 21st century.
Its very easy to sell off cards before they rotate, and acquire cards in a timely fashion. I use this very site we post on for many of my sales and buys.
Being lazy or unable to get cards in a timely fashion is a whole nother issue than them being too expensive.
Average prices for a T2 deck that doesn't involve Jace.
Green Eldrazi - 270ish
Elfdrazi - budget range...not going to look up a ton of 50 cent cards.
RDW - 250ish now that Koth is in the mix with Kargan's and fetches if you go that route.
Valakut - 250ish
So all in all most decks that will last quite awhile will run you around 250 dollars.
Now when you assume that most people playing T2 play magic quite a bit you'll find that the amount you spend on a deck would easily equal to the amount you would spend in entertainment over the course of time that the deck you build would remain in standard.
I would say rename this thread "Complain about Jace's price" or more simply "Complain that you have to spend an equal amount on entertainment in this card game as you would anything else" just remember that this entertainment cost is upfront but lasts until it rotates.
I see no problems here other than hyperbole and doomsday singers of people pissed that they have to drop their money upfront a couple times a year instead of multiple times over the span of the year.
Yeah, I'm done with you. Come back to the thread when you understand that Legacy is more than "tier 1 means you 50%+ the entire field" like it does in Standard—just because Fish isn't zomg expensive or doesn't appear in one top 8 doesn't mean it's not competitive.
But hey, this is Competitive Magic(tm), where anything costing less than the upper bound of the format can't possibly be good, I guess. Way to be a part of the problem, buddy.
that is probably the most oxymoronic comment i have heard to date.
as it stands, you have advocated several times playing legacy due to card cost, and have compared your competitive tier 1 deck vs the cost of playing something competitive in standard.
so someone challenges you on it, and provides you with a fairly strong supporting argument that standard decks aren't as expensive, on the whole, as legacy, and all of a sudden, you are "done with him" and then insult him, and then counter argue that anything less than the uppermost cost cant be good, implying of course that your fish deck, while not the most expensive deck in the format is strong and is a very viable strategy (which it is, without any doubt).
however, when someone else turns and gives the same argument about how not every tier 1 standard deck must require all of the most expensive cards, the comments are always that they have to have them, and decks without them aren't competitive, well, it seems a lot like a double standard.
hate to jump in where it isn't my fight, but even my relatively dense self could see the irony in that comment.
Like it is any fun just playing the same deck every time? And to truly do good you do need multiple decks to adjust to the current metas. And if you want to be truly be competitive while playing blue you have to play Jace, so it's not exactly easy to avoid him, even if it's 'just Jace', as you say.
Prices have been going up, and they are high. 300$ for a single deck isn't on par with most other hobbies, as you are trying to claim.
And you can no longer trade cards to get the money rares, as you'd need to trade about 50+ rares for a Jace, for example. You can't win/trade your way to a competitive deck with tournaments and packs, as 95% of cards are basically near useless when it comes to trading because mythic rarity makes only a very small quantity of cards demanded enough that people will actually trade for them.
Therefore it is a lot less viable and worthwhile to buy packs, as the only cards you actually have to really 'try' to obtain are the expensive mythics. Everything else is just bargain bin rares that you cannot use as trade leverage for most of the good mythic rares.
so someone challenges you on it, and provides you with a fairly strong supporting argument that standard decks aren't as expensive, on the whole, as legacy, and all of a sudden, you are "done with him" and then insult him, and then counter argue that anything less than the uppermost cost cant be good, implying of course that your fish deck, while not the most expensive deck in the format is strong and is a very viable strategy (which it is, without any doubt).
I'm done with him because he kept arguing against points I quite honestly wasn't making. The closest he came to arguing anything I actually said was when he said he sells off his cards after he's had his fun and before they drop too much in value, which is good for him, but carries about as much weight as those "I bought one pack then eventually traded up into a playset of Jaces" people. Cool story bro and all that, but not helpful for the average player.
however, when someone else turns and gives the same argument about how not every tier 1 standard deck must require all of the most expensive cards, the comments are always that they have to have them, and decks without them aren't competitive, well, it seems a lot like a double standard.
Saying that not every Standard deck needs Jace or Primeval is like saying not every Legacy deck needs Moat or Tabernacle—the most expensive cards in the format lend themselves to some incredible decks, but sure, you can do well without them. You could probably pick up a RDW that doesn't use Koth/Masticore/whatever other mythic and be competitive.
But can you survive, say, five Standard rotations without spending the equivalent of a Legacy deck? What's the cutoff? If we're talking about flash-in-the-pan players who'll buy Valakut Titan, play that until it rotates, then never touch Magic again, then sure, their dollar is best spent on Standard, but if we're talking about players who care for the game enough to stay around for years, suddenly Eternal formats become more attractive. Ultimately, as the point I've kept on making over the many pages in this thread, you can't straight-up compare one Standard to all of Legacy. You have to compare continued upkeep of Standard to continued upkeep of Legacy, and in that comparison Standard only gets worse the longer you play the game.
I'm honestly not sure what the issue is in getting this part understood. End of the day, Fish seems to be as cost-effective as two rotations of Standard, which is a fair enough time frame. And if your Legacy metagame is underdeveloped, then you can take truly Standard-type budget decks like Burn or Dredge (these cap out around $150-200 tops, and a sub-$100 Burn is easily doable) and have fun with those.
Like it is any fun just playing the same deck every time? And to truly do good you do need multiple decks to adjust to the current metas. And if you want to be truly be competitive while playing blue you have to play Jace, so it's not exactly easy to avoid him, even if it's 'just Jace', as you say.
Prices have been going up, and they are high. 300$ for a single deck isn't on par with most other hobbies, as you are trying to claim.
And you can no longer trade cards to get the money rares, as you'd need to trade about 50+ rares for a Jace, for example. You can't win/trade your way to a competitive deck with tournaments and packs, as 95% of cards are basically near useless when it comes to trading because mythic rarity makes only a very small quantity of cards demanded enough that people will actually trade for them.
Therefore it is a lot less viable and worthwhile to buy packs, as the only cards you actually have to really 'try' to obtain are the expensive mythics. Everything else is just bargain bin rares that you cannot use as trade leverage for most of the good mythic rares.
THIS. Although saying that you "only" need the chase mythics isn't quite accurate. You also need the other common, uncommon and rare (and sometimes cheap mythic) cards that fill out the deck. But those are easily come-by.
I got a single prize pack on Friday, which contained a new GW dual land. Should I have been happy? It's a rare dual land and it's very playable, but it's also only $1.69. There are 10 mythics and only 3 rares in Scars that are greater than or equal to the retail price of a pack. (7/8)*(3/53) + (1/8)*(10/15) = 13.3% or a 2/15 chance of having a worthwhile pack.
15 kids buy a pack - 13 of them are disappointed, 1 is pretty happy and 1 rubs their $15-50 mythic in everyone's face. Sounds like a terrible business model.
I'm done with him because he kept arguing against points I quite honestly wasn't making. The closest he came to arguing anything I actually said was when he said he sells off his cards after he's had his fun and before they drop too much in value, which is good for him, but carries about as much weight as those "I bought one pack then eventually traded up into a playset of Jaces" people. Cool story bro and all that, but not helpful for the average player.
That is not even REMOTELY close to the same thing.
anyone can buy a deck, play it for awhile, and sell it before it rotates.
it doesnt involve luck or victimizing new players or extorting people in deals.
Its extremely smart to do, and would be a huge help to someone like yourself who is talking about standard being too costly because of buying decks every rotation.
Quote from »
Saying that not every Standard deck needs Jace or Primeval is like saying not every Legacy deck needs Moat or Tabernacle—the most expensive cards in the format lend themselves to some incredible decks, but sure, you can do well without them. You could probably pick up a RDW that doesn't use Koth/Masticore/whatever other mythic and be competitive.
But can you survive, say, five Standard rotations without spending the equivalent of a Legacy deck? What's the cutoff? If we're talking about flash-in-the-pan players who'll buy Valakut Titan, play that until it rotates, then never touch Magic again, then sure, their dollar is best spent on Standard, but if we're talking about players who care for the game enough to stay around for years, suddenly Eternal formats become more attractive. Ultimately, as the point I've kept on making over the many pages in this thread, you can't straight-up compare one Standard to all of Legacy. You have to compare continued upkeep of Standard to continued upkeep of Legacy, and in that comparison Standard only gets worse the longer you play the game.
like i said, sell the stuff before it rotates.
Many players who stay around for years get sick of the same decks over and over again and want to play a format that drastically changes often.
Quote from »
I'm honestly not sure what the issue is in getting this part understood. End of the day, Fish seems to be as cost-effective as two rotations of Standard, which is a fair enough time frame. And if your Legacy metagame is underdeveloped, then you can take truly Standard-type budget decks like Burn or Dredge (these cap out around $150-200 tops, and a sub-$100 Burn is easily doable) and have fun with those.
Your "affordable" fish deck is twice as expensive.
Not everyone has 500+ dollars to invest in a deck.
step #1: buy tier one jund deck for ~200 bucks
step #2: win many games with said jund deck
step #3 sell jund deck before rotation for about what you got it for.
*rotation*
step #4: buy new tier one deck(valakut) for similar price.
step #5 win games
repeat.
where do you see me not being cost effective?
I dont have 1.5k cash floating around to buy an amazing legacy deck.
Standard allows me to play almost any top tier deck, whereas in legacy i would have to spend 2-5x as much.
15 kids buy a pack - 13 of them are disappointed, 1 is pretty happy and 1 rubs their $15-50 mythic in everyone's face. Sounds like a terrible business model.
Except that many of the 13 of the disappointed kids are going to buy themselves another pack in the hopes that they are going to be next person to rub their $15-50 mythic in everyone's face.
It's not so much a terrible business model as it is too shortsighted.
I've stopped buying boxes or packs. Half of my inner circle has stopped buying boxes or packs. It's simply not worth it anymore. We can't build or trade to make a deck from packs, nor from a box, nor even from a CASE. Someone bought a case of Scars and complained on here about only getting 5 planeswalkers. Except when the math was done, that wasn't even unusual. $550 gets you a smattering of random planeswalkers, a few other chase mythics and a pile of junk rares. And good luck finding someone to trade the chase mythics with, so you can build a single deck. Desperate kids clinging to their single Jace or Koth, hoping desperately that they will manage to finish a playset before they rotate, knowing that they would be stupid to trade them away because no one will ever trade them back.
You keep inventing scenarios as to why WotC will profit off of lottery-ticket mythics. You're wrong. Maybe they have profited off of it in the past, and I'm sure they BELIEVE they will profit from it. But people are getting fed up, and it's only a matter of time before sales really start to suffer. If I hadn't had enough standard trade stock to build the 2 cheapest competitive decks (MBC, RDW) I'd have quit already.
That is not even REMOTELY close to the same thing.
anyone can buy a deck, play it for awhile, and sell it before it rotates.
it doesnt involve luck or victimizing new players or extorting people in deals.
Its extremely smart to do, and would be a huge help to someone like yourself who is talking about standard being too costly because of buying decks every rotation.
like i said, sell the stuff before it rotates.
Many players who stay around for years get sick of the same decks over and over again and want to play a format that drastically changes often.
Your "affordable" fish deck is twice as expensive.
Not everyone has 500+ dollars to invest in a deck.
step #1: buy tier one jund deck for ~200 bucks
step #2: win many games with said jund deck
step #3 sell jund deck before rotation for about what you got it for.
*rotation*
step #4: buy new tier one deck(valakut) for similar price.
step #5 win games
repeat.
where do you see me not being cost effective?
I dont have 1.5k cash floating around to buy an amazing legacy deck.
Standard allows me to play almost any top tier deck, whereas in legacy i would have to spend 2-5x as much.
If by sell, you mean actually make a profit on the cards you bought, then only if you extorted causals or noobs heavily when the cards were released, or buy pre-order playsets of every mythic and sell them at Market Price immediately (which is about as expensive as buying a Black Lotus with every new set). If by sell, you mean recouping some money at a loss to save on the deck $35-50 Mythic playset your new deck will almost certainly need to allow you to keep winning as consistently as before, then kudos for being able to exploit basic logic.
If you're good enough to actually win consistently and profit off of the ☺☺☺☺ty cards you pull in your prize packs after winning each FNM and trading them to stupid people consistently (or "trading up" as it is known), then sure, you can make a profit on pretty much anything you do. But you know what most people will tell you or ask themselves when you try to sell then a deck with half of it rotating in 3-6 months?
1. Does he want full prices for cards that will be worthless or almost in that timespan? If so, offer a price based on what you think the cards will be worth after rotation. If he says no, tell him that Ebay disagrees and watch his fat face splutter to find a response that doesn't make him look like a ripper.
2. Is he selling cards that may actually have post-rotation use? (like fetches, KOTR, or Noble Hierarch?) If so, offer based on prices after rotation, because there prices are also dropping and they know it. If everyone is smart and realizes this, and people wait, he'll become more desperate overtime until his cards aren't actually worth anything, at that point you buy them at the even lower Ebay prices.
3. Do you need the cards for a tournament starting in an hour? If so, offer based on post-rotation. If they say no, quote the price of the lowest dealer table, and watch them do the exact same thing in 1., or buy from table. If not, then since you probably weren't going to win the tournament anyway since you aren't even friggin prepared, you probably aren't even good enough to do better then X-3 scrub.
4. Do you have any interest in the deck in Extended, or does the deck have any potential to interest you outside of competitive play? If so, offer as cheaply as you can, or hope the deck costs nothing. The only time I've ever done that was buying the Eightgrim deck like 3-4 weeks before, because I had the Alara cards for it, and the rest of the deck cost $15 literally, and it's fun as hell to play, and is actually viable in Extended if I ever wanted to waste my time there.
So, while you can save enough money from selling previous decks and consistently ripping off people to validate 2 or maybe even 3 rotations of Standard, given the current necessity of Mythics to do well, 3 or 4 rotations of Standard will cost you much more then even a medium-budget Legacy deck, such as TES, Merfolk, Counterbalance, or even Zoo, which is traditionally seen as expensive.
I'd also like to point out that the "going infinite" concept that you apparently can do in Standard is actually much more applicable to Legacy. Do you know what you often win at weekly or monthly Legacy tournaments? Moxes, Vales, occasionally ofter pieces of power, playsets of original duals that aren't Revised, sets of Force of Will, LED, playsets of original duals that are revised, Wastelands and Ports, and Goyfs, as well as XK, were X = any single digit number that translates into a couple thousand dollars. Large Standard tournaments? Boxes of the latest product, which is like saying 1-3 chase cards if you're lucky and a bunch of ☺☺☺☺ you'll never use, and FNM? X number of packs, where X is equal to 10 or less, and your good pulls are equal to 2 or less, and occasionally an ok promo that goes for $5 each. In conclusion, it's like potentially winning stock in Microsoft or Apple now, as opposed to wining a catered lunch for an entire office, as opposed to a $20 gift card at Blockbuster, except that I can't remember the last time I saw an open Blockbuster, and I was born in 1989.
TLDR: Your bolded line is pure bull☺☺☺☺ and you know it. Don't waste your time with it on people who aren't playing bad causal decks or people who've been playing for more then a month or 2.
no, i think you might be a little overly optimistic...i have NEVER been able to buy a or get a tier one deck for under 200 dollars since the days of black summer.
I can give you a list, most tier 1 decks where under $200 - pre-lowryn and no deck was over $300
in fact, until we go back to black summer, i cant remember a standard deck being under 200.00
i understand that players want to get the most value out of their dollar, i do too, but lets be realistic, arguing that you cant get a tier one deck for under 200.00 dollars is like me arguing because i cant buy a ferrari for less then 100,000 (or whatever cost there is on one, i have no idea). they have to cost SOMETHING, and i dont think, and most wouldnt, that 400.00 is an unreasonable price tag on a deck that would give you an entire standardseason of play.
Your memory is in no way proof.
Here are some popular T1 decks that where under $200 since the black summer. Affinity, Astral slide. u/g madness , r/g beats, urzatron, boros.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
With the prices the way they are, I am content with it. I only read the first 3 pages of complains and what not but I am a competitive player, when I come back from my basic training and AIT I plan to go about and participate in grand prix and PTQ's so i can try and get a name.
When I needed certain cards ie: Primeval Titan when it was $60 it was only two that I got, i dropped 3 gideons down for them and $20. I opened all my gideons also :3
When it comes down to it and I want to be competitive and build something that works, I netdeck, won't lie, but I also don't find attraction in the t1 decks. I currently run a t1.5 when i want to win and a mono white allies for fun. My meta isnt the greatest on competition there is only 2-3 people I ever have issues with. One being an old pro, my room mate, and one other friend. Because I know they have the skill to compete (granted my roomy runs titan ramp)
I can give you a list, most tier 1 decks where under $200 - pre-lowryn and no deck was over $300
Your memory is in no way proof.
Here are some popular T1 decks that where under $200 since the black summer. Affinity, Astral slide. u/g madness , r/g beats, urzatron, boros.
no deck need 5 different 20 cards pre-lowryn.(I'm not even sure we had a standard with 5 different $20 cards pre-lowryn)
sure, madness, and astral slide were under 200.00, i graciously give you that. Affinity was not sir. I can easily remember many, not just one or two, of my friends buying glimmervoid at its height for 20.00 a piece, and archbound for 25.00 a piece.
those cards alone mean that the deck cost 180.00, just by themselves, and still ran additional cards, like blinkmoth and plating (which was a 5.00 uncommon in its day) and pre-banning affinity was a heck of a lot more expensive.
no deck was over 300.00, really?
doran rock was the by far most expensive deck in standard up to that point. between the pain lands, doran, murmoring bosk, chameleon colossus, thoughtsieze, tarmogoyf, so on and so forth....well, that deck was STUPID expensive, and was easily at 700.00 if not MORE prior to rotation.
faeries was EASILY over 300.00 and close to the 500.00 mark if you purchased it during its height...with mutavault being a 40.00 card, and bitterblossom also a 40.00 card, then lets look at the deck that runs thoughtsieze, damnation, ancesteral visions, mistbind clique (who himself hit 10.00 in its day) scion of oona (also hit 10.00 before people figured out it was a bad card) and the host of other rares that saw play in it.
solar flare, if built right, had a 300.00 MANA BASE alone. as at its heights the ravnica lands were 25.00 a piece. (not all of them, but for some reason, hallowed fountain, watery grave, and godless shrine certainly were). now, that doesn't even begin to touch kokusho, yosei, gifts ungiven, and any of the other stuff that saw play in solar flare.
affinity was itself well over 200.00, and tooth and nail was too (as it typically was the only thing that answered affinity)
sure, in the long list of magic arcana you have mentioned a few decks that arent expensive, and i do understand that my memory isn't PROOF, but unfortunately there is no catalog of historical events to guide us through that.
additionally, look at how old the examples are....
gruul was certainly over 200.00 by the way. char it self was over 15.00 a shot. add to that the lands, and any chase rare that was in the deck (like solifuge) and that deck, if built optimally, was easily over 200.00, it wasn't over 300.00, but it certainly was over 200.00, boros was jsut as expensive and was also over 200.00, for the exact same reasons (and typically because of the exact same cards)
look, i can keep going, all the way back to covetous fire (which was the first stupid expensive deck i can think of) but i am willing to bet if we scour the deck database, i can find a hell of a lot more decks that broke the 300.00 dollar mark, and almost EVERY tier one deck does.
i don't know what magical christmas land goodness you are living in is, but the magic i have been playing has always been expensive. unlimited was expensive, ice-age had jesters cap at 30.00 a piece, alliance had post and force and horde, all of them were stupid expensive, mirage had frenetic efreet, and that gaggle of cards, as well as chronotog. in Urza all hell breaks loose. grim monolith anyone? does anyone remember how much that card was in standard? how about wildfire? so on and so forth. for their time, i can't remember a deck being under 200.00, and for that matter 300.00, it just isn't there.
there are always going to be the exceptions to the rule. but i am pretty sure, knowing that astral slide and madness were based on uncommon and played a lot of uncommon and commons, if we went back and still built it in its hay day, even knowing that were probably some of the cheapest competitive decks, i am still willing to bet they are or were close to 200.00 in their cost.
magic has always been expensive.
sure the mythic system propagates the problem, but magic has always been expensive.
@Sco77y (edit: I'm not really sure this is even directed at you, but towards that conversation in general.)
You're right about the card prices, but there is something missing to that analysis, that has been said many times in the thread. I'm not saying you're wrong with how expensive magic has been in the past, because you're not wrong. But...
In Ravnica, you could actually trade cards. It's crazy I know. But you could trade some remands and lightning helixes for some rares, you could trade Angel of Despair for a Firemane Angel, a Phyrexian Arena for a Char, A Skeletal Vampire for a Teferi, Tormod's Crypt for Loxodon Hierarch, Golgari Grave Troll for the big Ghost Dad, Dark Confidant for a Giant Solifuge. If you pulled something in a pack, you could actually trade it for something you needed. Yes there were crap rares, but the chances of you pulling something useful (by using it, or trading) were much higher than they are now.
As for the faeries era, there were still a large amount of cards that retained value that had use in trading: Stillmoon Cavalier, Chameleon Colossus, Mutavault, Figure of Destiny, Cryptic Command, Demigod of Revenge, Bitterblossom, Thoughtseize, Windbrisk Heights, Ajani Goldmane, Garruk Wildspeaker, Doran, Primal Command, Ancestral Visions, Lotus Bloom, Bogardan Hellkite....you get the idea.
Rares actually had value and you could trade and play them in multiple decks. Now there are only about 5 cards (yes a slight exaggeration) that anyone wants anymore, devaluing so many packs, including the good rares. This doesn't decrease the cost of playing competitive standard, and in fact increases it due to the number of packs opened to obtain said 5 cards.
Now then. I'll stop repeating what's already been said.
Even if they were roughly the same. It was ALOT easier to trade for everything you needed for those decks pre mythic than it is now. To get a mythic you pretty much have to trade a mythic, although sometimes there are exceptions this is mostly true. I didnt even have a job since I was still in high school back when I played UW control, Astral Slide and Goblin Bidding. I traded for most of the cards then and they were easy to build.
I've been following the trends about Mythic Pricing and it's starting to stabilize as predicted I hope as new sets come out people start realizing that. Jace is an anomaly.
Mythics have meant a price jump.. but it is very difficult for more than a single card in a set to hold a value over $30. The sum of the top X mythics in a set given the price is set by mythics (and not rares) works out to how even the distribution is between price of the top mythics. The closer the prices the lower that sum is.
For most recent sets that averages out to be about $75.. or $25 each.. which isn't that big of a change from before. It is only the pre-release hype that makes it higher. Look at Koth, Elspeth, and Venser now at $37, $25, $24,... Scars is still way overpriced since it also has Masticore sitting around $24 and the Mox around $19.. Look at M11.. Primeval Titan ($38), Frost Titan ($20), Baneslayer Angel($18). How about ROE.. Vengevine($35), Gideon Jura($22), Kargan Dragonlord($15)..
I agree it's been harder to Trade, but I think that soon will start to change, once people start properly valuing Mythics. You still will need to trade a couple chase Rares for a Chase Mythic but it won't be the same as it has been. I think for the most part as long as they keep balancing the Mythics we can hope for the most expensive card in a set to sit around $30. This is about $10 higher than back a few years but it is probably the end result of mythics.
The reason the prices have gotten out of hand has been for 3 primary reasons which weren't apparent in the Alara Block Mythics until the whole expansion was printed and well into Zendikar.
1. Jace, the Mindsculptor gets printed in a small set as pretty much the only card of value. Possibly the best multiformat card printed in ages .. (Tarmogoyf, Jitte,.. but even those don't see much Vintage play..). It is worth about as much as a box. You basically only open worldwake to get this card (there are some good rares, but they have to be amazing rares like fetchlands to balance mythics... let's hope the next amazing rare cycle is in the 2nd (small)block of Expansion.)
2. Power creep: It tends to encrouch top down. It tends to be the more powerful rare cards that get the boost first, before they fill out the rest (M11 did a good job of filling out the rest). Whenever it is top heavy it becomes about best cards rather than more subtle synergies. Certain deck designers love it others despise it. SOM while potentially powerful doesn't embrace powercreep in the same way as sets in the past year or so.
3. Targetted removal outclassing permission. Alara's removal lent to who could stick the best bombs.. Playing 4 offs of expensive powerful creatures seemed reasonable. Mana coming easy compounded this with ramp from Zendikar. This also supports big best card strategies. If there weren't reliable ways to ramp up to Eldrazi we would be forced to cheat them into play or forget about it. M11 finally brought a decent generic Counterspell.
From those reasons as long as they don't do another Jace, continue on their lateral instead of upward power movement, and don't drown the format in removal we will probably see most competative decks sit around $300. This is more than $200 of yesteryear but it's a lot less than the $600-$800 we were seeing a few months back. As long as Wizards doesn't screw us with another Jace, I think the average buyer should not be buying any card for over $30 pre-release..
If you really want to get the expensive mythics the best way is probably trading(Save Jace which is a huge mistake and is a whole thing to itself), mostly other Mythics. When a new set comes out and the card is actually good but the prices are artificially high, pick up the support cards that will go in that deck or any other deck based around other artificially high chase mythics, especially any mythic support cards. This takes a bit of playtesting and knowledge of the game I suppose, or atleast some reading. Those support cards will have upward movement while the new cards will only go down in price. Like when I saw Koth spoiled at $50.. there is no way in hell I'd pay that much for a card that would be worth near $30 dollars within a month after release as I figured it. So I picked up Kargan Dragonlords at $7 a piece which within a week or so doubled. Picking up the Venser I wanted became much easier after that. People tend to be really polar on mythics. They either love them or think they are worth less than the paper they are printed on since they are so frusterated not getting the money ones. Any Mythic that has future potential that is priced at $4 is probably worth picking up. That's what I got my Frost Titan's at (I should probably unload them soon, their current hype is a bit too high). Picked up my Lotus Cobra's at $6 a piece... etc. Some cards come out the gate strong then disappear when they aren't good in the current meta or don't have the right support cards. Any mythic like that is worth attention. Like if Mimic Vat or Grand Architect was Mythic and worth $4 I would probably have picked them up. Gaea's Revenge is under $3 right now. Anyway, it's another option other than being a good player but it takes some money because you will find yourself having more cards than just those you play with.
Sorry about my incredible noobness (I've only been playing since Zendikar), but what i've been noticing is a lot of the more "non-mythic" decks are mostly aggro, and they do pretty well in tournaments recently.
WW (quest)
RDW
UB Infect
I don't think any of those above tier 1 decks even use mythic cards (except maybe that blue/green sword, but not sure if it's even needed).
Maybe the mythics are there for ramp/control players to create decks that can handle these super fast decks? I think someone before mentioned how mythic valukut decks are. Just food for thought. I think when Jund was at it's peak, even they weren't playing mythics (maelstrom pulse being the most expensive card in their deck?).
From what I can tell, it seems that if it wasn't for these mythic cards, these aggro decks would run rampant throughout the tournaments without any competion (other than each other). Perhaps WOTC didn't want that.
Sorry about my incredible noobness (I've only been playing since Zendikar), but what i've been noticing is a lot of the more "non-mythic" decks are mostly aggro, and they do pretty well in tournaments recently.
WW (quest)
RDW
UB Infect
I don't think any of those above tier 1 decks even use mythic cards (except maybe that blue/green sword, but not sure if it's even needed).
Maybe the mythics are there for ramp/control players to create decks that can handle these super fast decks? I think someone before mentioned how mythic valukut decks are. Just food for thought. I think when Jund was at it's peak, even they weren't playing mythics (maelstrom pulse being the most expensive card in their deck?).
From what I can tell, it seems that if it wasn't for these mythic cards, these aggro decks would run rampant throughout the tournaments without any competion (other than each other). Perhaps WOTC didn't want that.
They can still print the bombs at rare, and they would still stop aggro decks, while also being cheaper for the community to get.
But let's break down Goblins. I'll just use a basic Goblins shell with all the expensive cards accounted for and in the case of random other random Goblins (Stingscourger for example), oh well, not like he's expensive even by Standard, uh, standards. All prices are for 4-of playlists according to SCG prices:
Goblin Lackey: $40
Warren Instigator: $14
Gempalm Incinerator: $6
Goblin Piledriver: $64
Goblin Matron: $4
Goblin Chieftain: $5
Goblin Warchief: $9
Goblin Ringleader: $7
Siege-Gang Commander: $11
Aether Vial: $44
Wasteland: $100
Rishadan Port: $112
Total: $416
Mono-Blue 16-Lord Fish:
Cursecatcher: $8
Silvergill Adept: $6
Lord of Atlantis: $12
Merrow Reejerey: $12
Merfolk Sovereign: $4
Coralhelm Commander: $16
Aether Vial: $44
Force of Will: $180
Daze: $12
Wasteland: $100
Total: $394
Now, compare these costs to someone who, say, built Faeries back during Lorwyn, built Jund during Alara, and has now built U/B Control. That person would most definitely have spent more than $400 on the game. By that point they could probably have built Survival Madness, or at least have come close to it. And what'll they do when next year's block rolls around and it's a new set of mythics to buy to keep themselves at tier 1?
That's right, they're going to say how instead of buying into such an "expensive" format as Legacy, they can drop "only" a couple hundred and get a tier 1 Standard deck.
I think the implications of this in particular are just so precious. You're basically saying, "If I spend $300 on Standard, I can be one of the big boys. I could go win a PTQ, get into the Pro Tour, and make my fortunes there." The reality is that most players who invest in $300 Standard decks still aren't good enough to win FNM on a regular basis in a developed metagame. That's just how it works.
Playing standard does not mean you have to let your cards rot post rotation.
I sell off mine before they rotate.
but in the meantime i've been able to run tier-1 decks and win some stuff.
It should go without saying that you have a better shot at winning if you can afford to play the best decks.
You have to shell out a LOT more money to play the best legacy decks.
Not really trading atm
BRVamps
Because I've ever said the best Legacy decks are cheap?
Do you seriously think I've been saying that? If so, what do you make of the multiple times I've said it's not what I'm saying? Or do you even bother to read my posts?
Being a good magic player is a hassle to you.
good to know.
I've read your posts.
you cite parts of decks that cost more than top decks in standard.
I said legacy decks are more expensive. while citing top 8 decklists and their prices.
you said they "certainly are not"..
You've made it clear that you are talking about random FNM decks, while im talking about actually playing optimized decks at a reduced price in standard vs legacy.
Not really trading atm
BRVamps
But hey, this is Competitive Magic(tm), where anything costing less than the upper bound of the format can't possibly be good, I guess. Way to be a part of the problem, buddy.
you have years to slowly work towards making a legacy deck. If you want to work towards building a standard deck, you have less than 3 months. And by the time you go there, the meta will have shifted.
If you work towards making a legacy deck, you can simply go:
Do i want to run blue? If so, I get:
force of will x4
daze x4
brainstorm x4
Do I enjoy enlightened tutor packages:
get x4 enlightened tutor
Do i want to run something that likes wastelanding things on occasion:
get wastelands, consider ports.
What color combinations do I like? Get respective duals. (2 of each will be sufficient for starting almost any deck)
Pick up all relevant fetchlands.
Do I like creature beat down? should probably pick up 4x aether vial
and so legacy decks can get built slowly and modularly. Once you acquire the fetchlands and 2x of the duals in colors you care about most, you can play those decks. Consider your choice of fewer fetchlands and more basics as a way of generating "virtual card advantage" off of stifles. Don't own the duals? Your are playing around wasteland.
Yes, playset of force of will is a lot. But you can get a force of will every other month, and in that time you make a playset, you would have needed to build and then practically dismantle a standard deck. But really, if you have the 4x Force, 4x daze, 4x brainstorm and 4x aether vial, 4x wasteland staples, how much money do you spend to make merfolk? not a ton. How much to make countertop instead? less than 200.
If you have built an enlightened tutor package, you can throw it into any of your control decks that run white.
Tl, dr: you can take as long as you want getting into legacy. If you want to get into standard, you have less than 3 months to gather all of the cards for a tier 1 deck, and your deck will probably adjust significantly over that time. 3 years to build a 1100 dollar deck is less expensive than building a 500 dollar deck every year.
Legacy:WUBG Jace Rock
Trade thread
Sig by: heroes of the plane studios
I Realize and am standing by my statement that top standard decks are cheaper than most top legacy decks.
This is a fact, supported by lots of evidence. some of which i have already posted.
tier one standard decks are ranging from 200-500 mostly.
in legacy, almost all of them are $500-1400.
In response to fistofthor, we are in a different time. 21st century.
Its very easy to sell off cards before they rotate, and acquire cards in a timely fashion. I use this very site we post on for many of my sales and buys.
Being lazy or unable to get cards in a timely fashion is a whole nother issue than them being too expensive.
Not really trading atm
BRVamps
Green Eldrazi - 270ish
Elfdrazi - budget range...not going to look up a ton of 50 cent cards.
RDW - 250ish now that Koth is in the mix with Kargan's and fetches if you go that route.
Valakut - 250ish
So all in all most decks that will last quite awhile will run you around 250 dollars.
Now when you assume that most people playing T2 play magic quite a bit you'll find that the amount you spend on a deck would easily equal to the amount you would spend in entertainment over the course of time that the deck you build would remain in standard.
I would say rename this thread "Complain about Jace's price" or more simply "Complain that you have to spend an equal amount on entertainment in this card game as you would anything else" just remember that this entertainment cost is upfront but lasts until it rotates.
I see no problems here other than hyperbole and doomsday singers of people pissed that they have to drop their money upfront a couple times a year instead of multiple times over the span of the year.
that is probably the most oxymoronic comment i have heard to date.
as it stands, you have advocated several times playing legacy due to card cost, and have compared your competitive tier 1 deck vs the cost of playing something competitive in standard.
so someone challenges you on it, and provides you with a fairly strong supporting argument that standard decks aren't as expensive, on the whole, as legacy, and all of a sudden, you are "done with him" and then insult him, and then counter argue that anything less than the uppermost cost cant be good, implying of course that your fish deck, while not the most expensive deck in the format is strong and is a very viable strategy (which it is, without any doubt).
however, when someone else turns and gives the same argument about how not every tier 1 standard deck must require all of the most expensive cards, the comments are always that they have to have them, and decks without them aren't competitive, well, it seems a lot like a double standard.
hate to jump in where it isn't my fight, but even my relatively dense self could see the irony in that comment.
Prices have been going up, and they are high. 300$ for a single deck isn't on par with most other hobbies, as you are trying to claim.
And you can no longer trade cards to get the money rares, as you'd need to trade about 50+ rares for a Jace, for example. You can't win/trade your way to a competitive deck with tournaments and packs, as 95% of cards are basically near useless when it comes to trading because mythic rarity makes only a very small quantity of cards demanded enough that people will actually trade for them.
Therefore it is a lot less viable and worthwhile to buy packs, as the only cards you actually have to really 'try' to obtain are the expensive mythics. Everything else is just bargain bin rares that you cannot use as trade leverage for most of the good mythic rares.
I'm done with him because he kept arguing against points I quite honestly wasn't making. The closest he came to arguing anything I actually said was when he said he sells off his cards after he's had his fun and before they drop too much in value, which is good for him, but carries about as much weight as those "I bought one pack then eventually traded up into a playset of Jaces" people. Cool story bro and all that, but not helpful for the average player.
Saying that not every Standard deck needs Jace or Primeval is like saying not every Legacy deck needs Moat or Tabernacle—the most expensive cards in the format lend themselves to some incredible decks, but sure, you can do well without them. You could probably pick up a RDW that doesn't use Koth/Masticore/whatever other mythic and be competitive.
But can you survive, say, five Standard rotations without spending the equivalent of a Legacy deck? What's the cutoff? If we're talking about flash-in-the-pan players who'll buy Valakut Titan, play that until it rotates, then never touch Magic again, then sure, their dollar is best spent on Standard, but if we're talking about players who care for the game enough to stay around for years, suddenly Eternal formats become more attractive. Ultimately, as the point I've kept on making over the many pages in this thread, you can't straight-up compare one Standard to all of Legacy. You have to compare continued upkeep of Standard to continued upkeep of Legacy, and in that comparison Standard only gets worse the longer you play the game.
I'm honestly not sure what the issue is in getting this part understood. End of the day, Fish seems to be as cost-effective as two rotations of Standard, which is a fair enough time frame. And if your Legacy metagame is underdeveloped, then you can take truly Standard-type budget decks like Burn or Dredge (these cap out around $150-200 tops, and a sub-$100 Burn is easily doable) and have fun with those.
THIS. Although saying that you "only" need the chase mythics isn't quite accurate. You also need the other common, uncommon and rare (and sometimes cheap mythic) cards that fill out the deck. But those are easily come-by.
I got a single prize pack on Friday, which contained a new GW dual land. Should I have been happy? It's a rare dual land and it's very playable, but it's also only $1.69. There are 10 mythics and only 3 rares in Scars that are greater than or equal to the retail price of a pack. (7/8)*(3/53) + (1/8)*(10/15) = 13.3% or a 2/15 chance of having a worthwhile pack.
15 kids buy a pack - 13 of them are disappointed, 1 is pretty happy and 1 rubs their $15-50 mythic in everyone's face. Sounds like a terrible business model.
That is not even REMOTELY close to the same thing.
anyone can buy a deck, play it for awhile, and sell it before it rotates.
it doesnt involve luck or victimizing new players or extorting people in deals.
Its extremely smart to do, and would be a huge help to someone like yourself who is talking about standard being too costly because of buying decks every rotation.
like i said, sell the stuff before it rotates.
Many players who stay around for years get sick of the same decks over and over again and want to play a format that drastically changes often.
Your "affordable" fish deck is twice as expensive.
Not everyone has 500+ dollars to invest in a deck.
step #1: buy tier one jund deck for ~200 bucks
step #2: win many games with said jund deck
step #3 sell jund deck before rotation for about what you got it for.
*rotation*
step #4: buy new tier one deck(valakut) for similar price.
step #5 win games
repeat.
where do you see me not being cost effective?
I dont have 1.5k cash floating around to buy an amazing legacy deck.
Standard allows me to play almost any top tier deck, whereas in legacy i would have to spend 2-5x as much.
Not really trading atm
BRVamps
Except that many of the 13 of the disappointed kids are going to buy themselves another pack in the hopes that they are going to be next person to rub their $15-50 mythic in everyone's face.
It's not so much a terrible business model as it is too shortsighted.
You keep inventing scenarios as to why WotC will profit off of lottery-ticket mythics. You're wrong. Maybe they have profited off of it in the past, and I'm sure they BELIEVE they will profit from it. But people are getting fed up, and it's only a matter of time before sales really start to suffer. If I hadn't had enough standard trade stock to build the 2 cheapest competitive decks (MBC, RDW) I'd have quit already.
If by sell, you mean actually make a profit on the cards you bought, then only if you extorted causals or noobs heavily when the cards were released, or buy pre-order playsets of every mythic and sell them at Market Price immediately (which is about as expensive as buying a Black Lotus with every new set). If by sell, you mean recouping some money at a loss to save on the deck $35-50 Mythic playset your new deck will almost certainly need to allow you to keep winning as consistently as before, then kudos for being able to exploit basic logic.
If you're good enough to actually win consistently and profit off of the ☺☺☺☺ty cards you pull in your prize packs after winning each FNM and trading them to stupid people consistently (or "trading up" as it is known), then sure, you can make a profit on pretty much anything you do. But you know what most people will tell you or ask themselves when you try to sell then a deck with half of it rotating in 3-6 months?
1. Does he want full prices for cards that will be worthless or almost in that timespan? If so, offer a price based on what you think the cards will be worth after rotation. If he says no, tell him that Ebay disagrees and watch his fat face splutter to find a response that doesn't make him look like a ripper.
2. Is he selling cards that may actually have post-rotation use? (like fetches, KOTR, or Noble Hierarch?) If so, offer based on prices after rotation, because there prices are also dropping and they know it. If everyone is smart and realizes this, and people wait, he'll become more desperate overtime until his cards aren't actually worth anything, at that point you buy them at the even lower Ebay prices.
3. Do you need the cards for a tournament starting in an hour? If so, offer based on post-rotation. If they say no, quote the price of the lowest dealer table, and watch them do the exact same thing in 1., or buy from table. If not, then since you probably weren't going to win the tournament anyway since you aren't even friggin prepared, you probably aren't even good enough to do better then X-3 scrub.
4. Do you have any interest in the deck in Extended, or does the deck have any potential to interest you outside of competitive play? If so, offer as cheaply as you can, or hope the deck costs nothing. The only time I've ever done that was buying the Eightgrim deck like 3-4 weeks before, because I had the Alara cards for it, and the rest of the deck cost $15 literally, and it's fun as hell to play, and is actually viable in Extended if I ever wanted to waste my time there.
So, while you can save enough money from selling previous decks and consistently ripping off people to validate 2 or maybe even 3 rotations of Standard, given the current necessity of Mythics to do well, 3 or 4 rotations of Standard will cost you much more then even a medium-budget Legacy deck, such as TES, Merfolk, Counterbalance, or even Zoo, which is traditionally seen as expensive.
I'd also like to point out that the "going infinite" concept that you apparently can do in Standard is actually much more applicable to Legacy. Do you know what you often win at weekly or monthly Legacy tournaments? Moxes, Vales, occasionally ofter pieces of power, playsets of original duals that aren't Revised, sets of Force of Will, LED, playsets of original duals that are revised, Wastelands and Ports, and Goyfs, as well as XK, were X = any single digit number that translates into a couple thousand dollars. Large Standard tournaments? Boxes of the latest product, which is like saying 1-3 chase cards if you're lucky and a bunch of ☺☺☺☺ you'll never use, and FNM? X number of packs, where X is equal to 10 or less, and your good pulls are equal to 2 or less, and occasionally an ok promo that goes for $5 each. In conclusion, it's like potentially winning stock in Microsoft or Apple now, as opposed to wining a catered lunch for an entire office, as opposed to a $20 gift card at Blockbuster, except that I can't remember the last time I saw an open Blockbuster, and I was born in 1989.
TLDR: Your bolded line is pure bull☺☺☺☺ and you know it. Don't waste your time with it on people who aren't playing bad causal decks or people who've been playing for more then a month or 2.
I can give you a list, most tier 1 decks where under $200 - pre-lowryn and no deck was over $300
Your memory is in no way proof.
Here are some popular T1 decks that where under $200 since the black summer. Affinity, Astral slide. u/g madness , r/g beats, urzatron, boros.
no deck need 5 different 20 cards pre-lowryn.(I'm not even sure we had a standard with 5 different $20 cards pre-lowryn)
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
When I needed certain cards ie: Primeval Titan when it was $60 it was only two that I got, i dropped 3 gideons down for them and $20. I opened all my gideons also :3
When it comes down to it and I want to be competitive and build something that works, I netdeck, won't lie, but I also don't find attraction in the t1 decks. I currently run a t1.5 when i want to win and a mono white allies for fun. My meta isnt the greatest on competition there is only 2-3 people I ever have issues with. One being an old pro, my room mate, and one other friend. Because I know they have the skill to compete (granted my roomy runs titan ramp)
sure, madness, and astral slide were under 200.00, i graciously give you that. Affinity was not sir. I can easily remember many, not just one or two, of my friends buying glimmervoid at its height for 20.00 a piece, and archbound for 25.00 a piece.
those cards alone mean that the deck cost 180.00, just by themselves, and still ran additional cards, like blinkmoth and plating (which was a 5.00 uncommon in its day) and pre-banning affinity was a heck of a lot more expensive.
no deck was over 300.00, really?
doran rock was the by far most expensive deck in standard up to that point. between the pain lands, doran, murmoring bosk, chameleon colossus, thoughtsieze, tarmogoyf, so on and so forth....well, that deck was STUPID expensive, and was easily at 700.00 if not MORE prior to rotation.
faeries was EASILY over 300.00 and close to the 500.00 mark if you purchased it during its height...with mutavault being a 40.00 card, and bitterblossom also a 40.00 card, then lets look at the deck that runs thoughtsieze, damnation, ancesteral visions, mistbind clique (who himself hit 10.00 in its day) scion of oona (also hit 10.00 before people figured out it was a bad card) and the host of other rares that saw play in it.
solar flare, if built right, had a 300.00 MANA BASE alone. as at its heights the ravnica lands were 25.00 a piece. (not all of them, but for some reason, hallowed fountain, watery grave, and godless shrine certainly were). now, that doesn't even begin to touch kokusho, yosei, gifts ungiven, and any of the other stuff that saw play in solar flare.
affinity was itself well over 200.00, and tooth and nail was too (as it typically was the only thing that answered affinity)
sure, in the long list of magic arcana you have mentioned a few decks that arent expensive, and i do understand that my memory isn't PROOF, but unfortunately there is no catalog of historical events to guide us through that.
additionally, look at how old the examples are....
gruul was certainly over 200.00 by the way. char it self was over 15.00 a shot. add to that the lands, and any chase rare that was in the deck (like solifuge) and that deck, if built optimally, was easily over 200.00, it wasn't over 300.00, but it certainly was over 200.00, boros was jsut as expensive and was also over 200.00, for the exact same reasons (and typically because of the exact same cards)
look, i can keep going, all the way back to covetous fire (which was the first stupid expensive deck i can think of) but i am willing to bet if we scour the deck database, i can find a hell of a lot more decks that broke the 300.00 dollar mark, and almost EVERY tier one deck does.
i don't know what magical christmas land goodness you are living in is, but the magic i have been playing has always been expensive. unlimited was expensive, ice-age had jesters cap at 30.00 a piece, alliance had post and force and horde, all of them were stupid expensive, mirage had frenetic efreet, and that gaggle of cards, as well as chronotog. in Urza all hell breaks loose. grim monolith anyone? does anyone remember how much that card was in standard? how about wildfire? so on and so forth. for their time, i can't remember a deck being under 200.00, and for that matter 300.00, it just isn't there.
there are always going to be the exceptions to the rule. but i am pretty sure, knowing that astral slide and madness were based on uncommon and played a lot of uncommon and commons, if we went back and still built it in its hay day, even knowing that were probably some of the cheapest competitive decks, i am still willing to bet they are or were close to 200.00 in their cost.
magic has always been expensive.
sure the mythic system propagates the problem, but magic has always been expensive.
You're right about the card prices, but there is something missing to that analysis, that has been said many times in the thread. I'm not saying you're wrong with how expensive magic has been in the past, because you're not wrong. But...
In Ravnica, you could actually trade cards. It's crazy I know. But you could trade some remands and lightning helixes for some rares, you could trade Angel of Despair for a Firemane Angel, a Phyrexian Arena for a Char, A Skeletal Vampire for a Teferi, Tormod's Crypt for Loxodon Hierarch, Golgari Grave Troll for the big Ghost Dad, Dark Confidant for a Giant Solifuge. If you pulled something in a pack, you could actually trade it for something you needed. Yes there were crap rares, but the chances of you pulling something useful (by using it, or trading) were much higher than they are now.
As for the faeries era, there were still a large amount of cards that retained value that had use in trading: Stillmoon Cavalier, Chameleon Colossus, Mutavault, Figure of Destiny, Cryptic Command, Demigod of Revenge, Bitterblossom, Thoughtseize, Windbrisk Heights, Ajani Goldmane, Garruk Wildspeaker, Doran, Primal Command, Ancestral Visions, Lotus Bloom, Bogardan Hellkite....you get the idea.
Rares actually had value and you could trade and play them in multiple decks. Now there are only about 5 cards (yes a slight exaggeration) that anyone wants anymore, devaluing so many packs, including the good rares. This doesn't decrease the cost of playing competitive standard, and in fact increases it due to the number of packs opened to obtain said 5 cards.
Now then. I'll stop repeating what's already been said.
Cash? Credit? Gold? or Jace?
Mythics have meant a price jump.. but it is very difficult for more than a single card in a set to hold a value over $30. The sum of the top X mythics in a set given the price is set by mythics (and not rares) works out to how even the distribution is between price of the top mythics. The closer the prices the lower that sum is.
For most recent sets that averages out to be about $75.. or $25 each.. which isn't that big of a change from before. It is only the pre-release hype that makes it higher. Look at Koth, Elspeth, and Venser now at $37, $25, $24,... Scars is still way overpriced since it also has Masticore sitting around $24 and the Mox around $19.. Look at M11.. Primeval Titan ($38), Frost Titan ($20), Baneslayer Angel($18). How about ROE.. Vengevine($35), Gideon Jura($22), Kargan Dragonlord($15)..
I agree it's been harder to Trade, but I think that soon will start to change, once people start properly valuing Mythics. You still will need to trade a couple chase Rares for a Chase Mythic but it won't be the same as it has been. I think for the most part as long as they keep balancing the Mythics we can hope for the most expensive card in a set to sit around $30. This is about $10 higher than back a few years but it is probably the end result of mythics.
The reason the prices have gotten out of hand has been for 3 primary reasons which weren't apparent in the Alara Block Mythics until the whole expansion was printed and well into Zendikar.
1. Jace, the Mindsculptor gets printed in a small set as pretty much the only card of value. Possibly the best multiformat card printed in ages .. (Tarmogoyf, Jitte,.. but even those don't see much Vintage play..). It is worth about as much as a box. You basically only open worldwake to get this card (there are some good rares, but they have to be amazing rares like fetchlands to balance mythics... let's hope the next amazing rare cycle is in the 2nd (small)block of Expansion.)
2. Power creep: It tends to encrouch top down. It tends to be the more powerful rare cards that get the boost first, before they fill out the rest (M11 did a good job of filling out the rest). Whenever it is top heavy it becomes about best cards rather than more subtle synergies. Certain deck designers love it others despise it. SOM while potentially powerful doesn't embrace powercreep in the same way as sets in the past year or so.
3. Targetted removal outclassing permission. Alara's removal lent to who could stick the best bombs.. Playing 4 offs of expensive powerful creatures seemed reasonable. Mana coming easy compounded this with ramp from Zendikar. This also supports big best card strategies. If there weren't reliable ways to ramp up to Eldrazi we would be forced to cheat them into play or forget about it. M11 finally brought a decent generic Counterspell.
From those reasons as long as they don't do another Jace, continue on their lateral instead of upward power movement, and don't drown the format in removal we will probably see most competative decks sit around $300. This is more than $200 of yesteryear but it's a lot less than the $600-$800 we were seeing a few months back. As long as Wizards doesn't screw us with another Jace, I think the average buyer should not be buying any card for over $30 pre-release..
If you really want to get the expensive mythics the best way is probably trading(Save Jace which is a huge mistake and is a whole thing to itself), mostly other Mythics. When a new set comes out and the card is actually good but the prices are artificially high, pick up the support cards that will go in that deck or any other deck based around other artificially high chase mythics, especially any mythic support cards. This takes a bit of playtesting and knowledge of the game I suppose, or atleast some reading. Those support cards will have upward movement while the new cards will only go down in price. Like when I saw Koth spoiled at $50.. there is no way in hell I'd pay that much for a card that would be worth near $30 dollars within a month after release as I figured it. So I picked up Kargan Dragonlords at $7 a piece which within a week or so doubled. Picking up the Venser I wanted became much easier after that. People tend to be really polar on mythics. They either love them or think they are worth less than the paper they are printed on since they are so frusterated not getting the money ones. Any Mythic that has future potential that is priced at $4 is probably worth picking up. That's what I got my Frost Titan's at (I should probably unload them soon, their current hype is a bit too high). Picked up my Lotus Cobra's at $6 a piece... etc. Some cards come out the gate strong then disappear when they aren't good in the current meta or don't have the right support cards. Any mythic like that is worth attention. Like if Mimic Vat or Grand Architect was Mythic and worth $4 I would probably have picked them up. Gaea's Revenge is under $3 right now. Anyway, it's another option other than being a good player but it takes some money because you will find yourself having more cards than just those you play with.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
WW (quest)
RDW
UB Infect
I don't think any of those above tier 1 decks even use mythic cards (except maybe that blue/green sword, but not sure if it's even needed).
Maybe the mythics are there for ramp/control players to create decks that can handle these super fast decks? I think someone before mentioned how mythic valukut decks are. Just food for thought. I think when Jund was at it's peak, even they weren't playing mythics (maelstrom pulse being the most expensive card in their deck?).
From what I can tell, it seems that if it wasn't for these mythic cards, these aggro decks would run rampant throughout the tournaments without any competion (other than each other). Perhaps WOTC didn't want that.
They can still print the bombs at rare, and they would still stop aggro decks, while also being cheaper for the community to get.
Not really trading atm
BRVamps