I agree with David. I don't mind another worldwake, as along as the PW is a black one. Heck, Wizards even stated the best walkers cost 4 mana.
I wouldn't mind a powerful black PW, but I really want to avoid the WWK situation with a single overpowered Mythic rare taking such a large part of the set value...
Dark Ritual into an early planeswalker would just open you up to Force of Will or Daze. Black has more important things to do in the early Legacy game than cast a planeswalker, like disrupt the hell out of its opponent or Tendrils them for 20+.
Dude, don't even kid yourself.
That junk never works with Thoughtseize anymore. Legacy is a whole wide variety of different top tier decks, and the best one using counterspells right now is either Counterbalance or Merfolk.
Having an aggressive Black planeswalker is needed. Don't think Wizards wants to do that just yet though.
Its seems like wizards was looking at standard and said to themselves "OK whats the cheapest deck to play competitively . . . RDW's is like 100 dollars to build. OK well lets give them a awesome planeswalker so THEY'll have to spend alot of money to be competitive to!!! We don't want people dodging those mythics!!"
It's an unsanctioned format that's ridiculously popular. It's to the point that you can ask a totally random Magic player who their EDH general is and likely get an answer.
i'm sure i'm missing something here, but nothing was too off the charts. bitterblossom sold for $7 at the start of lorwyn, and jace beleren was only $12-$15, tops.
in comparison, how many money cards do we have in scars and just how far off the charts are they?
It's an unsanctioned format that's ridiculously popular. It's to the point that you can ask a totally random Magic player who their EDH general is and likely get an answer.
You can sanction EDH as a casual event; it's unrated, but it's still sanctioned.
mutavault ~$20
Mutavault was $50 during states, took a while to drop.
Cryptic was $9 for a while too. I picked mine up at $11 when Cashseize was $25.
BB was $7 for a month or so, then it jumped to $25-30.
Admittedly though, it was a lot cheaper than the current standard.
i'm just glad ratchet bomb isn't mythic, or we'd really see some insanity...
It'd be worse if Wurmcoil Engine hadn't been a promo ^^;
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Randomness:
Quote from Singer of White Line »
Hey, lolis with katanas are awesome, and I don't care about their home country.
It's funny, I remember RDW players *****ing about their lack of a decent 'walker. Now they get one and they ***** because it's the Primeval Titan of the set. There's no winning, is there, Wizards?
Yes, because who would date ***** about having to spend at 200 dollars to keep your deck competitive, not even counting all the OTHER cards that need to go in it to keep it the best.
Certainly not you apparently... but for those of us with huge bills to pay we'll ***** all we want when we have to quit the game we love not out of choice but because we simply can't afford it anymore.
So yeah, wizards is slowly creating two tiers of players, yet somehow they haven't seen it yet, which just plain amazes me considering the amount of petitioning, email sending, and general complaining about the state of the game that's been going on the past year. Either that or they are closing their eyes, covering their ears, and shouting "I can't hear you, I CAN'T HEAR YOU" until it all goes away.
yeah, but rdw (sligh) was always like the cheap date... it didn't take much to put together and you could count on it to score. i don't see too many budget decks that can compete with tier 1 stuff anymore... ww ascension, maybe, if you don't mind buying 8 fetches and some other stuff...
i'm sure wotc is under the gun from hasbro to make some $$. as long as they are raking it in and not alienating their base too much by doing so, i think its safe to say that they'll keep it up. the one good thing players have going for them is that wotc does spend a lot of time listening to the masses. so maybe the madness will end...
Yes, because who would date ***** about having to spend at 200 dollars to keep your deck competitive, not even counting all the OTHER cards that need to go in it to keep it the best.
Certainly not you apparently... but for those of us with huge bills to pay we'll ***** all we want when we have to quit the game we love not out of choice but because we simply can't afford it anymore.
So yeah, wizards is slowly creating two tiers of players, yet somehow they haven't seen it yet, which just plain amazes me considering the amount of petitioning, email sending, and general complaining about the state of the game that's been going on the past year. Either that or they are closing their eyes, covering their ears, and shouting "I can't hear you, I CAN'T HEAR YOU" until it all goes away.
I just threw together a Kiln Fiend-centered red deck, and I don't feel like Koth would add a whole lot to it. Assault Strobe? Now we're talking. There's no mythics in it right now. I might have to get some Dragonlords, but those aren't unreasonable. I guess my point there is you don't need to spend Knight-Errant money on a Wildspeaker-quality 'walker to continue playing your beloved archetype. There's a critical mass of burn spells at the moment, and that's what makes monored viable. If anything, now's the time to prove your skill against all these supposed super-cards.
The two tiers you describe have always existed, it's just the numbers have increased with inflation and economic strife and whatnot. I'm not bill-free for your information, but I wanted the cards I have, so I got them. I could have gotten other things, taken care of obligations, or saved that money, but to whatever consequence it brings me, I acquired silly-looking rectangles that let me capture a few moments of my youth while simultaneously creating much more victory-laden moments. I will say that it does kind of suck that a great deal of the noteworthy Scars cards are mythic rares, which makes buying a box chancy to the point where I purchased singles instead. On the bright side, I'm getting exactly what I want. I don't really trade outside my circle of noobish friends, since that keeps everything within a "Hey, I need ____ to violate faces." away, so buying things is the most convenient way to get what I want. I realize this isn't the case for everyone, and it sucks, having been there, but for every person that quits, two are being sucked in, so I wouldn't expect any revolutionary changes soon.
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"The imagination is not a State: it is the Human existence itself." - William Blake
Holy crap, despite playing Legacy against a wider variety of decks than I've ever seen in Standard, somehow I didn't realize that.
So a snarky remark that actually has no intelligence behind it, due to the fact you don't like being corrected. Great. Another one of you guys.
Sides, if you're playing against Fish, odds are they're going to be able to attack the thing before long.
Sides, since that's "the cool thing" to say if you actually had some competitive background, Merfolk wins off of aggro, but is a completely different story compared to goblins. Merfolk lock you out first, then swing... well if you're good. I haven't played as much legacy as I want to, but that is a horrible and grossly incorrect presentation of the deck. Also, a great indicator of how low your knowledge about the game is.
Back On Topic@ I don't think we will ever see a black planeswalker at the power level of Koth, blacks flavor is sacrifice towards power, and as of lately that sacrifice is a grossly huge converted mana cost. See Sorin. I don't know if this is just me, but every broken black card just seems more irritating, both competitively and casually. Take discard for example, if it's too good, everyone complains about it. Look at Thoughtseize and Blightning. Then every black card that gained any kind of advantage:Damnation? Bitterblossom? The last thing Wizards wants to do, is print super gross powerful black cards, they make the game more often than not "unfun" for the opponent, and generally the player. I don't mind black in general, but I honestly think from a design perspective, that is needs a HUGE makeover, and as much as I don't like saying it: Vampires is a good direction.
I'm still surprised in M2010 they brought back Duress. The last time that was reprinted was 7th edition, and was categorized as "too powerful" along with Counterspell and Lightning Bolt. It really shows how the game has evolved in complexity and power creep. Yet Wizards is smart enough to not bring back the father of all problems, which I secretly hate, but at the same time applaud them for giving great alternatives.
So calm down kid, you won a few FNM's, I don't you coming on here slapping me around with little to no logic and snarky remarks after I've been dominating the past 2 years of standard, then sharing everything I know with the community. Build a reputation first on these forums at least, I've done primers, been praised for my help on multiple decks, been thanked for doing playtesting with other top players in my province. Look in the archives, and if you want, go ahead and look at the front page for DCI ratings in Canada.
I know I'm not a moderator, but being snarky is just a big a waste of time as spam. If I am wrong, I've admitted it before, and I don't mind doing it again. Don't snark me or my words, unless you like to have a logical debate.
That junk never works with Thoughtseize anymore. Legacy is a whole wide variety of different top tier decks, and the best one using counterspells right now is either Counterbalance or Merfolk.
Having an aggressive Black planeswalker is needed. Don't think Wizards wants to do that just yet though.
Having a PW a dark ritual and a thoughtsieze in your hand is not very likely. Even if when you do get that it is likely that your opponent will have multiple counters or a counter and brainstorm.
The two tiers you describe have always existed, it's just the numbers have increased with inflation and economic strife and whatnot. .
No one is denying that the two tiers have always existed, it's just that in addition to both tiers getting more expensive, the gap between them has grown.
Inflation has little to do with it, have the price of booster packs doubled in the past 5 year?
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
No one is denying that the two tiers have always existed, it's just that in addition to both tiers getting more expensive, the gap between them has grown.
Inflation has little to do with it, have the price of booster packs doubled in the past 5 year?
No, there has been a 20-25% increase in price though.
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"The imagination is not a State: it is the Human existence itself." - William Blake
is that true, or is that just the retail truth? it seems to me that if i buy packs, you're right. if i buy boxes or cases, tho, it seems to be almost the same... can someone who knows for sure give the facts?
is that true, or is that just the retail truth? it seems to me that if i buy packs, you're right. if i buy boxes or cases, tho, it seems to be almost the same... can someone who knows for sure give the facts?
The problem is that there are "general probabilities" no facts whatsoever.
We cannot guarantee you what will be opened. I saw one guy open 7 boxes of WWK trying to get Jace, pulled ZERO.
If you want a competitive deck, buy singles. Then learn how to buy really good singles for really good prices.
Merfolk lock you out first, then swing... well if you're good. I haven't played as much legacy as I want to, but that is a horrible and grossly incorrect presentation of the deck.
Cursecatcher or Aether Vial turn one, then another merfolk on turn two is grossly incorrect?
I'm still surprised in M2010 they brought back Duress.
I'm not. Wizards is interested in pushing creature strategies, so printing a strong "generic noncreature strategy" hate card is good for their intentions. It's Ostracize that you're probably never seeing again. Saying "vampires is a good direction" in lieu of printing, say, mono-black control cards only emphasizes the sad mentality that control and combo are "un-fun" archetypes and that aggro is the only "fun" archetype. It leads to very boring Standard metagames compared to the very wide-open Legacy metagame where you can play pretty much any archetype you like and expect it to be reasonably well-balanced.
I'm so tired of this arguement... "You realize without mythics keeping all the good normal rares in check (fetch lands, man lands, etc)? Those prices would pretty much balance out. No way a fetch back in Onslaught Standard went for under 10 dollars." My counter-arguement is that I could save up $20 a week and get 2 fetches or 2 Goblin Piledrivers or 2 Ravagers and eventually have a deck. With today's prices on mythics, saving $20 a week will get me half a Vengevine. By the time I make that deck, they are rotated... Also, playing Goblins, Madness, or Affinity could be done without the money rares at FNM. If I have two Ravagers, I can replace the other two with Atogs. If I have two Piledrivers, I can play extra one drops or more Gempalms. See where I'm going with this?
The problem is that there are "general probabilities" no facts whatsoever.
We cannot guarantee you what will be opened. I saw one guy open 7 boxes of WWK trying to get Jace, pulled ZERO.
Aww man that's ROUGH! I have had the worst luck opening Scars packs. Not a single money mythic while a Koth, Venser, or Mox gets opened up every draft by others around me. Some noobs GF cracked 2x Moxes and a Koth out of her 6 Limited packs the other day >.< WHY NOT MEEEE!
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RBVampires of Oxid RidgeBR RMythic RedR RRDWR
EDH GRBAdun OakenshieldBRG
I'm so tired of this arguement... "You realize without mythics keeping all the good normal rares in check (fetch lands, man lands, etc)? Those prices would pretty much balance out. No way a fetch back in Onslaught Standard went for under 10 dollars." My counter-arguement is that I could save up $20 a week and get 2 fetches or 2 Goblin Piledrivers or 2 Ravagers and eventually have a deck. With today's prices on mythics, saving $20 a week will get me half a Vengevine. By the time I make that deck, they are rotated... Also, playing Goblins, Madness, or Affinity could be done without the money rares at FNM. If I have two Ravagers, I can replace the other two with Atogs. If I have two Piledrivers, I can play extra one drops or more Gempalms. See where I'm going with this?
I agree. The worst part about mythics is that there are no substitutes. As far as SoM goes, I can see that the only playable rares, barring the duals, are more or less HALF than the playable mythics when it comes to competitive.
For rares, we got Ratchet Bomb, and to a lesser extent, cards like Argentum Armor, Genesis Wave,Tunnel Ignus, Mimic Vat and Grand Architect. For mythics, there's Koth, Wurmcoil Engine, Mox Opal, Molten-Tail Masticore, Venser, and to a lesser extent, Elspeth.
I wouldn't be surprised if the game shifts as to having more mythics than rares in a deck *coughvalakutcough*.
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"In the darkest hour, in the eye of the storm, we stand together - an unbreakable force of bros!"
soo, anyone can tell my why mox opal is still worth that much? I mean, he is in like no competetive or developing competetive deck?
Most likely reasons: it's new, it has the word "Mox" in its name, it's mythic, and the set it's in hasn't been available for long enough to meet the initial rush of demand. It's also pretty much guaranteed to become a staple of eternal formats, which means that once its price stabilizes it'll hold value for a long time, making it an attractive investment for people whose business is buying and selling cards.
I wouldn't mind a powerful black PW, but I really want to avoid the WWK situation with a single overpowered Mythic rare taking such a large part of the set value...
Dude, don't even kid yourself.
That junk never works with Thoughtseize anymore. Legacy is a whole wide variety of different top tier decks, and the best one using counterspells right now is either Counterbalance or Merfolk.
Having an aggressive Black planeswalker is needed. Don't think Wizards wants to do that just yet though.
Here in Indonesia with an average salary of $300/month for bachelor graduate cant afford to play standard.
Lots of ppl here are quitting MTG. Thx God for the new EDH format that made them able to have a good time w/o have to spend much money on mithics.=)
Holy crap, despite playing Legacy against a wider variety of decks than I've ever seen in Standard, somehow I didn't realize that.
Sides, if you're playing against Fish, odds are they're going to be able to attack the thing before long.
and EDH is?
(pardon my ignorance)
It's an unsanctioned format that's ridiculously popular. It's to the point that you can ask a totally random Magic player who their EDH general is and likely get an answer.
srsly, tho... when lorwyn came out there were how many money cards (price>=$20) at what price?
thoughtseize ~$20
garruk ~$25
cryptic ~$20
mutavault ~$20
i'm sure i'm missing something here, but nothing was too off the charts. bitterblossom sold for $7 at the start of lorwyn, and jace beleren was only $12-$15, tops.
in comparison, how many money cards do we have in scars and just how far off the charts are they?
venser: $30-$35
koth: $45
elspeth: $35-$40
mox opal: $30
molten tail masticore: $24
i'm just glad ratchet bomb isn't mythic, or we'd really see some insanity...
the point is: the power level of mythics has climbed and we therefore see more and more (insane) money cards.
my guess is that means that ripping boxes open when new sets come out is more and more worthwhile and thus we get more sets that go out of print.
wotc is happy, i'm sure. but it does make it harder for an everyday guy to sling with the guy who spent $$$ on their deck...
My Trades
Far out, man
You can sanction EDH as a casual event; it's unrated, but it's still sanctioned.
Mutavault was $50 during states, took a while to drop.
Cryptic was $9 for a while too. I picked mine up at $11 when Cashseize was $25.
BB was $7 for a month or so, then it jumped to $25-30.
Admittedly though, it was a lot cheaper than the current standard.
It'd be worse if Wurmcoil Engine hadn't been a promo ^^;
Yes, because who would date ***** about having to spend at 200 dollars to keep your deck competitive, not even counting all the OTHER cards that need to go in it to keep it the best.
Certainly not you apparently... but for those of us with huge bills to pay we'll ***** all we want when we have to quit the game we love not out of choice but because we simply can't afford it anymore.
So yeah, wizards is slowly creating two tiers of players, yet somehow they haven't seen it yet, which just plain amazes me considering the amount of petitioning, email sending, and general complaining about the state of the game that's been going on the past year. Either that or they are closing their eyes, covering their ears, and shouting "I can't hear you, I CAN'T HEAR YOU" until it all goes away.
i'm sure wotc is under the gun from hasbro to make some $$. as long as they are raking it in and not alienating their base too much by doing so, i think its safe to say that they'll keep it up. the one good thing players have going for them is that wotc does spend a lot of time listening to the masses. so maybe the madness will end...
My Trades
Far out, man
I just threw together a Kiln Fiend-centered red deck, and I don't feel like Koth would add a whole lot to it. Assault Strobe? Now we're talking. There's no mythics in it right now. I might have to get some Dragonlords, but those aren't unreasonable. I guess my point there is you don't need to spend Knight-Errant money on a Wildspeaker-quality 'walker to continue playing your beloved archetype. There's a critical mass of burn spells at the moment, and that's what makes monored viable. If anything, now's the time to prove your skill against all these supposed super-cards.
The two tiers you describe have always existed, it's just the numbers have increased with inflation and economic strife and whatnot. I'm not bill-free for your information, but I wanted the cards I have, so I got them. I could have gotten other things, taken care of obligations, or saved that money, but to whatever consequence it brings me, I acquired silly-looking rectangles that let me capture a few moments of my youth while simultaneously creating much more victory-laden moments. I will say that it does kind of suck that a great deal of the noteworthy Scars cards are mythic rares, which makes buying a box chancy to the point where I purchased singles instead. On the bright side, I'm getting exactly what I want. I don't really trade outside my circle of noobish friends, since that keeps everything within a "Hey, I need ____ to violate faces." away, so buying things is the most convenient way to get what I want. I realize this isn't the case for everyone, and it sucks, having been there, but for every person that quits, two are being sucked in, so I wouldn't expect any revolutionary changes soon.
"Stoned players can't attack, block, or play spells or abilities."
So a snarky remark that actually has no intelligence behind it, due to the fact you don't like being corrected. Great. Another one of you guys.
Sides, since that's "the cool thing" to say if you actually had some competitive background, Merfolk wins off of aggro, but is a completely different story compared to goblins. Merfolk lock you out first, then swing... well if you're good. I haven't played as much legacy as I want to, but that is a horrible and grossly incorrect presentation of the deck. Also, a great indicator of how low your knowledge about the game is.
Back On Topic@ I don't think we will ever see a black planeswalker at the power level of Koth, blacks flavor is sacrifice towards power, and as of lately that sacrifice is a grossly huge converted mana cost. See Sorin. I don't know if this is just me, but every broken black card just seems more irritating, both competitively and casually. Take discard for example, if it's too good, everyone complains about it. Look at Thoughtseize and Blightning. Then every black card that gained any kind of advantage:Damnation? Bitterblossom? The last thing Wizards wants to do, is print super gross powerful black cards, they make the game more often than not "unfun" for the opponent, and generally the player. I don't mind black in general, but I honestly think from a design perspective, that is needs a HUGE makeover, and as much as I don't like saying it: Vampires is a good direction.
I'm still surprised in M2010 they brought back Duress. The last time that was reprinted was 7th edition, and was categorized as "too powerful" along with Counterspell and Lightning Bolt. It really shows how the game has evolved in complexity and power creep. Yet Wizards is smart enough to not bring back the father of all problems, which I secretly hate, but at the same time applaud them for giving great alternatives.
So calm down kid, you won a few FNM's, I don't you coming on here slapping me around with little to no logic and snarky remarks after I've been dominating the past 2 years of standard, then sharing everything I know with the community. Build a reputation first on these forums at least, I've done primers, been praised for my help on multiple decks, been thanked for doing playtesting with other top players in my province. Look in the archives, and if you want, go ahead and look at the front page for DCI ratings in Canada.
I know I'm not a moderator, but being snarky is just a big a waste of time as spam. If I am wrong, I've admitted it before, and I don't mind doing it again. Don't snark me or my words, unless you like to have a logical debate.
Having a PW a dark ritual and a thoughtsieze in your hand is not very likely. Even if when you do get that it is likely that your opponent will have multiple counters or a counter and brainstorm.
No one is denying that the two tiers have always existed, it's just that in addition to both tiers getting more expensive, the gap between them has grown.
Inflation has little to do with it, have the price of booster packs doubled in the past 5 year?
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
No, there has been a 20-25% increase in price though.
"Stoned players can't attack, block, or play spells or abilities."
My Trades
Far out, man
The problem is that there are "general probabilities" no facts whatsoever.
We cannot guarantee you what will be opened. I saw one guy open 7 boxes of WWK trying to get Jace, pulled ZERO.
If you want a competitive deck, buy singles. Then learn how to buy really good singles for really good prices.
Cursecatcher or Aether Vial turn one, then another merfolk on turn two is grossly incorrect?
I'm not. Wizards is interested in pushing creature strategies, so printing a strong "generic noncreature strategy" hate card is good for their intentions. It's Ostracize that you're probably never seeing again. Saying "vampires is a good direction" in lieu of printing, say, mono-black control cards only emphasizes the sad mentality that control and combo are "un-fun" archetypes and that aggro is the only "fun" archetype. It leads to very boring Standard metagames compared to the very wide-open Legacy metagame where you can play pretty much any archetype you like and expect it to be reasonably well-balanced.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7718699&postcount=248
Aww man that's ROUGH! I have had the worst luck opening Scars packs. Not a single money mythic while a Koth, Venser, or Mox gets opened up every draft by others around me. Some noobs GF cracked 2x Moxes and a Koth out of her 6 Limited packs the other day >.< WHY NOT MEEEE!
RMythic RedR
RRDWR
EDH
GRBAdun OakenshieldBRG
I agree. The worst part about mythics is that there are no substitutes. As far as SoM goes, I can see that the only playable rares, barring the duals, are more or less HALF than the playable mythics when it comes to competitive.
For rares, we got Ratchet Bomb, and to a lesser extent, cards like Argentum Armor, Genesis Wave,Tunnel Ignus, Mimic Vat and Grand Architect. For mythics, there's Koth, Wurmcoil Engine, Mox Opal, Molten-Tail Masticore, Venser, and to a lesser extent, Elspeth.
I wouldn't be surprised if the game shifts as to having more mythics than rares in a deck *coughvalakutcough*.
RMythic RedR
RRDWR
EDH
GRBAdun OakenshieldBRG
Indeed.
Valakut: 11 mythic, 9 rare
UR Force: 10 mythic, 8 rare
UW Control: 13 mythic, 16 rare
And really, almost all rares used are dual lands anyway.
Most likely reasons: it's new, it has the word "Mox" in its name, it's mythic, and the set it's in hasn't been available for long enough to meet the initial rush of demand. It's also pretty much guaranteed to become a staple of eternal formats, which means that once its price stabilizes it'll hold value for a long time, making it an attractive investment for people whose business is buying and selling cards.
----
Lightning Bolts don't kill creatures. State-based actions kill creatures.