Also, I wish they would (re)print something that made Punishing Fire abuseable again, so we could play the PA deck of olde. Here's hoping for Grove Of The Burnwillows in the next core set, alongside Manamorphose & Ponder
Any love for Punishing Fire? I think it's actually kind of good/cute. It's relevant against Kalastria Highborn, Kor Firewalker, Batterskull, Sword Of War And Peace, Baneslayer Angel, Wurmcoil Engine, etc.
Punishing fire used to be in my deck for the purpose of obliterating certain soul sisters, but it had the unusual side effect of killing people that played a firewalker. But yeah, the grove would be cool.
However, it's probably more likely to get a M12 ponder; I can't wait until it's back in so it can show preordain how it's done.
If batterskull, baneslayer, a war and peace'd hawk, or a wurmcoil hit you, no amount of punishing fires can really save you at that point.
I've justified myself to build a second, exact replica of the deck. For friends use, etc.
Several of my friends are pretty new to magic, and absolutely loved my PA deck. It's just such a new thing compared to every deck they had before that probably depended on swinging in with fatties. At least one of them still have the Time Warp version built, but also with boomerangs, which can be brutal.
I've got 17 Splinter Twin. Who wants them?
I do, I do; I'll be your best friend forever. My shop already jacked them up to like 8 dollars.
Quick question. I have PA out then I cast my first Steady Progress with no counter to proliferate. I then cast my second Steady Progress. Does the second Progress add a counter AND proliferate that counter?
Quick question. I have PA out then I cast my first Steady Progress with no counter to proliferate. I then cast my second Steady Progress. Does the second Progress add a counter AND proliferate that counter?
If either of Pyromancer Ascension's abilities triggers, it will go on the stack on top of the spell that caused it to trigger. The ability will resolve first.
Meaning the counter goes on first, then your spell resolves.
Yes
Keep in mind:
The second ability triggers only if Pyromancer Ascension already has two quest counters on it at the time you cast an instant or sorcery spell. This means a spell can't both cause the second counter to be put on Pyromancer Ascension and become copied.
Yes. Two Steady Progress will activate the ascension. Ascension gets a counter whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell with the same name as an instant or sorcery spell in your graveyard.
You cast the second Steady Progress. Pyromancer Ascension gets a counter. You draw a card. Proliferate. Pyromancer Ascension is now active.
Different question regarding Call to Mind, how do the copies resolve? Can I let the original resolve first and then call it back with a copy, or do the copies resolve first?
Thanks for the answers, thats what I had thought. A friend was using them in his list and seemed to be doing pretty well. Liked the idea so thought I'd give it a try in my first go with PA. Heres a list of what ill be running.
I feel like Pyromancer Ascension is a well-positioned card advantage machine, and the endgame involving 2 Call to Minds is unparalleled in this format. I treat it a lot like the way I treat either version of Jace: it helps draw cards and fix board positions, and it helps you get out from behind or get more ahead when you're already ahead. You can win with the card, but it's usually just a good draw engine/board control tool. In contrast, Ascension costs half the mana as a Mind Sculptor and it produces about ten times the card advantage for a small investment of time (while being a more difficult permanent to remove in many circumstances).
I like 4 Into the Roil. That card can get you out of so many situations, and even bring you ahead in many cases. I have been trying to find a deck which can support 4 maindeck Roils, and Pyromancer seems to be the one. I know that it seems kind of slow or it seems like it's card disadvantage, but think of it this way: the first one will usually be unkicked, the second one will usually blow your opponent out and draw a card, and the third one will bounce 2-3 permanents and draw you 2-3 cards. I always want to see a Roil in every game in every match-up, as it is the card that makes me feel safer than any other answer in the entire format. Often, I'm digging for a second or third copy. So considering those facts and the understanding that Pyromancer Ascension demands maximum copies of cards with the same name, I play 4.
I find that Gitaxian Probe is worth maindecking as a strong cantrip. If you think that something along the lines of a removal spell or a counterspell is a better metagame call, then it's probably better than running Probes. I personally board out Probe almost every single match, but I don't really like any of my sideboard tools enough to be maindecked. Maybe Pyroclasm or Misstep could be maindecked if the meta is specific enough in either direction, but I would rather play a cantrip for now.
From my testing so far, Probe is definitely better than See Beyond (although maybe I'm biased here because I've always thought that See Beyond was rather weak) and Steady Progress, which seem to be the other 2 main options for relatively cantrips. What makes it better is that, because it's 0-1 mana, you can play it early like a Preordain or Halimar Depths. It works a bit backwards towards hitting the same goal as those two setup cards. Preordain and Halimar Depths are there to set up your draw and sculpt a hand both proactively and in preparation for what your opponent could do. On the other hand, Probe sets you up by taking a look at your opponent's chess pieces and giving you valuable information about how you should go about playing your spells. I've been playing with Peek in High Tide for years and I cannot stress enough how strong that kind of tool is in any deck which wants the cantrip...so running Probes seems to be a no-brainer. However, like I said earlier, there is only so much space in a deck. If more answers are required, then something like Misstep or Burst or Pyroclasm may be more important.
I try to test most every potential combo and control idea for a PTQ season, so I follow a lot of forum threads in search for information. I figured I should give back to one which has been a help to inspire me. Some good ideas are bouncing around in this thread.
This is a very cool idea. I definitely agree with what you said earlier about PA's application as an engine within a control deck rather than a combo piece. The trick, I think, is forging an identity for the deck that isn't just RUG Jace Ramp without the ramp or the Jace but with Pyromancer Ascension, which you seem to have done.
However, I am a bit concerned about running a playset of Explore with only 24 lands to support it. My time playing Eldrazi Green and Valakut lead me to believe that 26 lands was the minimum to support Explore; however, with the card draw/filtering, that could be different here.
I am also curious about Jace's Ingenuity. I've tested it in the UR version, and it's an extremely powerful card. However, again, with 24 lands, I'm not sure how consistently I would be able to cast it.
Anyway, it's a very cool idea and one that I'm interested in testing.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
To anyone who is not yet convinced of the godliness of Neurok Commando: Test it. Seriously. Swallow your pride for a bit and test it. I just won quite a few games online having not seen PA until the very end of the game off the back of the Commando and a bunch of burn. IT IS SO GOOD! seriously.
Other testing note: black discard hurts. like alot. Other than despise, getting one of those resolved against you is tough to come back, as you loose whatever matters most at the time. That is some argument for running mental mistep, as that catches duresses and IoKs. Don't know if it is worth it.
I've got 17 Splinter Twin. Who wants them?
I though i had 3 but it turns out i have only 2. Do you still one have left?
The cat is out of the bag. I played Splinter Mite in extended and one of the problems was how frail pestermite was to any red burn spell. Exarch seems to have taken care of that problem via its huge butt. The combo still did very well, but the deck takes patience. Mental misstep is a must in the 75. A way to stop IoK is so important. Gitaxian Probe also seems like a MD must. Knowing if your opponent has an out is immensely helpful. And its useful after you just played Halimar depths to get the last piece you need to combo out. Also if this deck becomes remotly popular into the roil will be helpful in dealing with torpor orbs and phyrexian revokers. It also deals with phyrexian unlife and norn's annex both of which could be troublesome.
Other cards to consider to protect your combo Apostle's Blessing- can be cast with out W and can protect your exarch from removal.
Norn's revival- a nice way to retrieve exarch or twin that has been destroyed or discarded.
Spellskite- a nice way to protect exarch or twin(helps with beast from within, naturalize, an natures claim.)
getting a certain part of the splintertwin combo countered or removed isnt that big off a deal as the deck has such a strong draw engine and can win without it. (iv never won a game with pyromancers ascension as it always allows me to draw up the other combo faster)
definatly wouldnt play anything apart from spell peirce md as hate
Does anyone have access to SCG Premium? Jacob Van Lunen posted a new list in his Premium Article on SCG and I've been wanting to take a look at it.
Also, I'm thinking of trying this as a fun, yet decent deck after NPH, as I'm pretty sure Mono-Red will get much, much worse. However, how important is JTMS to the deck? The deck that Top-16ed SCG Boston ran 3 with 2 Jace 1 mainded. I actually have 2 JTMS, but really have no interest in getting any more. Is a 2/2 split of Jaces enough? It also lets me convert everything else in the deck to 2 or 4-ofs, which is convenient and allows the deck to feel more streamlined.
I don't think anyone here's found the need for JTMS at all in the deck, though I do think 1 person ran a singleton.
I had a terrible run @ FNM tonight, but that's the way it goes.
Round 1 Valakut against a friend.
I scrape by game 1 with an early live Ascension to his slowroll hand.
Game 2, I've got decent game, but he throws out a Titan that can win, so I Mana Leak into FOUR Summoning Trap (2 of which I loaned him,) which find him 2 Primeval, and 2 Inferno (which I also loaned him.) <_<
Game 3, I get him to 4, 2 MoM in hand, Halimar Depths to put a bolt on top, and he eot cracks Verdant Catacombs into Summoning Trap, then mainphase plays a second Primeval and just kills me...
0-1
Round 2, Vampires
I just get outpaced in a big way both games. He had 10 points of burn available both games, which naturally goes straight to my face, so he doesn't need much in the line of creature work.
0-2
Round 3; blue black mill
He's casting Sign In Bloods targetting me...trying to notch up Jace Beleren...he gets vaporized...
Game 2, he played totally different...he simply sat behind permission and....a Cryptoplasm, which beat me down like 4 turns before I finally burned it. I played a KOTH, Ult'd, played a KOTH, which got to 6, and was then slew by a Frost Titan, but he was low enough on life...
Round 4, mono red land-d with platinum angels?
A young girl piloting a red pile essentially, there was thought behind it, but it was not competitive, I beat it pretty easily.
2 packs, pulled one of each crusader and a foil NEUROK COMMANDO. Feels good, lol.
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I don't think anyone here's found the need for JTMS at all in the deck, though I do think 1 person ran a singleton.
I had a terrible run @ FNM tonight, but that's the way it goes.
Round 1 Valakut against a friend.
I scrape by game 1 with an early live Ascension to his slowroll hand.
Game 2, I've got decent game, but he throws out a Titan that can win, so I Mana Leak into FOUR Summoning Trap (2 of which I loaned him,) which find him 2 Primeval, and 2 Inferno (which I also loaned him.) <_<
Game 3, I get him to 4, 2 MoM in hand, Halimar Depths to put a bolt on top, and he eot cracks Verdant Catacombs into Summoning Trap, then mainphase plays a second Primeval and just kills me...
0-1
Round 2, Vampires
I just get outpaced in a big way both games. He had 10 points of burn available both games, which naturally goes straight to my face, so he doesn't need much in the line of creature work.
0-2
Round 3; blue black mill
He's casting Sign In Bloods targetting me...trying to notch up Jace Beleren...he gets vaporized...
Game 2, he played totally different...he simply sat behind permission and....a Cryptoplasm, which beat me down like 4 turns before I finally burned it. I played a KOTH, Ult'd, played a KOTH, which got to 6, and was then slew by a Frost Titan, but he was low enough on life...
Round 4, mono red land-d with platinum angels?
A young girl piloting a red pile essentially, there was thought behind it, but it was not competitive, I beat it pretty easily.
2 packs, pulled one of each crusader and a foil NEUROK COMMANDO. Feels good, lol.
Thanks for the report, I have getting destroyed by cards I loaned people.
I feel I have the maindeck down pat, but I need some help with the SB, this deck is going to be very popular. I have the technology to beat it though. and any deck can use it.
I feel I have the maindeck down pat, but I need some help with the SB, this deck is going to be very popular. I have the technology to beat it though. and any deck can use it.
I just thought it was the most logical list. red decks seem a little hard to beat, my previous list didn't have the pyro, but was the same list almost. I had 4x Spellskite and 3x Sea Gate Oracle.
Also, Act of Aggression can auto-win against this deck, if they go T3 Exarch, into T4 Splinter Twin, you kill them with infinite guys on your turn. This works because twins exile during the beginning of the end step and they get the guy back at end of turn (during the cleanup step).
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[center]The best combo in Modern is now unbanned, yay!!!
Also, Act of Aggression can auto-win against this deck, if they go T3 Exarch, into T4 Splinter Twin, you kill them with infinite guys on your turn. This works because twins exile during the beginning of the end step and they get the guy back at end of turn (during the cleanup step).
How does it auto win? It just lets them make infinite tokens the turn you try to combo, and block all of yours. None of them survive to their turn, and by that time they've lost control of the Exarch. So all it does is delay it a turn unless they have a removal spell in hand.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I Top 4'd Today.. only lost to Eldrazi Green in the swiss and same guy in the finals.. so dumb -.- Anyways.. Game plan after game 1 was to change to UR control, and it works.. double frost titan hurts people.. lol. Shatter, Arc Trail and Call to mind was just thrown in.. didn't have time to mess with them.. i plan to add Tec'Edge to the board for Eldrazi Green..
How does it auto win? It just lets them make infinite tokens the turn you try to combo, and block all of yours. None of them survive to their turn, and by that time they've lost control of the Exarch. So all it does is delay it a turn unless they have a removal spell in hand.
That's a 56 card list.
Also, no Tectonic Edge?
Nah, keeping mana seemed like a good thing. The control aspect isn't as important now that there are 2 win cons.
Actually now that I think about it, Mana Leak maybe shouldn't even be in the list. Staggershock maybe instead.
And yeah you respond to the Splinter Twin with act. The Twin resolves, and during the end step you make the tokens, which don't die until the end of your turn.
I Top 4'd Today.. only lost to Eldrazi Green in the swiss and same guy in the finals.. so dumb -.- Anyways.. Game plan after game 1 was to change to UR control, and it works.. double frost titan hurts people.. lol. Shatter, Arc Trail and Call to mind was just thrown in.. didn't have time to mess with them.. i plan to add Tec'Edge to the board for Eldrazi Green..
I like the Treasure Hunt, but how is Foresee working? will it transpose over to the post NPH environment?
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@Serenade...should have rolled MoM SB! I don't think 2 Frost Titan AND 2 Wurmcoil Engine are necessary.
Playing 2 copies of Koth SB was really sweet for me, I would buy some to run, but there won't be space/need post-NPH.
I playtested 2 games vs NPH R/U strict combo...it's pretty rough, if they pack a copious amount of permission (and they should.) He beat me game 1, I answer his first DE game 2 and won pretty easily after that.
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Punishing fire used to be in my deck for the purpose of obliterating certain soul sisters, but it had the unusual side effect of killing people that played a firewalker. But yeah, the grove would be cool.
However, it's probably more likely to get a M12 ponder; I can't wait until it's back in so it can show preordain how it's done.
If batterskull, baneslayer, a war and peace'd hawk, or a wurmcoil hit you, no amount of punishing fires can really save you at that point.
Several of my friends are pretty new to magic, and absolutely loved my PA deck. It's just such a new thing compared to every deck they had before that probably depended on swinging in with fatties. At least one of them still have the Time Warp version built, but also with boomerangs, which can be brutal.
I do, I do; I'll be your best friend forever. My shop already jacked them up to like 8 dollars.
Meaning the counter goes on first, then your spell resolves.
Yes
Keep in mind:
You cast the second Steady Progress. Pyromancer Ascension gets a counter. You draw a card. Proliferate. Pyromancer Ascension is now active.
(I have to ask, though - Why Steady Progress? )
▲
▲ ▲
Thanks
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Halimar Depths
8 Island
7 Mountain
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burst Lightning
3 Staggershock
4 Preordain
4 See Beyond
3 Steady Progress
2 Call to Mind
4 Mana Leak
3 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mindsculpter
4 Trapmaker's Snare
4 Archive Trap
4 Pryoclasm
3 Into the Roil
Reading some older posts, I'm thinking I'd like to try and squeeze in some Slagstorms into the main, no more then 3, just not sure what to replace.
Sent you a PM
EDIT: Nvm they finally shipped.
This is a very cool idea. I definitely agree with what you said earlier about PA's application as an engine within a control deck rather than a combo piece. The trick, I think, is forging an identity for the deck that isn't just RUG Jace Ramp without the ramp or the Jace but with Pyromancer Ascension, which you seem to have done.
However, I am a bit concerned about running a playset of Explore with only 24 lands to support it. My time playing Eldrazi Green and Valakut lead me to believe that 26 lands was the minimum to support Explore; however, with the card draw/filtering, that could be different here.
I am also curious about Jace's Ingenuity. I've tested it in the UR version, and it's an extremely powerful card. However, again, with 24 lands, I'm not sure how consistently I would be able to cast it.
Anyway, it's a very cool idea and one that I'm interested in testing.
Other testing note: black discard hurts. like alot. Other than despise, getting one of those resolved against you is tough to come back, as you loose whatever matters most at the time. That is some argument for running mental mistep, as that catches duresses and IoKs. Don't know if it is worth it.
I though i had 3 but it turns out i have only 2. Do you still one have left?
UR Storm WUBRG Sunnyside Up W Death+Taxes BR 7->0:60 Discard
EDH
GU Vig RWU Zedruu BR Olivia
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Mental misstep is a must in the 75. A way to stop IoK is so important.
Gitaxian Probe also seems like a MD must. Knowing if your opponent has an out is immensely helpful. And its useful after you just played Halimar depths to get the last piece you need to combo out. Also if this deck becomes remotly popular into the roil will be helpful in dealing with torpor orbs and phyrexian revokers. It also deals with phyrexian unlife and norn's annex both of which could be troublesome.
Other cards to consider to protect your combo
Apostle's Blessing- can be cast with out W and can protect your exarch from removal.
Norn's revival- a nice way to retrieve exarch or twin that has been destroyed or discarded.
Spellskite- a nice way to protect exarch or twin(helps with beast from within, naturalize, an natures claim.)
Shrine of piercing vision- this one is iffy. but could be a good way to dig.
I think you're being over protective of Deceiver Exarch it's pretty durable and has flash
definatly wouldnt play anything apart from spell peirce md as hate
Also, I'm thinking of trying this as a fun, yet decent deck after NPH, as I'm pretty sure Mono-Red will get much, much worse. However, how important is JTMS to the deck? The deck that Top-16ed SCG Boston ran 3 with 2 Jace 1 mainded. I actually have 2 JTMS, but really have no interest in getting any more. Is a 2/2 split of Jaces enough? It also lets me convert everything else in the deck to 2 or 4-ofs, which is convenient and allows the deck to feel more streamlined.
I had a terrible run @ FNM tonight, but that's the way it goes.
Round 1 Valakut against a friend.
I scrape by game 1 with an early live Ascension to his slowroll hand.
Game 2, I've got decent game, but he throws out a Titan that can win, so I Mana Leak into FOUR Summoning Trap (2 of which I loaned him,) which find him 2 Primeval, and 2 Inferno (which I also loaned him.) <_<
Game 3, I get him to 4, 2 MoM in hand, Halimar Depths to put a bolt on top, and he eot cracks Verdant Catacombs into Summoning Trap, then mainphase plays a second Primeval and just kills me...
0-1
Round 2, Vampires
I just get outpaced in a big way both games. He had 10 points of burn available both games, which naturally goes straight to my face, so he doesn't need much in the line of creature work.
0-2
Round 3; blue black mill
He's casting Sign In Bloods targetting me...trying to notch up Jace Beleren...he gets vaporized...
Game 2, he played totally different...he simply sat behind permission and....a Cryptoplasm, which beat me down like 4 turns before I finally burned it. I played a KOTH, Ult'd, played a KOTH, which got to 6, and was then slew by a Frost Titan, but he was low enough on life...
Round 4, mono red land-d with platinum angels?
A young girl piloting a red pile essentially, there was thought behind it, but it was not competitive, I beat it pretty easily.
2 packs, pulled one of each crusader and a foil NEUROK COMMANDO. Feels good, lol.
Thanks for the report, I have getting destroyed by cards I loaned people.
Act of Agression will be a thorn in the side.
Here is my list
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Halimar Depths
8 Island
4 Mountain
Creature:
4 Deceiver Exarch
Spells:
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Preordain
4 See Beyond
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Splinter Twin
4 Pyromancer Ascension
2 Call to Mind
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Pierce
2 Dispell
4 Mental Misstep
2 Jace Beleren
3 Pyroclasm
3 Act of Aggression
Edit: Derp... Forgot Mana leak. but it could (should?) be staggershock.
Someone posted Chapin's decklist and it's ridiculously similar to that. I'd link it but I can't find it anymore.
Act of Aggression is an instant. By the time they get the chance to cast a sorcery (their turn) they should be dead already.
Also, Act of Aggression can auto-win against this deck, if they go T3 Exarch, into T4 Splinter Twin, you kill them with infinite guys on your turn. This works because twins exile during the beginning of the end step and they get the guy back at end of turn (during the cleanup step).
How does it auto win? It just lets them make infinite tokens the turn you try to combo, and block all of yours. None of them survive to their turn, and by that time they've lost control of the Exarch. So all it does is delay it a turn unless they have a removal spell in hand.
That's a 56 card list.
Also, no Tectonic Edge?
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Halimar Depths
8 Mountains
7 Islands
Spells: 33
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burst Lightning
4 Treasure Hunt
4 Preordain
4 Mana Leak
1 Call to Mind
4 Foresee
4 Into the Roil
4 Spell Pierce
4 Pyromancers Ascension
2 Koth, of the Hammer
2 Frost Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Flashfreeze
2 Shatter
2 Arc Trail
1 Call to Mind
I Top 4'd Today.. only lost to Eldrazi Green in the swiss and same guy in the finals.. so dumb -.- Anyways.. Game plan after game 1 was to change to UR control, and it works.. double frost titan hurts people.. lol. Shatter, Arc Trail and Call to mind was just thrown in.. didn't have time to mess with them.. i plan to add Tec'Edge to the board for Eldrazi Green..
Nah, keeping mana seemed like a good thing. The control aspect isn't as important now that there are 2 win cons.
Actually now that I think about it, Mana Leak maybe shouldn't even be in the list. Staggershock maybe instead.
And yeah you respond to the Splinter Twin with act. The Twin resolves, and during the end step you make the tokens, which don't die until the end of your turn.
I like the Treasure Hunt, but how is Foresee working? will it transpose over to the post NPH environment?
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Preordain
4 Treasure Hunt
4 Explore
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burst Lightning
4 Staggershock
Lands (25)
4 Mountain
4 Island
1 Forest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Copperline Gorge
2 Halimar Depths
2 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Deciever Exarch
3 Splinter Twin
4 Lotus Cobra
2 Inferno Titan
2 Spell Pierce
Playing 2 copies of Koth SB was really sweet for me, I would buy some to run, but there won't be space/need post-NPH.
I playtested 2 games vs NPH R/U strict combo...it's pretty rough, if they pack a copious amount of permission (and they should.) He beat me game 1, I answer his first DE game 2 and won pretty easily after that.