I'll second the addition of Preordain...it's a pretty solid way to start the game, and it's always nice to be ale to get through a couple of bad draws.
I would also try to add in one more baby Jace and maybe some Spreading Seas. Four white Leylines should belong in your board. Dispense Justice seems really out of place...especially as a one-of. I would cut it and one or two Days.
I'll second the addition of Preordain...it's a pretty solid way to start the game, and it's always nice to be ale to get through a couple of bad draws.
I would also try to add in one more baby Jace and maybe some Spreading Seas. Four white Leylines should belong in your board. Dispense Justice seems really out of place...especially as a one-of. I would cut it and one or two Days.
Yeah, pretty much agree. Sphinx isn't so bad, since with no good creature targets for the opponent's removal, a singleton titan will probably just get journeyed. I would edit the number of removal spells and add preordain.
Phyrexian Revoker is something worth looking into for a Venser deck. Sphere of the Suns is a solid card in any slow deck as well, and could allow you to more easily splash another color. Spine of Ish Sah also has potential, though I'm even less a fan of this card than I am of Venser himself. That said, if you get that combo on the board, you're probably going to win.
I looked at the spine and then looked away. It's ok if you're running U/W Shape Anew, but idk if that deck wants Venser (It might..)
I like the Spine in Big Red with Throne of Geth, though.
As for Phyrexian Revoker, it's ok. It still dies to all removal except Go For the Throat and Marsh Casualties, which is unfortunate. I might test it, but i'm not freaking out over it. I feel like I need 2 more revokers to name all the cards that would kill the one naming Jace the Mind Sculptor, haha.
Basically, the only card I like for U/W after rotation is Leonin Relic-Guard, sideboard. There are other cards I want to "Break" though, or at least test:
Knowledge pool is neat if you play a high-curve U/W or Bant list. Mirrorworks is really interesting, but I'm not sure if it's good enough. Vensering a Wurmcoil Engine after combat and getting a copy is pretty sick.
I like what you said about Sphere of the Suns...sort of.
The only color that needed to be any faster was Bant, and I like Birds of Paradise a lot better than Sphere of the Suns. It mana fixes and hits metalcraft, so it has a place in a metalcraft build, but not by the merit of it's own text in the Venser control list. It's not dynamic enough.
After testing all the color variations thoroughly, I didn't abandon 3 color because it was hard to color-fix; the idea hit the backburner because the U/W list was the most successful, the most powerful. I'm sticking with that.
Here's my list, obviously once MBS is legal (only a little while longer). The Treasure Mages search up some of the craziest Venser targets, namely Myr Battlesphere and Spine of Ish Sah. Tumble Magnet is really good at stopping aggressive strategies without investing mana turn after turn. Resetting the charges on it with Venser means you can continually do it.
Let me know what you think of the list. I'm not really going to change anything in the maindeck unless there's a really really important reason why. I think in an aggro environment Wall of Omens may be acceptable, but I feel like the Mages are somewhat better because they can trade with some things and search up relevant stuff.
You may notice this is remarkably similar to a plain-old UW control deck with some nifty artifact/Venser synergies put in. That's because that's essentially what this is. UW it a really strong deck and it has game against everything. The addition of Venser and the artifacts means it can do better against other control decks, which UW typically has a hard time with.
Sideboard is meta-dependent.
I approve of this deck. I've been thinking for a while about metalcraft Venser and this seems like a good first approach. Playtesting and refining will tell if it's viable.
Frost Titan: He's seeing less play lately except in G/U, because unless you're locking down fast, you better be locking down multiple things. Venser is great with Frosty, so he's still a 2-of after most control lists would rather cut him.
Sun Titan: Really only in the list to recur Jace Beleren and Tectonic Edge, though, that's really enough. I toyed with a second and pushed my mana curve too high.
Agreed about the titans. I play 2 Sun myself, but I have more and better targets for him, so it's ok.
Emeria Angel: Good against Aggro, good against Control, and makes venser bouncing a land less terrible, because it does happen. Great synergy with Elspeth.
Is this assessment tested at all? Aggro bolts it and control, well, I'm not going to list all the cards that control has to deal with this. The only archetype I can see having a bit of trouble with this is non-valakut ramp.
Augury Owl: Struggled here back and forth between this and my old buddy Sea Gate Oracle. I found my turn 2-3-4-5 play structure worked better if I had a 2-drop here, but I didn't want to lose the Venser Deck manipulation. Not drawing a card isn't ideal, but scrying 3 is worth more to me than a draw with Wall of Omens.
That's why the owl should replace Wall, not Oracle. In fact, that's a great idea. I'm going to try it myself. But seriously, don't lose the oracle, this deck really needs card advantage to beat control.
Day of Judgment, Journey to Nowhere, Condemn: Aggro is prevalent in my meta, so after board it's basically a bye with 13 removal spells. Hopefully...
I understand that your meta is heavy in removal. But rather than having so many of these spells inundating your main that are increasingly useless against ramp and control, why don't you just have 4 Ratchet bombs in the side? Bomb deals much better with the kind of aggro that sees play in this meta (Quest, Elves, Boros and Vamps)
Diminish: With Emeria Angel, you get these weird turn 5's that are pretty tech against the aggro matchup. Tapping 4 for Emeria Angel, then playing an island, Glacial Fortress, or Misty Rainforest and getting a bird is a great "Pass." I ended up with a dead mana after every turn 5, so I threw in the 2 Condemns and 1 Diminish to try and get value off my opponent's swing. Diminish should be pretty consistently just a better Condemn with all the 1/1's on my field all the time.
Sorry but Diminish is awful and one copy does hardly anything but take a valuable slot in your deck. If you want to do something with your 5 mana drop venser or a 3 CMC guy with Mana leak backup.
4 Mana Leak, 2 Deprive: Playing control is better with Venser than forcing him into a less-than-stellar aggro list with 28 creatures. Deprive has great synergy with Emeria Angel, and it's often not expected when Valakut plays around Mana Leak.
I agree with your last statement here. Meaning that Deprive is a card that would be better in your sideboard. It might be synergetic with Angel but is antisynergetic with the idea of a control deck with expensive finishers.
4x Preordain: Still better deck manipulation than Sea Gate Oracle, even with Venser.
No. It is not. I'd argue that Halimar Depths and Preordain can be compared (I'd still pick Depths as it doesn't take spell slots form my deck,) but SGO is out of the competition. The fact that it blocks and survives (even kills!) most of Aggro's creatures and that it can be absurdly abused by Venser makes the Oracle a must. If you want to do it on turn 1, just play Halimar Depths, especially if you know that you can follow with an Augury Owl to get rid of undesirable cards.
2x Elspeth Tirel: She's Venser's girlfriend. Set her to 2, make tokens, then Venser her to put her back to 4 is consistently good. She also works wonders against rogue decks like Big Red, who have some number of artifacts and planeswalkers that we can't otherwise destroy.
Except that she competes in Mana cost with Venser and besides the Loyalty replenishing they have hardly any interaction. If you need non creature destruction, run more Ratchet Bombs, which will spare most of your stuff and can be abused with Sun Titan
.
1x Gideon Jura: The list might want a second.
2x Venser: MY BRO!
For being your bro, you have too few copies of him. On the other hand, your deck hardly needs him. I'd indeed raise the copies of Gideon, keep Elspeth and go for a Caw-Go kind of strategy, dropping the Venser-deck pretensions from the deck that only makes it unfocused and random.
Lands: I needed 4 Fetches for Emeria Angel, so I dropped some Seachrome Coast.
You hurt your mana balance to support a card that shouldn't be there to begin with. Angel belongs in a deck with creature enhancers such as Ajani and Honor of the Pure, not here. I'm sorry being so harsh about your choices but I want you to have a good deck. I'm not saying that your deck is abd and has no choice of winning whatsoever, but if you seriously want to win more than an odd game here and there, you have to be tighter.
I always found Silence Combo to be the BEST Venser deck. Hands down. In testing it just...does the best. I've played every Venser deck under the sun since his release and am still trying new things with him but Silence combo had the best match-ups. The thing with Silence is that people don;t really know how to use it. That card could be MONSTROUS when used correctly. Time walk even. This was my list and it confidently beat out Valakut, RUG and UB on several occasions. (UB being the hardest of the 3 but still very manageable)
I dunno... I have faced that deck a few times and I've always found it too easy to disrupt and too reliant in good draws. I've gone 2-0 against it several times, except once I went 2-1, and yeah that game I lost was a brutal, unbreakable lock, but it happened because I couldn't find any of the several answers I had for it. I wish I had more to say about it, but i seriously don't see how to improve it while keeping the main idea.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
I approve of this deck. I've been thinking for a while about metalcraft Venser and this seems like a good first approach. Playtesting and refining will tell if it's viable.
Agreed about the titans. I play 2 Sun myself, but I have more and better targets for him, so it's ok.
The titans are good stuff. Both agreed.
Is this assessment tested at all? Aggro bolts it and control, well, I'm not going to list all the cards that control has to deal with this. The only archetype I can see having a bit of trouble with this is non-valakut ramp.
Unlike some of my educated guesses, this is very much tested. Tested over 60 or 70 games.
Emeria Angel works great in the control matchup. I have titans, and I have planeswalkers, must-answer threats that Control loses if they don't have a response. Because of that, Emeria is fantastic in that matchup.
Caw-go has a really good toolbox with the Hawks because A) few are willing to use removal on them and B) they have an easy time keeping planeswalkers at bay with their damage. My bird tokens have a similar effect to Squadron hawk, and it works enormously well. Against aggro, having chumpers to match their creature density without filling my deck with creatures is a house.
I love the angel, I suggest testing it, it's great! Bolting hasn't even happened more than once in 4 FNM's. Her dying isn't a reality- serously, it just doesn't happen. At least, not in my meta...
That's why the owl should replace Wall, not Oracle. In fact, that's a great idea. I'm going to try it myself. But seriously, don't lose the oracle, this deck really needs card advantage to beat control.
I have four Jace Belerens, and they're enough. I swim in CA. I like the owl because it digs for specifics. It's like preordains 5 and 6. Sometimes it's power is relevant, like with the miser Diminish (I killed a Wurmcoil Engine with it tonight, haha)
I understand that your meta is heavy in removal. But rather than having so many of these spells inundating your main that are increasingly useless against ramp and control, why don't you just have 4 Ratchet bombs in the side? Bomb deals much better with the kind of aggro that sees play in this meta (Quest, Elves, Boros and Vamps)
Ratchet was on it's first test tonight. I was pretty pleased, but not enormously pleased. I like 2. Mindbreak trap is gone, and I'm going to cut something else- without Spell Pierce, I felt naked.
I faced a mono-blue mill deck and lost both games, simply because he was running the 16 playable mill cards and another 12 counters. it was annoying. So spell pierce is back in as a 4-of for random rogue decks like that, moreso than ramp.
There's also a land-D deck. Papa wants his pierce...
Something that's extremely relevant to this conversation is, ramp is the least played archetype at my FNM. There's one valakut deck, maybe, and it's once every 3 weeks that it shows up. I can almost ignore it (Almost)
Sorry but Diminish is awful and one copy does hardly anything but take a valuable slot in your deck. If you want to do something with your 5 mana drop venser or a 3 CMC guy with Mana leak backup.
It worked like a condemn, only more fun. I dug it heartily- as I said, it killed a Wurmcoil, and I think it killed a couple other creatures besides (I didn't see much of it), i'm not cutting it until I have trouble. With emeria angel, it's literally just a condemn I can bluff with (By leaving open only blue.)
I agree with your last statement here. Meaning that Deprive is a card that would be better in your sideboard. It might be synergetic with Angel but is antisynergetic with the idea of a control deck with expensive finishers.
The idea behind deprive was to have a counter available for when they can tap out for mana leak, and at the same time, have a bird token generator. it was never to cast it turn 3 and screw myself.
That being said, it could have worked better. I'm going with 4 leak 1 deprive, rather than the aformeentioned 3/2 split.
No. It is not. I'd argue that Halimar Depths and Preordain can be compared (I'd still pick Depths as it doesn't take spell slots form my deck,) but SGO is out of the competition. The fact that it blocks and survives (even kills!) most of Aggro's creatures and that it can be absurdly abused by Venser makes the Oracle a must. If you want to do it on turn 1, just play Halimar Depths, especially if you know that you can follow with an Augury Owl to get rid of undesirable cards.
Depths is ok, i HAVE to see useless cards eventually and it comes in tapped. My deck has barely any tapped lands.
Don't forget, you're talking to the Grandfather of the Venser deck. I have over 100 games tested with SGO> I understand it completely. THis decklist was designed with the games where tapping 3 mana for a SGO was NOT a reality, and needing to dig for a Day of Judgement was a win-or-lose. Without the Mind Sculptor, I need to dig, and I can't crowd out a turn doing it, or I'd just run Foresee. This way, I can use turn 3 to leak, run out a ratchet or a spreading seas, drop tapped lands, or any number of removal spells, plus Jace Beleren which is extremely relevant.
Owl is 2, so he doesn't crowd, and after 4 it's Turn 4 Angel-Turn 5 PW-Turn 6 Titan. That smooth mana curve was the biggest argument for the owl, and it's been consistent. The owl even sets up your draws to support a 4-5-6 setup. You mentioned playing a 3CMC + mana leak on turn 5, and I found that to be a very low-power play. I wanted to have high-power cards coming in that needed to be answered every turn, and thats been the case, I am happy to say.
Except that [elspeth] competes in Mana cost with Venser and besides the Loyalty replenishing they have hardly any interaction. If you need non creature destruction, run more Ratchet Bombs, which will spare most of your stuff and can be abused with Sun Titan
.
The synergy elspeth has with Angel and Venser is great, and her final is MUCH more relevant than ratchet bomb.
I'm big enough to admit this- Venser is not THAT strong of a planeswalker. he is very good, and I love him, but I don't want 3 and I'm not concerned if I have to crowd his CC with another 5-drop because both are relevant. It's working, so I'm fine with it.
For being your bro, you have too few copies of him. On the other hand, your deck hardly needs him. I'd indeed raise the copies of Gideon, keep Elspeth and go for a Caw-Go kind of strategy, dropping the Venser-deck pretensions from the deck that only makes it unfocused and random.
You can't say I have too few copies and should also cut it, obviously. here's my argument for Venser:
Two games tonight, I won with unblockable alpha strikes with Gideon and Manlands. One game, I ultimated him and exiled a Grave Titan. Four or Five games, I scryed 9-12 cards using the Augury Owl, setting up turn after turn. One game, he ate an 18 damage swing because my opponent thought I was going to chump his two wurmcoils and his vengevines, and I just didn't. And finally, one game, I bounced lands so many times I had 6 bird tokens and they couldn't get him to 0 counters.
I love him. he works great. He works with 16+ cards in the deck, plus all the land. He stays!
For anyone who cares, I have one Japanese one and one SIGNED venser <3 Deschamps.
You hurt your mana balance to support a card that shouldn't be there to begin with. Angel belongs in a deck with creature enhancers such as Ajani and Honor of the Pure, not here. I'm sorry being so harsh about your choices but I want you to have a good deck. I'm not saying that your deck is abd and has no choice of winning whatsoever, but if you seriously want to win more than an odd game here and there, you have to be tighter.
You do need to test Emeria. I don't like saying "DID YOU PLAYTEST?!" in response to a logical argument (and yours is logical) because it's a cop-out, but the angel is a fantastic addition to U/W, especially with Elspeth and Sun Titan for fetch land recurrence.
I thought about it, my pro-buddies gave it the thumbs up, we tested with 1, then 2, and I settled on 3 and have been nothing but satisfied for the entire time. You don't need to go for Honor the Pure, though, it was considered. They chump, they manage Planeswalkers, but they don't often win the game. Sometimes they do
This isn't news, either. Control has been running Emeria Angel since it was released. The best U/W Player in our meta had 2 all the way until Scars came out, where he switched to U/B. I would call Emeria Angel the best card in the deck, but I think it's second best behind Gideon Jura. I'm adding a second Gideon.
Allright, I'll take your word for most of your reasoning except these two things:
Caw-go has a really good toolbox with the Hawks because A) few are willing to use removal on them and B) they have an easy time keeping planeswalkers at bay with their damage. My bird tokens have a similar effect, and it works enormously well. Against aggro, having chumpers to match their creature density without filling my deck with creatures is a house.
I love the angel, I suggest testing it, it's great! Bolting hasn't even happened more than once in 4 FNM's.
Thing about Hawks is that they are cheap and instant card advantage. They feel like such a pain to remove because 1. they are as cheap a the removal used on them and 2. More of them will still come and at the pace you desire, not to fall for Pyroclasm/Bomb even if you remove the first. Angel seems great because produces these same flying 1/1s for no cost!...except that the initial investment is important and once removed, the stream of birds will stop as well. I'm very surprised you haven't had it bolted more times. The only aggro deck that doesn't run bolt is elves and those guys are usually attacking for trampling lethal by the turn you get your first bird out of her. Maybe is a freaky difference in meta, but I wouldn't expect to untap with her; obviously it happens, but is so rare that you do better not factoring it in your calculations. That's why I only play creatures that affect the battlefield or generate card advantage immediately as they enter.
Don't forget, you're talking to the Grandfather of the Venser deck. I have over 100 games tested with SGO> I understand it completely. THis decklist was designed with the games where tapping 3 mana for a SGO was NOT a reality, and needing to dig for a Day of Judgement was a win-or-lose. Without the Mind Sculptor, I need to dig, and I can't crowd out a turn doing it, or I'd just run Foresee. This way, I can use turn 3 to leak, run out a ratchet or a spreading seas, drop tapped lands, or any number of removal spells, plus Jace Beleren which is extremely relevant.
Hell, if you are the grand-father I'm like the old patriarch When you created this thread my thread already had 5 pages in it and by then I was only coming with the skeleton of what would become my wildly successful deck, which I've played with since almost 150 times! (My current record is 106-30.) Nevermind, you miss the utility of SGO as an (exploitable) creature. I'm not surprised you have aggro problems when you have so little (and so late) ways to stymie their aggression. SGO is an excellent buffer that usually forces them to overcommit in order to pass enough damage through, a perfect play to follow with a DoJ. Moreover, more than once I've forced jace to fateseal instead brainstorm because Oracle keeps nipping his toes, improving my chances of avoiding counterspells.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
what about something like this ? i dunno if these have been looked at but i have been watching the mono white control thread and alot of those ideas looked like they would be better if they had venser added this is what i been thinking. any suggestions appreciated.
That list should run fine. I would go 3 Journeys and 2 Condemns just because you can move it around with the stag and Venser. I might switch augury owl for Sea Gate Oracle, since your list has little interference from mana curve issues.
That list should run fine. I would go 3 Journeys and 2 Condemns just because you can move it around with the stag and Venser. I might switch augury owl for Sea Gate Oracle, since your list has little interference from mana curve issues.
thanks willl switch that up like you suggested and give it a whirl... what about sideboard im terrible comming up with em. I know we have alot of UB control and there is always a few elfs , br vamps , RUG, eldrazi green and boros here and there. I think the agrro scared me into playing walls altho i kno they just sit there against control decks.
They generate card advantage, which is crucial in the control mirror, and honestly, without them in an aggro-heavy meta you might be in trouble.
My U/W list (First page) uses Gideon, Elspeth, and Emeria Angel to manage both control and aggro; if you have the resources, you could look into it.
Other options would be to run 4 Jace Belerens and 2 Sun Titans, that way, you can keep BUG, RUG, and UB off of Jace. In the sideboard, Leonin Arbiter and Leyline of Sanctity are great tools against ramp, black control, and Valakut. Spreading Seas is great against control and against Valakut.
Against control you'll do great with Luminarch Ascension in the sideboard and yeah 4 Belerens (as many of those as you can find room for in main, preferably, but 4 total.)
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
Heres my list. It hasnt been upadated to MBS. it works well, done alot of playtesting and top 8'd a few fnm's and local tourneys. I just wanted to get some suggestions from people outside the area im playing. Any ideas?
-1 Venser, the Sojourner, +1 Squadron Hawk.
-1 Jace Beleren, +1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, if possible.
-3 Glimmerpoint Stag, +1 Journey to Nowhere, +2 Condemn
-2 Cancel, +2 Spell Pierce
Those are my suggestions. If you cheapen the cost of your removal and counters, you can respond more proactively to rush aggro and opposing control decks. Additionally, you lower your curve so 24 lands is appropriate.
Squadron hawk has great synergy with The Mind Sculptor. If you have a fourth, run it with the 4 Hawks to ancestral recall yourself often. Also, Glimmerpoint Stag was extensively tested by several users, and straight-up Removal spells were much more successful. I've increased your removal with another Journey and a pair of Condemns.
I know what ur sayin with stag, but every time ive used him, ive always had a use for him.
but ill try it...
also, what about throwing in 1 or 2 spines and having treasure mage tutor for them?
I tested it, it's lackluster. I think the Spine might have limited Legacy play, but probably not even. It's like Lux Cannon: A powerful keyword with a prohibitive cost.
I used to love stag until I switched to cheaper spells. There's nothing more staisfying than hard-locking an opponent's planeswalker or permanently removing a Vengevine, but Journey and more intuitive creature choices (In my case, Emeria Angel) garnered much more consistent results. I had a pay-once-and-it's-done success story.
iight, ill give it a try, but what do u think about running dispel? its a great card. If yout hink about it, the main things that give u/w trouble is non creature spells. We can del with creatures no problem. And i had Mneumonic wall in for a while. You think i can fit it back in?
This si gonan suck cuz now i have to find foil spell pierces and journeys lol
Spell Pierce is much better than dispel because it hits an opponent's Planeswalkers.
Mnemonic Wall is only playable with the Silence Lock combo, and that's a different deck. Some people swear it's a wicked decklist but I've found it to be too interruptable.
If Mnemonic Wall cost like, 2 or 3 mana, it'd be playable, but as of now it isn't. Wall of Omens isn't too bad though, especially as the meta speeds up slightly with Battlecry.
oh true. for some reason i thought dispel siad counter target noncreature spell...but i guess i was mistaken lol..damn i feel like a noob.
How about a one of blue sun's zenith it seems really good
I like it. I wouldn't run two. The White Sun's Zenith is getting pegged by a lot of the pro's (Conley Woods and Luis Scott-Vargas both think so) as a good addition to a U/W list in place of titans.
I think Titans have a higher value in a list with Venser because they can be bounced, but the competitiveness of the White Sun's Zenith should be looked into. I could easily see the 2-3 titans in a Control list replaced by 3 of this card, so you can spill out kitty cats with enough frequency to beat aggro and the control mirror.
I would try both out and see how you like it. If you drop all 4 of your titans for some number of Zeniths, I would also cut one Venser and add one or more Elspeth Tirel.
I've always loved elspeth. When she came out i ran her as a 2 of in the first grand prix here. I found out that 2 was too many. but the most common thing i was doin was makin babies, exile her with venser and boom effecive 0:make blockers or +2 make blockers and potentionally exile stuff later on
I ran two in my U/W build, never thought it was too many. I found she had great synergy with tokens. If you ran 3 White Sun's Zenith and two Elspeth, you'd probably do great with it.
The "4 White Sun's Zenith and 4 Elspeth Tirel" deck is probably real.
I might end up cutting both baneslayer and sun titan and moving BSA to sideboard. I added one spine to play test it. it seems really good when u are able to blink it multiple times.
Lots of things seem really good on paper, but relying on a Venser blink to make a card "work" was the death sentence of a lot of decklists. Cut the spine and add your 4th Squadron hawk, or cut your whole flock
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Cut one DoJ and one Dispense Justice, with the walls you won't need that much removal.
Cut 2 Gideon Jura and add two Jace Beleren, it helps you find combo pieces, and stops opposing Jace's.
Cut stoic rebuttal, and with the two cut kill spells, add 4 Preordain. You'll need it to dig for combo pieces.
Good luck!
The Sphinx of Jwar Isle seems infinitely worse than Sun Titan, Frost Titan, or Volition Reins.
I would also try to add in one more baby Jace and maybe some Spreading Seas. Four white Leylines should belong in your board.
Dispense Justice seems really out of place...especially as a one-of. I would cut it and one or two Days.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
Yeah, pretty much agree. Sphinx isn't so bad, since with no good creature targets for the opponent's removal, a singleton titan will probably just get journeyed. I would edit the number of removal spells and add preordain.
Edit: Oh, hey, Modern is a format.
I like the Spine in Big Red with Throne of Geth, though.
As for Phyrexian Revoker, it's ok. It still dies to all removal except Go For the Throat and Marsh Casualties, which is unfortunate. I might test it, but i'm not freaking out over it. I feel like I need 2 more revokers to name all the cards that would kill the one naming Jace the Mind Sculptor, haha.
Basically, the only card I like for U/W after rotation is Leonin Relic-Guard, sideboard. There are other cards I want to "Break" though, or at least test:
Knowledge pool is neat if you play a high-curve U/W or Bant list. Mirrorworks is really interesting, but I'm not sure if it's good enough. Vensering a Wurmcoil Engine after combat and getting a copy is pretty sick.
Turn 5 Venser
Turn 6 Wurmcoil
Turn 7 Mirrorworks, extra Wurmcoil.
It might be good enough- will test.
I like what you said about Sphere of the Suns...sort of.
The only color that needed to be any faster was Bant, and I like Birds of Paradise a lot better than Sphere of the Suns. It mana fixes and hits metalcraft, so it has a place in a metalcraft build, but not by the merit of it's own text in the Venser control list. It's not dynamic enough.
After testing all the color variations thoroughly, I didn't abandon 3 color because it was hard to color-fix; the idea hit the backburner because the U/W list was the most successful, the most powerful. I'm sticking with that.
I approve of this deck. I've been thinking for a while about metalcraft Venser and this seems like a good first approach. Playtesting and refining will tell if it's viable.
Agreed about the titans. I play 2 Sun myself, but I have more and better targets for him, so it's ok.
Is this assessment tested at all? Aggro bolts it and control, well, I'm not going to list all the cards that control has to deal with this. The only archetype I can see having a bit of trouble with this is non-valakut ramp.
That's why the owl should replace Wall, not Oracle. In fact, that's a great idea. I'm going to try it myself. But seriously, don't lose the oracle, this deck really needs card advantage to beat control.
I understand that your meta is heavy in removal. But rather than having so many of these spells inundating your main that are increasingly useless against ramp and control, why don't you just have 4 Ratchet bombs in the side? Bomb deals much better with the kind of aggro that sees play in this meta (Quest, Elves, Boros and Vamps)
Sorry but Diminish is awful and one copy does hardly anything but take a valuable slot in your deck. If you want to do something with your 5 mana drop venser or a 3 CMC guy with Mana leak backup.
I agree with your last statement here. Meaning that Deprive is a card that would be better in your sideboard. It might be synergetic with Angel but is antisynergetic with the idea of a control deck with expensive finishers.
No. It is not. I'd argue that Halimar Depths and Preordain can be compared (I'd still pick Depths as it doesn't take spell slots form my deck,) but SGO is out of the competition. The fact that it blocks and survives (even kills!) most of Aggro's creatures and that it can be absurdly abused by Venser makes the Oracle a must. If you want to do it on turn 1, just play Halimar Depths, especially if you know that you can follow with an Augury Owl to get rid of undesirable cards.
Except that she competes in Mana cost with Venser and besides the Loyalty replenishing they have hardly any interaction. If you need non creature destruction, run more Ratchet Bombs, which will spare most of your stuff and can be abused with Sun Titan
.
For being your bro, you have too few copies of him. On the other hand, your deck hardly needs him. I'd indeed raise the copies of Gideon, keep Elspeth and go for a Caw-Go kind of strategy, dropping the Venser-deck pretensions from the deck that only makes it unfocused and random.
You hurt your mana balance to support a card that shouldn't be there to begin with. Angel belongs in a deck with creature enhancers such as Ajani and Honor of the Pure, not here. I'm sorry being so harsh about your choices but I want you to have a good deck. I'm not saying that your deck is abd and has no choice of winning whatsoever, but if you seriously want to win more than an odd game here and there, you have to be tighter.
I dunno... I have faced that deck a few times and I've always found it too easy to disrupt and too reliant in good draws. I've gone 2-0 against it several times, except once I went 2-1, and yeah that game I lost was a brutal, unbreakable lock, but it happened because I couldn't find any of the several answers I had for it. I wish I had more to say about it, but i seriously don't see how to improve it while keeping the main idea.
The titans are good stuff. Both agreed.
Unlike some of my educated guesses, this is very much tested. Tested over 60 or 70 games.
Emeria Angel works great in the control matchup. I have titans, and I have planeswalkers, must-answer threats that Control loses if they don't have a response. Because of that, Emeria is fantastic in that matchup.
Caw-go has a really good toolbox with the Hawks because A) few are willing to use removal on them and B) they have an easy time keeping planeswalkers at bay with their damage. My bird tokens have a similar effect to Squadron hawk, and it works enormously well. Against aggro, having chumpers to match their creature density without filling my deck with creatures is a house.
I love the angel, I suggest testing it, it's great! Bolting hasn't even happened more than once in 4 FNM's. Her dying isn't a reality- serously, it just doesn't happen. At least, not in my meta...
I have four Jace Belerens, and they're enough. I swim in CA. I like the owl because it digs for specifics. It's like preordains 5 and 6. Sometimes it's power is relevant, like with the miser Diminish (I killed a Wurmcoil Engine with it tonight, haha)
Ratchet was on it's first test tonight. I was pretty pleased, but not enormously pleased. I like 2. Mindbreak trap is gone, and I'm going to cut something else- without Spell Pierce, I felt naked.
I faced a mono-blue mill deck and lost both games, simply because he was running the 16 playable mill cards and another 12 counters. it was annoying. So spell pierce is back in as a 4-of for random rogue decks like that, moreso than ramp.
There's also a land-D deck. Papa wants his pierce...
Something that's extremely relevant to this conversation is, ramp is the least played archetype at my FNM. There's one valakut deck, maybe, and it's once every 3 weeks that it shows up. I can almost ignore it (Almost)
It worked like a condemn, only more fun. I dug it heartily- as I said, it killed a Wurmcoil, and I think it killed a couple other creatures besides (I didn't see much of it), i'm not cutting it until I have trouble. With emeria angel, it's literally just a condemn I can bluff with (By leaving open only blue.)
The idea behind deprive was to have a counter available for when they can tap out for mana leak, and at the same time, have a bird token generator. it was never to cast it turn 3 and screw myself.
That being said, it could have worked better. I'm going with 4 leak 1 deprive, rather than the aformeentioned 3/2 split.
Depths is ok, i HAVE to see useless cards eventually and it comes in tapped. My deck has barely any tapped lands.
Don't forget, you're talking to the Grandfather of the Venser deck. I have over 100 games tested with SGO> I understand it completely. THis decklist was designed with the games where tapping 3 mana for a SGO was NOT a reality, and needing to dig for a Day of Judgement was a win-or-lose. Without the Mind Sculptor, I need to dig, and I can't crowd out a turn doing it, or I'd just run Foresee. This way, I can use turn 3 to leak, run out a ratchet or a spreading seas, drop tapped lands, or any number of removal spells, plus Jace Beleren which is extremely relevant.
Owl is 2, so he doesn't crowd, and after 4 it's Turn 4 Angel-Turn 5 PW-Turn 6 Titan. That smooth mana curve was the biggest argument for the owl, and it's been consistent. The owl even sets up your draws to support a 4-5-6 setup. You mentioned playing a 3CMC + mana leak on turn 5, and I found that to be a very low-power play. I wanted to have high-power cards coming in that needed to be answered every turn, and thats been the case, I am happy to say.
The synergy elspeth has with Angel and Venser is great, and her final is MUCH more relevant than ratchet bomb.
I'm big enough to admit this- Venser is not THAT strong of a planeswalker. he is very good, and I love him, but I don't want 3 and I'm not concerned if I have to crowd his CC with another 5-drop because both are relevant. It's working, so I'm fine with it.
You can't say I have too few copies and should also cut it, obviously. here's my argument for Venser:
Two games tonight, I won with unblockable alpha strikes with Gideon and Manlands. One game, I ultimated him and exiled a Grave Titan. Four or Five games, I scryed 9-12 cards using the Augury Owl, setting up turn after turn. One game, he ate an 18 damage swing because my opponent thought I was going to chump his two wurmcoils and his vengevines, and I just didn't. And finally, one game, I bounced lands so many times I had 6 bird tokens and they couldn't get him to 0 counters.
I love him. he works great. He works with 16+ cards in the deck, plus all the land. He stays!
For anyone who cares, I have one Japanese one and one SIGNED venser <3 Deschamps.
You do need to test Emeria. I don't like saying "DID YOU PLAYTEST?!" in response to a logical argument (and yours is logical) because it's a cop-out, but the angel is a fantastic addition to U/W, especially with Elspeth and Sun Titan for fetch land recurrence.
I thought about it, my pro-buddies gave it the thumbs up, we tested with 1, then 2, and I settled on 3 and have been nothing but satisfied for the entire time. You don't need to go for Honor the Pure, though, it was considered. They chump, they manage Planeswalkers, but they don't often win the game. Sometimes they do
This isn't news, either. Control has been running Emeria Angel since it was released. The best U/W Player in our meta had 2 all the way until Scars came out, where he switched to U/B. I would call Emeria Angel the best card in the deck, but I think it's second best behind Gideon Jura. I'm adding a second Gideon.
Thanks very much for your input, maokun!
Thing about Hawks is that they are cheap and instant card advantage. They feel like such a pain to remove because 1. they are as cheap a the removal used on them and 2. More of them will still come and at the pace you desire, not to fall for Pyroclasm/Bomb even if you remove the first. Angel seems great because produces these same flying 1/1s for no cost!...except that the initial investment is important and once removed, the stream of birds will stop as well. I'm very surprised you haven't had it bolted more times. The only aggro deck that doesn't run bolt is elves and those guys are usually attacking for trampling lethal by the turn you get your first bird out of her. Maybe is a freaky difference in meta, but I wouldn't expect to untap with her; obviously it happens, but is so rare that you do better not factoring it in your calculations. That's why I only play creatures that affect the battlefield or generate card advantage immediately as they enter.
Hell, if you are the grand-father I'm like the old patriarch When you created this thread my thread already had 5 pages in it and by then I was only coming with the skeleton of what would become my wildly successful deck, which I've played with since almost 150 times! (My current record is 106-30.) Nevermind, you miss the utility of SGO as an (exploitable) creature. I'm not surprised you have aggro problems when you have so little (and so late) ways to stymie their aggression. SGO is an excellent buffer that usually forces them to overcommit in order to pass enough damage through, a perfect play to follow with a DoJ. Moreover, more than once I've forced jace to fateseal instead brainstorm because Oracle keeps nipping his toes, improving my chances of avoiding counterspells.
1 sun titan
3 gilmmerpoint stag
4 wall of omens
2 augury owl
2 lone missionary
3 condemn
3 day of judgement
4 mana leak
4 preordain
3 tumble magnet
3 jace beleran
3 celestial colonnade
4 glacial fortress
3 seachrome coast
8 island
7 plains
thanks willl switch that up like you suggested and give it a whirl... what about sideboard im terrible comming up with em. I know we have alot of UB control and there is always a few elfs , br vamps , RUG, eldrazi green and boros here and there. I think the agrro scared me into playing walls altho i kno they just sit there against control decks.
My U/W list (First page) uses Gideon, Elspeth, and Emeria Angel to manage both control and aggro; if you have the resources, you could look into it.
Other options would be to run 4 Jace Belerens and 2 Sun Titans, that way, you can keep BUG, RUG, and UB off of Jace. In the sideboard, Leonin Arbiter and Leyline of Sanctity are great tools against ramp, black control, and Valakut. Spreading Seas is great against control and against Valakut.
2x seagate oracle
3x squadron hawks
3x glimmerpoint sag
2x baneslayer
2x frost titan
2x sun titan
Artifacts
2x everflowing chalice
1x ratchet bomb
INSTANTS/SORCERIES
2x cancel
4x mana leak
2x Day of Judgement
ENCHANTMENTS
1x journey to nowhere
PLANESWAKERS
2x jace beleren
3x Jace, The minds Sculptor
2x gideon jura
3x Venser, the Sojourner
LANDS
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Glacial Fortress
3x Tectonic Edge
1x Sejiri refuge
1x Halimar Depths
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
4x Plains
5x Islands
Heres my list. It hasnt been upadated to MBS. it works well, done alot of playtesting and top 8'd a few fnm's and local tourneys. I just wanted to get some suggestions from people outside the area im playing. Any ideas?
My Haves/wants list:D:D
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-1 Jace Beleren, +1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, if possible.
-3 Glimmerpoint Stag, +1 Journey to Nowhere, +2 Condemn
-2 Cancel, +2 Spell Pierce
Those are my suggestions. If you cheapen the cost of your removal and counters, you can respond more proactively to rush aggro and opposing control decks. Additionally, you lower your curve so 24 lands is appropriate.
Squadron hawk has great synergy with The Mind Sculptor. If you have a fourth, run it with the 4 Hawks to ancestral recall yourself often. Also, Glimmerpoint Stag was extensively tested by several users, and straight-up Removal spells were much more successful. I've increased your removal with another Journey and a pair of Condemns.
Good luck!
but ill try it...
also, what about throwing in 1 or 2 spines and having treasure mage tutor for them?
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I used to love stag until I switched to cheaper spells. There's nothing more staisfying than hard-locking an opponent's planeswalker or permanently removing a Vengevine, but Journey and more intuitive creature choices (In my case, Emeria Angel) garnered much more consistent results. I had a pay-once-and-it's-done success story.
This si gonan suck cuz now i have to find foil spell pierces and journeys lol
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Mnemonic Wall is only playable with the Silence Lock combo, and that's a different deck. Some people swear it's a wicked decklist but I've found it to be too interruptable.
If Mnemonic Wall cost like, 2 or 3 mana, it'd be playable, but as of now it isn't. Wall of Omens isn't too bad though, especially as the meta speeds up slightly with Battlecry.
How about a one of blue sun's zenith it seems really good
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I think Titans have a higher value in a list with Venser because they can be bounced, but the competitiveness of the White Sun's Zenith should be looked into. I could easily see the 2-3 titans in a Control list replaced by 3 of this card, so you can spill out kitty cats with enough frequency to beat aggro and the control mirror.
I would try both out and see how you like it. If you drop all 4 of your titans for some number of Zeniths, I would also cut one Venser and add one or more Elspeth Tirel.
My Haves/wants list:D:D
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The "4 White Sun's Zenith and 4 Elspeth Tirel" deck is probably real.
CREATURES
2x seagate oracle
3x squadron hawks
1x baneslayer
2x frost titan
1x sun titan
Artifacts
2x everflowing chalice
1x ratchet bomb
1x Spine of Ish sah
INSTANTS/SORCERIES
2x spell pierce
4x mana leak
2x Day of Judgement
2x condemn
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
ENCHANTMENTS
2x journey to nowhere
PLANESWAKERS
1x jace beleren
4x Jace, The minds Sculptor
2x gideon jura
3x Venser, the Sojourner
LANDS
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Glacial Fortress
3x Tectonic Edge
1x Sejiri refuge
1x Halimar Depths
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
4x Plains
5x Islands
I might end up cutting both baneslayer and sun titan and moving BSA to sideboard. I added one spine to play test it. it seems really good when u are able to blink it multiple times.
My Haves/wants list:D:D
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=2221163017003&comments MY MOST EPIC PLAY OF ALL TIME...you gotta watch it