I feel like torpor orb deserves main board slots. Not just against caw-blade, but it's good against r/b vamps (manic vandal and gatekeeper) as well as birthing pod decks because those decks use a lot of CITP creatures.
This list is somewhat based on Kibler's list from GP Singapore.
I really like Argent Sphinx and Vedalken Certarch, but I didn't like all of the aggressive creatures that his deck was using. I cut out Etched Champion and Steel Overseer for more controlling cards like Tumble Magnet, and I added in extra Argent Sphinx because I believe they are excellent in this deck.
No sideboard yet, it's too late for me to come up with one.
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EDH: RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
The wellsprings and prisms seem like a waste to me. Your artifact is high enough to use something more helpful like a counter or preordain. What was your reasoning for those?
You're right that Tumble Magnet or Etched Champion is the question. If you're not playing Steel Overseers then EC becomes less valuable. To call Tumble Magnet more controlling than EC is a mistake though. There are few cards in the metagame as controlling as EC in a list that routinely has metalcraft.
Tumble Magnet comes out and stalls for a few turns and it's very good at that. However if Spellskite lands opposite it or is sitting there already then it is effectively blanked.
Etched Champion comes out and shuts down most ground-based traffic and it is a win-con itself. There is nothing grosser in this meta right now than an Etched Champion carrying Batterskull.
I was skeptical of EC until I actually started playing it. Then I realized that it is a golden control card and at 3cc it is priced exactly right for what it does.
You're right that Tumble Magnet or Etched Champion is the question. If you're not playing Steel Overseers then EC becomes less valuable. To call Tumble Magnet more controlling than EC is a mistake though. There are few cards in the metagame as controlling as EC in a list that routinely has metalcraft.
Tumble Magnet comes out and stalls for a few turns and it's very good at that. However if Spellskite lands opposite it or is sitting there already then it is effectively blanked.
Etched Champion comes out and shuts down most ground-based traffic and it is a win-con itself. There is nothing grosser in this meta right now than an Etched Champion carrying Batterskull.
I was skeptical of EC until I actually started playing it. Then I realized that it is a golden control card and at 3cc it is priced exactly right for what it does.
Agreed - after playing it for awhile, I feel that it's one of the cards that, as a Tezzeret deckbuilder, whether you're aggro or control, it should be one of the deck staples considered in the same breath as Tumble Magnet and Everflowing Chalice - it really is that good.
I think for the first time I have to give it up for Kibler. His latest Tezz build (except for the lone leaden myr) is pretty cool.
While this thread has bounced numerous idea's for abusing Tezz, he has gone ahead and made a gem.
here is a link to his deck if you haven't seen it yet......
As much as I liked playing around with the ichor wellsprings when they were released....never could I make them viable. He has. They "sorta" are the replacement for preordain while enabling metalcraft faster as NOONE will counter an ichor wellspring....lol. If I was to tweak his version, I would probably go something like this.......
-1 leaden myr
-1 mox opal
+1 batterskull
+1 sword of war and peace
other than that, the deck is pretty frickin "tight", allthough I would love to put a piston sledge or throne of geth to get better use out of the ichor and to also drop Tezz, proliferate and win
My friends always ask me "what is your goal for winning"..... I always answer that it depends on the game state. Tezz wins in multiple ways and you may use his ultimate to win one game and in the next "beat face". Tezz is just so versitile. In Kibler's version, he has narrowed/focused how Tezz is used to win. He will almost purely be -1ning himself to victory.
Discuss the deck and good luck in your FNM's tonight all.
Yeah, but Conley Woods is the Dredge of Magic players. Everything that is good and reasonable in the world says his style of play and type of deckbuilding shouldn't work, but it does. It. Just. Works.
He's not just out of the box, he defies any sort of geometric shape. He's that special kind of certifiably-insane evil genius.
The wellsprings and prisms seem like a waste to me. Your artifact is high enough to use something more helpful like a counter or preordain. What was your reasoning for those?
I was thinking that they would essentially be preordains that helped out with metalcraft, which is imperative for this deck to function. You may be right, though, Preordain could just be better. I'm not sure, though.
And as for those who are talking about how good Etched Champion is...
I guess I still don't get it. It's just a 2/2. Sure, with Steel Overseer he becomes pretty impressive, but I guess I don't think it's worth the 8 slots for that kind of interaction. I suppose I need to test it. :/
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EDH: RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
Kibler has 22 lands and 4 Ichor Wellspring instead of Preordain. That can't be the best choice. He's got 16 blue lands also so it's not a mana consideration.
Testing in the new meta I'm really surprised how much faster it is except when I'm facing CawBlade, which has become one of the slower lists. I think Kibler has the right idea about forgetting the ultimate and just using the +1 and -1 alternating if possible. I rarely get the ultimate off online any more. Usually I win off of multiple 5/5's beating face or lose to very fast aggro or aggro-control with no opportunity to use the +1 to get up to 4 loyalty.
@cescobar
I think the key to Etched Champion and Steel Overseer is that they can both be good on their own. When I drop a Steel Overseer on an empty board and it is not removed quickly I win a large percentage of the games. Etched Champion is more reliant on other cards because he's just a bear without metalcraft and a bear with protection without Steel Overseer or equipment.
I'm using both in a midrange shell at this point and so far it is good against control and good against most aggro but it is having some issues with aggro-control. I think I'm not at critical mass to drop a threat every turn against aggro-control and that's the problem. Kibler's list has a huge number of threats in it and Steel Overseer makes just about everything in the list better.
This list is somewhat based on Kibler's list from GP Singapore.
I really like Argent Sphinx and Vedalken Certarch, but I didn't like all of the aggressive creatures that his deck was using. I cut out Etched Champion and Steel Overseer for more controlling cards like Tumble Magnet, and I added in extra Argent Sphinx because I believe they are excellent in this deck.
No sideboard yet, it's too late for me to come up with one.
argent sphinx is good, but 4 is extreme. try cutting 2 of these, its much better i assure you.
i think its also safe to say you could cut the prophetic prisms and ichor wellsprings for etched champion for more success.
those changes should work much better. also, the reason etched champion is incredible is because the whole point of your deck is to get metalcraft early, and once that is done, he becomes a protection from all colors creature that you can equip with any equipment to start bashing face for MASSIVE gain, and they cant really do anything about it.
So I updated my deck -very- slightly prior to FNM - finding myself really missing the Liliana - feeling it was worth to go back up to 61 cards for her, and I was pretty happy that I did - going 4-1 (and my one loss was to an opponent topdecking 2 crushes to destroy a freshly cast Batterskull 2 turns in a row)
Round 1: U/W Control - It's not an overly strong deck - but watching my Etched Champion single handedly hold off a Gideon was quite fun. I won 2-0 no sweat, - my opponent even day'd his own Sun Titan to kill my Etched Champion - which was shortly replaced on the next turn. Every single round, I watched this card frustrate my opponents and win me games.
Round 2: Big Red - This was actually a fairly challenging matchup. I won game 1, lost game 2 (getting land screwed after mulling to 4) and game 3 I managed to win with my opponent having an level 8 Kargan Dragonlord out thanks to the very, very good combination of Liliana tutoring Tezzeret, next turn Liliana tutoring a tumble magnet, playing Tezzeret, pulling the tumble magnet out, and pulling a Tezz ultimate next turn for 14 and an etched champion with a Sword of Feast and Famine adding in 4 more (plus the two he'd taken for Tezz's Gambit). The matchup is particularly challenging due to it running four tumble magnets - damn near the only card that can do anything about Etched Champion. I definitely had him stand in the face of koth and negate his +1 few times, however.
Round 3: U/B Control - I just absolutely shredded this deck. There was absolutely nothing it could do to etched champion if I got it out. The deck has so few threats, and I even held a Grave Titan at bay with three etched champions. He's just a nightmare to control decks that don't run any colorless sources of removal - moreso to U/B control as neither blue nor black have any effective artifact removal whatsoever.
Round 4: White Weenie - This was another pretty close matchup. I won game one due to - you guessed it - Etched Champion. I put him on the field, and 99% of decks have absolutely *nothing* they can do about him. I put him out early, they lose one creature every turn their attack. Put the game off long enough to get either a Tezzeret or a Batterskull out, and it just seems to be very good. Game 2 I got hit with a very quick SF Mystic, Batterskull, SF Mystic, SoFaF, squadron hawk beast and lost pretty quickly. Game three I got a turn 2 torpor orb - and the only card he had in his deck that could remove it was the 2-of Revoke Existences he ran. He'd went up to 4-of Leonin Relic-Warders, but they do nothing with Torpor Orb on the field - neither do squad hawk or SF mystic. This game was -way- closer than it had to be because I drew no threats whatsoever, and I got stuck at 1 black source with a Consume the Meek in my hand for six turns - he had 2 relic warders, a single squad hawk, 2 SF mystics - all played with Torpor Orb out, me with 3 tumble magnets, 2 chalices and a clasp out - I dragged it out until I got the mana for a consume the meek - played it, and my opponent scooped. He would've likely lost anyways as I had him up to 7 poison, but that was the nail in the coffin. The guy, 3-0 at the time, said "There's just something that doesn't seem fair about an Etched Champion equipped with Batterskull with a spellskite on the battlefield.
Round 5: RDW - I won game 1 handily - once again, a turn 4 metalcrafted Etched Champion bought me enough time to get a Batterskull and that was all there was to it. Game 2 I lost on turn 7 as I played a Batterskull with 3 life left, my opponent topdecked a lightning bolt. Game 3 I lost when my opponent topdecked a crush on turn 7 and turn 8 - both after I had just played a Batterskull, with a Spellskite out. I know this is what red does, but that was literally the only card he could've played to prevent me from life-swinging the game back out of his reach.
In summation: Etched Champion is RIDICULOUS in Tezzeret control so long as you've got enough artifacts to reliably get him metalcraft - and they need to not be creatures. The more non-creature artifacts you have the better - the amount of exasperation of what to do about him was obvious to watch. I watched opponents blow Divine Offerings on charge-less tumble magnets in order to kill him - he was THAT much trouble. I honestly don't know if this could've gone any better than I saw it in my head. It certainly helped that I was playing against aggro, but it felt like aggro decks were the iffy weak spot of these decks anyways - this guy is just so strong against any aggro deck other than Tempered Steel (and even then he can still hold Porcelain Legionnare which may very well be the scariest individual creature in that deck that they'll be attacking with at bay) - but that's what the SB is for.
Finally broke through and took first tonight at FNM. I was running Forgemaster tonight for the last time until my Tez-Blade deck is completed. Beat two mono-white artifact decks. One quest version and another using lux cannon. Then beat U/B control to go undefeated. Also tested against a Caw-Blade build and won game one before losing game two do to a top-decked tec edge on my tar-pit. Only lost one game tonight. Forgemaster version is a lot better than I thought. I thought it would be too gimmicky but enough control in it and boom, Blightsteel and you've got game. Black Sun's Zenith and Revoker starred tonight for me.
Kibler's new deck on SCG premium, basically changing out hex parasites, leaden myrs out for 3 flight spell bombs. 23 lands, 2 mox and prisms instead of wellsprings. My I gave my friend the deck to play at gameday today, went 2-2 (16 lands cos I forgot to put them in LOL). I took it down with Cawblade, but I played him and kinda got raped when he had like 3 certachs, 2 spellskites I couldn't remove lol.
Cards on the bubble after early testing: Steel Overseers, which are too easy to remove and side out against everything but aggro, Wurmcoil Engine, which seems like win more because if I can cast it I've probably already won the game, and Accorder's Shield which so far has only been used to activate Mox Opals early.
Cards looking to get in to the main list: 4th Torpor Orb, which is doing very well against Caw so far and also handles things like Manic Vandal and Gatekeeper of Malakir, Shrine of Loyal Legions which has been golden every time I sided it in, mostly against aggro.
Card on the outside looking in: Beast Within. I made the list thinking about it and main deck Nature's Claim but when I actually put it together I could not find room for it. Maybe coming in for the Steel Overseers.
I ran Kibler's build today at game day and got 2nd place (out of about 15). One thing I didn't like about Etched Champion is that he can't be targeted by Tezz once you have metalcraft up. The Steel Overseer synergy is nice but it felt too slow .. I didn't win the important games by having a couple of +1/+1 counters on my artifact creatures.
I almost want to run 4x Semblance Anvil (maybe using the Ichor Wellsprings as a sacrifice or an extraneous Mox Opal) instead of the Etched Champions so that most of my artifacts are coming in for free (or 1 mana) and therefore I have free mana to pay for Mana Leaks and Spell Pierces. Being able to play spells without fear is huge vs control decks. Might also be interesting to see if instead of running 4 Overseer & 4 Champion, maybe 4 Anvil 2 Champion 2 Myr Superions (free 5/6 creatures w/ Anvil, woohoo!)?
I ran Kibler's build today at game day and got 2nd place (out of about 15). One thing I didn't like about Etched Champion is that he can't be targeted by Tezz once you have metalcraft up. The Steel Overseer synergy is nice but it felt too slow .. I didn't win the important games by having a couple of +1/+1 counters on my artifact creatures.
I almost want to run 4x Semblance Anvil (maybe using the Ichor Wellsprings as a sacrifice or an extraneous Mox Opal) instead of the Etched Champions so that most of my artifacts are coming in for free (or 1 mana) and therefore I have free mana to pay for Mana Leaks and Spell Pierces. Being able to play spells without fear is huge vs control decks. Might also be interesting to see if instead of running 4 Overseer & 4 Champion, maybe 4 Anvil 2 Champion 2 Myr Superions (free 5/6 creatures w/ Anvil, woohoo!)?
semblance anvil needs about a billion card drawing things to work properly. you also have to make your deck specifically for that card in order for it to perform well.
If you're playing Etched Champion you have to have a lot of non-creature artifacts in the build, like 10-11 minimum and you have to have a lot of artifacts overall. Getting metalcraft and keeping it in this meta is not easy, especially against lists that main deck 3-4 pieces of artifact hate and then have 3-4 more in the SB.
What I'm going to focus on until Caw is either killed or confirmed is creatures that pass the Jace test and artifacts that make the other tier 1/1.5 lists much weaker.
Passing the Jace test at the moment are Phyrexian Revoker, Etched Champion and Argent Sphinx. Myr Battlesphere passes the test but is just too slow in this meta since aggro took off again, same for Precursor Golem.
Artifacts that hurt tier 1/1.5 are:
Spellskite (shuts down a lot of damage from aggro, forces removal that would like to go elsewhere to land on it instead, shuts down Tumble Magnet, shuts down SplinterTwin.)
Torpor Orb (Stoneforge Mystic, Squadron Hawk, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Manic Vandal, Deceiver Exarch, Acidic Slime, Primeval Titan.) Landing Torpor Orb on the play against CawBlade is a huge advantage until they remove it. Landing it before Etched Champion comes down stops both Gatekeeper of Malakir and Manic Vandal from removing your defense and then attacking for the win. Landing it against SplinterTwin forces them to dig for Into the Roil before they can go off. Landing it against Valakut stops the 2-turn win combo dead in it's tracks and after sideboarding shuts down their Acidic Slime answer. Landing it against RDW stops Goblin Bushwhacker ambushes and Manic Vandal.
Spidersilk Net (on a Spellskite, MC Etched Champion or Argent Sphinx blocks CawBlade, Batterskull, Emeria Angel and Mirran Crusader all day, on a Phyrexian Revoker blocks unequipped hawks.) Turns on Mox Opals early.
Accorder's Shield (shuts down aggro on a MC Etched Champion who can attack and block, puts non-MC Etched Champion out of bolt range forcing a trade-off and a bolt to kill.) Turns on Mox Opals early.
So what can go in that list alongside all of the anti-meta stuff to power it up to the current Standard level?
Jace is an obvious answer, but Tezzeret and Argent Sphinx fill 6-7 slots at that spot in the curve. Jace Beleren is probably better because at 3cc he competes only with Etched Champion and he fills the role of pre-emptive control against big Jace and damage control afterwards.
After that I figure there are all of 6 slots open in the list and probably a couple of them should be artifacts. It's going to be interesting trying to figure out how to flesh it out. The criteria should be passes the Jace Test or pure power and artifacts are better than anything else. And the list is a bit short on draw/selection power.
Someone have to explain me how to play vs valakut,i've played 20 game yesterday and only won 3 because he keept horrible hands.
Torpor orb helps a bit but he can still attack whit the titan,(really work vs the avenger tough).Everytime i tried memoricide on one of the 2 titan,the other one came in crashing the party.
Each game i had enough tumble magnet and a torpor orb to keep titan/avenger at bay,he just killed me whit montains.
Nature claim>spellkites
Valakut>etched champion since its colorless dmg.
If you play a midrange game plan, trying to control and flip the game in your favor in the middle at some point, you almost auto-lose to Valakut. There's no improving the matchup if your game plan is to go 8 or 9 turns because Valakut will always win by turn 5 or 6.
Your best bet with midrange is IoK to slow them down a little and then counter Green Sun's Zenith/Primeval Titan/Avenger of Zendikar and hope they are not running Summoning Trap or that they hit an Overgrown Battlement if they are.
If you're playing CawBlade you can over-run them early but Tezzeret doesn't really have anything like that.
Playing a mid-late Tezzeret deck against Valakut, I almost always win due to a combination of Spellskite, Phyrexian Metamorph, Tectonic Edge and, in SB games, Memoricide.
ALWAYS save Metamorph for Primeval Titan. Running 4x Tumble Magnets usually means I have one before they have a Titan out. Metamorphing their Primeval Titan lets you search for your Tec Edges, and they usually cannot stop your Primeval Titan the same way that you can stop theirs (due to Magnet). If you can destroy 2 Valakuts, the game is usually over - three and it's -really- close to over.
Tezzeret ultimates are your best friend. If you have a Metamorph in your hand and a magnet or two on the field, Tezzeret ultimates even for 8-10 life can really save you the game - particularly if you know they're very close to combo-ing out. Even if it means killing Tezzeret.
Also, because of the way that the Valakut combo works on triggers from Mountains entering, one Spellskite immediately negates 2/3 of any Valakut combo at worst - assuming you have no blue sources at all in play. One of the advantages of the Valakut combo - in that all triggers go on the stack at exactly the same time, means that you can redirect ALL of the Valakut triggers from a Primeval Titan attack/entering to ONE spellskite.
If they have 3 Valakuts out, cast a Titan and search for two mountains - that would yield 18 damage to you - however, even if you have no blue mana open, you can pay 12 life to redirect all 6 triggers to your Spellskite while they're on the stack, effectively taking 1/3 of the damage off of any Valakut triggers - even more if you have blue sources open - since both mountains enter at the exact same time, there's no way they can save it short of removing your Spellskite before hand - another thing that can be really nice to prevent that is to equip your Spellskite with a Sword of BaM or FaF - which makes their only removal outlet for Spellskite being Valakut effects to begin with.
Really, the scariest card that Valakut runs for me is Avenger of Zendikar, not Primeval Titan - Ratchet Bomb and Consume the Meek are the SB cards I carry for this guy - and Consume the Meek is a very good card for a LOT of decks that seem to be problems for Tezzeret control. Note, I wouldn't run this in a more aggro-based Tezzeret deck.
In my experience, Valakut is, by far, one of the easiest tier 1 combos to control that there is - and if you can manage to get an early Tezzeret out and stick one 5/5 beating them to apply some early pressure - then use him for card-digging and life gain - it's highly effective. One note, though - I almost always side out counters against Valakut. The early disruption -can- be effective, but the risk/reward is fairly devastating, imo, if you get hit by a summoning trap that pulls out an early Titan or Avenger.
Another card I've found nice against Valakut (I don't run it, it depends on how much black you run and how much room you have) is Praetor's Grasp. Take their Valakuts so long as you reliably have enough ways to take out their creatures. It serves the dual purpose of keeping your land drops up if you would miss one, and taking their Valakuts out of the deck. Surgical Extraction, if you find yourself reliably able to take out ONE Valakut but not all of them, is also an effective card as well - likewise if you run the creature removal or Despise to be able to reliably remove a Primeval Titan.
Went 4-0 at a 14 player game day with this build on saturday. First round bye, then beat GW shaman-blade, monoB (w/ Phyrexian Obliterator , batterskull, and lashwrithe), and Grixis Twin in the last round.
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I swear, this card has "protection from Chris Jobin," and its rather infuriating.
What do you guys think of running signal pest over the hex parasite and myr?
I think they add alot to the build and also are pretty evasive. let me know what you think.
Don't think I've ever wished I had battlecry in game, and hex parasite is there to be a utility creature, not just a beat-stick. Evasion is great, but we have vault skirge for that already. Signal pest also can end up literally being a 0/1 plant token with evasion sitting alone on the board if you don't have the right hand. I wouldn't run it.
What do you guys think of running signal pest over the hex parasite and myr?
I think they add alot to the build and also are pretty evasive. let me know what you think.
The key to the deck is achieving and maintaining metalcraft as soon as you can. Signal pest allows you to achieve it, yes. But with the amount of burn present (RDW, Vamps), creature based artifacts are very bad. This is why Kibler took out the 2 parasites/1 leaden for 3 flight spellbombs.
The key to the deck is achieving and maintaining metalcraft as soon as you can. Signal pest allows you to achieve it, yes. But with the amount of burn present (RDW, Vamps), creature based artifacts are very bad. This is why Kibler took out the 2 parasites/1 leaden for 3 flight spellbombs.
hey, could you post the updated kibler list for those of us who dont have SCG premium
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-Homer Simpson
4 Spellskite
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Argent Sphinx
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ichor Wellspring
2 Prophetic Prism
3 Tumble Magnet
2 Mox Opal
3 Flight Spellbomb
1 Batterskull
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Darkslick Shores
9 Island
2 Swamp
This list is somewhat based on Kibler's list from GP Singapore.
I really like Argent Sphinx and Vedalken Certarch, but I didn't like all of the aggressive creatures that his deck was using. I cut out Etched Champion and Steel Overseer for more controlling cards like Tumble Magnet, and I added in extra Argent Sphinx because I believe they are excellent in this deck.
No sideboard yet, it's too late for me to come up with one.
EDH:
RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
You're right that Tumble Magnet or Etched Champion is the question. If you're not playing Steel Overseers then EC becomes less valuable. To call Tumble Magnet more controlling than EC is a mistake though. There are few cards in the metagame as controlling as EC in a list that routinely has metalcraft.
Tumble Magnet comes out and stalls for a few turns and it's very good at that. However if Spellskite lands opposite it or is sitting there already then it is effectively blanked.
Etched Champion comes out and shuts down most ground-based traffic and it is a win-con itself. There is nothing grosser in this meta right now than an Etched Champion carrying Batterskull.
I was skeptical of EC until I actually started playing it. Then I realized that it is a golden control card and at 3cc it is priced exactly right for what it does.
Agreed - after playing it for awhile, I feel that it's one of the cards that, as a Tezzeret deckbuilder, whether you're aggro or control, it should be one of the deck staples considered in the same breath as Tumble Magnet and Everflowing Chalice - it really is that good.
While this thread has bounced numerous idea's for abusing Tezz, he has gone ahead and made a gem.
here is a link to his deck if you haven't seen it yet......
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=851638
As much as I liked playing around with the ichor wellsprings when they were released....never could I make them viable. He has. They "sorta" are the replacement for preordain while enabling metalcraft faster as NOONE will counter an ichor wellspring....lol. If I was to tweak his version, I would probably go something like this.......
-1 leaden myr
-1 mox opal
+1 batterskull
+1 sword of war and peace
other than that, the deck is pretty frickin "tight", allthough I would love to put a piston sledge or throne of geth to get better use out of the ichor and to also drop Tezz, proliferate and win
My friends always ask me "what is your goal for winning"..... I always answer that it depends on the game state. Tezz wins in multiple ways and you may use his ultimate to win one game and in the next "beat face". Tezz is just so versitile. In Kibler's version, he has narrowed/focused how Tezz is used to win. He will almost purely be -1ning himself to victory.
Discuss the deck and good luck in your FNM's tonight all.
I was thinking that they would essentially be preordains that helped out with metalcraft, which is imperative for this deck to function. You may be right, though, Preordain could just be better. I'm not sure, though.
And as for those who are talking about how good Etched Champion is...
I guess I still don't get it. It's just a 2/2. Sure, with Steel Overseer he becomes pretty impressive, but I guess I don't think it's worth the 8 slots for that kind of interaction. I suppose I need to test it. :/
EDH:
RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
Kibler has 22 lands and 4 Ichor Wellspring instead of Preordain. That can't be the best choice. He's got 16 blue lands also so it's not a mana consideration.
Testing in the new meta I'm really surprised how much faster it is except when I'm facing CawBlade, which has become one of the slower lists. I think Kibler has the right idea about forgetting the ultimate and just using the +1 and -1 alternating if possible. I rarely get the ultimate off online any more. Usually I win off of multiple 5/5's beating face or lose to very fast aggro or aggro-control with no opportunity to use the +1 to get up to 4 loyalty.
@cescobar
I think the key to Etched Champion and Steel Overseer is that they can both be good on their own. When I drop a Steel Overseer on an empty board and it is not removed quickly I win a large percentage of the games. Etched Champion is more reliant on other cards because he's just a bear without metalcraft and a bear with protection without Steel Overseer or equipment.
I'm using both in a midrange shell at this point and so far it is good against control and good against most aggro but it is having some issues with aggro-control. I think I'm not at critical mass to drop a threat every turn against aggro-control and that's the problem. Kibler's list has a huge number of threats in it and Steel Overseer makes just about everything in the list better.
argent sphinx is good, but 4 is extreme. try cutting 2 of these, its much better i assure you.
i think its also safe to say you could cut the prophetic prisms and ichor wellsprings for etched champion for more success.
so:
-2 argent sphinx
-2 prophetic prism
-3 ichor wellspring
+4 etched champion
+1 batterskull
+1 sword of feast and famine
+1 flight spellbomb
those changes should work much better. also, the reason etched champion is incredible is because the whole point of your deck is to get metalcraft early, and once that is done, he becomes a protection from all colors creature that you can equip with any equipment to start bashing face for MASSIVE gain, and they cant really do anything about it.
1x Karn Liberated
1x Liliana Vess
4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Sorceries:
4x Preordain
Instants:
4x Mana Leak
Creatures:
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Spellskite
4x Etched Champion
Artifacts:
2x Batterskull
3x Contagion Clasp
2x Everflowing Chalice
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
4x Tumble Magnet
4x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Darkslick Shores
4x Drowned Catacomb
3x Inkmoth Nexus
5x Island
2x Swamp
3x Tectonic Edge
2x Consume the Meek
2x Memoricide
1x Phrexian Metamorph
3x Ratchet Bomb
1x Spellskite
2x Steel Sabotage
1x Sword of Body and Mind
3x Torpor Orb
Round 1: U/W Control - It's not an overly strong deck - but watching my Etched Champion single handedly hold off a Gideon was quite fun. I won 2-0 no sweat, - my opponent even day'd his own Sun Titan to kill my Etched Champion - which was shortly replaced on the next turn. Every single round, I watched this card frustrate my opponents and win me games.
Round 2: Big Red - This was actually a fairly challenging matchup. I won game 1, lost game 2 (getting land screwed after mulling to 4) and game 3 I managed to win with my opponent having an level 8 Kargan Dragonlord out thanks to the very, very good combination of Liliana tutoring Tezzeret, next turn Liliana tutoring a tumble magnet, playing Tezzeret, pulling the tumble magnet out, and pulling a Tezz ultimate next turn for 14 and an etched champion with a Sword of Feast and Famine adding in 4 more (plus the two he'd taken for Tezz's Gambit). The matchup is particularly challenging due to it running four tumble magnets - damn near the only card that can do anything about Etched Champion. I definitely had him stand in the face of koth and negate his +1 few times, however.
Round 3: U/B Control - I just absolutely shredded this deck. There was absolutely nothing it could do to etched champion if I got it out. The deck has so few threats, and I even held a Grave Titan at bay with three etched champions. He's just a nightmare to control decks that don't run any colorless sources of removal - moreso to U/B control as neither blue nor black have any effective artifact removal whatsoever.
Round 4: White Weenie - This was another pretty close matchup. I won game one due to - you guessed it - Etched Champion. I put him on the field, and 99% of decks have absolutely *nothing* they can do about him. I put him out early, they lose one creature every turn their attack. Put the game off long enough to get either a Tezzeret or a Batterskull out, and it just seems to be very good. Game 2 I got hit with a very quick SF Mystic, Batterskull, SF Mystic, SoFaF, squadron hawk beast and lost pretty quickly. Game three I got a turn 2 torpor orb - and the only card he had in his deck that could remove it was the 2-of Revoke Existences he ran. He'd went up to 4-of Leonin Relic-Warders, but they do nothing with Torpor Orb on the field - neither do squad hawk or SF mystic. This game was -way- closer than it had to be because I drew no threats whatsoever, and I got stuck at 1 black source with a Consume the Meek in my hand for six turns - he had 2 relic warders, a single squad hawk, 2 SF mystics - all played with Torpor Orb out, me with 3 tumble magnets, 2 chalices and a clasp out - I dragged it out until I got the mana for a consume the meek - played it, and my opponent scooped. He would've likely lost anyways as I had him up to 7 poison, but that was the nail in the coffin. The guy, 3-0 at the time, said "There's just something that doesn't seem fair about an Etched Champion equipped with Batterskull with a spellskite on the battlefield.
Round 5: RDW - I won game 1 handily - once again, a turn 4 metalcrafted Etched Champion bought me enough time to get a Batterskull and that was all there was to it. Game 2 I lost on turn 7 as I played a Batterskull with 3 life left, my opponent topdecked a lightning bolt. Game 3 I lost when my opponent topdecked a crush on turn 7 and turn 8 - both after I had just played a Batterskull, with a Spellskite out. I know this is what red does, but that was literally the only card he could've played to prevent me from life-swinging the game back out of his reach.
In summation: Etched Champion is RIDICULOUS in Tezzeret control so long as you've got enough artifacts to reliably get him metalcraft - and they need to not be creatures. The more non-creature artifacts you have the better - the amount of exasperation of what to do about him was obvious to watch. I watched opponents blow Divine Offerings on charge-less tumble magnets in order to kill him - he was THAT much trouble. I honestly don't know if this could've gone any better than I saw it in my head. It certainly helped that I was playing against aggro, but it felt like aggro decks were the iffy weak spot of these decks anyways - this guy is just so strong against any aggro deck other than Tempered Steel (and even then he can still hold Porcelain Legionnare which may very well be the scariest individual creature in that deck that they'll be attacking with at bay) - but that's what the SB is for.
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Spellskite
3 Steel Overseer
4 Etched Champion
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Artifacts
3 Mox Opal
1 Accorder's Shield
1 Spidersilk Net
3 Ichor Wellspring
3 Torpor Orb
Spells
3 Nature's Claim
2 Dismember
3 Stoic Rebuttal
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Lands
2 Creeping Tarpit
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
5 Islands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Torpor Orb
1 Shrine of Loyal Legions
3 Negate
2 Dismember
1 Shrine of Limitless Power
2 Argent Sphinx
Cards on the bubble after early testing: Steel Overseers, which are too easy to remove and side out against everything but aggro, Wurmcoil Engine, which seems like win more because if I can cast it I've probably already won the game, and Accorder's Shield which so far has only been used to activate Mox Opals early.
Cards looking to get in to the main list: 4th Torpor Orb, which is doing very well against Caw so far and also handles things like Manic Vandal and Gatekeeper of Malakir, Shrine of Loyal Legions which has been golden every time I sided it in, mostly against aggro.
Card on the outside looking in: Beast Within. I made the list thinking about it and main deck Nature's Claim but when I actually put it together I could not find room for it. Maybe coming in for the Steel Overseers.
I almost want to run 4x Semblance Anvil (maybe using the Ichor Wellsprings as a sacrifice or an extraneous Mox Opal) instead of the Etched Champions so that most of my artifacts are coming in for free (or 1 mana) and therefore I have free mana to pay for Mana Leaks and Spell Pierces. Being able to play spells without fear is huge vs control decks. Might also be interesting to see if instead of running 4 Overseer & 4 Champion, maybe 4 Anvil 2 Champion 2 Myr Superions (free 5/6 creatures w/ Anvil, woohoo!)?
Trade Thread
Standard
UB UB Control UB
UW UW Pristine Control UW
UW Venser Control UW
semblance anvil needs about a billion card drawing things to work properly. you also have to make your deck specifically for that card in order for it to perform well.
i'd stay away from that card
What I'm going to focus on until Caw is either killed or confirmed is creatures that pass the Jace test and artifacts that make the other tier 1/1.5 lists much weaker.
Passing the Jace test at the moment are Phyrexian Revoker, Etched Champion and Argent Sphinx. Myr Battlesphere passes the test but is just too slow in this meta since aggro took off again, same for Precursor Golem.
Artifacts that hurt tier 1/1.5 are:
Spellskite (shuts down a lot of damage from aggro, forces removal that would like to go elsewhere to land on it instead, shuts down Tumble Magnet, shuts down SplinterTwin.)
Torpor Orb (Stoneforge Mystic, Squadron Hawk, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Manic Vandal, Deceiver Exarch, Acidic Slime, Primeval Titan.) Landing Torpor Orb on the play against CawBlade is a huge advantage until they remove it. Landing it before Etched Champion comes down stops both Gatekeeper of Malakir and Manic Vandal from removing your defense and then attacking for the win. Landing it against SplinterTwin forces them to dig for Into the Roil before they can go off. Landing it against Valakut stops the 2-turn win combo dead in it's tracks and after sideboarding shuts down their Acidic Slime answer. Landing it against RDW stops Goblin Bushwhacker ambushes and Manic Vandal.
Spidersilk Net (on a Spellskite, MC Etched Champion or Argent Sphinx blocks CawBlade, Batterskull, Emeria Angel and Mirran Crusader all day, on a Phyrexian Revoker blocks unequipped hawks.) Turns on Mox Opals early.
Accorder's Shield (shuts down aggro on a MC Etched Champion who can attack and block, puts non-MC Etched Champion out of bolt range forcing a trade-off and a bolt to kill.) Turns on Mox Opals early.
So what can go in that list alongside all of the anti-meta stuff to power it up to the current Standard level?
Jace is an obvious answer, but Tezzeret and Argent Sphinx fill 6-7 slots at that spot in the curve. Jace Beleren is probably better because at 3cc he competes only with Etched Champion and he fills the role of pre-emptive control against big Jace and damage control afterwards.
After that I figure there are all of 6 slots open in the list and probably a couple of them should be artifacts. It's going to be interesting trying to figure out how to flesh it out. The criteria should be passes the Jace Test or pure power and artifacts are better than anything else. And the list is a bit short on draw/selection power.
Torpor orb helps a bit but he can still attack whit the titan,(really work vs the avenger tough).Everytime i tried memoricide on one of the 2 titan,the other one came in crashing the party.
Each game i had enough tumble magnet and a torpor orb to keep titan/avenger at bay,he just killed me whit montains.
Nature claim>spellkites
Valakut>etched champion since its colorless dmg.
Any help please?
Your best bet with midrange is IoK to slow them down a little and then counter Green Sun's Zenith/Primeval Titan/Avenger of Zendikar and hope they are not running Summoning Trap or that they hit an Overgrown Battlement if they are.
If you're playing CawBlade you can over-run them early but Tezzeret doesn't really have anything like that.
ALWAYS save Metamorph for Primeval Titan. Running 4x Tumble Magnets usually means I have one before they have a Titan out. Metamorphing their Primeval Titan lets you search for your Tec Edges, and they usually cannot stop your Primeval Titan the same way that you can stop theirs (due to Magnet). If you can destroy 2 Valakuts, the game is usually over - three and it's -really- close to over.
Tezzeret ultimates are your best friend. If you have a Metamorph in your hand and a magnet or two on the field, Tezzeret ultimates even for 8-10 life can really save you the game - particularly if you know they're very close to combo-ing out. Even if it means killing Tezzeret.
Also, because of the way that the Valakut combo works on triggers from Mountains entering, one Spellskite immediately negates 2/3 of any Valakut combo at worst - assuming you have no blue sources at all in play. One of the advantages of the Valakut combo - in that all triggers go on the stack at exactly the same time, means that you can redirect ALL of the Valakut triggers from a Primeval Titan attack/entering to ONE spellskite.
If they have 3 Valakuts out, cast a Titan and search for two mountains - that would yield 18 damage to you - however, even if you have no blue mana open, you can pay 12 life to redirect all 6 triggers to your Spellskite while they're on the stack, effectively taking 1/3 of the damage off of any Valakut triggers - even more if you have blue sources open - since both mountains enter at the exact same time, there's no way they can save it short of removing your Spellskite before hand - another thing that can be really nice to prevent that is to equip your Spellskite with a Sword of BaM or FaF - which makes their only removal outlet for Spellskite being Valakut effects to begin with.
Really, the scariest card that Valakut runs for me is Avenger of Zendikar, not Primeval Titan - Ratchet Bomb and Consume the Meek are the SB cards I carry for this guy - and Consume the Meek is a very good card for a LOT of decks that seem to be problems for Tezzeret control. Note, I wouldn't run this in a more aggro-based Tezzeret deck.
In my experience, Valakut is, by far, one of the easiest tier 1 combos to control that there is - and if you can manage to get an early Tezzeret out and stick one 5/5 beating them to apply some early pressure - then use him for card-digging and life gain - it's highly effective. One note, though - I almost always side out counters against Valakut. The early disruption -can- be effective, but the risk/reward is fairly devastating, imo, if you get hit by a summoning trap that pulls out an early Titan or Avenger.
Another card I've found nice against Valakut (I don't run it, it depends on how much black you run and how much room you have) is Praetor's Grasp. Take their Valakuts so long as you reliably have enough ways to take out their creatures. It serves the dual purpose of keeping your land drops up if you would miss one, and taking their Valakuts out of the deck. Surgical Extraction, if you find yourself reliably able to take out ONE Valakut but not all of them, is also an effective card as well - likewise if you run the creature removal or Despise to be able to reliably remove a Primeval Titan.
4 island
3 creeping tar pit
3 drowned catacomb
3 darkslick shores
4 inkmoth nexus
1 tectonic edge
4 tezzeret, agent of bolas
3 jace beleren
1 duress
3 inquisition of kozilek
2 black sun's zenith
3 phyrexian metamorph
1 wurmcoil engine
4 everflowing chalice
4 sphere of the suns
2 torpor orb
4 tumble magnet
1 batterskull
1 mindslaver
1 contagion engine
1 duress
1 inquisition of kozilek
1 go for the throat
1 life's finale
3 memoricide
1 myr battlesphere
2 phyrexian revoker
2 ratchet bomb
2 spell pierce
Trade Thread
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=311290
In my SB I include Flashfreeze and Surgical Extraction. Also, having Despise main is really good. Either Despise or Flashfreeze a Primeval Titan, then Extract the rest away. If you run Tumble Magnet and Torpor Orb, the it is really hard for them to get land from their deck.
EDH:▼
(links to 3D generals)
Playing: Designing:
Retired:
I think they add alot to the build and also are pretty evasive. let me know what you think.
:symr:Big Red:symr:
:symw:Suture Sisters:symw:
:symb::symu:Tezz:symu::symb:
:symr:KRed:symr:
:symg:Elves:symg:
PepperJack
The key to the deck is achieving and maintaining metalcraft as soon as you can. Signal pest allows you to achieve it, yes. But with the amount of burn present (RDW, Vamps), creature based artifacts are very bad. This is why Kibler took out the 2 parasites/1 leaden for 3 flight spellbombs.
hey, could you post the updated kibler list for those of us who dont have SCG premium