I run 3 Slagstorms and 2 BSZ main deck in mine. While Slagstorm is used more, it generally doesn't win a game the way a well timed BSZ will, partucularly post sideboard when Caw Go drops a Baneslayer. By then, you should have enough mana to kill it even if it gets the sword.
Oh I answered it. Do you really want me to list all of them?
Vampires
Kuldotha Red
RDW
Goblins
Elves
Quest
MGS (Mono Green Sleigh)
Esper Aggro
Mono Blue Aggro
Mono White Knights
Boros
Bottom line is they can play differently knowing they are safe for 1-2 more turns.
Where it normally is best to play ABC they can play BCA and get away with it.
Zenith is a MUCH slower card no matter how you look at it. -1/-1 is much different on turn 3 then 3 damage from a sweeper on t3.
There are situations where BSZ is better, I WILL NOT debate that. But in general, Slagstorm is a better card for this meta hands down.
Sorry but the next time you ask a silly question and ask for a specific answer to your silly question expect a broad answer. I hate to say it but getting smart with me is silly, specially since I am one of the largest contributors to this thread.
I run 3 Slagstorms and 2 BSZ main deck in mine. While Slagstorm is used more, it generally doesn't win a game the way a well timed BSZ will, partucularly post sideboard when Caw Go drops a Baneslayer. By then, you should have enough mana to kill it even if it gets the sword.
You should be running Hard removal if the Baneslayer is what you are worried about. SP is a total hate card when it comes Zeniths.
If you are running red, swords are the least of your worries. Creatures top put a sword on are what you need to worry about.
UB - Tezzerator 2.0 - UB
8-3-0
(Decklist and blog updated 4/11/2011)
"Fun fact about me: I home brew my buddies meta deck. He went from having a much lower ranking then me to a significantly higher rating since I started doing this."
Zenith is a MUCH slower card no matter how you look at it. -1/-1 is much different on turn 3 then 3 damage from a sweeper on t3.
There are situations where BSZ is better, I WILL NOT debate that. But in general, Slagstorm is a better card for this meta hands down.
In any other deck I would have given that point to you but just for discussion sake Ima gonna poke angry bears... For all intents and purposes I'm assuming the deck we are playing is Tezz the Mind Hammer
Slagstorm
Pro:-
1) 3 damage is usually enough to kill all creatures in agro decks
2) Can come down turn 3 leaving time for you to ramp on turn 2
3) Flexible enough to hit players/planeswalkers if the need arises.
4) In same colors as Pyroclasm and other burn spells
5) 5/5 and 4/4 from planeswalkers are safe
Con:-
1) Kill creatures with damage so anything with Pro-Red is safe
2) Damage disappears at end of turn so big creatures or pumped by spell creatures are safe
3) 3 Damage to kill planeswalkers hits you to
4) Doesn't kill Indestructible or Regenerate Creatures
5) Amount of damage is fixed
Black Sun's Zenith
Pro:-
1) Reusable so you don't mind using it as a 1-for-1 early on
2) Flexible enough to kill creatures regardless of P/T
3) Kills Creatures with Indestuctible and Regenerate and Pro-Black
4) Can be used to shuffle library (and decking but really the game shuldn't go for that long)
5)Affect is a state based affect (means the counters stay)
Con:-
1) Huge mana investment (by default means weak to soft counters)
2) Not main colors of the deck
3) Shrinks Tezz's 5/5
4) Doesn't hit players or planeswalkers
Now I left out slow out of cons for BSZ because of the deck we are playing, Tezz the Mind Hammer, most of the time we want to see an early accelerant to drop a turn 3 planeswalker... So our ideal want would have a turn 2 Sphere of the Sun or Everflowing Chalice, fixing would rarely be an issue with the likes of Prophetic Prism and dual lands (Tarpit and Darkslick)
So assuming we could pontentially power a turn 3 walker we cans BSZ for 2,
Next lets look at Turn 3 and the creatures we can kill Slagstorm - Everything except Pro-Red, (yes Kor Firewalker is still in the format), and Industructible/Regenerate (Ezuri (for other Elves) and Knight Examplar) Black Sun's Zenith
For 1 Assuming we dont' have turn 2 Accelerate - Everything but 2 toughness and greater (So Goblin Guide, Goblin Wardriver, Stoneforge Mystic, etc... if they are on the play then Crusaders, Nighthawk Ezuri, Vengevine, etc...)
For 2 if we do have Accelerate - Really only Vampire Nighthawk survives but it has 0 power so deathtouch/lifelink is useless and if they have ramp Vengevine will survive as a 2/1
Really the only way for us not to be able to kill creatures against agro turn 3 is if we play against against Quest and they combo of before we can wrath, and if that happens no ammount of Slagstorm or BSZ can help you...
Your argument that they can play around a wrath safely also works against Slagstorm as well, BSZ has the advantage of being reuseable and -1/-1 countetrs so playing around it is harder...
Now back to the argument that BSZ is slow, Reaching BB is not that hard as I played Tezz the Mind Hammer aswell... So really with the amount of mana acceleration in the deck BSZ is nearly, if not, the same as Slagstorm...
It being a Meta-choice is another question altogether depending on what you play against... But in an agro meta in Tezz the Mind Hammer decks Slagstorm=BSZ... No difference thats what my testing has led me to believe
so guys, know how the Mignon failed to name this deck? i got a pretty awesome idea for a name: Super Tezz Deck or short STD.
name both implies that it's using the new tezz (hence super tezz) and describes the explosiveness of the deck when the tezz or forgemaster combo gets down.
I'm going to start calling it this at my FNM. Hopefully someone can carry it to states or a PTQ :P. what do you guys think?
Your argument that they can play around a wrath safely also works against Slagstorm as well, BSZ has the advantage of being reuseable and -1/-1 countetrs so playing around it is harder...
To be honest, it's re usability is almost questionable at this point. If you are in an aggro meta, you have to make sure you draw that card again when you need it. The need to replay it is also a matter for late game when larger creatures that Slagstorm doesn't kill would hit the board.
Now back to the argument that BSZ is slow, Reaching BB is not that hard as I played Tezz the Mind Hammer aswell... So really with the amount of mana acceleration in the deck BSZ is nearly, if not, the same as Slagstorm...
No... no it is not. T3 BSZ= -1/-1. T3 Slagstorm=3 Damage sweeper. They are not the same early game and they never will be without insane mana acceleration.
Hitting BB is not the issue. The issue is that against the current aggro in the meta Slagstorm deals with boards much easier and in a much more efficient manner. Cutting Slagstorm for BSZ is hard to do without losing your own tempo and consistency in the current meta.
It being a Meta-choice is another question altogether depending on what you play against... But in an agro meta in Tezz the Mind Hammer decks Slagstorm=BSZ... No difference thats what my testing has led me to believe
Ohh forgot Nissa's Chosen survives BSZ for 2
You are aware that historically and factually that 0 creatures on an opponents board is better then 1+ creatures on their board right?
Another Con you can add to your list is that in this meta it is funny when you tap out to sweep a board with BSZ and pass the turn and all you hear your opponent say is "Are you tapped out?".
I don't dispute any of your Pros and Cons at all, but the issue at hand is not what the better card is, it is what the better card in the current meta is.
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UB - Tezzerator 2.0 - UB
8-3-0
(Decklist and blog updated 4/11/2011)
"Fun fact about me: I home brew my buddies meta deck. He went from having a much lower ranking then me to a significantly higher rating since I started doing this."
I just thought of another piece of tech I might need to try with this deck. It is fairly common, that I have Tezzeret out with 4 counters on him and 5+ artifacts out around turn 4/5, but not enough for to do lethal with Tezz's ultimate. I don't want to do Tezz's ultimate yet because it would kill him by removing all the counters on him and give my opponent a chance to recoup while I'm Tezzless. Enter Sorin Markov. Usually, I should be able to cast him easily enough by this turn. Drop Sorin, set opponent's life to 10 and ultimate with Tezz. He's also good for killing unequipped Hawks and Mystics and gaining yourself some life.
To be honest, it's re usability is almost questionable at this point. If you are in an aggro meta, you have to make sure you draw that card again when you need it. The need to replay it is also a matter for late game when larger creatures that Slagstorm doesn't kill would hit the board.
Improving the odds that you can draw it agains is always relevant in an agro meta... You have enough card draw in the form of Prophetic Prism, Preordain and Jace, the Mind Sculptor to draw it again even in the early game... Drawing 1 of 4 left in deck sounds better than drawing 1 of 3 left in the deck
No... no it is not. T3 BSZ= -1/-1. T3 Slagstorm=3 Damage sweeper. They are not the same early game and they never will be without insane mana acceleration.
But the deck has insane mana acceleration, if anything I would say it is the main reason why Tezz the Mind Hammer decks can be played... My post listed both scenario's where you do have and don't have the turn 2 ramp... If you do have the turn 2 ramp (Which ir really needed by the deck) BSZ and Slagstorm are the same, the only creature that will be left behind in an agro meta (that means cards that actuallly see play) after BSZ for 2 is Vengevine, Nighthawk, Nissa's Chosen, LEatherback Baloth, Etc...
Hitting BB is not the issue. The issue is that against the current aggro in the meta Slagstorm deals with boards much easier and in a much more efficient manner. Cutting Slagstorm for BSZ is hard to do without losing your own tempo and consistency in the current meta.
What you said is true, if you manage to draw it... However consistently drawing a wrath against agro is just as important, good agro players know how to hold back in anticipation for a wrath and the refill the board just as quickly... By improving the chances of you drawing a wrath again BSZ is a permanent solution compared to a stop-gap solution like Slagstorm... In regards to tempo, I would say getting a turn 2 ramp consistently in the deck is quite manageable, so really what do you lose in a turn 3 Slagstorm compared to a turn 3 BSZ? or even a turn 4 BSZ?
You are aware that historically and factually that 0 creatures on an opponents board is better then 1+ creatures on their board right?
While I don't disagree with you on that I would like to invite you to come visit the current agro decks with me... How many of them can actually take advantage of a 0/X creature? Next how many creatures have Toughness greater than Power?
To answer the 1st question it is Vamps (Because of Highborn), Elves (if the get out a Elvish Archdruid) and Equipment decks (Quest and maybe boros).... Now from this list lets looks at creatures that BSZ for 2 leaves behind Vamps (Nighthawk and Demon of Deaths Gate), Elves (Everything dies but Leatherback Baloth and Vengevine unless they have a Leyline of Vitality and an Archdruid out) Boros and Quest (Everything dies except Vengevine and Kor Skyfisher)...
While leaving them with no creatures is the best choice, I would happily sacrifice a them having a few small creatures left for the flexible wrath... P.S. Against elves if they get an an Eldrazi Moument or Ezuri and a Archdruid your wraths are basically useless...
Another Con you can add to your list is that in this meta it is funny when you tap out to sweep a board with BSZ and pass the turn and all you hear your opponent say is "Are you tapped out?".
So does any other deck when your opponent taps out, your Point? It's not like you can bluff your way out with 1 Land untapped against agro... So how is this a con? A control deck will ask the same question to an agro deck as well so yeah, the point?
I don't dispute any of your Pros and Cons at all, but the issue at hand is not what the better card is, it is what the better card in the current meta is.
Fair enough I still throw my lot with BSZ because your Meta and My Meta may be different... My meta changes from week to week because everyone likes to experiment and also the people who turn up fluctuates week to week... The meta is still evolving and more often than not rogue decks are popping out... BSZ is just as effective against the current decks as they are against rogue decks... Slagstorm is good against Established decks but you don't know how it will do againt rogue Decks...
Not going to quote all the posts I'm replying to here; I'm far too lazy for that. You know who you are.
Re: Black Sun's Zenith vs. Slagstorm: I don't think the question is which one is a better card. I will agree that in 90% of cases, I'd rather be running Slagstorm. However, the mana base must be taken into consideration. I tried splashing red in the deck a while back for Gav Blast, and I found that the mana base became so inconsistent that I was losing lots of games I simply shouldn't be because of it. If you could fetch duals with fetchlands or there were some sort of triland or 5-color land in the format, then I would be all over Slagstorm. However, it's a mana base issue and not a card comparison issue that makes me play BSZ. Of course, the fact that most of the people in my meta can't afford $25 Stoneforge Mystics and play with the $6 Sun Titans they already have also enters into the equation.
Re: Treasure Mage: I'm not impressed with TM as Contagion Engine #2. It's very rare that you absolutely NEED a Contagion Engine; most of the time BSZ is good enough. I don't think playing a Grey Ogre to fetch a mediocre card is worth it. On the other hand, however, if you want to throw cards like Mindslaver and Wurmcoil Engine into the deck, Treasure Mage is a plan I can get behind. With only 1 copy of 1 unimpressive target in the deck, though, it seems unimpressive. Incidentally, the only reason Contagion Engine is still in the deck is because there is simply no other card that does the same thing as it. I would very much like to cut the 2 copies I'm playing, but they're simply necessary for the deck to function.
Re: Poison Plan: Very interesting. The one thing I worry about is that playing a poison plan removes your own immunity to your own Black Sun's Zenith. I suppose you could go with the plan of "Play Ichorclaw Myr, turn Ichorclaw Myr sideways till it dies, then play another Ichorclaw Myr and repeat", but that seems super inefficient. On the other hand, making an Ichorclaw Myr 5/5 on turn 4 and starting to turn it sideways seems kind of hot. If only Ichorclaw Myr had flying...
Re: Blightsteel Colossus: You know what's better than an 11/11 trample infect? A 15/15 Shroud Flying Annihilator 6 that also Time Warps you. Just saying.
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Old terminology reference:
Play (noun): Battlefield
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Not going to quote all the posts I'm replying to here; I'm far too lazy for that. You know who you are.
Re: Black Sun's Zenith vs. Slagstorm: I don't think the question is which one is a better card. I will agree that in 90% of cases, I'd rather be running Slagstorm. However, the mana base must be taken into consideration. I tried splashing red in the deck a while back for Gav Blast, and I found that the mana base became so inconsistent that I was losing lots of games I simply shouldn't be because of it. If you could fetch duals with fetchlands or there were some sort of triland or 5-color land in the format, then I would be all over Slagstorm. However, it's a mana base issue and not a card comparison issue that makes me play BSZ. Of course, the fact that most of the people in my meta can't afford $25 Stoneforge Mystics and play with the $6 Sun Titans they already have also enters into the equation.
Re: Treasure Mage: I'm not impressed with TM as Contagion Engine #2. It's very rare that you absolutely NEED a Contagion Engine; most of the time BSZ is good enough. I don't think playing a Grey Ogre to fetch a mediocre card is worth it. On the other hand, however, if you want to throw cards like Mindslaver and Wurmcoil Engine into the deck, Treasure Mage is a plan I can get behind. With only 1 copy of 1 unimpressive target in the deck, though, it seems unimpressive. Incidentally, the only reason Contagion Engine is still in the deck is because there is simply no other card that does the same thing as it. I would very much like to cut the 2 copies I'm playing, but they're simply necessary for the deck to function.
Re: Poison Plan: Very interesting. The one thing I worry about is that playing a poison plan removes your own immunity to your own Black Sun's Zenith. I suppose you could go with the plan of "Play Ichorclaw Myr, turn Ichorclaw Myr sideways till it dies, then play another Ichorclaw Myr and repeat", but that seems super inefficient. On the other hand, making an Ichorclaw Myr 5/5 on turn 4 and starting to turn it sideways seems kind of hot. If only Ichorclaw Myr had flying...
Re: Blightsteel Colossus: You know what's better than an 11/11 trample infect? A 15/15 Shroud Flying Annihilator 6 that also Time Warps you. Just saying.
was that last comment about blightsteel referring to kuldotha forgemaster (cuz eldrazi arent artifacts :P)?
was that last comment about blightsteel referring to kuldotha forgemaster (cuz eldrazi arent artifacts :P)?
im sure its something else tho
I must have misunderstood the comment I was replying to then; my personal build generates a crapton of mana, and I was thinking of something to do with it. My first instinct was to throw Ol' 1-Shot in there, but then I realized I'd rather be playing something better.
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Old terminology reference:
Play (noun): Battlefield
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Hey guys, I'm thinking of building a tezzeret deck but I'm not sure which way to go. Which version is better? Grixis tezz or Forgemaster tezz? Which build has a better aggro and control matchup?
Hey guys, I'm thinking of building a tezzeret deck but I'm not sure which way to go. Which version is better? Grixis tezz or Forgemaster tezz? Which build has a better aggro and control matchup?
I advocate the Grixis Build.
Forgemaster from my testing is a little fragile, but if you are more of a combo player then go for it.
Koth is HUGE in the control matches, and the red sweepers are quick to wash away a pesky aggro board.
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UB - Tezzerator 2.0 - UB
8-3-0
(Decklist and blog updated 4/11/2011)
"Fun fact about me: I home brew my buddies meta deck. He went from having a much lower ranking then me to a significantly higher rating since I started doing this."
I just tried out LostCons Tezz build and I absolutely love it... I've gone with Blinkmoth nexus as opposed to tectonic -- it seems to really ratchet up the pressure. I've also changed around the mana base a bit and switched over to a mix of bsz and pyroclasms. This deck performs admirably and it really really has lots of answers to those icky bird decks.
Forgemaster from my testing is a little fragile, but if you are more of a combo player then go for it.
Koth is HUGE in the control matches, and the red sweepers are quick to wash away a pesky aggro board.
The Grixis version looks sweet against aggro, but how does it fare against control? I see that the deck has a lot of mana acceleration and filter, tons of sweeper... but mana leak? I'm sure you played this more than I did, but why isn't inquisition in the main over mana leak? Does inquisition work better with the forgemaster build?
Thanks in advance, I can sleeve up this weekend with any of those 2. I'm tired of playing landfall and would like to pilot something new.
The Grixis version looks sweet against aggro, but how does it fare against control? I see that the deck has a lot of mana acceleration and filter, tons of sweeper... but mana leak? I'm sure you played this more than I did, but why isn't inquisition in the main over mana leak? Does inquisition work better with the forgemaster build?
Thanks in advance, I can sleeve up this weekend with any of those 2. I'm tired of playing landfall and would like to pilot something new.
Koth and Tezzeret can turn aggro on a dime, they are really strong in the control match, where your sweepers and Jace and Tezzeret are the champs in the aggro match.
Mana Leak is something I am playing with for now, they will probably change in due time but for now I like them in the main.
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UB - Tezzerator 2.0 - UB
8-3-0
(Decklist and blog updated 4/11/2011)
"Fun fact about me: I home brew my buddies meta deck. He went from having a much lower ranking then me to a significantly higher rating since I started doing this."
Hey guys, I'm thinking of building a tezzeret deck but I'm not sure which way to go. Which version is better? Grixis tezz or Forgemaster tezz? Which build has a better aggro and control matchup?
The Grixis Build has a better time against Aggro and the Forgemaster has a better chance against control IMHO...
The Grixis Build plays more like a Planeswalker control deck Similar to Super Friends from last Standard season, you aim to power out a fast Planeswalker to establish Card Advantage and use Mass Removal spells and Tumble Magnet to control the board... The mana base for this build can be shaky at times thus the need for Mana filters and fixers... The deck from experience is very tight and is weak against decks that can disrupt your hand and your mana base... That being said, the deck has so many "Must Answer Threats", that your opponent will always be on the back foot trying to answer your powerful spells...
The Forgemaster deck is more of a combo deck which wins by getting to untap with Kudoltha Forgemaster... It uses Planeswlakers like Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas to filter through the deck to get Forgemaster and enough artifacts to sacrifice... Once you untap with Forgemaster you just land a big Artifact dude and erk out the win... It's agro matchup is a bit tougher than the Grixis Tez but makes up for it by playing cards like Ratchet Bomb and Black Sun's Zenith but against control, you have more slots for hand disruption due to your 2 color mana base... In addition the deck packs a lot of late game finishers in the form of huge artifact dudes... However be careful of Memoricide because once it names Forgemaster, you will be in a very tight spot...
Both decks are not strictly better or worse than one another so just pick one that suites your play style, do you like playing with Planeswalkers and watching your opponent squirm looking for answers to your powerful allies or do you enjoy winning from out of now where by sneaking in a game winner from your deck when your opponent least expects it...
Hey guys, I'm thinking of building a tezzeret deck but I'm not sure which way to go. Which version is better? Grixis tezz or Forgemaster tezz? Which build has a better aggro and control matchup?
i mean.. lol.. i really doubt theres a single person in this forum who truly has the exact decklist with the highest win% against the meta overall. sure they might have super refined versions of any of said decks, but.. i doubt anyone has played them all to get the perfect 75 for each, then compared them versus the meta.
my suggestion to you is start with a UB shell. find out what the core cards in the deck do, and what gaps you need to fill against your meta. if its fast aggro in your place then run some red OR white for sweepers in pyroclasm, slagstorm, and day of judgment. if you have a lot of control in your meta you can take a few different routes. the route i would take for a control saturated meta would be a deck heavily saturated with cards that are straight up bombs by themselves (like koth, jace, tezz, other planeswalkers, tumble magnet, etc.) but also work well together. if you take a shell of a deck like:
4 tezzeret
4 koth
1 Jace
then add in like 15+ artifacts, and some sweepers (black sun's zenith and pyroclasm and slagstorm) for the aggro decks you will probably be on your way to some wins in the control saturated meta, while still being able to handle aggro without too much trouble.
the cool thing about tezzeret is basically the infinite possibilities we have to base a deck around artifacts, but pull strength from any of the other colors, or even stay in a UB shell to maintain what consistency you might lose from a third color (even tho 3 colors is REALLY flippin easy to pull off because of sphere of the suns, and prophetic prism). what you are basically looking at with another color is most likely just more prophetic prisms and sphere of the suns to fix your mana a bit to support the extra color.
right now im testing an esper list with a grip of planeswalkers and actually 0 creatures. while ive only tested versus 3 people on mws, 2 of which were versus red deck wins (a bad matchup for us usually), and i stomped them both into quitting. the third game was versus a mono blue artifact deck that went down to game 3 (he had a crazy deck with probably 2, but possibly even 3 maindeck mindslavers). in game 3 i drew only 2 lands. when he got a ratchet bomb to kill my 2 sphere of the suns, and i continued to not draw a single land while he was ramping like crazy, then eventually taking my turn, it was G_G for me lol.
basically what im telling you is dont start to think that anyone here has it figured out. if you test an archetype you can find out the best versions of that deck, but very few people have tested every possibility for the UBx tezz decks.
Re: Blightsteel Colossus: You know what's better than an 11/11 trample infect? A 15/15 Shroud Flying Annihilator 6 that also Time Warps you. Just saying.
Wonna know what's better than a 15/15 shroud flying annihilator 6 that time warps you only when you cast it? An 11/11 trample indestructible infect creature that you get out on turn 5 because that 15/15 cannot be cheated into play on turn 5, so I'll take my 11/11 that actually KILLS someone in one hit. Also it helps when my 11/11 indestructible guy doesn't die to day of judgment when your 15/15 does, but oh well it's not going to be in play for that to matter, you're already at 11 poison by the time you have 10 mana in your mono green ramp deck.
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Standard: Esper Spirits-WUB
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
First and foremost this is an aggro deck. You need a turn 3 planeswalker. Koth is just so good on turn 3 and so is Tezz. I wish I could play 5 of each and drop Jace entirely. This deck can easily race midrange and can easily beat other aggro. I have not played against Caw yet but I am guessing that it would be a bit more difficult. My buddy built a UR Liquid Metal coating deck just to battle this beast and I still win 80-90% of the games.
I could use some help on the manabase as this deck really wants as much red as possible just incase you need to ultimate Koth. The real aim though is to ultimate Tezz after you have them at 10 life. I have easily done 20+ damage in a turn by using a combination of Tezz artifact men, ultimate Tezz, Galvanic blast, fling, and slagstorm.
Jace may be completely wrong in this deck and running anothe battlesphere may be a better choice. It is an instant 10 damage with a charged tezz on the board and if you have fling in hand it is another 4 damage. Most likely they have taken damage from fetch lands, mountain men, artifact men and with other artifacts on the board you easily win.
I toyed around with throne of geth as a 3 of for a bit and while it allows us to win out of nowhere by charging a freshly played Tezz and ult'ing him, I am not sure if it or fling is actually better.
I am certainly looking for feedback and I really suggest you test this list before you bash it.
One other note....how does everyone feel about the forgemaster combo vs. control? How does it fair in other matchups, what is it good against, what is it bad against? The reason I ask is that we could easily build a transformer sideboard of 3x Forgemaster, 1x Slaver, 1x Blightsteel and then 4 discard effects. This leaves us with 6 slots to help in the valakut match or others. Feedback?
Not going to quote all the posts I'm replying to here; I'm far too lazy for that. You know who you are.
Re: Blightsteel Colossus: You know what's better than an 11/11 trample infect? A 15/15 Shroud Flying Annihilator 6 that also Time Warps you. Just saying.
Are you also too lazy to post a decklist? If you want to contribute to this forum then post a decklist for discussion/development. Not random unfounded comments.
Wrt Blightsteel Colossus.. I believe in the forgemaster variants of the Tezz deck it is an extremely effective win con. Esp combined with mindslaver.... Emrakul is not searchable, not an artifact, and btw doesn't do a heck of alot from underneath a Tumble Magnet
Just sayin....
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Nice job not answering my question.
Oh I answered it. Do you really want me to list all of them?
Vampires
Kuldotha Red
RDW
Goblins
Elves
Quest
MGS (Mono Green Sleigh)
Esper Aggro
Mono Blue Aggro
Mono White Knights
Boros
Bottom line is they can play differently knowing they are safe for 1-2 more turns.
Where it normally is best to play ABC they can play BCA and get away with it.
Zenith is a MUCH slower card no matter how you look at it. -1/-1 is much different on turn 3 then 3 damage from a sweeper on t3.
There are situations where BSZ is better, I WILL NOT debate that. But in general, Slagstorm is a better card for this meta hands down.
Sorry but the next time you ask a silly question and ask for a specific answer to your silly question expect a broad answer. I hate to say it but getting smart with me is silly, specially since I am one of the largest contributors to this thread.
You should be running Hard removal if the Baneslayer is what you are worried about. SP is a total hate card when it comes Zeniths.
If you are running red, swords are the least of your worries. Creatures top put a sword on are what you need to worry about.
UB - Tezzerator 2.0 - UB
8-3-0
(Decklist and blog updated 4/11/2011)
"Fun fact about me: I home brew my buddies meta deck. He went from having a much lower ranking then me to a significantly higher rating since I started doing this."
In any other deck I would have given that point to you but just for discussion sake Ima gonna poke angry bears... For all intents and purposes I'm assuming the deck we are playing is Tezz the Mind Hammer
Slagstorm
Pro:-
1) 3 damage is usually enough to kill all creatures in agro decks
2) Can come down turn 3 leaving time for you to ramp on turn 2
3) Flexible enough to hit players/planeswalkers if the need arises.
4) In same colors as Pyroclasm and other burn spells
5) 5/5 and 4/4 from planeswalkers are safe
Con:-
1) Kill creatures with damage so anything with Pro-Red is safe
2) Damage disappears at end of turn so big creatures or pumped by spell creatures are safe
3) 3 Damage to kill planeswalkers hits you to
4) Doesn't kill Indestructible or Regenerate Creatures
5) Amount of damage is fixed
Black Sun's Zenith
Pro:-
1) Reusable so you don't mind using it as a 1-for-1 early on
2) Flexible enough to kill creatures regardless of P/T
3) Kills Creatures with Indestuctible and Regenerate and Pro-Black
4) Can be used to shuffle library (and decking but really the game shuldn't go for that long)
5)Affect is a state based affect (means the counters stay)
Con:-
1) Huge mana investment (by default means weak to soft counters)
2) Not main colors of the deck
3) Shrinks Tezz's 5/5
4) Doesn't hit players or planeswalkers
Now I left out slow out of cons for BSZ because of the deck we are playing, Tezz the Mind Hammer, most of the time we want to see an early accelerant to drop a turn 3 planeswalker... So our ideal want would have a turn 2 Sphere of the Sun or Everflowing Chalice, fixing would rarely be an issue with the likes of Prophetic Prism and dual lands (Tarpit and Darkslick)
So assuming we could pontentially power a turn 3 walker we cans BSZ for 2,
Next lets look at Turn 3 and the creatures we can kill
Slagstorm - Everything except Pro-Red, (yes Kor Firewalker is still in the format), and Industructible/Regenerate (Ezuri (for other Elves) and Knight Examplar)
Black Sun's Zenith
For 1 Assuming we dont' have turn 2 Accelerate - Everything but 2 toughness and greater (So Goblin Guide, Goblin Wardriver, Stoneforge Mystic, etc... if they are on the play then Crusaders, Nighthawk Ezuri, Vengevine, etc...)
For 2 if we do have Accelerate - Really only Vampire Nighthawk survives but it has 0 power so deathtouch/lifelink is useless and if they have ramp Vengevine will survive as a 2/1
Really the only way for us not to be able to kill creatures against agro turn 3 is if we play against against Quest and they combo of before we can wrath, and if that happens no ammount of Slagstorm or BSZ can help you...
Your argument that they can play around a wrath safely also works against Slagstorm as well, BSZ has the advantage of being reuseable and -1/-1 countetrs so playing around it is harder...
Now back to the argument that BSZ is slow, Reaching BB is not that hard as I played Tezz the Mind Hammer aswell... So really with the amount of mana acceleration in the deck BSZ is nearly, if not, the same as Slagstorm...
It being a Meta-choice is another question altogether depending on what you play against... But in an agro meta in Tezz the Mind Hammer decks Slagstorm=BSZ... No difference thats what my testing has led me to believe
Ohh forgot Nissa's Chosen survives BSZ for 2
T2
Commander
WGCaptain SisayWG
name both implies that it's using the new tezz (hence super tezz) and describes the explosiveness of the deck when the tezz or forgemaster combo gets down.
I'm going to start calling it this at my FNM. Hopefully someone can carry it to states or a PTQ :P. what do you guys think?
To be honest, it's re usability is almost questionable at this point. If you are in an aggro meta, you have to make sure you draw that card again when you need it. The need to replay it is also a matter for late game when larger creatures that Slagstorm doesn't kill would hit the board.
No... no it is not. T3 BSZ= -1/-1. T3 Slagstorm=3 Damage sweeper. They are not the same early game and they never will be without insane mana acceleration.
Hitting BB is not the issue. The issue is that against the current aggro in the meta Slagstorm deals with boards much easier and in a much more efficient manner. Cutting Slagstorm for BSZ is hard to do without losing your own tempo and consistency in the current meta.
You are aware that historically and factually that 0 creatures on an opponents board is better then 1+ creatures on their board right?
Another Con you can add to your list is that in this meta it is funny when you tap out to sweep a board with BSZ and pass the turn and all you hear your opponent say is "Are you tapped out?".
I don't dispute any of your Pros and Cons at all, but the issue at hand is not what the better card is, it is what the better card in the current meta is.
UB - Tezzerator 2.0 - UB
8-3-0
(Decklist and blog updated 4/11/2011)
"Fun fact about me: I home brew my buddies meta deck. He went from having a much lower ranking then me to a significantly higher rating since I started doing this."
Improving the odds that you can draw it agains is always relevant in an agro meta... You have enough card draw in the form of Prophetic Prism, Preordain and Jace, the Mind Sculptor to draw it again even in the early game... Drawing 1 of 4 left in deck sounds better than drawing 1 of 3 left in the deck
But the deck has insane mana acceleration, if anything I would say it is the main reason why Tezz the Mind Hammer decks can be played... My post listed both scenario's where you do have and don't have the turn 2 ramp... If you do have the turn 2 ramp (Which ir really needed by the deck) BSZ and Slagstorm are the same, the only creature that will be left behind in an agro meta (that means cards that actuallly see play) after BSZ for 2 is Vengevine, Nighthawk, Nissa's Chosen, LEatherback Baloth, Etc...
What you said is true, if you manage to draw it... However consistently drawing a wrath against agro is just as important, good agro players know how to hold back in anticipation for a wrath and the refill the board just as quickly... By improving the chances of you drawing a wrath again BSZ is a permanent solution compared to a stop-gap solution like Slagstorm... In regards to tempo, I would say getting a turn 2 ramp consistently in the deck is quite manageable, so really what do you lose in a turn 3 Slagstorm compared to a turn 3 BSZ? or even a turn 4 BSZ?
While I don't disagree with you on that I would like to invite you to come visit the current agro decks with me... How many of them can actually take advantage of a 0/X creature? Next how many creatures have Toughness greater than Power?
To answer the 1st question it is Vamps (Because of Highborn), Elves (if the get out a Elvish Archdruid) and Equipment decks (Quest and maybe boros).... Now from this list lets looks at creatures that BSZ for 2 leaves behind Vamps (Nighthawk and Demon of Deaths Gate), Elves (Everything dies but Leatherback Baloth and Vengevine unless they have a Leyline of Vitality and an Archdruid out) Boros and Quest (Everything dies except Vengevine and Kor Skyfisher)...
While leaving them with no creatures is the best choice, I would happily sacrifice a them having a few small creatures left for the flexible wrath... P.S. Against elves if they get an an Eldrazi Moument or Ezuri and a Archdruid your wraths are basically useless...
So does any other deck when your opponent taps out, your Point? It's not like you can bluff your way out with 1 Land untapped against agro... So how is this a con? A control deck will ask the same question to an agro deck as well so yeah, the point?
Fair enough I still throw my lot with BSZ because your Meta and My Meta may be different... My meta changes from week to week because everyone likes to experiment and also the people who turn up fluctuates week to week... The meta is still evolving and more often than not rogue decks are popping out... BSZ is just as effective against the current decks as they are against rogue decks... Slagstorm is good against Established decks but you don't know how it will do againt rogue Decks...
T2
Commander
WGCaptain SisayWG
Re: Black Sun's Zenith vs. Slagstorm: I don't think the question is which one is a better card. I will agree that in 90% of cases, I'd rather be running Slagstorm. However, the mana base must be taken into consideration. I tried splashing red in the deck a while back for Gav Blast, and I found that the mana base became so inconsistent that I was losing lots of games I simply shouldn't be because of it. If you could fetch duals with fetchlands or there were some sort of triland or 5-color land in the format, then I would be all over Slagstorm. However, it's a mana base issue and not a card comparison issue that makes me play BSZ. Of course, the fact that most of the people in my meta can't afford $25 Stoneforge Mystics and play with the $6 Sun Titans they already have also enters into the equation.
Re: Treasure Mage: I'm not impressed with TM as Contagion Engine #2. It's very rare that you absolutely NEED a Contagion Engine; most of the time BSZ is good enough. I don't think playing a Grey Ogre to fetch a mediocre card is worth it. On the other hand, however, if you want to throw cards like Mindslaver and Wurmcoil Engine into the deck, Treasure Mage is a plan I can get behind. With only 1 copy of 1 unimpressive target in the deck, though, it seems unimpressive. Incidentally, the only reason Contagion Engine is still in the deck is because there is simply no other card that does the same thing as it. I would very much like to cut the 2 copies I'm playing, but they're simply necessary for the deck to function.
Re: Poison Plan: Very interesting. The one thing I worry about is that playing a poison plan removes your own immunity to your own Black Sun's Zenith. I suppose you could go with the plan of "Play Ichorclaw Myr, turn Ichorclaw Myr sideways till it dies, then play another Ichorclaw Myr and repeat", but that seems super inefficient. On the other hand, making an Ichorclaw Myr 5/5 on turn 4 and starting to turn it sideways seems kind of hot. If only Ichorclaw Myr had flying...
Re: Blightsteel Colossus: You know what's better than an 11/11 trample infect? A 15/15 Shroud Flying Annihilator 6 that also Time Warps you. Just saying.
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Fetchland: Arid Mesa
Shockland: Watery Grave
M10 Dual: Glacial Fortress
was that last comment about blightsteel referring to kuldotha forgemaster (cuz eldrazi arent artifacts :P)?
im sure its something else tho
I must have misunderstood the comment I was replying to then; my personal build generates a crapton of mana, and I was thinking of something to do with it. My first instinct was to throw Ol' 1-Shot in there, but then I realized I'd rather be playing something better.
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Fetchland: Arid Mesa
Shockland: Watery Grave
M10 Dual: Glacial Fortress
I advocate the Grixis Build.
Forgemaster from my testing is a little fragile, but if you are more of a combo player then go for it.
Koth is HUGE in the control matches, and the red sweepers are quick to wash away a pesky aggro board.
UB - Tezzerator 2.0 - UB
8-3-0
(Decklist and blog updated 4/11/2011)
"Fun fact about me: I home brew my buddies meta deck. He went from having a much lower ranking then me to a significantly higher rating since I started doing this."
The Grixis version looks sweet against aggro, but how does it fare against control? I see that the deck has a lot of mana acceleration and filter, tons of sweeper... but mana leak? I'm sure you played this more than I did, but why isn't inquisition in the main over mana leak? Does inquisition work better with the forgemaster build?
Thanks in advance, I can sleeve up this weekend with any of those 2. I'm tired of playing landfall and would like to pilot something new.
Koth and Tezzeret can turn aggro on a dime, they are really strong in the control match, where your sweepers and Jace and Tezzeret are the champs in the aggro match.
Mana Leak is something I am playing with for now, they will probably change in due time but for now I like them in the main.
UB - Tezzerator 2.0 - UB
8-3-0
(Decklist and blog updated 4/11/2011)
"Fun fact about me: I home brew my buddies meta deck. He went from having a much lower ranking then me to a significantly higher rating since I started doing this."
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus
Spells
4 Preordain
4 Sphere of the Suns
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Into the Roil
3 Everflowing Chalice
3 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Duress
2 Mox Opal
2 Tumble Magnet
1 Mindslaver
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Creeping Tar Pit
6 Swamp
6 Island
3 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Phyrexian Crusader
2 Doom Blade
2 Go for the Throat
2 Consuming Vapors
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Platinum Emperion
I have a couple Inkmoth... maybe I'll swap them out.
The Grixis Build has a better time against Aggro and the Forgemaster has a better chance against control IMHO...
The Grixis Build plays more like a Planeswalker control deck Similar to Super Friends from last Standard season, you aim to power out a fast Planeswalker to establish Card Advantage and use Mass Removal spells and Tumble Magnet to control the board... The mana base for this build can be shaky at times thus the need for Mana filters and fixers... The deck from experience is very tight and is weak against decks that can disrupt your hand and your mana base... That being said, the deck has so many "Must Answer Threats", that your opponent will always be on the back foot trying to answer your powerful spells...
The Forgemaster deck is more of a combo deck which wins by getting to untap with Kudoltha Forgemaster... It uses Planeswlakers like Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas to filter through the deck to get Forgemaster and enough artifacts to sacrifice... Once you untap with Forgemaster you just land a big Artifact dude and erk out the win... It's agro matchup is a bit tougher than the Grixis Tez but makes up for it by playing cards like Ratchet Bomb and Black Sun's Zenith but against control, you have more slots for hand disruption due to your 2 color mana base... In addition the deck packs a lot of late game finishers in the form of huge artifact dudes... However be careful of Memoricide because once it names Forgemaster, you will be in a very tight spot...
Both decks are not strictly better or worse than one another so just pick one that suites your play style, do you like playing with Planeswalkers and watching your opponent squirm looking for answers to your powerful allies or do you enjoy winning from out of now where by sneaking in a game winner from your deck when your opponent least expects it...
T2
Commander
WGCaptain SisayWG
tbh bro theres more than those 2 archetypes.
theres esper control
esper weenie with tempered steel
ub tezz
grixis tezz
bug tezz
forgemaster tezz
koth tezz
proliferate tezz
poison + proliferate tezz
poison tezz
i mean.. lol.. i really doubt theres a single person in this forum who truly has the exact decklist with the highest win% against the meta overall. sure they might have super refined versions of any of said decks, but.. i doubt anyone has played them all to get the perfect 75 for each, then compared them versus the meta.
my suggestion to you is start with a UB shell. find out what the core cards in the deck do, and what gaps you need to fill against your meta. if its fast aggro in your place then run some red OR white for sweepers in pyroclasm, slagstorm, and day of judgment. if you have a lot of control in your meta you can take a few different routes. the route i would take for a control saturated meta would be a deck heavily saturated with cards that are straight up bombs by themselves (like koth, jace, tezz, other planeswalkers, tumble magnet, etc.) but also work well together. if you take a shell of a deck like:
4 tezzeret
4 koth
1 Jace
then add in like 15+ artifacts, and some sweepers (black sun's zenith and pyroclasm and slagstorm) for the aggro decks you will probably be on your way to some wins in the control saturated meta, while still being able to handle aggro without too much trouble.
the cool thing about tezzeret is basically the infinite possibilities we have to base a deck around artifacts, but pull strength from any of the other colors, or even stay in a UB shell to maintain what consistency you might lose from a third color (even tho 3 colors is REALLY flippin easy to pull off because of sphere of the suns, and prophetic prism). what you are basically looking at with another color is most likely just more prophetic prisms and sphere of the suns to fix your mana a bit to support the extra color.
right now im testing an esper list with a grip of planeswalkers and actually 0 creatures. while ive only tested versus 3 people on mws, 2 of which were versus red deck wins (a bad matchup for us usually), and i stomped them both into quitting. the third game was versus a mono blue artifact deck that went down to game 3 (he had a crazy deck with probably 2, but possibly even 3 maindeck mindslavers). in game 3 i drew only 2 lands. when he got a ratchet bomb to kill my 2 sphere of the suns, and i continued to not draw a single land while he was ramping like crazy, then eventually taking my turn, it was G_G for me lol.
basically what im telling you is dont start to think that anyone here has it figured out. if you test an archetype you can find out the best versions of that deck, but very few people have tested every possibility for the UBx tezz decks.
Wonna know what's better than a 15/15 shroud flying annihilator 6 that time warps you only when you cast it? An 11/11 trample indestructible infect creature that you get out on turn 5 because that 15/15 cannot be cheated into play on turn 5, so I'll take my 11/11 that actually KILLS someone in one hit. Also it helps when my 11/11 indestructible guy doesn't die to day of judgment when your 15/15 does, but oh well it's not going to be in play for that to matter, you're already at 11 poison by the time you have 10 mana in your mono green ramp deck.
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
Here is the list I have been running.
4 Koth
1 Jace
4 Spher of the Suns
4 Prophetic Prism
3 Everflowing Chalice
2 Mox Opal
4 Galvanic Blast
3 Slagstorm
2 Fling
2 Doomblade (may switch to pyroclasm)
So here is the deal with this style of deck.
First and foremost this is an aggro deck. You need a turn 3 planeswalker. Koth is just so good on turn 3 and so is Tezz. I wish I could play 5 of each and drop Jace entirely. This deck can easily race midrange and can easily beat other aggro. I have not played against Caw yet but I am guessing that it would be a bit more difficult. My buddy built a UR Liquid Metal coating deck just to battle this beast and I still win 80-90% of the games.
I could use some help on the manabase as this deck really wants as much red as possible just incase you need to ultimate Koth. The real aim though is to ultimate Tezz after you have them at 10 life. I have easily done 20+ damage in a turn by using a combination of Tezz artifact men, ultimate Tezz, Galvanic blast, fling, and slagstorm.
Jace may be completely wrong in this deck and running anothe battlesphere may be a better choice. It is an instant 10 damage with a charged tezz on the board and if you have fling in hand it is another 4 damage. Most likely they have taken damage from fetch lands, mountain men, artifact men and with other artifacts on the board you easily win.
I toyed around with throne of geth as a 3 of for a bit and while it allows us to win out of nowhere by charging a freshly played Tezz and ult'ing him, I am not sure if it or fling is actually better.
I am certainly looking for feedback and I really suggest you test this list before you bash it.
One other note....how does everyone feel about the forgemaster combo vs. control? How does it fair in other matchups, what is it good against, what is it bad against? The reason I ask is that we could easily build a transformer sideboard of 3x Forgemaster, 1x Slaver, 1x Blightsteel and then 4 discard effects. This leaves us with 6 slots to help in the valakut match or others. Feedback?
Are you also too lazy to post a decklist? If you want to contribute to this forum then post a decklist for discussion/development. Not random unfounded comments.
Wrt Blightsteel Colossus.. I believe in the forgemaster variants of the Tezz deck it is an extremely effective win con. Esp combined with mindslaver.... Emrakul is not searchable, not an artifact, and btw doesn't do a heck of alot from underneath a Tumble Magnet
Just sayin....