Still about the same topic, it boils down to this: which one is better in theory?
A) having 4 copies of 4 diff cards (e.g. 4 magnets, 4 crusaders, 4 clasps, 4 skitties) = 16 cards
B) having 3 copies of 4 diff cards (e.g. 3 magnets, ...) and 4 copies of metamorphs = 16 cards
Lets assume for a moment that all these cards cost the exact same mana. Which one is better A) or B)?
One scenario when B) is clearly better if you have already something on the battlefield (lets say a crusader) and you want to draw another one. In A) you have 3 more crusaders in your library. In B) you effectively have 7 more in your library.
One scenario when A) is better if you don't have a crusader yet and y want to draw one. In case of A) you have 4 in your library, in case of B) you have only 3.
Of course having preordains and baby jaces will help with the chances of getting one...
thats a great idea, i havent thought about it but looks like having 3 or 4 metamorphs would be a usefull i would say that i could add 3 and cut 1 magnet, 2 clasp or 2 magnets 1 clasp but i wouldnt cut a crusader still and that card still a clone that it can be usefull for stealing a titan or something like that and yet you can also copy enemy equipments like swords and bonehoards, i think that card has alot of potencial!!
.....
4 Tezzeret, 4 Necropede, 3 Plague Myr. Not a Skithiryx in sight. Also no counterspells. And no Preordain. And no Inquisition of Kozilek. This deck flies in the face of everything we knew about this archetype. There apparently is significantly more flexibility to it than previously imagined, and there are probably a wide range of things that can work, if in the hands of a competent player.
Of particular interest to me is the inclusion of 4 Throne of Geth and 4 Ichor Wellspring. Very interesting. It's as though this deck doesn't really care if it hits you once or 5x. It's got enough ways to proliferate that you'll lose eventually, and it's almost impossible to stop. It aims to get in a few hits here and there, then hold off its own death while it whittles down the opponent, one or two poison counters at a time.
Anybody know how a list like this can improve with NPH?
I definitely think Tezzeret's Gambit deserves a try in this list, since it has a stronger proliferate theme. It would probably be a good replacement for Jace, since they're essentially doing the same thing.
Let's get some ideas going.
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"That's the funny thing about free will. You don't feel any different without it."
EDH: RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
.....
4 Tezzeret, 4 Necropede, 3 Plague Myr. Not a Skithiryx in sight. Also no counterspells. And no Preordain. And no Inquisition of Kozilek. This deck flies in the face of everything we knew about this archetype. There apparently is significantly more flexibility to it than previously imagined, and there are probably a wide range of things that can work, if in the hands of a competent player.
Of particular interest to me is the inclusion of 4 Throne of Geth and 4 Ichor Wellspring. Very interesting. It's as though this deck doesn't really care if it hits you once or 5x. It's got enough ways to proliferate that you'll lose eventually, and it's almost impossible to stop. It aims to get in a few hits here and there, then hold off its own death while it whittles down the opponent, one or two poison counters at a time.
Anybody know how a list like this can improve with NPH?
I definitely think Tezzeret's Gambit deserves a try in this list, since it has a stronger proliferate theme. It would probably be a good replacement for Jace, since they're essentially doing the same thing.
Let's get some ideas going.
I saw that as well. I don't really like the Throne or Wellspring in this build, but he did win with it to they are probably better then I think and worth testing. I love that he used Tezzeret, he is just such a house in an infect deck like this one, and I can't believe more people aren't playing Tez in UB Infect. To me this deck wouldn't be close to viable without Tezz, but that's jmo. Also a 2 turn clock boosting Inkmoth/P. Myr/Necropede is better than a t4 clock boosting Chalices/Magnets/Clasps any day, Tezz's home is UB infect imo.
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.....
4 Tezzeret, 4 Necropede, 3 Plague Myr. Not a Skithiryx in sight. Also no counterspells. And no Preordain. And no Inquisition of Kozilek. This deck flies in the face of everything we knew about this archetype. There apparently is significantly more flexibility to it than previously imagined, and there are probably a wide range of things that can work, if in the hands of a competent player.
Of particular interest to me is the inclusion of 4 Throne of Geth and 4 Ichor Wellspring. Very interesting. It's as though this deck doesn't really care if it hits you once or 5x. It's got enough ways to proliferate that you'll lose eventually, and it's almost impossible to stop. It aims to get in a few hits here and there, then hold off its own death while it whittles down the opponent, one or two poison counters at a time.
Anybody know how a list like this can improve with NPH?
I definitely think Tezzeret's Gambit deserves a try in this list, since it has a stronger proliferate theme. It would probably be a good replacement for Jace, since they're essentially doing the same thing.
Let's get some ideas going.
do you know if there is a video of the deck playing at the tournament?
do you know if there is a video of the deck playing at the tournament?
I was at this tournament, and I'm almost positive there was no video of him playing the list.
But I did catch a little bit of him playing after one of my rounds finished early. Thomas Scharwark played the deck like an aggro list. He tries to hit on turn 2 or 3 for 1, and then sits back behind his planeswalkers and 5/5's while he proliferates them to death. Obviously the deck can also hit for 5 Infect on turn 4, and then sit back, but it is still an aggro strategy. I was talking to one of his friends once I dropped after going 4-3, and he was telling me that his friend was 6-0-1 with a UB Infect list without Preordain, Inquisition or Mana Leak. My mind was blown. While watching the match, I never realized that those cards just weren't in the list, and I'm sure his opponents thought the same thing.
Kibler was there as well, and I hope that he caught a bit of one of Thomas's matches. I will definitely be expecting Brian to comment on the list, and what he thinks about it's approach to the metagame in comparison to his own.
do you know if there is a video of the deck playing at the tournament?
The ichor wellspring is awesome, taking up slack for the missing preordains. A 5/5 wellspring is house, whether or not it has ionfect. Also, archie from the B/R thread was at that tournament, so he has some insight on this deck, ask him and check out that thread in my sig, he posted about this list
you bring in vatmothers for the aggro match ups but take out black sun's zenith??
Wrong. I do not bring in Vatmothers against aggro. I only bring them in vs. Valakut, Vengvine, and occasionally vs. Eldrazi. I would obviously not side out BSZ vs. eldrazi, but it is totally worthless against Valakut, which is the main reason I have the Vatmothers there, as this deck has a tough time against that deck.
I ran singleton BSZ main last daily event over one of the three skittles from Kibbler's last list. I was happy to have it every time I drew it. BSZ for one did the trick in terms of keeping them from establishing an effective clock, even though I shrunk a couple of crusaders to 1/1. Always a shame, but didn't impact my ability to win. Overall, mass creatures is a big blind spot of this deck, and it's good to have SOME answer to draw into with all those belerens.
I trust Kibbler to know better than me, but I've been pretty unhappy with 4x Beleren main. I remember two games during the last 4rounder having held reasonable 2x beleren hands, then drew into the other two belerens and lost the game because I was sitting on 3 copies of a card they were ignoring while hawks ate my face.
Right now i'm looking at -1 Beleren for +1 BSZ (so I'm running -1 beleren -1 skittles +2 BSZ vs Kibbler's list). Given that I've put up several losses to to swarms of flying 1/1's (decks built to avoid the tumble magnets that so many control decks run), I'm thinking the double BSZ action will help.
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I trust Kibbler to know better than me, but I've been pretty unhappy with 4x Beleren main. I remember two games during the last 4rounder having held reasonable 2x beleren hands, then drew into the other two belerens and lost the game because I was sitting on 3 copies of a card they were ignoring while hawks ate my face.
That's why I only run 3x in my build, they work just fine for card draw. BSZ is a card I really dislike in my build, I have so few threats I just do not see the logic in kill off my own dudes.
BSZ is a card I really dislike in my build, I have so few threats I just do not see the logic in kill off my own dudes.
Yeah I agree, its hard to justify killing my own. I know its expensive, but what about Contagion Engine for a clear? Only hurts opponents. Probably not the best choice since it is so expensive....
I need some help if anyone is willing to give it. I don't want to give up on Infect, so here's my deck list thus far:
Yes, I know that my deck is only 58. That is because I am debating putting in my Vatmothers MB and putting one more Vampire Bite and one more Virulent Swipe SB? Or maybe one more Tumble Magnet or one more Clasp. OR 2 more Doom Blades or 2 GFtT??? I just don't know!!!
I have had a lot of success with this list but I know that it could probably get better some where along the line. Suggestions on the MB or SB are much appreciated and wanted! Thanks guys!
Is Ichor Wellspring actually worth it? I tried it in the machine red deck and it was really lackluster, even with throne of geth. I guess Tezz makes it a bit better since it could be a 5/5 creature with a bonus when it dies.
the list is good but will need major changes to be competitive in the new meta (splintertwin combo)
the ichor wellspring list*
Ok, but what if you cannot get any Tezz at all? 1.) I am broke and 2.) none of my friends will trade me because they are gonna use him in some way or another. Does Wellspring/Geth still work well without him?
Ok, but what if you cannot get any Tezz at all? 1.) I am broke and 2.) none of my friends will trade me because they are gonna use him in some way or another. Does Wellspring/Geth still work well without him?
No. Wellspring/Get works DECENT at best WITH Tezz. It can be pretty nasty, but it is really hard to stop a good aggro deck with that build, even with BSZ, Ratchet Bombs, and spot removal. Crusaders are the key to the aggro matchup.
I have tried pretty much every version of a tezz deck you can imagine, and I like the infect brew I run the most.
Yeah I agree, its hard to justify killing my own. I know its expensive, but what about Contagion Engine for a clear? Only hurts opponents. Probably not the best choice since it is so expensive....
I need some help if anyone is willing to give it. I don't want to give up on Infect, so here's my deck list thus far:
Yes, I know that my deck is only 58. That is because I am debating putting in my Vatmothers MB and putting one more Vampire Bite and one more Virulent Swipe SB? Or maybe one more Tumble Magnet or one more Clasp. OR 2 more Doom Blades or 2 GFtT??? I just don't know!!!
I have had a lot of success with this list but I know that it could probably get better some where along the line. Suggestions on the MB or SB are much appreciated and wanted! Thanks guys!
I don't think I like SoFF in kibbler-style infect. This deck wants to drop threats and ride the tempo on turn 3, and the sword is a lot of negative tempo until it's active 5 mana later. There's good arguments both ways, but sword can be a real liability against decks that outdraw you in tectonic edges / removal / countermagic.
I think it's a good idea to run creeping tar pit. It's far too good vs planeswalkers not to run, filling a notable weakness this deck has. Also, 24 is too few lands for a deck that can't afford to ever miss its 3 drop, and a big handicap in control matches.
4x IoK is important too. The more info you have about their hand, the more leeway you have to be aggressive with your crusaders and planning the game out.
I'd go +3 creeping tar pit, -2 island, -2 SoFF, +1 tumble magnet, to begin with, and then further adjust based on meta; in my build i've got 1-2 BSZ's in the main, along with Tez and Roils, but no maindeck necropedes - but that's just a meta consideration.
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Slingin' cardboard out of Yokohama, Japan. (if you're local and play EDH or want to test competitive, drop me a line!)
.....
4 Tezzeret, 4 Necropede, 3 Plague Myr. Not a Skithiryx in sight. Also no counterspells. And no Preordain. And no Inquisition of Kozilek. This deck flies in the face of everything we knew about this archetype. There apparently is significantly more flexibility to it than previously imagined, and there are probably a wide range of things that can work, if in the hands of a competent player.
Of particular interest to me is the inclusion of 4 Throne of Geth and 4 Ichor Wellspring. Very interesting. It's as though this deck doesn't really care if it hits you once or 5x. It's got enough ways to proliferate that you'll lose eventually, and it's almost impossible to stop. It aims to get in a few hits here and there, then hold off its own death while it whittles down the opponent, one or two poison counters at a time.
Anybody know how a list like this can improve with NPH?
I definitely think Tezzeret's Gambit deserves a try in this list, since it has a stronger proliferate theme. It would probably be a good replacement for Jace, since they're essentially doing the same thing.
Let's get some ideas going.
i will be trying this build at my FNM and i will tell you guys how it went
No. Wellspring/Get works DECENT at best WITH Tezz. It can be pretty nasty, but it is really hard to stop a good aggro deck with that build, even with BSZ, Ratchet Bombs, and spot removal. Crusaders are the key to the aggro matchup.
I have tried pretty much every version of a tezz deck you can imagine, and I like the infect brew I run the most.
But....the deck already has 4 Phyrexian Crusaders. Look at the list again...
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"That's the funny thing about free will. You don't feel any different without it."
EDH: RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
1x Black Sun, 1x Inquisition, and a Mana Leak.
STANDARD:
UWDelverWU
LEGACY:
RGOBLINSR
RBURNR (Retired)
WWhite WeenieW (Work in Progress)
thats a great idea, i havent thought about it but looks like having 3 or 4 metamorphs would be a usefull i would say that i could add 3 and cut 1 magnet, 2 clasp or 2 magnets 1 clasp but i wouldnt cut a crusader still and that card still a clone that it can be usefull for stealing a titan or something like that and yet you can also copy enemy equipments like swords and bonehoards, i think that card has alot of potencial!!
thanks alot for pointing out that
That is exactly what I was thinking.
GWG/W HumansWG
RRChandra's Noble BerserkerRR
WWTempered SteelWW
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EDH
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Trade Thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6968464#post6968464
:symw::symb:Steel Wb Weenie
4 Phyrexian Crusader
3 Plague Myr
2 Jace Beleren
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Contagion Clasp
1 Contagion Engine
2 Doom Blade
2 Go for the Throat
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Throne of Geth
4 Tumble Magnet
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Island
4 Swamp
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Doom Blade
1 Go for the Throat
1 Into the Roil
4 Memoricide
1 Mimic Vat
2 Spell Pierce
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Virulent Wound
.....
4 Tezzeret, 4 Necropede, 3 Plague Myr. Not a Skithiryx in sight. Also no counterspells. And no Preordain. And no Inquisition of Kozilek. This deck flies in the face of everything we knew about this archetype. There apparently is significantly more flexibility to it than previously imagined, and there are probably a wide range of things that can work, if in the hands of a competent player.
Of particular interest to me is the inclusion of 4 Throne of Geth and 4 Ichor Wellspring. Very interesting. It's as though this deck doesn't really care if it hits you once or 5x. It's got enough ways to proliferate that you'll lose eventually, and it's almost impossible to stop. It aims to get in a few hits here and there, then hold off its own death while it whittles down the opponent, one or two poison counters at a time.
Anybody know how a list like this can improve with NPH?
I definitely think Tezzeret's Gambit deserves a try in this list, since it has a stronger proliferate theme. It would probably be a good replacement for Jace, since they're essentially doing the same thing.
Let's get some ideas going.
EDH:
RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
I saw that as well. I don't really like the Throne or Wellspring in this build, but he did win with it to they are probably better then I think and worth testing. I love that he used Tezzeret, he is just such a house in an infect deck like this one, and I can't believe more people aren't playing Tez in UB Infect. To me this deck wouldn't be close to viable without Tezz, but that's jmo. Also a 2 turn clock boosting Inkmoth/P. Myr/Necropede is better than a t4 clock boosting Chalices/Magnets/Clasps any day, Tezz's home is UB infect imo.
My Decks, Haves & Wants, Buy/Wish List, and Worksheets:
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:symu::symw::symb:Control:symb::symw::symu:
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Modern:
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Legacy:
:symu::symw::symr:Stoneblade:symr::symw::symu:
4 Phyrexian Crusader
2 Core Prowler
2 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
4 Tezzerett, Agent of Bolas
1 Contagion Engine
2 Go for the Throat
4 Ichor Wellspring
3 Throne of Geth
2 Virulent Wound
2 Mortarpod
3 Tumble Magnet
3 Tezzeret's Gambit
4 Drowning Catacomb
14 Swamp
This is something I have been proxying up to try out its pretty consistent and has a good card advantage it just has a tough matchup with Gideon.
:symr::symg::symb:New Jund:symr::symg::symb:
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:symu::symb:UB Tezz Infect:symu::symb:
do you know if there is a video of the deck playing at the tournament?
I was at this tournament, and I'm almost positive there was no video of him playing the list.
But I did catch a little bit of him playing after one of my rounds finished early. Thomas Scharwark played the deck like an aggro list. He tries to hit on turn 2 or 3 for 1, and then sits back behind his planeswalkers and 5/5's while he proliferates them to death. Obviously the deck can also hit for 5 Infect on turn 4, and then sit back, but it is still an aggro strategy. I was talking to one of his friends once I dropped after going 4-3, and he was telling me that his friend was 6-0-1 with a UB Infect list without Preordain, Inquisition or Mana Leak. My mind was blown. While watching the match, I never realized that those cards just weren't in the list, and I'm sure his opponents thought the same thing.
Kibler was there as well, and I hope that he caught a bit of one of Thomas's matches. I will definitely be expecting Brian to comment on the list, and what he thinks about it's approach to the metagame in comparison to his own.
Really interesting stuff.
The ichor wellspring is awesome, taking up slack for the missing preordains. A 5/5 wellspring is house, whether or not it has ionfect. Also, archie from the B/R thread was at that tournament, so he has some insight on this deck, ask him and check out that thread in my sig, he posted about this list
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Wrong. I do not bring in Vatmothers against aggro. I only bring them in vs. Valakut, Vengvine, and occasionally vs. Eldrazi. I would obviously not side out BSZ vs. eldrazi, but it is totally worthless against Valakut, which is the main reason I have the Vatmothers there, as this deck has a tough time against that deck.
STANDARD:
UWDelverWU
LEGACY:
RGOBLINSR
RBURNR (Retired)
WWhite WeenieW (Work in Progress)
I ran singleton BSZ main last daily event over one of the three skittles from Kibbler's last list. I was happy to have it every time I drew it. BSZ for one did the trick in terms of keeping them from establishing an effective clock, even though I shrunk a couple of crusaders to 1/1. Always a shame, but didn't impact my ability to win. Overall, mass creatures is a big blind spot of this deck, and it's good to have SOME answer to draw into with all those belerens.
I trust Kibbler to know better than me, but I've been pretty unhappy with 4x Beleren main. I remember two games during the last 4rounder having held reasonable 2x beleren hands, then drew into the other two belerens and lost the game because I was sitting on 3 copies of a card they were ignoring while hawks ate my face.
Right now i'm looking at -1 Beleren for +1 BSZ (so I'm running -1 beleren -1 skittles +2 BSZ vs Kibbler's list). Given that I've put up several losses to to swarms of flying 1/1's (decks built to avoid the tumble magnets that so many control decks run), I'm thinking the double BSZ action will help.
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Yeah I agree, its hard to justify killing my own. I know its expensive, but what about Contagion Engine for a clear? Only hurts opponents. Probably not the best choice since it is so expensive....
I need some help if anyone is willing to give it. I don't want to give up on Infect, so here's my deck list thus far:
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Darkslick Shores
6x Island
6x Swamp
2x Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
4x Phyrexian Crusader
4x Necropede
3x Contagion Clasp
3x Tumble Magnet
2x Sword of Feast and Famine
4x Preordain
2x Doom Blade
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Mana Leak
3x Memoricide
2x Virulent Swipe
2x Vampire Bite
2x Duress
2x Phyrexian Vatmother
1x Black Sun's Zenith
Yes, I know that my deck is only 58. That is because I am debating putting in my Vatmothers MB and putting one more Vampire Bite and one more Virulent Swipe SB? Or maybe one more Tumble Magnet or one more Clasp. OR 2 more Doom Blades or 2 GFtT??? I just don't know!!!
I have had a lot of success with this list but I know that it could probably get better some where along the line. Suggestions on the MB or SB are much appreciated and wanted! Thanks guys!
GWG/W HumansWG
RRChandra's Noble BerserkerRR
WWTempered SteelWW
UBGWGrand Architect PodWGBU
EDH
GUBThe MimeoplasmBUG
Trade Thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6968464#post6968464
My Facebook Page
https://twitter.com/JamesFullard
To Counter a Spell Jon Finkel Simply Taps Two Islands and Says No!
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My Youtube Channel
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•●«It's Pronounced Duh Mah Juh»●•
the ichor wellspring list*
RGStandard Gruul AggroRG
Ok, but what if you cannot get any Tezz at all? 1.) I am broke and 2.) none of my friends will trade me because they are gonna use him in some way or another. Does Wellspring/Geth still work well without him?
GWG/W HumansWG
RRChandra's Noble BerserkerRR
WWTempered SteelWW
UBGWGrand Architect PodWGBU
EDH
GUBThe MimeoplasmBUG
Trade Thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6968464#post6968464
No. Wellspring/Get works DECENT at best WITH Tezz. It can be pretty nasty, but it is really hard to stop a good aggro deck with that build, even with BSZ, Ratchet Bombs, and spot removal. Crusaders are the key to the aggro matchup.
I have tried pretty much every version of a tezz deck you can imagine, and I like the infect brew I run the most.
STANDARD:
UWDelverWU
LEGACY:
RGOBLINSR
RBURNR (Retired)
WWhite WeenieW (Work in Progress)
I don't think I like SoFF in kibbler-style infect. This deck wants to drop threats and ride the tempo on turn 3, and the sword is a lot of negative tempo until it's active 5 mana later. There's good arguments both ways, but sword can be a real liability against decks that outdraw you in tectonic edges / removal / countermagic.
I think it's a good idea to run creeping tar pit. It's far too good vs planeswalkers not to run, filling a notable weakness this deck has. Also, 24 is too few lands for a deck that can't afford to ever miss its 3 drop, and a big handicap in control matches.
4x IoK is important too. The more info you have about their hand, the more leeway you have to be aggressive with your crusaders and planning the game out.
I'd go +3 creeping tar pit, -2 island, -2 SoFF, +1 tumble magnet, to begin with, and then further adjust based on meta; in my build i've got 1-2 BSZ's in the main, along with Tez and Roils, but no maindeck necropedes - but that's just a meta consideration.
i will be trying this build at my FNM and i will tell you guys how it went
But....the deck already has 4 Phyrexian Crusaders. Look at the list again...
EDH:
RWU Zedruu, the Greathearted
BUG Damia, Sage of Stone
What are you running right now? And what are your ideas of reworking it?
GWG/W HumansWG
RRChandra's Noble BerserkerRR
WWTempered SteelWW
UBGWGrand Architect PodWGBU
EDH
GUBThe MimeoplasmBUG
Trade Thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6968464#post6968464