Yeah it seems like a perfect fit. I had tried garruk to kinda fill the same role. The sword seems much better, and it happens to also be the bane of valakut. It will allow us to not overextend as I had to with garruk from time to time. Also, creeping tar pit + sword seems like an amazing way to recover from any sweeper nonsense. I'm thinking the inquisitions should be mana leaks though. Mana leak is good enough to run without the sword in place of inquisition, but the sword tips it in mana leak's favor. I'm looking forward to testing this. Also, solemn simulacrum is the absolute best card we could get from M12, and I could see a UG version being more viable with M12. Black gives us entomber for our 4 drop, and not much else outside of removal. Just a thought.
I dunno if its the lack of sleep right now, but something made me think that a super ramp version of this deck might be worth checking out. Who knows, maybe it can even out race Valakut. Pod is more of a tool mostly to help me find my win conditions in the event that I dont draw one. Extra utility in all other situations.
Basic idea is to draw through and ramp up as quickly as possible. Overgrown in the board for aggro decks. Flashfreeze for you know who and the rest of the board is for control. This is really just an off the top of my head list.
EDIT: was just thinking Augury Owl might be a better choice than Sylvan Ranger. Seems like it would help make Oracle of Mul Daya nuts with preordain.
I like this list a lot better than the one you posted earlier. I would do a split between removal and permission but that's just me. The sideboard I don't know about but generally Frost Titan backed by Slime is about the best thing against Valakut. Then again this list is closer to what I play so it might have something to do with that.
Augury Owl doesn't propel you forward as well as the others early game as it doesn't draw cards nor put you up on mana. Yes it ensures mana, but at the cost of a draw step perhaps. Sylvan Ranger still lets you shuffle your library and get the land both effects that could compliment Oracle. Oracle of Mul Daya works cause we have so much draw power and that we shuffle the library so much. More than even RUG or BUG did if we have an active Pod.
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I was thinking about the swords too. Since I started playing this list really since I used to use Swords in place of Garruk in my post rotation NLB list I was running in December (very much like this deck but Bant colors). Without more permission support Sword of Body and Mind might be the best since it has the most effect on the board position. You can use it with a Tar Pit to come back from nothing. I guess arguably with enough discard SoFaF makes sense. In terms of removal colors SoWaP is the most useful for any list running Vengevine since Black removal is somewhat wasted on it, but the Sword is only good if it gets out quick. But in all honesty the more I thought about it the more I thought Pod basically does the same thing as Sword in the deck. It makes little guys bigger. It really depends on how many spots you can dedicate to that sort of thing.
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Beast Within sort of isn't the best answer since it removes the CA against us. 2 for 1ing ourselves isn't usually what we want. The fact that it can hit a Titan or an artifact/enchantment/planeswalker is good. If planeswalkers were that much of a pain I'd consider it perhaps. Gideon Jura is the only one really bugging me. I think though in Blue we have more options. And black makes killing Titans a lot easier than it is in like mono G or GW or GR. In most cases because of the generality we get from permission(or discard) we can afford a few specific answers to certain problem cards.
Beast Within against Valakut I don't particularly like. It isn't bad if you have enough ways to nullify the Titans anyway, but in that case why bother fighting through Beasts. The problem with that deck is usually we still need a clock (hence why Frost Titan is important). Fighting through Beasts is a big detriment.
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The biggest area I'm uncertain of in the lists is the 4 drop slot. This is a fundamental casting cost in the deck. It's both where we naturally ramp to early, and it's also where we can cast the Pod and Activate it on the same turn for the first time. This is the CMC where the most work is done Pod or not.
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I see what you mean about pod kindof replicating swords in a certain way. Even with that said maybe we need that redundancy in this deck. It also trades in a little power that pod lends us for just pure speed that the pod lacks. Without pod we have developed some consistent lists no doubt. The only thing I feel is lacking is some way to turn our creatures into real threats other than pod. NLB used some elspeths to accomplish this, and mythic did to a certain extent. Turning our mana dorks into threats is a great alternate win con. This idea was also a huge contributor to caw blade's dominance.
I agree with the 4 drop comment also. We need more 4 drops, but after M12 the decision on what to play here becomes a whole lot easier.
I have found any 4 drop without a relevant ability to the pod chain to be sub par. I tried thrun, and persecutor in a list where I stopped podding at 4, but in this list why would you stop to attack when you could just get a frost titan and win?
I like this list a lot better than the one you posted earlier. I would do a split between removal and permission but that's just me. The sideboard I don't know about but generally Frost Titan backed by Slime is about the best thing against Valakut. Then again this list is closer to what I play so it might have something to do with that.
Augury Owl doesn't propel you forward as well as the others early game as it doesn't draw cards nor put you up on mana. Yes it ensures mana, but at the cost of a draw step perhaps. Sylvan Ranger still lets you shuffle your library and get the land both effects that could compliment Oracle. Oracle of Mul Daya works cause we have so much draw power and that we shuffle the library so much. More than even RUG or BUG did if we have an active Pod.
Thanks. I played a Valakut match and won 2-1. It can definitely out race them if I get a bird -> cobra. I had Frost Titan out turn 3 in the first game, and I could have had it happen again in game 3, provided I had a 6 drop in hand. I only played the one match so far though, so I am not certain how consistent the deck is yet.
Ive gotten a few more games in against Valakut tonight. so far I am 1-2 (2/1) (1/2) (1/2). The biggest problem for me is Avenger of Zendikar. Even if I can hit Avenger with spot removal before EoT, it still leaves them with 7+ blockers to buy them time. I know a lot of people run Massacre Wurm to fight against Avenger, but I dont think running a singleton Wurm is really going to cut it. Are there any other options for BUG right now? I know there is a favorite instant of mine coming back in M12, but that is pretty counter productive to the deck. Aside from Despise -> Surgical Extraction I am at a loss of how to deal with it. Maybe more flyers?
I see what you mean about pod kindof replicating swords in a certain way. Even with that said maybe we need that redundancy in this deck. It also trades in a little power that pod lends us for just pure speed that the pod lacks. Without pod we have developed some consistent lists no doubt. The only thing I feel is lacking is some way to turn our creatures into real threats other than pod. NLB used some elspeths to accomplish this, and mythic did to a certain extent. Turning our mana dorks into threats is a great alternate win con. This idea was also a huge contributor to caw blade's dominance.
I agree with the 4 drop comment also. We need more 4 drops, but after M12 the decision on what to play here becomes a whole lot easier.
I have found any 4 drop without a relevant ability to the pod chain to be sub par. I tried thrun, and persecutor in a list where I stopped podding at 4, but in this list why would you stop to attack when you could just get a frost titan and win?
True, I've found a similar issue with 4 drops. Most are so much less impressive than Titans. Part of the reason Vengevine appealed to me was unless you are looking at a Titan across the board it's a free haste attack. Being able to push a clock is relevant. Depending when you Pod and the board state Vengevine can get 2 attacks in (Pod before attack phase to it, Pod after attack phase next turn).
As for the swords, what ultimately pushed them down in priority in this list for me was that both avenues are vulnerable to artifact hate. If I wanted a backup I think a Planeswalker would make the most sense. I've just had a hard time figuring out which one. You want something that gives CA probably, and the only one that really pumps our board works better with a swarm of creatures which we don't always have. Lilliana Vess looks ok, but I'm not sure she does enough (although her ultimate is very suitable). Perhaps a new green Planeswalker is in the the right vein.
Ive gotten a few more games in against Valakut tonight. so far I am 1-2 (2/1) (1/2) (1/2). The biggest problem for me is Avenger of Zendikar. Even if I can hit Avenger with spot removal before EoT, it still leaves them with 7+ blockers to buy them time. I know a lot of people run Massacre Wurm to fight against Avenger, but I dont think running a singleton Wurm is really going to cut it. Are there any other options for BUG right now? I know there is a favorite instant of mine coming back in M12, but that is pretty counter productive to the deck. Aside from Despise -> Surgical Extraction I am at a loss of how to deal with it. Maybe more flyers?
Avenger of Zendikar has always been a problem for lists without sweepers. Luckily they only play 1. GSZ definitely makes it feel like they have more. My best suggestion is beat them before they can land it. If they don't have it in hand they need 11 mana before they can play around Mana Leak. Permission is probably your best friend here. Flashfreeze obviously is good. If you can Memoricide their Titans having only to deal with Avenger is atleast more manageable. The biggest thing with the Valakut matchup is feeling the tempo.. You need to get in every attack you can, often going for damage over the long game, this means sometimes it makes more sense to attack with Creeping Tar Pit than cast spells. Vengevine is actually decent in this matchup. Vengevine decks have always had a problem with Valakut cause they sit there and try to chain and can't win fast enough, but they were only 1 turn too slow often.. Getting in there quick with Damage can go a long way even with the tiniest bit of disruption.
I've taken to a straight up disruption tactic to beat Valakut. i've got 3 Mana Leaks in game 1 and it doesn't feel like enough. I usually try to race by running up the pod chain and landing a Precursor Golem and podding that into a Grave Titan. Thats a very fast clock and if you can do that on turns 4 and 5 you'll win the damage race. The game 1 matchup is not that great though. If you can get a clutch Mana Leak in you're good. Similarly a clutch GffT can win also. But short of being able to disrupt at exactly the right time and then land a clock you'll have trouble. Its doable though. Its not worse then 45-55.
Game 2 and 3 are much much much better. I bring in at minimum 4 Flashfreeze and sometimes 1 or more Memoricide (usually only if I'm on the play). Having a big disruption package like that makes the matchup pretty easy. Valakut struggles to land any of its bombs through 7 counterspells with potential Memoricide backup. You don't even need a fast clock here, you can take a more controlling role which is alot more comfortable for this deck.
I am thinking starting to think that it is going to be hard to win against Valakut main deck no matter how you slice it. Aggro can be rough too, but I think the right main deck can beat aggro by causing them to overextend. I may just work my build to improve my chances at beating aggro, and then put everything I need to beat Valakut in my sideboard. I may have to punt game 1 to them, but at least I will beat everything else and have a solid plan for games 2 and 3.
Exarch Twin is the other big threat that I have no experience playing against. Maybe I will try to find a deck to play a few rounds against tonight.
well been tooling around here for sometime this is what I have for a list that has been doing pretty well in testing. I think im about ready to sleeve it up.
So I've finally put my list together on MODO, as well as real life and started running it through the paces. It's interesting to see how soft a lot of control lists are to Vengevine right now. I figured I'd see some Caw Go, decks that could stall. It's all classic UW and UB making this like a field day. I guess they don't expect it because Vengevine is bad against Valakut apparently. Tezzeret can be a bit more of a pain, but it depends a lot on the cards they are playing. Spellskite is good. I've found treating this like a control deck is pretty good, except I would value removal more in this matchup. I think perhaps the 2 Go For the Throats in my sideboard should be Dismember just to deal with annoying artifacts. Acidic Slime is good too, but in the case they keep you off the early game. I have to play this more. I've only faced Valakut once but I beat them. Game 1 was some Vengevine Beats into Acidic Slime/Frost Titan. Again it's interesting but I think the burn main has gone down. Game 2 doesn't matter as much with Memoricide.
I'm interested to see some Twin online but haven't yet. I haven't faced RDW yet either strangely, just a couple Tempered Steel decks and a Soul's Sister deck. I managed to handle the Tempered Steel deck (I don't think he got the draws). As for the Soul's Sister deck I don't get why people would play it online. He got the infinite Life combo on me one game, but I mean if I don't conceded right there, they have to manually go through the motions for quite a bit of time, and as long as you can stay alive (keep their Serra Ascendants, and Ajani's off the board) more likely than not they will run out of time before you. Like they get in a state with Zero creatures and I have Sheoldred and all my creatures. Definitely an example of a deck that doesn't translate online well. Atleast Twin kills you in the end.
I really like Nest Invaders. Obviously they test the grounds for Lotus Cobra, and even if they eat removal you usually get the ramp, but since you have no real attached value to them after the original use I find Turn 2 Nest Invader, Turn 3 Pod, 4 Life activate to Sea Gate Oracle is a reasonable opener. Or Turn 2 Nest Invader, Turn 3 Lotus Cobra drop fetch (same thing). If it was Turn 2 Lotus Cobra you might feel a bit more cheated going up to the Sea Gate Oracle (unless you were mana screwed, in which case you wouldn't be able to activate that turn anyway). Obviously there a ton of better Cobra openers, but there are a lot of times beyond that redundancy to 4 it actually works in it's own beneficial plays. I actually haven't found recurring Vengevine that difficult with this setup if it's what I'm after, all it takes usually is a Preordain, maybe a Sea Gate Oracle, even dropping a land late game them podding to an Sea Gate Oracle from a 2 drop to help you find the 2nd creature is very much doable. Basically if you have 1 reasonably costed creature in hand there are many ways to find a 2nd. And Sea Gate Oracle, Nest Invader, and Lotus Cobra all make this easier as the first digs and the other 2 often act like 1 CMC creatures(or less with a Cobra and a untapped land drop after).
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Oracle and Vengevine have been amazing so far. I know its been discussed to hell, but seeing how our 4cc spot is really the "tool box" so to speak; isn't there merit to having deceiver exarch in there? You can always go from 2to6cmc in 2 turns with no cards in hand, grabbing entomber exarch targeting the deceiver!
Thoughts about the 5c slot? Mitotic Slime seems lackluster and the more I play the deck, the less I see that it's not about sliming people on the t3, so I'm content with it being a 2of for now. Sea Gate Oracle has also been a star and I really want a 3rd one in there somehow. I can't believe people are still using Ragers in the 3 slot really.
5cc for me is either slime all the way. If I was running Nighthawk and ran into WW often, I might try out Malakir Bloodwitch. To me the 5cc slot is more like a utility stepping stone to get to the 6cc cards. Either I grab Mitotic Slime to give me some blockers, or I grab an Acidic Slime to blow something up if I need to.
BTW: I have gotten in 3 matches vs RDW with my anti aggro shell. 2-1 so far (0/2) (2/0) (2/1) and my losses have been for the most part due to bad draws. I can usually blow up enough threats and stabilize before they can get a kill off. Overgrown Battlement and Nest Invader have taken up my 2cc slots and are doing a good job at soaking up my opponents resources. I am still running mana birds in the 1 slot, and 3 main deck Baloths usually are what turn the tide for me. I didnt feel like Frost Titan was enough of a threat, so I went back to Grave Titan for a finisher. Its too early to tell if it is consistent, and I have yet to try it out against control and Exarch Twin. Once I get a few more matches in and settle on a sideboard I will get the list posted.
4 drops: I've been running Metapmorph and Abyssal Persecutor and Entomber Exarch just because if need be you have the tank in the Persecutor, Card advantage with Exarch, and just a copy with the Metamorph.
After playing dozens more games I have to say a weak point of the main list is aggressive artifact decks. I think the deck needs to run Dismember board instead of additional Go For the Throats.
Other observations. I haven't found Flashfreeze that useful. If you are getting to where that is relevant it's kind of late. Another hard counter might be better to hedge some other matchups too. It's obviously better than Mana Leak in some matchups but I'm not sure if it is that much better. Skinrender has been pretty poor. I also think even with the cantripping cause of the top end 25 lands is a must. I'm going to try shifting some numbers around. The deck works really well when it works, and not so much when it doesn't. I think land is probably the biggest issue. So I will see how that goes. There is just something not quite flowing sometimes, but I haven't pinpointed it.
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It might simply be the dependence of creatures on board. The biggest difference between something like RUG and BUG is that our digging is tied to having Pod and another creature in play. In so the deck suffers to a certain degree to the same things that would hurt a deck based around equipment. We can't run as nearly as efficient of a ramp deck, and even BUG and RUG hinged a lot on Jace. Not just for filtering but as a sort of inevitability engine.
Pod is a good aggressive plan, but it's a type of ramp plan. It has incremental advantage but it is still very linear. You can throw in a few silver bullets, but this isn't a format where Silver Bullets are going to win it for you. The other part of the plan has to be midrange. Planeswalker is ideal, since it dies to different stuff, but there isn't anything suitable in these colors. Atleast not yet. You don't even really want anything that costs more than 4, so I'm not sure if there is any sort of relief. Higher than 4 puts pressure on the curve. This is what led me to Vengevine, but the list can't quite put up the aggressive clock nor really benefit much from the recursion (outside of a defensive measure against aggro). In short I'm sort of stuck. I see the Birthing Pod potential, but it's missing something and plan A isn't quite consistent enough.
I posted this on the other thread but this is another different take. Instead of playing the Tempo game it tries to maximize the Creature overrun Vengevine angle.
as a 5 drop it can get dropped early from Lotus Cobra. its a single card engine that can win by itself easily. the -3 ability is particularly good in this kind of deck. the GGG cost is maybe a deal breaker since the lack of duallands makes color intense cards like this tough. is it worth reworking the mana base and making the deck in general greener to accomodate Garruk?
as a 5 drop it can get dropped early from Lotus Cobra. its a single card engine that can win by itself easily. the -3 ability is particularly good in this kind of deck. the GGG cost is maybe a deal breaker since the lack of duallands makes color intense cards like this tough. is it worth reworking the mana base and making the deck in general greener to accomodate Garruk?
Yeah the triple green is tough, but it is doable if you don't have any double black or double blue til your 6 drops. I like it as a replacement for Consecrated Sphinx. In order to fit it you can't really touch much in 5 (you still need atleast 2 creatures), so I dropped 1 of my 6 drops, and 1 of my 4 drops to fit in 2. Drawing 6 cards off Frost Titan is pretty sick. It is perfectly feasible when we Pod into stuff. This takes away the fear of sweepers, especially with Vengevine. This Garruk actually plays very well with Vengevine.
This card is a lot like Gideon Jura. It's good against Control and good against Aggro but sucks against Combo. It isn't bad against Twin but it is pretty useless against Valakut.
Anyway here is a list I've been trying along the original premise:
I did some more work on my aggressive build. I didn't want to get too stuck on expensive cards. One of the issues I've had with my birthing pod builds is if you aren't careful you just run out of threats. If the opponent just waits to kill the actual threats and are far enough along sliming a land doesn't do it. It seems always to be more consistent when you start laying down beats. Vengevine and Bloodghast both come back so you aren't ever at a shortage of offensive bodies.
I tried some Dredgevine lists but I think we are actually possibly the most reliable way to get Vengevines on the board with Podding from 3 drop to 4. Or in case of Deceiver Exarch 2-4. Vengeful Pharaoh actual becomes quite good because it puts something resilient in the 5 drop slot, so we can narrow it down. In so the top end can be kept light. In so I add an optional late game. Surprisingly the land issue isn't that bad. This list embraces the Pod a bit more in a combo sense. It's a lot like Dredgevine but I think it is more consistent. Without many midrange aggressive decks this deck can stall against most aggro, and it can lay beats against most other decks... sideboard is probably the typical anti combo stuff.. Thoughts?
I had problems with my mana base, but I think that it's relatively better now. My theory on BUG is that I want the blue to smooth out the rest of my deck.
Making room for 4x Preordain and 3x Sea Gate Oracle is awesome, and Frost Titan is... well... gravy.
Here's the thing though, I hate leaving up 2 mana. I like to optimize my turns, and when I have to leave up 2 mana to leak, it's often a large speed bump in my development. I'd rather leave up spell pierce or something. I mean, we have removal for creatures, why not use spell pierce over mana leak?
Either way, I think I'm cutting my counterspells and returning to a tap out format.
I'm not completely down with the whole Vengevine thing. I still like taking tempo with my four drop of choice, Entomber Exarch.
Valakut: Exarch takes a key land, a ramp spell, or a Zenith/Trap.
Mono Red: If I can play a creature that steals a burn spell AND requires another burn spell to kill, I'm cool with that.
I went away from the toolbox build to make the deck more consistent. The Pod chain from 4-6 is pretty good. You have Entomber Exarch to strip removal/counters so that Frost Titan lives and doesn't get countered, Acidic Slime to kill a land, and Frost Titan to take out another land.
All this land destruction and discard makes it really hard for them to deal with Frosty.
If you don’t draw Pod, you still have a good chance of going t3 Entomber, t4 Slime, and t5 Titan because of all the mana ramp and multiple copies of each creature.
Phantasmal Image is the lol because you can sac Birds to Pod and get Titans and Slimes.
I really like the mana base because you definitely want two Swamps and two Islands. Some games you won't draw a UB dual land or they get Edged so you need to be able to cast your double black and double blue spells with fetchlands alone. You can count on mana creatures but it's risky because they die easily.
I like this list a lot better than the one you posted earlier. I would do a split between removal and permission but that's just me. The sideboard I don't know about but generally Frost Titan backed by Slime is about the best thing against Valakut. Then again this list is closer to what I play so it might have something to do with that.
Augury Owl doesn't propel you forward as well as the others early game as it doesn't draw cards nor put you up on mana. Yes it ensures mana, but at the cost of a draw step perhaps. Sylvan Ranger still lets you shuffle your library and get the land both effects that could compliment Oracle. Oracle of Mul Daya works cause we have so much draw power and that we shuffle the library so much. More than even RUG or BUG did if we have an active Pod.
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I was thinking about the swords too. Since I started playing this list really since I used to use Swords in place of Garruk in my post rotation NLB list I was running in December (very much like this deck but Bant colors). Without more permission support Sword of Body and Mind might be the best since it has the most effect on the board position. You can use it with a Tar Pit to come back from nothing. I guess arguably with enough discard SoFaF makes sense. In terms of removal colors SoWaP is the most useful for any list running Vengevine since Black removal is somewhat wasted on it, but the Sword is only good if it gets out quick. But in all honesty the more I thought about it the more I thought Pod basically does the same thing as Sword in the deck. It makes little guys bigger. It really depends on how many spots you can dedicate to that sort of thing.
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Beast Within sort of isn't the best answer since it removes the CA against us. 2 for 1ing ourselves isn't usually what we want. The fact that it can hit a Titan or an artifact/enchantment/planeswalker is good. If planeswalkers were that much of a pain I'd consider it perhaps. Gideon Jura is the only one really bugging me. I think though in Blue we have more options. And black makes killing Titans a lot easier than it is in like mono G or GW or GR. In most cases because of the generality we get from permission(or discard) we can afford a few specific answers to certain problem cards.
Beast Within against Valakut I don't particularly like. It isn't bad if you have enough ways to nullify the Titans anyway, but in that case why bother fighting through Beasts. The problem with that deck is usually we still need a clock (hence why Frost Titan is important). Fighting through Beasts is a big detriment.
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The biggest area I'm uncertain of in the lists is the 4 drop slot. This is a fundamental casting cost in the deck. It's both where we naturally ramp to early, and it's also where we can cast the Pod and Activate it on the same turn for the first time. This is the CMC where the most work is done Pod or not.
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I agree with the 4 drop comment also. We need more 4 drops, but after M12 the decision on what to play here becomes a whole lot easier.
I have found any 4 drop without a relevant ability to the pod chain to be sub par. I tried thrun, and persecutor in a list where I stopped podding at 4, but in this list why would you stop to attack when you could just get a frost titan and win?
Here's the latest spawn I'm testing with updated sb!
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Overgrown Battlement
2x Viridian Emissary
3x Sea Gate Oracle
3x Acidic Slime
2x Frost Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Obstinate Baloth
2x Vengevine
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Mana Leak
4x Spreading Seas
3x Birthing Pod
Land(25):
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Terramorphic Expanse
4x Halimar Depths
8x Forest
5x Island
2x Obstinate Baloth
1x Mana Leak
3x Dispel
4x Combust
2x Mountain
1x Sylvok Replica
1x Trinket Mage
1x Sylvok Lifestaff
If any of you wanna play on modo feel free to let me know!
Thanks. I played a Valakut match and won 2-1. It can definitely out race them if I get a bird -> cobra. I had Frost Titan out turn 3 in the first game, and I could have had it happen again in game 3, provided I had a 6 drop in hand. I only played the one match so far though, so I am not certain how consistent the deck is yet.
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True, I've found a similar issue with 4 drops. Most are so much less impressive than Titans. Part of the reason Vengevine appealed to me was unless you are looking at a Titan across the board it's a free haste attack. Being able to push a clock is relevant. Depending when you Pod and the board state Vengevine can get 2 attacks in (Pod before attack phase to it, Pod after attack phase next turn).
As for the swords, what ultimately pushed them down in priority in this list for me was that both avenues are vulnerable to artifact hate. If I wanted a backup I think a Planeswalker would make the most sense. I've just had a hard time figuring out which one. You want something that gives CA probably, and the only one that really pumps our board works better with a swarm of creatures which we don't always have. Lilliana Vess looks ok, but I'm not sure she does enough (although her ultimate is very suitable). Perhaps a new green Planeswalker is in the the right vein.
Avenger of Zendikar has always been a problem for lists without sweepers. Luckily they only play 1. GSZ definitely makes it feel like they have more. My best suggestion is beat them before they can land it. If they don't have it in hand they need 11 mana before they can play around Mana Leak. Permission is probably your best friend here. Flashfreeze obviously is good. If you can Memoricide their Titans having only to deal with Avenger is atleast more manageable. The biggest thing with the Valakut matchup is feeling the tempo.. You need to get in every attack you can, often going for damage over the long game, this means sometimes it makes more sense to attack with Creeping Tar Pit than cast spells. Vengevine is actually decent in this matchup. Vengevine decks have always had a problem with Valakut cause they sit there and try to chain and can't win fast enough, but they were only 1 turn too slow often.. Getting in there quick with Damage can go a long way even with the tiniest bit of disruption.
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Game 2 and 3 are much much much better. I bring in at minimum 4 Flashfreeze and sometimes 1 or more Memoricide (usually only if I'm on the play). Having a big disruption package like that makes the matchup pretty easy. Valakut struggles to land any of its bombs through 7 counterspells with potential Memoricide backup. You don't even need a fast clock here, you can take a more controlling role which is alot more comfortable for this deck.
Exarch Twin is the other big threat that I have no experience playing against. Maybe I will try to find a deck to play a few rounds against tonight.
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Tech for you guys who want sweepers for little dudes: Consume the Meek has been working out very well for me.
still working on the sideboard! dont really know for sure how im going to take that. What do you guys think?
I'm interested to see some Twin online but haven't yet. I haven't faced RDW yet either strangely, just a couple Tempered Steel decks and a Soul's Sister deck. I managed to handle the Tempered Steel deck (I don't think he got the draws). As for the Soul's Sister deck I don't get why people would play it online. He got the infinite Life combo on me one game, but I mean if I don't conceded right there, they have to manually go through the motions for quite a bit of time, and as long as you can stay alive (keep their Serra Ascendants, and Ajani's off the board) more likely than not they will run out of time before you. Like they get in a state with Zero creatures and I have Sheoldred and all my creatures. Definitely an example of a deck that doesn't translate online well. Atleast Twin kills you in the end.
I really like Nest Invaders. Obviously they test the grounds for Lotus Cobra, and even if they eat removal you usually get the ramp, but since you have no real attached value to them after the original use I find Turn 2 Nest Invader, Turn 3 Pod, 4 Life activate to Sea Gate Oracle is a reasonable opener. Or Turn 2 Nest Invader, Turn 3 Lotus Cobra drop fetch (same thing). If it was Turn 2 Lotus Cobra you might feel a bit more cheated going up to the Sea Gate Oracle (unless you were mana screwed, in which case you wouldn't be able to activate that turn anyway). Obviously there a ton of better Cobra openers, but there are a lot of times beyond that redundancy to 4 it actually works in it's own beneficial plays. I actually haven't found recurring Vengevine that difficult with this setup if it's what I'm after, all it takes usually is a Preordain, maybe a Sea Gate Oracle, even dropping a land late game them podding to an Sea Gate Oracle from a 2 drop to help you find the 2nd creature is very much doable. Basically if you have 1 reasonably costed creature in hand there are many ways to find a 2nd. And Sea Gate Oracle, Nest Invader, and Lotus Cobra all make this easier as the first digs and the other 2 often act like 1 CMC creatures(or less with a Cobra and a untapped land drop after).
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
3x Birthing Pod
2x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1x Prophetic Prism
2x Black Sun's Zenith
CMC 2
4x Lotus Cobra
2x Spellskite
CMC 3
1x Pilgrims Eye
1x Sylvok Replica
1x Phyrexian Rager
3x Trinket Mage
1x Voltaic Key
1x Basilisk Collar
1x Hex Parasite
CMC 4
2x Entomber Exarch
2x Skinrender
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
CMC 5
2x Acidic Slime
1x Precursor Golem
CMC 6
2x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Grave Titan
1x Frost Titan
2x Halimar Depths
2x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
6x Swamp
6x Forest
1x Island
What are your guy's thoughts on this list?
The lands are bad. You barely have enough black splashed to safely drop a Tezz. And only 25 lands is enough; 26 sounds like one too many.
You should have something like;
4x Darkslick Shores
3x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Misty Rainfores
4x Verdant Catacombs
6x Forest
3x Islands
1x Swamp
Here's an updated list!
2x Viridian Emissary
2x Nest Invader
3x Lotus Cobra
1x Deceiver Exarch
2x Sea Gate Oracle
1x Obstinate Baloth
2x Vengevine
1x Entomber Exarch
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Acidic Slime
2x Frost Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
4x Mana Leak
4x Preordain
2x Go for the Throat
3x Birthing Pod
Land(25):
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Darkslick Shores
6x Forest
2x Island
2x Swamp
Oracle and Vengevine have been amazing so far. I know its been discussed to hell, but seeing how our 4cc spot is really the "tool box" so to speak; isn't there merit to having deceiver exarch in there? You can always go from 2to6cmc in 2 turns with no cards in hand, grabbing entomber exarch targeting the deceiver!
Thoughts about the 5c slot? Mitotic Slime seems lackluster and the more I play the deck, the less I see that it's not about sliming people on the t3, so I'm content with it being a 2of for now. Sea Gate Oracle has also been a star and I really want a 3rd one in there somehow. I can't believe people are still using Ragers in the 3 slot really.
BTW: I have gotten in 3 matches vs RDW with my anti aggro shell. 2-1 so far (0/2) (2/0) (2/1) and my losses have been for the most part due to bad draws. I can usually blow up enough threats and stabilize before they can get a kill off. Overgrown Battlement and Nest Invader have taken up my 2cc slots and are doing a good job at soaking up my opponents resources. I am still running mana birds in the 1 slot, and 3 main deck Baloths usually are what turn the tide for me. I didnt feel like Frost Titan was enough of a threat, so I went back to Grave Titan for a finisher. Its too early to tell if it is consistent, and I have yet to try it out against control and Exarch Twin. Once I get a few more matches in and settle on a sideboard I will get the list posted.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Other observations. I haven't found Flashfreeze that useful. If you are getting to where that is relevant it's kind of late. Another hard counter might be better to hedge some other matchups too. It's obviously better than Mana Leak in some matchups but I'm not sure if it is that much better. Skinrender has been pretty poor. I also think even with the cantripping cause of the top end 25 lands is a must. I'm going to try shifting some numbers around. The deck works really well when it works, and not so much when it doesn't. I think land is probably the biggest issue. So I will see how that goes. There is just something not quite flowing sometimes, but I haven't pinpointed it.
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It might simply be the dependence of creatures on board. The biggest difference between something like RUG and BUG is that our digging is tied to having Pod and another creature in play. In so the deck suffers to a certain degree to the same things that would hurt a deck based around equipment. We can't run as nearly as efficient of a ramp deck, and even BUG and RUG hinged a lot on Jace. Not just for filtering but as a sort of inevitability engine.
Pod is a good aggressive plan, but it's a type of ramp plan. It has incremental advantage but it is still very linear. You can throw in a few silver bullets, but this isn't a format where Silver Bullets are going to win it for you. The other part of the plan has to be midrange. Planeswalker is ideal, since it dies to different stuff, but there isn't anything suitable in these colors. Atleast not yet. You don't even really want anything that costs more than 4, so I'm not sure if there is any sort of relief. Higher than 4 puts pressure on the curve. This is what led me to Vengevine, but the list can't quite put up the aggressive clock nor really benefit much from the recursion (outside of a defensive measure against aggro). In short I'm sort of stuck. I see the Birthing Pod potential, but it's missing something and plan A isn't quite consistent enough.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Creeping Tar Pit
6 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Viridian Emissary
4 Bloodghast
2 Sylvan Ranger
4 Sea Gate Oracle
4 Vengevine
4 Go For the Throat
3 Hunter's Insight
4 Birthing Pod
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
I have no board yet.. just an idea.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
as a 5 drop it can get dropped early from Lotus Cobra. its a single card engine that can win by itself easily. the -3 ability is particularly good in this kind of deck. the GGG cost is maybe a deal breaker since the lack of duallands makes color intense cards like this tough. is it worth reworking the mana base and making the deck in general greener to accomodate Garruk?
Yeah the triple green is tough, but it is doable if you don't have any double black or double blue til your 6 drops. I like it as a replacement for Consecrated Sphinx. In order to fit it you can't really touch much in 5 (you still need atleast 2 creatures), so I dropped 1 of my 6 drops, and 1 of my 4 drops to fit in 2. Drawing 6 cards off Frost Titan is pretty sick. It is perfectly feasible when we Pod into stuff. This takes away the fear of sweepers, especially with Vengevine. This Garruk actually plays very well with Vengevine.
This card is a lot like Gideon Jura. It's good against Control and good against Aggro but sucks against Combo. It isn't bad against Twin but it is pretty useless against Valakut.
Anyway here is a list I've been trying along the original premise:
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Creeping Tar Pit
7 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
Creatures(20):
4 Lotus Cobra
3 Nest Invader
4 Sea Gate Oracle
3 Vengevine
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Acidic Slime
2 Frost Titan
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
4 Preordain
3 Mana Leak
2 Go for the Throat
1 Dismember
3 Birthing Pod
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Nature's Claim
1 Dismember
1 Mana Leak
3 Spellskite
3 Memoricide
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Skinrender
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Mana Base looks like G:15, U:13, B:13. Not sure if the Skinrenders are supportable in the board.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I tried some Dredgevine lists but I think we are actually possibly the most reliable way to get Vengevines on the board with Podding from 3 drop to 4. Or in case of Deceiver Exarch 2-4. Vengeful Pharaoh actual becomes quite good because it puts something resilient in the 5 drop slot, so we can narrow it down. In so the top end can be kept light. In so I add an optional late game. Surprisingly the land issue isn't that bad. This list embraces the Pod a bit more in a combo sense. It's a lot like Dredgevine but I think it is more consistent. Without many midrange aggressive decks this deck can stall against most aggro, and it can lay beats against most other decks... sideboard is probably the typical anti combo stuff.. Thoughts?
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Creeping Tar Pit
6 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Island
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Bloodghast
2 Viridian Emissary
2 Sylvan Ranger
3 Sea Gate Oracle
2 Deceiver Exarch
4 Vengevine
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Grave Titan
4 Go For the Throat
2 Hunter's Insight
4 Birthing Pod
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Making room for 4x Preordain and 3x Sea Gate Oracle is awesome, and Frost Titan is... well... gravy.
Here's the thing though, I hate leaving up 2 mana. I like to optimize my turns, and when I have to leave up 2 mana to leak, it's often a large speed bump in my development. I'd rather leave up spell pierce or something. I mean, we have removal for creatures, why not use spell pierce over mana leak?
Either way, I think I'm cutting my counterspells and returning to a tap out format.
I'm not completely down with the whole Vengevine thing. I still like taking tempo with my four drop of choice, Entomber Exarch.
Valakut: Exarch takes a key land, a ramp spell, or a Zenith/Trap.
Mono Red: If I can play a creature that steals a burn spell AND requires another burn spell to kill, I'm cool with that.
23 Land
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Terramorphic Expanse
3x Drowned Catacombs
6x Forest
3x Swamp
2x Island
13 Spell
4x Birthing Pod
4x Preordain
3x Go for the Throat
2x Dismember
23 Creatures
3x Lotus Cobra
3x Viridian Emissary
4x Sea Gate Oracle
1x Sylvok Replica
3x Entomber Exarch
1x Skinrender
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Acidic Slime
1x Mitotic Slime
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Grave Titan
1x Frost Titan
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
Sideboard:
2x Perilous Myr
3x Consume the Meek
3x Spreading Seas
2x Obstinate Baloth
1x Viridian Corrupter
1x Massacre Wurm
1x Brutalizer Exarch
2x Beast Within
After winning less than 50% of my matches with GB and GWB, I was inspired by the Frost Titan and Acidic Slime interaction from RUG Twin Pod lists.
I tried out the combo in a BUG shell and I finally started winning again with a Pod deck running black So far, I’m 12-3 with this deck.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
1 Viridian Emissary
1 Nest Invader
1 Phantasmal Image
3 Sea Gate Oracle
3 Entomber Exarch
3 Acidic Slime
4 Frost Titan
Spells (11)
4 Preordain
1 Go for the Throat
1 Doom Blade
1 Dismember
4 Birthing Pod
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Darkslick Shores
6 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Go for the Throat
1 Doom Blade
4 Obstinate Baloth
2 Skinrender
2 Jace Beleren
2 Mana Leak
2 Naturalize
1 Sylvok Replica
I blogged about the deck here if you want more information about the deck, how I built it, and which decks I played against:
BUG Pod With 4 Frost Titans
I went away from the toolbox build to make the deck more consistent. The Pod chain from 4-6 is pretty good. You have Entomber Exarch to strip removal/counters so that Frost Titan lives and doesn't get countered, Acidic Slime to kill a land, and Frost Titan to take out another land.
All this land destruction and discard makes it really hard for them to deal with Frosty.
If you don’t draw Pod, you still have a good chance of going t3 Entomber, t4 Slime, and t5 Titan because of all the mana ramp and multiple copies of each creature.
Phantasmal Image is the lol because you can sac Birds to Pod and get Titans and Slimes.
I really like the mana base because you definitely want two Swamps and two Islands. Some games you won't draw a UB dual land or they get Edged so you need to be able to cast your double black and double blue spells with fetchlands alone. You can count on mana creatures but it's risky because they die easily.