Geofroley-
Yes, that's one way to use Beastmaster Ascension. You can either wait until you have 7 guys on the field and then drop it, as a sort of mega-Overrun type of deal (sans trample but higher buffs), or play more conservatively and swing a little at a time depending on what the opponent has on the field. What I like to do is usually plant it when there's 4 or 5 creatures on my side, so I can swing all-out, have 1 or 2 guys die, and still have it ready to go off next turn, especially with a Vengevine at the ready.
Psy-
Well, I can personally attest to A-Zone being simply amazing with Monument in the lategame, but if you just want to aggro-curve out, you can definitely run Eldrazi Monument with only a set of Invaders and Predators to feed it; this is generally fine. As long as you're running 8 manadorks and 4 Khalni Garden, it really shouldn't be too bad, though you'll just have slightly less assurance for the lategame, which is generally bad for aggro anyway, particularly against control.
Tajuru Preserver, in my opinion, is mainly an out against Eldrazi builds, be it G/x Eldrazi Ramp or the occasionally seen Mono-White Eldrazi Control. It also has some utility against D-Force. Builds that ramp or sweep into a legendary fatboy like Ulamog or Kozilek are still viable for us to race and beat, so I don't think Preserver will be the first sideboarding choice. In my experience against Valakut Ramp, as well, racing them is a high priority and actually quite possible, especially if you go on the play. What's your current sideboard look like, if any?
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Psy- Tajuru Preserver, in my opinion, is mainly an out against Eldrazi builds, be it G/x Eldrazi Ramp or the occasionally seen Mono-White Eldrazi Control. It also has some utility against D-Force. Builds that ramp or sweep into a legendary fatboy like Ulamog or Kozilek are still viable for us to race and beat, so I don't think Preserver will be the first sideboarding choice. In my experience against Valakut Ramp, as well, racing them is a high priority and actually quite possible, especially if you go on the play. What's your current sideboard look like, if any?
Right now I'm not 100% sure what I'm going to have for a SB; a lot will matter and what I can get my hands on once I arrive at the store.
Right now I'm pretty sure that I'll put in 3 Pithing Needle to help against PWs (until they rotate out at the end of the month); 3 Leyline of Vitality 2 Summoning Traps and then from that point forward I'm up in the air as to what to add.
Well, I can personally attest to A-Zone being simply amazing with Monument in the lategame, but if you just want to aggro-curve out, you can definitely run Eldrazi Monument with only a set of Invaders and Predators to feed it; this is generally fine. As long as you're running 8 manadorks and 4 Khalni Garden, it really shouldn't be too bad, though you'll just have slightly less assurance for the lategame, which is generally bad for aggro anyway, particularly against control.
I guess I'm trying to figure out what to remove from your build to play the 4 Vengevines. I have no trouble being aggro as when I 1st started playing back in Urza's saga I played Elves and then when I got back into playing 2 years ago; I started playing GW little kid before I went with Bant and then G/B Elves. So the Veng's just sorta seem to fit my sytle. But again this is without any testing.
Psy
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Aura, really bad creature and expensive creature (more than 15$ a playset is alot for me)
This deck is pretty budget i dont know what to change to make it better... Plz post your comment to helps me.
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How do you guys feel about the Terra Stomper vs Khalni Hydra debate? In my mind I see them competing- I am personally for the hydra but the stomper is effective vs Jace decks for the most part, thoughts?
In other news, Sony launched the $299 Playstation 3 Slim, Microsoft lowered the price of the Xbox 360 Elite to $299 and Nintendo is expected to lower the Wii to $200 before the end of the month.
Keep these prices in mind the next time your Magic shopping cart approaches the $300 mark.
How do you guys feel about the Terra Stomper vs Khalni Hydra debate? In my mind I see them competing- I am personally for the hydra but the stomper is effective vs Jace decks for the most part, thoughts?
Both have their values and limitations.
Terra Stomper
It's uncounterable, a major advantage against control decks. Also as trample to trickle more damage through. Big body also. Nothing bad really about it.
Khalni Hydra
Has pseudo affinity for green creatures, thus reducing costs. Also has trample and a fat body. It's very similar to Stomper, but is counterable.
Therefore, Stomper IMO is better than the hydra.
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Of the two I probably lean toward the Hydra because he can come down early with his greenfinity. 2-3 green creatures in play early is part of the gameplan so the hydra curves in nicely. Obviously susceptible to being countered as well as removal but a solid MGA build that sees counters used on it's fatties won't be too upset if overrun/garruk/stampede and monument are available and your opponent is a counterspell down.
Stomper despite his bigger bottom and trample loses out to Gaea's Revenge if you need to stick a fatty in a control match as he dodges the other spot removal they will undoubtedly be packing and can beat them to the punch on sweeping with his hasty body.
Unanswered either creature should win you the match so make the call on your meta really...
Psy-
I would say, going blind into a meta, you would probably want 'Vines even over the A-Zones. Reason being is that they definitely add more to the aggro curve whereas A-Zones are more versus Control and with the long game in mind (and also to freak the opponent out, at times). Not that 'Vine does any worse against Control mind you, but he's more of an 'out of the gates' kind of creature so I would use him over A-Zone in an unknown meta, as much as I love the enchantment. Not 100% sure about using him with the Shaman engine though.
Needles are good versus PW's indeed, and even manlands in a pinch. Leyline is good versus decks that rely on Cunning Sparkmage to take out your dorks, so it's not a terrible choice if you see that guy game one (Boros, Naya, etc). I would actually recommend some form of artifact/enchantment removal as well, like maybe Acidic Slime or even good ol' Naturalize. A playset of Obstinate Baloth will also help immensely versus RDW or anyone ballsy enough to still use Blightning on you--that'll teach 'em.
kakwann-
Actually, your current list looks decent, and rather similar to the 'budget' version I make for people unwilling to spend some extra cash on a Monument or Cobras. Treespeaker over Elves only if you know the meta, in my opinion. But other than that your decklist actually looks fine as is when going 'blind', mainboard anyway. Obviously the sideboard could be tweaked according to what you are up against.
mexicanswateam-
Oh man, a comparison versus two creatures I relatively despise?! Count me in! Terra Stomper vs. Khalni Hydra...
Let's look at the Hydra first. He's big. He's green. Wait, so is Stomper. But whatever... the main selling point of this guy is that he gets cheaper the more green guys you have out (yeah, even that Plant token you got there from the Garden...) meaning he can touch the ground as early as turn 3 if you've planted two manadorks there before...well, a Treespeaker being one of them. So, he costs GGGGGG when you've got two guys out, and possibly even less depending. Even if you draw into absolutely no manadorks somehow, getting this guy out sometime midgame can actually be a reality. If you got a lot of guys out lategame, casting him can even be free, but how much more do you need to win with a 'lot of guys'?
Stomper on the other hand has no such discount. Stat-wise, he's pretty much exactly the same outside of the whole 'can't be countered' clause. I do feel that this adds some viability in that it strips an option from UW (and Pyro, Runeflare perhaps, Poly, Mythic Bant, etc...) which is to remove him with countermagic. In a vacuum, Hydra certainly looks better, due to the greenffinity-type clause. But the ideal Mono-Green fatties setup has two manadorks out by turn 3 to begin with, and it's just as easy to get out a Stomper with 3 Forests, Birds of Paradise, and a leveled Joraga Treespeaker (or Cobra) as it is to cast Hydra. Hydra is painful to cast post-Day of Judgment since his conditional discount probably isn't applying very well (unless you had a Mitotic on the field, in which case you should be pretty happy anyway), whereas Stomper pretty much will force them to have to spend actual removal since they can't simply stuff him with Mana Leak or Flashfreeze. It's almost like this guy is meant to stand alone and just dare your opponent to use their removal.
I like to call turn 3 the 'magic' turn for us. It's where the magic happens. It's when the opponent says 'Oh ☺☺☺☺'. The question is, how many guys are we usually going to have on the field more often than not during the untap phase of T3? Usually... around... 2, maybe 3+ for people who run Khalni Garden and Nest Invader (and the Spawn he makes isn't green, either)...?
...How many of them will be manadorks?
If you can answer that question, based on your meta, that may swing the game in either Hydra or Stomper's favor a little more. Provided you don't miss any land drops on turn 3, you can cast Terra Stomper with a Llanowar/BoP/Hierarch and Joraga Treespeaker. You can cast Khalni Hydra with ...well, about the same setup of creatures, so in reality it isn't actually that much faster.
If it is, like T1 manadork, T2 TRIPLE MANADORK, etc... you are probably overextending. In which case just run BMA on T3, the poor bastard will have to spend an O-ring to not die to 'just' manadorks.
Come turn four or so, when you get more guys, then Hydra starts to slowly look more attractive as a beater than Stomper.
Strangely, I'm going to have to go with the big dinosaur by just a slight margin.
Psy-
I would say, going blind into a meta, you would probably want 'Vines even over the A-Zones. Reason being is that they definitely add more to the aggro curve whereas A-Zones are more versus Control and with the long game in mind (and also to freak the opponent out, at times). Not that 'Vine does any worse against Control mind you, but he's more of an 'out of the gates' kind of creature so I would use him over A-Zone in an unknown meta, as much as I love the enchantment. Not 100% sure about using him with the Shaman engine though.
Needles are good versus PW's indeed, and even manlands in a pinch. Leyline is good versus decks that rely on Cunning Sparkmage to take out your dorks, so it's not a terrible choice if you see that guy game one (Boros, Naya, etc). I would actually recommend some form of artifact/enchantment removal as well, like maybe Acidic Slime or even good ol' Naturalize. A playset of Obstinate Baloth will also help immensely versus RDW or anyone ballsy enough to still use Blightning on you--that'll teach 'em.
I have a play set of Obstinate Baloths that should be arriving today in the mail. I was also planning on bring Naturalize's and Acidic's; and possibly even some Mitotic Slime to help against board control decks running board sweepers.
I'm hoping to get there a little early and try to see what people are playing and then start to make the SB before everything starts. I look at the next few weeks for me as figuring out what is going to be played in my meta and then adjusting the deck and side board from there. It is similar to what I did last time once I switched from playing G/W Little Kid and started playing Bant. The Cruel Control players started to really hate playing me; because even in game 2 and 3; I had the SB answers to give me the edge against them.
Psy
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Psy-
Strangely, I'm going to have to go with the big dinosaur by just a slight margin.
I like your analysis but want to add a little, also I don't know which one is the "dinosaur".
Mostly I agree with you, when facing U/W. I don't know about the rest of you but my meta isnt JUST U/W. I face red, black, and green ramp more often than not and against them the hydra really shines. Against control (with counters and DoJ) Terra Stomper is better by a slight margin, but against anything else the hydra is much better. Thats why I use the Hydra in my list as a 3-of, because against the majority of my opponents he is simply better! Many opponents dont have sweepers so dropping 5 creatures and then a Hydra for damn near free isn't suicide, it's game. When they have sweepers just use him to either draw out sweepers with a Gaea's Revenge in hand or to draw counters away from Overwhelming.
Good luck with wichever you choose!
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Terra Stomper would be the dinosaur. He would have said the big hydra if he was talking about our resident big Khalni snake.
Now that we're finally allowed to discuss SoM, I was wondering what everyone's take was on two new cards. The new Intimidate worm and Genesis Wave.
The Intimidate worm can most likely end a match when he hits the board, unless you're playing against other mono green decks, and It seems that even without a pump spell, swinging after a potential stand off for around 8 - 12 seems like a good idea. That is, around 4-6 other creatures I'm talking about.
And with Genesis Wave, it could give us a LOT of late game tempo. All we would need is 8 mana to fetch 5 deep and hit every permanent and pop it into play. Running it as a 2 of in a 60 card deck would mean that it probably wouldn't hit the other. Even if you only hit 5 land with that, you've filtered through 5 land and stopped a DForce in its tracks. In a best case senario, you'd hit a win con or two and a couple creatures. For instance, Hitting say, Eldrazi Monument, along with Garruk Wildspeaker, Birds of Paradise, Nest Invader, and a Forest. For 8 mana you get an INCREDIBLY good field. Even after a Day, this would put you back in winning position. The threat potential of this is incredible. Since we don't actually run spells (Besides this new sorcery), playing it as a 2 of wouldn't be too bad in my opinion since playing it essentially means that we get 1+ free cards. Playing it for 8cc seems to be the most reasonable however. Simply because, digging down 5 cards is great already. Playing them for free if they're at or below 5cc is another.
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I was thinking about how the mono green archetype was going to look post scars, and I feel that mono green elves seem really good, because of the Untap Elf and Ezuri. Give your guys either psuedovigilance, or use them to pump mana into an overrun off of Ezuri. So here's my list.
I was thinking this could play Genesis Wave as a one or two of because it seems pretty busted when you go cast for 8 get 5 permanents from your deck. I was thinking you could cut one monument and one copperhorn scout (untap guy). I don't know if I like cutting the untap guy because his abilities stack which make it that much better. Ezuri, in my opinion can function as almost a second monument with the regenerate and overrun abilities. Thoughts?
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My point between Stomper and the Hydra was that on turn 3, which is one of the most important turns in the game for us aggro, they basically cost the same more often than not. On turns 4 and 5, when you really should be killing the opponent anyway, that's when Hydra starts to look better.
Big green stompy's main problems/complaints tend to stem from sweepers, which is why I put Stomper ahead by a very small margin. Versus an opponent without such removal, then yes, Hydra is generally going to be more of a problem for them.
And for the record, I choose neither. I've often won on two lands, preferring to keep my mana curve tight with the highest cmc spell at 5, which is already pushing it imo. Losing to manascrew isn't fun, so I prefer to minimize the impact of that particular circumstance as much as possible.
I predict great things for Genesis Wave. Not necessarily in Standard, but certainly in EDH and perhaps even some of the more competitive eternal formats. This seems to be more of a build-around card at first glance, but is so amazingly useful no matter how I look at it, so don't hold me to that.
When I first saw the Intimidate guy, I was like "OMFG AWSM!!!11" until I realized how hard they were pushing artifact creatures like Myr. That's one of the first 4/4's for 5 I've liked in awhile (besides Mitotic to an extent) because of the way he can possibly affect the boardstate, but I think it'll really depend on the soon-to-be-chaotic meta to determine his worth in MGA.
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I don't see alot of potential in Genesis Wave. Not that what you said dosen't sound good, just that I'm not sure It's worth 8 mana, and the card sucks if played below 7 mana. I'm not convinced that I'll get anything better than my Gaea's Revenge until I spend 9 or 10 mana on this thing....If my deck got to that kind of mana reliably before winning I'd run Terrastadon or something.
As for the Wurm, he might be a reasonable replacement for MotWH in one of my one-of slots but I don't see him being a staple of the deck. At the same mana he can't replace Overwhelming or Monument because he dosen't add power, just evasion. This by no means makes him bad, just can't go in a Win-con slot and I'm not sure he's better than the other mid-range creatures we have. Especially so considering we may need to find room for Acidic Slime or Acid-web Spider MB soon...so many artifacts....
EDIT: Speaking of Win-cons any thoughts on Asceticism? Looks awesome but is it worth losing a Monument or Overwhelming for?
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So I'm kinda new around here. I usually just watch the Rumor Mill, but this time I thought I'd make a real post in a real deck thread. The reason being, I recently finished a summer-long stint of FNM with some friends, and I felt like sharing the deck that brought me so much satisfaction during that time. I'm taking a break from FNM and really everything but casual/release events for a while, and I feel it's time to move on to new ideas, so I won't be playing this exact deck again. It was played 4 times at FNM, three times by yours truly and once by a friend, and each time it went 4-1 (4th, 4th, 5th, 5th).
It should probably be noted that it started as an Elf deck with Khalni Hydra and Momentous Fall, and evolved into something more interesting over time. It could doubtless use improvements on several fronts, but it worked well enough for a leisurely time at FNM. Here are some explanations for card choices, although most of them should be obvious:
4 Llanowar Elves - part of the original elf engine. Powers up archdruids and gets three-drops on turn 2.
4 Arbor Elf - 5-8 llanowars to make sure you get one in the opening hand.
4 Elvish Archdruid - drop choice #3 on turn 2. Provides fuel for Wolfbriars and makes the other elves useful in attacking. Its actual best use is a decoy for people who are scared of elf decks.
4 Mul Daya Channelers - drop chioce #2 on turn 2, huge beef or 5-8 of the archdruid. Use fetchlands to make it what you want. Max 9-10 noncreature spells in deck make it usually useful.
4 Leatherback Baloth - drop choice #1 on turn 2, always huge beef. Great with turn 3 attack -> opponent removes -> Momentous Fall using lands + llanowar.
4 Wolfbriar Elemental - ton of beef, wish I could have 8 of it. Mana dump and great even if not kicked.
3 Obstinate Baloth - tons of Jund and RDW in my meta, got it from the sideboard so much I eventually maindecked it. A good switch in for Momentous Fall against discard if you're sideboarding it.
2 Mitotic Slime - for Jund and the UW control that always pops up in my meta. Very effective at getting the kill with Overwhelming Stampede, even if the spell only gives a small boost for each.
3 Overwhelming Stampede - win condition that works well with a few 4/4s or a lot of 2/2 elves. Got a LOT of rogue wins due to producing just enough power to win.
3 Eldrazi Monument - win condition most effective against Jund. Don't play it if you only have a few fatties and no llanowar sac-fodder unless it means the win. May be even more effective in the future against Elspeth Tiriel.
3 Momentous Fall - my favorite card in the deck. Gamebreaking when applicable, useless when not. Don't be afraid to sac a 2/2 archdruid to it. Got sided out a lot for vines, however, so might be best as a side against other green aggro.
2 Verdant Catacombs, 2 Misty Rainforest - would probably have used more if I had them. Thins deck and gets the channelers into the right mode.
4 Great Sable Stag - phenomenal against Jund. There are also a lot of GWB and UB variants at my shop, and this works well against them. Too bad it's rotating out.
3 Vines of Vastwood - anti-card disadvantage and pseudo removal for larger opposing creatures. Substitute in over Momentous Fall to keep the right noncreature spell ratio. Could stand to be a 4-of.
3 Acidic Slime - never needed to use this once. Actual use is vs. other green monument decks. Best replaced by Sylvok Replica once Scars comes around.
2 Kozilek's Predator - used to be Garruk's Companion. Never really used these, but they're for the mirror to give more beef. Would probably be something better in Scars.
1 Mitotic Slime - extra anti-removal vs Jund and UW control.
1 Eldrazi Monument - sub in over an Overwhelming Stampede against UW control and Jund.
1 Overwhelming Stampede - sub in over an Eldrazi Monument against removal-light decks.
Cards that got cut:
> Khalni Hydra/Terra Stomper - great when you land it turn 3, not so great when you play an attacker turn 2. Ended up being too expensive and win-more most of the time. Could still be a nice sideboard against other green decks, I suppose.
> Elvish Visionary - the only two-drop, which the deck sorely misses. It often just didn't do enough, however, and I'd sideboard it out for the Obstinate Baloths. Could perhaps be added back in (in the form of Sylvan Ranger) given more sideboard space for the baloths. Fauna Shaman might work well, too.
> Joraga Warcaller - from the old elf version of the deck. Went away when I put more non-elf things in, and Wolfbriar is a better mana-sink anyway.
> Garruk's Packleader - works ok as beef and card advantage, but mainboard mitotic worked out better in general.
Other cards that might be useful now or in the future:
> More sac lands - the life doesn't hurt much, and you want those channelers in the right mode.
> Vengevine - I'm not made of money so I had none. I think it would be useful, but this deck only sometimes plays multiple creatures a turn. Would be good with Fauna Shaman, of course.
> Fauna Shaman - could be a good replacement for the old Elvish Visionary, since it keeps the elf count up at 2 mana.
> Nest Invader - probably should have tried this as a two-drop, but never got around to it.
> Bellowing Tanglewurm (Scars) - more redundancy in evasion. Would probably put the mainboard mitotics in the sideboard over Kozilek's Predators to make room for these mainboard, especially since a lot of the removal is going away and mitotics might not be as necessary.
> Precursor Golem (Scars) - another candidate to replace the mitotics mainboard. So much beef, and if removed you've only lost a 3/3 for 5, which isn't so bad. Nuts with the deck's win conditions and still amazing without.
> Wurmcoil Engine (Scars) - works well if you get the magical 6-mana turn 3. Might be a good replacement for the mitotics. Has the same problems as Khalni Hydra/Terra Stomper, however.
> Copperhorn Scout (Scars) - keeps the elf count up and provides a massive wall of meat on the opponent's turn. Usually I killed them by attacking before they could kill me with attacking, though.
> Withstand Death (Scars) - when people start running Day more due to creature-based (infect, grand architect, myr tribal) Scars strategy, this might be better than Vines. Maybe.
> Sylvok Replica (Scars) - will probably replace Acidic Slime in the sideboard.
> Infiltration Lens (Scars) - a possible replacement for the Momentous Falls. If they block your 5/5 channelers, you get a ton of card advantage. Multiple lenses on your team is even more ridiculous.
Other thoughts gleaned from experience:
> Due to the lack of a 2-drop and low land count, aggressive mulligans are sometimes indicated. It's not impossible to win without a turn 1 llanowar, but it severely hampers you (a good thing since a turn 1-2 bolt on the turn 1 llanowar hurts like hell). Hands with 1 land and 1 llanowar are usually just fine. Again, putting the Obstinate Baloths in the sideboard and mainboarding 3x Nest Invaders or another useful 2-drop would probably be the next step for this deck. Dropping a llanowar for a 23rd land might be acceptable as well, although risky.
> On turn 2, the play priority is: leatherback, channelers, archdruid. Meat before ramps is always the best.
> The deck has problems with creatures larger than it, which is half the reason for vines. Thankfully its archnemesis Knight of the Reliquary is going out, but vines is still well-used killing a huge blocker or baneslayer.
> With Great Sable Stag going out, Autumn's Veil may be indicated depending on the meta. For creature protection vines is still better, but you gotta do what you gotta do against counterspells not named Mana Leak (for which you usually have plenty of mana). Just have to keep the noncreature spell ratio correct when siding.
> Always go for it if it would do any good at all. If you can't win with a stampede, then play a wolfbriar and get in when you can. This deck (and green decks in general) does not reward sitting on your laurels.
Important matchups (that I can remember):
> UW Control - +1 Eldrazi Monument/-1 Overwhelming Stampede, +1 Mitotic Slime/-1 Obstinate Baloth, +3 Vines of Vastwood/-3 Momentous Fall
Abuse the vines to get through for damage/reduce losses from single-target removal/kill walls of omens and baneslayers. Try to get the mitotics and monuments out fast, and always save some mana elves in your hand in case you get blown out. Use sac-lands to deal with Jace fateseal, and attack planeswalkers only if you absolutely have to (to keep them from going off or if they're named Gideon Jura).
> Aggro decks (allies, mirror, GWx) - sideboard depends on the opponent's deck. Exchanging a monument for the fourth stampede is almost always indicated, and vines may be useful if they have lots of removal alongside or creatures of insurmountable size (otherwise Momentous Fall should be fine). Racing them is the key.
> RDW - think about bringing in the last mitotic and perhaps another stampede. Vines usually isn't necessary, but keep them in mind. Priority goes to both baloths since they are good at standing up to red.
Well, these are most of my thoughts on this deck type at the moment. Perhaps some of them will be of use to a fellow green aggro player in the future. As someone who plays best by attacking with creatures, I enjoyed piloting this deck very much, and I leave it with fond memories. I may try an artifact version of this deck with the metalcraft dudes (Carapace Forger/Ezuri's Brigade + Momentous Fall = awesome) come winter, but we'll just have to see what comes up. Thanks to those who read the wall of text, and keep on swinging!
And for the record, I choose neither. I've often won on two lands, preferring to keep my mana curve tight with the highest cmc spell at 5, which is already pushing it imo. Losing to manascrew isn't fun, so I prefer to minimize the impact of that particular circumstance as much as possible.
When I first saw the Intimidate guy, I was like "OMFG AWSM!!!11" until I realized how hard they were pushing artifact creatures like Myr. That's one of the first 4/4's for 5 I've liked in awhile (besides Mitotic to an extent) because of the way he can possibly affect the boardstate, but I think it'll really depend on the soon-to-be-chaotic meta to determine his worth in MGA.
I agree with your sentiments on Khalni Hydra/Terra Stomper for exactly the same reasons. As for the wurm, the abundance of artifact creatures doesn't really bother me much. If people play artifact blockers, Naturalize and Sylvok Replica both become "destroy target would-be blocker." This may still be a problem against Wurmcoil Engine, but I think the intimidate wurm should still do plenty when attacking with the team, especially if they only have half a field of artifact creatures. I'm not sure I would pick it over Precursor Golem, however.
Does Infiltration Lens have any room in a super-aggro deck like Mono-Green?
Extra card draw in Green would be great but I can't see myself cutting any Stampedes/Monuments for it. That leaves cutting out Garruk or 2-3 creatures...
Does Infiltration Lens have any room in a super-aggro deck like Mono-Green?
Extra card draw in Green would be great but I can't see myself cutting any Stampedes/Monuments for it. That leaves cutting out Garruk or 2-3 creatures...
I don't see why not. They're either going to be taking tons of damage, losing card advantage in the form of their dying creatures while you gain massive card advantage, or using up their removal exactly where you want it. I wouldn't take creatures out for it though.
Asceticism would turn out to be more of a SB card for us. Considering that it does nothing for us when attacking. It just prevents us from losing guys. Monument does that a little better and also makes our guys fly. Also, against decks that don't care about our creatures (aka, burn and discard), it turns out to be useless.
I need to try out both the Wave and the Wurm in place of my Thornling. T_T WTB, MOAR LINGSSSSS. I'll post what results I get and how I feel about each of them when I get the chance.
Also, we have a couple new 1 drops / 0 drops to take a look at.
1 Drop #1 - Copperhorn Scout, 1/1 for 1 who untaps all our attackers? The psuedo vigilance is kinda good. Might be useful in tap out situations (Gideon, Sleep)
1 Drop #2 - Ezuri's Archers, 1/2 for 1 mana. Nuff said. That and it can block early fliers and kill them really easily.
0 Drop #1 - Memnite, Derrrrrrp.
And a few picks that might also be good for filling those Game Turn around cards that are 5 mana or more. (Ex. Mitotic Slime and Terra Stomper)
Bomb #1 - Bellowing Tanglewurm. I like the intimidate a lot.
Bomb #2 - Genesis Wave. Would need testing. Possibly VERY useful if played for enough
Bomb #3 - Liege of the Tangle. If left on the field for even one turn, he'll pack a punch that'll drop your opponent in no time flat.
Bomb #4 - Myr Battlesphere. Works well with ascension from what I can see. 5 bodies for 7 mana is NOT bad. . . >_>
Bomb #5 - Precursor Golem. He's 9 power spread out over 3 bodies for 5 mana. Works incredibly well with BMA, and to be honest, keeps the monument alive for 3 turns. I don't really care if he dies to a bolt, you used one card, they used one card. And yours packs A LOT more threat.
Bomb #6 - Wurmcoil Engine. I was so excited when I first saw this. He might be able to just replace Mitotic Slime instead because of his splitting ability. But, 6/6 lifelink, deathtoucher for 6 colorless is NOT bad. No matter how you look at it. Especially since he has resilience.
So, as I kinda expected, we got more potential bombs then we did below the curve cards, but Quite a bit of them are useful all the same.
One last thing that could fit.
Lol, Sword of Body and Mind. ATTACK MY MIGHTY ELDRAZI SPAWN TOKEN, USE THE SWORD AND CLEAVE OPEN MY ENEMIES TO REVEAL SOME OF THEIR THOUGHTS AND . . . a wolf? Sure. . . I guess I'll take that? NOW ATTACK MIGHTY WOLF TOKEN, USE THE SWORD. . .
EDIT: I seem to have gotten beaten to posting things while I was typing >.<
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Modern Decks: GGGMGAGGG RRRRed AffinityRRR RGShamansGR BWB/W ControlWB
EDIT: I seem to have gotten beaten to posting things while I was typing >.<
Don't worry, yours is a lot easier to read than mine I do think that Precursor Golem will be very good in this kind of deck though. It just seems custom-made for stompy decks, and a lot of people seem to be undervaluing it by not realizing that destroying it is a 1-for-1 and not a 3-for-1. I actually think we both missed another good card though: Chimeric Mass. It ends up being a 4/4 for 5 (like several other things) when necessary, and it dodges non-instant creature removal like Flame Slash and Day of Judgment and Gatekeeper of Malakir quite handily. I could see it as a good sideboard card.
I didn't exactly "miss" mentioning Chimeric Mass. . . I didn't think it had good enough potential. I'm well aware that it can dodge ordinary creature removal, however, you need to activate it for it to be a creature. When it IS a creature, it retains its weakness of being an artifact and now has the weakness of being a creature. Playing it for less then 5 puts it within range of a new BB Kill spell (Most of our creatures are anyway, but why keep it within that range if we don't have to?). While it's not a creature, it's succeptable to Nature's Claim, Shatter, Naturalize, and the like. Granted, your opponent is probably using those for top priority removal (Monument/Ascension), but overall, there's no inherent ability for the mass. It can be chump blocked as well very easily, unlike all the bombs I've listed. Overall, the 6 I have listed are more justifyable in running than something that has no benefit besides an activated body.
Let's compare usefulness, and use against BSA
Wurm = Evasion (BSA can't block, Lol)
Genesis = HUGE board advantage (BSA can't deal with 4 -5 cards at once)
Liege = Game Ender (Eats BSA for Lunch and then spawns rather large babies)
Battleshpere = 5 separate bodies (BSA cries when trying to block all)
Golem = 9 power over 3 bodies for relatively cheap (BSA cries when trying to block all)
Wurmcoil = 6/6 Scary Beasty Wurm of Life and Death, with the resilience to make a 3/3 Beasty Wurm of Life AND a 3/3 Beasty Wurm of Death. (Eats BSA for 1st Breakfast, 2nd Breakfast, Brunch, Lunch, Snack, Dinner, Supper, Desert, and Midnight Snack)
Mass = Activated Body from between a 1/1 to a 6/6 (What's the point in paying more? You're opponent should be dead soon) (BTW, must be at least a 6/6 to eat a BSA)
I didn't exactly "miss" mentioning Chimeric Mass. . . I didn't think it had good enough potential. I'm well aware that it can dodge ordinary creature removal, however, you need to activate it for it to be a creature. When it IS a creature, it retains its weakness of being an artifact and now has the weakness of being a creature. Playing it for less then 5 puts it within range of a new BB Kill spell (Most of our creatures are anyway, but why keep it within that range if we don't have to?). While it's not a creature, it's succeptable to Nature's Claim, Shatter, Naturalize, and the like. Granted, your opponent is probably using those for top priority removal (Monument/Ascension), but overall, there's no inherent ability for the mass. It can be chump blocked as well very easily, unlike all the bombs I've listed. Overall, the 6 I have listed are more justifyable in running than something that has no benefit besides an activated body.
Let's compare usefulness, and use against BSA
Wurm = Evasion (BSA can't block, Lol)
Genesis = HUGE board advantage (BSA can't deal with 4 -5 cards at once)
Liege = Game Ender (Eats BSA for Lunch and then spawns rather large babies)
Battleshpere = 5 separate bodies (BSA cries when trying to block all)
Golem = 9 power over 3 bodies for relatively cheap (BSA cries when trying to block all)
Wurmcoil = 6/6 Scary Beasty Wurm of Life and Death, with the resilience to make a 3/3 Beasty Wurm of Life AND a 3/3 Beasty Wurm of Death. (Eats BSA for 1st Breakfast, 2nd Breakfast, Brunch, Lunch, Snack, Dinner, Supper, Desert, and Midnight Snack)
Mass = Activated Body from between a 1/1 to a 6/6 (What's the point in paying more? You're opponent should be dead soon) (BTW, must be at least a 6/6 to eat a BSA)
Fair enough. I was more interested in its post-Day applications than as a normal creature, but now that I think about it Mitotic Slime is still better in that category. Perhaps Chimeric Mass will find a home in UW Control...as for the others you listed, I agree on the intimidate wurm and precursor golem. The others I'm not so sure about. Wurmcoil is extremely good but a little high on the curve for me, battlesphere is even higher, and liege even higher than that. Like Shinato, I just don't see them being consistent enough drops if you don't get enough land and/or your mana creatures die off.
As for Genesis Wave, I'm still out to lunch on that one. It has a lot of promise, and it's probably my favorite card in the set, I just don't think it works as well for the kind of green aggro that plays a lot of 4cmc+ things. Not only do you have the same issue as the above of it being likely a dead card without plenty of mana, but you end up needing to pay 7 or 8 to get the most out of it. Otherwise, your precursor golems and eldrazi monuments and wolfbriars and other large things that net you wins get shunted off to the graveyard while you get maybe some llanowars and lands. Not to mention it puts itself and things like vines/overwhelming stampede in the yard regardless. I think it would be better in beastmaster elves or some sort of GW ramp aggro with lotus cobra.
The cards I'm missing right now are 2 of the monuments and they should be delivered tomorrow. I also have another Vengevine arriving and was wondering what would be good to take out so I can run the 4th Vengevine.
The sideboard is not set in stone and hopefully be fine tunning it on Friday night before I start playing. I'll also be trying to pick up a 3rd Trap since I'm pretty sure besides the aggro decks that will be showing up; there will be enough U/W control decks to justify having 3 Traps in the SB.
The only other deck that I still had built was a Kithkin deck so I spent my lunch period today playing both decks against each other to try and get a feel of this deck. From just messing around over 4 games; it does seem that once the Monument hit it was pretty much game over unless the Kithkin was able to get more creatures on the board then this deck or if I got mana flooded.
So any suggestions on the build will be greatly appreciated.
Psy
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Currently Playing:
Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
I posted this over in the Elfdrazi thread - I think strictly speaking it's more Elfdrazi than MGA, but strictly speaking it's still MGA too (well... as long as you don't take points away for including artifacts).
I think Ezuri's Brigade has the potential to be absolutely insane if we can get Metalcraft going.
One of the problems I've had with MGA decks in the past is having boatloads of mana and nothing to spend it on, or sitting around drawing card after card and only getting mana dorks or forests. That's why Chimeric Mass and the Battlesphere are in there. While it's certainly possible to drop the Mass with x=0 to get Metalcraft active, it's much more common to throw a couple out with 3 to 6 counters on them. Plus they're resistant to sweepers, which is great for when I'm playing, because that's what mostly trips me up.
I understand the drawbacks of Chimeric Mass, but to me one of the biggest problems this type of deck has is against sweepers - and Chimeric Mass is pretty immune to sweepers. Yeah, he can get Shattered or Condemned or whatever, but so can the rest of our guys. But he ain't going away to a DoJ or even an All is Dust.
The Sylvok Replicas are there as a sort of blocker and as removal for any "must kill" artifacts or enchantments. Yes, it works against the deck's goal if you have to sac one but if your only choice is to sac it to deal with a Platinum Emperion, the choice is clear.
The Battlesphere, in addition to providing a big target, throws down a bunch of Myr tokens which can be used to feed Monument. Plus he can come down on turn 4 in many cases, which puts a lot of pressure on. The Wurm might be a decent alternative though, I actually had sort of forgotten about him.
I will admit, however, that all the artifact creatures don't mesh well with Ezuri himself, since he can't buff them. I find it's not too horrible, considering the Masses are typically 5/5s, I don't attack with the Replicas, and the Battlesphere is pretty big by himself. But having an 11/11 trampler makes up for those shortcomings (yeah, yeah, until he eats a Doom Blade). But maybe that's a sign to cut Ezuri and put Garruk back in the deck (though I really really really don't like Garruk, and I suspect that I'll do some testing with Ezuri to see if he works well enough).
The deck seems solid and pretty fast, though of course that's on paper. Thoughts?
After playing a couple FNM with a Overrun Ascension build there is one key factor I noticed after each of the 10 games I've played. I never got Beastmaster Ascension activated once. Not once in 10 games vs varioius different types of decks. Despite this I went 3-2 in both the FNM I went to.
The reason I won those 6 games was Overwhelming Stampede. If I could run 6 or 7 of these I would. They're simply devastating and win games.
If I end up running a green deck after the rotation I will run a deck that uses Eldrazi Monument and Overwhelming Stampede as the win conditions. I'll probably run a couple more "fatties" as well.
The reason I won those 6 games was Overwhelming Stampede. If I could run 6 or 7 of these I would. They're simply devastating and win games.
Yeah, that card seems to get a lot of rogue wins. Overall it won more games for me during my run than even Eldrazi Monument, due to the fact that it can abruptly generate a quick win out of an ok board position. Overrun was a lot better at creating something out of nothing, but it usually required overextension to use, and Beastmaster Ascension strikes me as being somewhat similar on both fronts. Overwhelming Stampede can instead take just one or two fatties and maybe a mana dork alongside and make it instantly lethal, or at least produce enough damage to wipe out all the opponent's creatures with some trample damage to boot. At that point, even if they clear the board, you should still be able to play more stuff to finish them off since you didn't overextend.
EDIT: Thought up a simple example.
Turn 1: land, play llanowar/arbor elf
Turn 2: land, play leatherback baloth (or channelers)
Turn 3: land, attack for 4 (gets through because they can afford it or don't want to sac an early creature), play unkicked wolfbriar/obstinate baloth/leatherback/channelers
Turn 4: land, tap llanowar and lands for stampede, swing for lethal
Turn 5 (if they're still alive): swing for lethal or swing and play another creature
Now obviously this isn't that great of an example; you'll be playing around removal, or won't have enough lands or llanowars, or maybe you won't even have the stampede that early. What matters is that it demonstrates the efficiency of Overwhelming Stampede. Neither Overrun nor Beastmaster Ascension nor even Eldrazi Monument could go the distance, but Overwhelming Stampede can, and with only a single creature played each turn leading up to it.
Not once, huh? Interestingly enough, as the worst I've done with my mono-G was 4 and 2 when I kept 2 BMA's mainboard, and never went x and 2 again after putting in Ascension, though provided, the rest were 5-round tourneys.
The question is, when are you playing it? On what turn?
Exactly when you choose to drop it and thus 'how you play BMA' affects how well you do with it, as even pros like Jacob Van Lunen had to learn from Zvi firsthand on how-to-pilot-derp-green-deck, believe it or not.
If you would read his article on BMA, it would show you that the enchantment is actually meant as an anti-overextension tool more than one requiring it. Rather than need your fatties out on the board or overextend into various dorks, two swings with a board of Invader, manadork, spawn and say, plant token becomes lethal very soon.
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Current Standard decks: GMono-Green Beastmaster AggroG FNM 30-6-0 RWBoros BushwhackerRW FNM 8-2-0
EDH decks: GMultani, Maro-SorcererG
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Yes, that's one way to use Beastmaster Ascension. You can either wait until you have 7 guys on the field and then drop it, as a sort of mega-Overrun type of deal (sans trample but higher buffs), or play more conservatively and swing a little at a time depending on what the opponent has on the field. What I like to do is usually plant it when there's 4 or 5 creatures on my side, so I can swing all-out, have 1 or 2 guys die, and still have it ready to go off next turn, especially with a Vengevine at the ready.
Psy-
Well, I can personally attest to A-Zone being simply amazing with Monument in the lategame, but if you just want to aggro-curve out, you can definitely run Eldrazi Monument with only a set of Invaders and Predators to feed it; this is generally fine. As long as you're running 8 manadorks and 4 Khalni Garden, it really shouldn't be too bad, though you'll just have slightly less assurance for the lategame, which is generally bad for aggro anyway, particularly against control.
Tajuru Preserver, in my opinion, is mainly an out against Eldrazi builds, be it G/x Eldrazi Ramp or the occasionally seen Mono-White Eldrazi Control. It also has some utility against D-Force. Builds that ramp or sweep into a legendary fatboy like Ulamog or Kozilek are still viable for us to race and beat, so I don't think Preserver will be the first sideboarding choice. In my experience against Valakut Ramp, as well, racing them is a high priority and actually quite possible, especially if you go on the play. What's your current sideboard look like, if any?
GMono-Green Beastmaster AggroG FNM 30-6-0
RWBoros BushwhackerRW FNM 8-2-0
EDH decks:
GMultani, Maro-SorcererG
Right now I'm not 100% sure what I'm going to have for a SB; a lot will matter and what I can get my hands on once I arrive at the store.
Right now I'm pretty sure that I'll put in 3 Pithing Needle to help against PWs (until they rotate out at the end of the month); 3 Leyline of Vitality 2 Summoning Traps and then from that point forward I'm up in the air as to what to add.
I guess I'm trying to figure out what to remove from your build to play the 4 Vengevines. I have no trouble being aggro as when I 1st started playing back in Urza's saga I played Elves and then when I got back into playing 2 years ago; I started playing GW little kid before I went with Bant and then G/B Elves. So the Veng's just sorta seem to fit my sytle. But again this is without any testing.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Bird of Paradise
4 Nest Invader
4 Garruk's Companion
4 Leatherback Baloth
4 Kozilek's Predator
4 Wolfbriar Elemental
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Beastmaster Ascension
3 Overwhelming Stampede
Land (22)
4 Khalni Garden
18 Forest
3 Mitotic Slime
3 Naturalize
3 Brindle Boar
3 Mold Shambler
3 Brittle Effigy
and almost anything else green
OUT OF QUESTION
Aura, really bad creature and expensive creature (more than 15$ a playset is alot for me)
This deck is pretty budget i dont know what to change to make it better... Plz post your comment to helps me.
Standard: GWRU 4C Collected Company
Modern: GUWRB Bloom Titan
Legacy: BUG SHARDLESS BUG
EDH :
GR BORBORYGMOS ENRAGED
GU PRIME SPEAKER ZEGENA
UWR ZEDRUU THE GREATHEARTED
UBR MISHRA ARTIFICER PRODIGY
B SHEOLDRED WHISPERING ONE
R ASHLING THE PILGRIM
Both have their values and limitations.
Terra Stomper
It's uncounterable, a major advantage against control decks. Also as trample to trickle more damage through. Big body also. Nothing bad really about it.
Khalni Hydra
Has pseudo affinity for green creatures, thus reducing costs. Also has trample and a fat body. It's very similar to Stomper, but is counterable.
Therefore, Stomper IMO is better than the hydra.
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Stomper despite his bigger bottom and trample loses out to Gaea's Revenge if you need to stick a fatty in a control match as he dodges the other spot removal they will undoubtedly be packing and can beat them to the punch on sweeping with his hasty body.
Unanswered either creature should win you the match so make the call on your meta really...
I would say, going blind into a meta, you would probably want 'Vines even over the A-Zones. Reason being is that they definitely add more to the aggro curve whereas A-Zones are more versus Control and with the long game in mind (and also to freak the opponent out, at times). Not that 'Vine does any worse against Control mind you, but he's more of an 'out of the gates' kind of creature so I would use him over A-Zone in an unknown meta, as much as I love the enchantment. Not 100% sure about using him with the Shaman engine though.
Needles are good versus PW's indeed, and even manlands in a pinch. Leyline is good versus decks that rely on Cunning Sparkmage to take out your dorks, so it's not a terrible choice if you see that guy game one (Boros, Naya, etc). I would actually recommend some form of artifact/enchantment removal as well, like maybe Acidic Slime or even good ol' Naturalize. A playset of Obstinate Baloth will also help immensely versus RDW or anyone ballsy enough to still use Blightning on you--that'll teach 'em.
kakwann-
Actually, your current list looks decent, and rather similar to the 'budget' version I make for people unwilling to spend some extra cash on a Monument or Cobras. Treespeaker over Elves only if you know the meta, in my opinion. But other than that your decklist actually looks fine as is when going 'blind', mainboard anyway. Obviously the sideboard could be tweaked according to what you are up against.
mexicanswateam-
Oh man, a comparison versus two creatures I relatively despise?! Count me in!
Terra Stomper vs. Khalni Hydra...
Let's look at the Hydra first. He's big. He's green. Wait, so is Stomper. But whatever... the main selling point of this guy is that he gets cheaper the more green guys you have out (yeah, even that Plant token you got there from the Garden...) meaning he can touch the ground as early as turn 3 if you've planted two manadorks there before...well, a Treespeaker being one of them. So, he costs GGGGGG when you've got two guys out, and possibly even less depending. Even if you draw into absolutely no manadorks somehow, getting this guy out sometime midgame can actually be a reality. If you got a lot of guys out lategame, casting him can even be free, but how much more do you need to win with a 'lot of guys'?
Stomper on the other hand has no such discount. Stat-wise, he's pretty much exactly the same outside of the whole 'can't be countered' clause. I do feel that this adds some viability in that it strips an option from UW (and Pyro, Runeflare perhaps, Poly, Mythic Bant, etc...) which is to remove him with countermagic. In a vacuum, Hydra certainly looks better, due to the greenffinity-type clause. But the ideal Mono-Green fatties setup has two manadorks out by turn 3 to begin with, and it's just as easy to get out a Stomper with 3 Forests, Birds of Paradise, and a leveled Joraga Treespeaker (or Cobra) as it is to cast Hydra. Hydra is painful to cast post-Day of Judgment since his conditional discount probably isn't applying very well (unless you had a Mitotic on the field, in which case you should be pretty happy anyway), whereas Stomper pretty much will force them to have to spend actual removal since they can't simply stuff him with Mana Leak or Flashfreeze. It's almost like this guy is meant to stand alone and just dare your opponent to use their removal.
I like to call turn 3 the 'magic' turn for us. It's where the magic happens. It's when the opponent says 'Oh ☺☺☺☺'. The question is, how many guys are we usually going to have on the field more often than not during the untap phase of T3? Usually... around... 2, maybe 3+ for people who run Khalni Garden and Nest Invader (and the Spawn he makes isn't green, either)...?
...How many of them will be manadorks?
If you can answer that question, based on your meta, that may swing the game in either Hydra or Stomper's favor a little more. Provided you don't miss any land drops on turn 3, you can cast Terra Stomper with a Llanowar/BoP/Hierarch and Joraga Treespeaker. You can cast Khalni Hydra with ...well, about the same setup of creatures, so in reality it isn't actually that much faster.
If it is, like T1 manadork, T2 TRIPLE MANADORK, etc... you are probably overextending. In which case just run BMA on T3, the poor bastard will have to spend an O-ring to not die to 'just' manadorks.
Come turn four or so, when you get more guys, then Hydra starts to slowly look more attractive as a beater than Stomper.
Strangely, I'm going to have to go with the big dinosaur by just a slight margin.
GMono-Green Beastmaster AggroG FNM 30-6-0
RWBoros BushwhackerRW FNM 8-2-0
EDH decks:
GMultani, Maro-SorcererG
I have a play set of Obstinate Baloths that should be arriving today in the mail. I was also planning on bring Naturalize's and Acidic's; and possibly even some Mitotic Slime to help against board control decks running board sweepers.
I'm hoping to get there a little early and try to see what people are playing and then start to make the SB before everything starts. I look at the next few weeks for me as figuring out what is going to be played in my meta and then adjusting the deck and side board from there. It is similar to what I did last time once I switched from playing G/W Little Kid and started playing Bant. The Cruel Control players started to really hate playing me; because even in game 2 and 3; I had the SB answers to give me the edge against them.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
I like your analysis but want to add a little, also I don't know which one is the "dinosaur".
Mostly I agree with you, when facing U/W. I don't know about the rest of you but my meta isnt JUST U/W. I face red, black, and green ramp more often than not and against them the hydra really shines. Against control (with counters and DoJ) Terra Stomper is better by a slight margin, but against anything else the hydra is much better. Thats why I use the Hydra in my list as a 3-of, because against the majority of my opponents he is simply better! Many opponents dont have sweepers so dropping 5 creatures and then a Hydra for damn near free isn't suicide, it's game. When they have sweepers just use him to either draw out sweepers with a Gaea's Revenge in hand or to draw counters away from Overwhelming.
Good luck with wichever you choose!
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"People with needs have trivial purchasing power while people with purchasing power have trivial needs."
-Steve Randy Waldman, Interfludity
Now that we're finally allowed to discuss SoM, I was wondering what everyone's take was on two new cards. The new Intimidate worm and Genesis Wave.
The Intimidate worm can most likely end a match when he hits the board, unless you're playing against other mono green decks, and It seems that even without a pump spell, swinging after a potential stand off for around 8 - 12 seems like a good idea. That is, around 4-6 other creatures I'm talking about.
And with Genesis Wave, it could give us a LOT of late game tempo. All we would need is 8 mana to fetch 5 deep and hit every permanent and pop it into play. Running it as a 2 of in a 60 card deck would mean that it probably wouldn't hit the other. Even if you only hit 5 land with that, you've filtered through 5 land and stopped a DForce in its tracks. In a best case senario, you'd hit a win con or two and a couple creatures. For instance, Hitting say, Eldrazi Monument, along with Garruk Wildspeaker, Birds of Paradise, Nest Invader, and a Forest. For 8 mana you get an INCREDIBLY good field. Even after a Day, this would put you back in winning position. The threat potential of this is incredible. Since we don't actually run spells (Besides this new sorcery), playing it as a 2 of wouldn't be too bad in my opinion since playing it essentially means that we get 1+ free cards. Playing it for 8cc seems to be the most reasonable however. Simply because, digging down 5 cards is great already. Playing them for free if they're at or below 5cc is another.
GGGMGAGGG
RRRRed AffinityRRR
RGShamansGR
BWB/W ControlWB
EDH:
Maelstrom Wanderer
Heartless Hidetsugu
Cromat
Nicol Bolas
Sapling of Colfenor
Mayael the Anima
15 Forests
3 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Arbor Elf
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Nissa’s Chosen
4 Joraga Warcaller
4 Copperhorn Scout
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Eldrazi Monument
I was thinking this could play Genesis Wave as a one or two of because it seems pretty busted when you go cast for 8 get 5 permanents from your deck. I was thinking you could cut one monument and one copperhorn scout (untap guy). I don't know if I like cutting the untap guy because his abilities stack which make it that much better. Ezuri, in my opinion can function as almost a second monument with the regenerate and overrun abilities. Thoughts?
Big green stompy's main problems/complaints tend to stem from sweepers, which is why I put Stomper ahead by a very small margin. Versus an opponent without such removal, then yes, Hydra is generally going to be more of a problem for them.
And for the record, I choose neither. I've often won on two lands, preferring to keep my mana curve tight with the highest cmc spell at 5, which is already pushing it imo. Losing to manascrew isn't fun, so I prefer to minimize the impact of that particular circumstance as much as possible.
I predict great things for Genesis Wave. Not necessarily in Standard, but certainly in EDH and perhaps even some of the more competitive eternal formats. This seems to be more of a build-around card at first glance, but is so amazingly useful no matter how I look at it, so don't hold me to that.
When I first saw the Intimidate guy, I was like "OMFG AWSM!!!11" until I realized how hard they were pushing artifact creatures like Myr. That's one of the first 4/4's for 5 I've liked in awhile (besides Mitotic to an extent) because of the way he can possibly affect the boardstate, but I think it'll really depend on the soon-to-be-chaotic meta to determine his worth in MGA.
GMono-Green Beastmaster AggroG FNM 30-6-0
RWBoros BushwhackerRW FNM 8-2-0
EDH decks:
GMultani, Maro-SorcererG
As for the Wurm, he might be a reasonable replacement for MotWH in one of my one-of slots but I don't see him being a staple of the deck. At the same mana he can't replace Overwhelming or Monument because he dosen't add power, just evasion. This by no means makes him bad, just can't go in a Win-con slot and I'm not sure he's better than the other mid-range creatures we have. Especially so considering we may need to find room for Acidic Slime or Acid-web Spider MB soon...so many artifacts....
EDIT: Speaking of Win-cons any thoughts on Asceticism? Looks awesome but is it worth losing a Monument or Overwhelming for?
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-Steve Randy Waldman, Interfludity
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Arbor Elf
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Mul Daya Channelers
4 Leatherback Baloth
4 Wolfbriar Elemental
3 Obstinate Baloth
2 Mitotic Slime
3 Overwhelming Stampede
3 Eldrazi Monument
3 Momentous Fall
Lands
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
18 Forest
4 Great Sable Stag
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Acidic Slime
2 Kozilek's Predator
1 Mitotic Slime
1 Eldrazi Monument
1 Overwhelming Stampede
It should probably be noted that it started as an Elf deck with Khalni Hydra and Momentous Fall, and evolved into something more interesting over time. It could doubtless use improvements on several fronts, but it worked well enough for a leisurely time at FNM. Here are some explanations for card choices, although most of them should be obvious:
4 Llanowar Elves - part of the original elf engine. Powers up archdruids and gets three-drops on turn 2.
4 Arbor Elf - 5-8 llanowars to make sure you get one in the opening hand.
4 Elvish Archdruid - drop choice #3 on turn 2. Provides fuel for Wolfbriars and makes the other elves useful in attacking. Its actual best use is a decoy for people who are scared of elf decks.
4 Mul Daya Channelers - drop chioce #2 on turn 2, huge beef or 5-8 of the archdruid. Use fetchlands to make it what you want. Max 9-10 noncreature spells in deck make it usually useful.
4 Leatherback Baloth - drop choice #1 on turn 2, always huge beef. Great with turn 3 attack -> opponent removes -> Momentous Fall using lands + llanowar.
4 Wolfbriar Elemental - ton of beef, wish I could have 8 of it. Mana dump and great even if not kicked.
3 Obstinate Baloth - tons of Jund and RDW in my meta, got it from the sideboard so much I eventually maindecked it. A good switch in for Momentous Fall against discard if you're sideboarding it.
2 Mitotic Slime - for Jund and the UW control that always pops up in my meta. Very effective at getting the kill with Overwhelming Stampede, even if the spell only gives a small boost for each.
3 Overwhelming Stampede - win condition that works well with a few 4/4s or a lot of 2/2 elves. Got a LOT of rogue wins due to producing just enough power to win.
3 Eldrazi Monument - win condition most effective against Jund. Don't play it if you only have a few fatties and no llanowar sac-fodder unless it means the win. May be even more effective in the future against Elspeth Tiriel.
3 Momentous Fall - my favorite card in the deck. Gamebreaking when applicable, useless when not. Don't be afraid to sac a 2/2 archdruid to it. Got sided out a lot for vines, however, so might be best as a side against other green aggro.
2 Verdant Catacombs, 2 Misty Rainforest - would probably have used more if I had them. Thins deck and gets the channelers into the right mode.
4 Great Sable Stag - phenomenal against Jund. There are also a lot of GWB and UB variants at my shop, and this works well against them. Too bad it's rotating out.
3 Vines of Vastwood - anti-card disadvantage and pseudo removal for larger opposing creatures. Substitute in over Momentous Fall to keep the right noncreature spell ratio. Could stand to be a 4-of.
3 Acidic Slime - never needed to use this once. Actual use is vs. other green monument decks. Best replaced by Sylvok Replica once Scars comes around.
2 Kozilek's Predator - used to be Garruk's Companion. Never really used these, but they're for the mirror to give more beef. Would probably be something better in Scars.
1 Mitotic Slime - extra anti-removal vs Jund and UW control.
1 Eldrazi Monument - sub in over an Overwhelming Stampede against UW control and Jund.
1 Overwhelming Stampede - sub in over an Eldrazi Monument against removal-light decks.
Cards that got cut:
> Khalni Hydra/Terra Stomper - great when you land it turn 3, not so great when you play an attacker turn 2. Ended up being too expensive and win-more most of the time. Could still be a nice sideboard against other green decks, I suppose.
> Elvish Visionary - the only two-drop, which the deck sorely misses. It often just didn't do enough, however, and I'd sideboard it out for the Obstinate Baloths. Could perhaps be added back in (in the form of Sylvan Ranger) given more sideboard space for the baloths. Fauna Shaman might work well, too.
> Joraga Warcaller - from the old elf version of the deck. Went away when I put more non-elf things in, and Wolfbriar is a better mana-sink anyway.
> Garruk's Packleader - works ok as beef and card advantage, but mainboard mitotic worked out better in general.
Other cards that might be useful now or in the future:
> More sac lands - the life doesn't hurt much, and you want those channelers in the right mode.
> Vengevine - I'm not made of money so I had none. I think it would be useful, but this deck only sometimes plays multiple creatures a turn. Would be good with Fauna Shaman, of course.
> Fauna Shaman - could be a good replacement for the old Elvish Visionary, since it keeps the elf count up at 2 mana.
> Nest Invader - probably should have tried this as a two-drop, but never got around to it.
> Bellowing Tanglewurm (Scars) - more redundancy in evasion. Would probably put the mainboard mitotics in the sideboard over Kozilek's Predators to make room for these mainboard, especially since a lot of the removal is going away and mitotics might not be as necessary.
> Precursor Golem (Scars) - another candidate to replace the mitotics mainboard. So much beef, and if removed you've only lost a 3/3 for 5, which isn't so bad. Nuts with the deck's win conditions and still amazing without.
> Wurmcoil Engine (Scars) - works well if you get the magical 6-mana turn 3. Might be a good replacement for the mitotics. Has the same problems as Khalni Hydra/Terra Stomper, however.
> Copperhorn Scout (Scars) - keeps the elf count up and provides a massive wall of meat on the opponent's turn. Usually I killed them by attacking before they could kill me with attacking, though.
> Withstand Death (Scars) - when people start running Day more due to creature-based (infect, grand architect, myr tribal) Scars strategy, this might be better than Vines. Maybe.
> Sylvok Replica (Scars) - will probably replace Acidic Slime in the sideboard.
> Infiltration Lens (Scars) - a possible replacement for the Momentous Falls. If they block your 5/5 channelers, you get a ton of card advantage. Multiple lenses on your team is even more ridiculous.
Other thoughts gleaned from experience:
> Due to the lack of a 2-drop and low land count, aggressive mulligans are sometimes indicated. It's not impossible to win without a turn 1 llanowar, but it severely hampers you (a good thing since a turn 1-2 bolt on the turn 1 llanowar hurts like hell). Hands with 1 land and 1 llanowar are usually just fine. Again, putting the Obstinate Baloths in the sideboard and mainboarding 3x Nest Invaders or another useful 2-drop would probably be the next step for this deck. Dropping a llanowar for a 23rd land might be acceptable as well, although risky.
> On turn 2, the play priority is: leatherback, channelers, archdruid. Meat before ramps is always the best.
> The deck has problems with creatures larger than it, which is half the reason for vines. Thankfully its archnemesis Knight of the Reliquary is going out, but vines is still well-used killing a huge blocker or baneslayer.
> With Great Sable Stag going out, Autumn's Veil may be indicated depending on the meta. For creature protection vines is still better, but you gotta do what you gotta do against counterspells not named Mana Leak (for which you usually have plenty of mana). Just have to keep the noncreature spell ratio correct when siding.
> Always go for it if it would do any good at all. If you can't win with a stampede, then play a wolfbriar and get in when you can. This deck (and green decks in general) does not reward sitting on your laurels.
Important matchups (that I can remember):
> UW Control - +1 Eldrazi Monument/-1 Overwhelming Stampede, +1 Mitotic Slime/-1 Obstinate Baloth, +3 Vines of Vastwood/-3 Momentous Fall
Abuse the vines to get through for damage/reduce losses from single-target removal/kill walls of omens and baneslayers. Try to get the mitotics and monuments out fast, and always save some mana elves in your hand in case you get blown out. Use sac-lands to deal with Jace fateseal, and attack planeswalkers only if you absolutely have to (to keep them from going off or if they're named Gideon Jura).
> Aggro decks (allies, mirror, GWx) - sideboard depends on the opponent's deck. Exchanging a monument for the fourth stampede is almost always indicated, and vines may be useful if they have lots of removal alongside or creatures of insurmountable size (otherwise Momentous Fall should be fine). Racing them is the key.
> RDW - think about bringing in the last mitotic and perhaps another stampede. Vines usually isn't necessary, but keep them in mind. Priority goes to both baloths since they are good at standing up to red.
Well, these are most of my thoughts on this deck type at the moment. Perhaps some of them will be of use to a fellow green aggro player in the future. As someone who plays best by attacking with creatures, I enjoyed piloting this deck very much, and I leave it with fond memories. I may try an artifact version of this deck with the metalcraft dudes (Carapace Forger/Ezuri's Brigade + Momentous Fall = awesome) come winter, but we'll just have to see what comes up. Thanks to those who read the wall of text, and keep on swinging!
Also...
I agree with your sentiments on Khalni Hydra/Terra Stomper for exactly the same reasons. As for the wurm, the abundance of artifact creatures doesn't really bother me much. If people play artifact blockers, Naturalize and Sylvok Replica both become "destroy target would-be blocker." This may still be a problem against Wurmcoil Engine, but I think the intimidate wurm should still do plenty when attacking with the team, especially if they only have half a field of artifact creatures. I'm not sure I would pick it over Precursor Golem, however.
EDIT: typos.
Extra card draw in Green would be great but I can't see myself cutting any Stampedes/Monuments for it. That leaves cutting out Garruk or 2-3 creatures...
I don't see why not. They're either going to be taking tons of damage, losing card advantage in the form of their dying creatures while you gain massive card advantage, or using up their removal exactly where you want it. I wouldn't take creatures out for it though.
I need to try out both the Wave and the Wurm in place of my Thornling. T_T WTB, MOAR LINGSSSSS. I'll post what results I get and how I feel about each of them when I get the chance.
Also, we have a couple new 1 drops / 0 drops to take a look at.
1 Drop #1 - Copperhorn Scout, 1/1 for 1 who untaps all our attackers? The psuedo vigilance is kinda good. Might be useful in tap out situations (Gideon, Sleep)
1 Drop #2 - Ezuri's Archers, 1/2 for 1 mana. Nuff said. That and it can block early fliers and kill them really easily.
0 Drop #1 - Memnite, Derrrrrrp.
And a few picks that might also be good for filling those Game Turn around cards that are 5 mana or more. (Ex. Mitotic Slime and Terra Stomper)
Bomb #1 - Bellowing Tanglewurm. I like the intimidate a lot.
Bomb #2 - Genesis Wave. Would need testing. Possibly VERY useful if played for enough
Bomb #3 - Liege of the Tangle. If left on the field for even one turn, he'll pack a punch that'll drop your opponent in no time flat.
Bomb #4 - Myr Battlesphere. Works well with ascension from what I can see. 5 bodies for 7 mana is NOT bad. . . >_>
Bomb #5 - Precursor Golem. He's 9 power spread out over 3 bodies for 5 mana. Works incredibly well with BMA, and to be honest, keeps the monument alive for 3 turns. I don't really care if he dies to a bolt, you used one card, they used one card. And yours packs A LOT more threat.
Bomb #6 - Wurmcoil Engine. I was so excited when I first saw this. He might be able to just replace Mitotic Slime instead because of his splitting ability. But, 6/6 lifelink, deathtoucher for 6 colorless is NOT bad. No matter how you look at it. Especially since he has resilience.
So, as I kinda expected, we got more potential bombs then we did below the curve cards, but Quite a bit of them are useful all the same.
One last thing that could fit.
Lol, Sword of Body and Mind. ATTACK MY MIGHTY ELDRAZI SPAWN TOKEN, USE THE SWORD AND CLEAVE OPEN MY ENEMIES TO REVEAL SOME OF THEIR THOUGHTS AND . . . a wolf? Sure. . . I guess I'll take that? NOW ATTACK MIGHTY WOLF TOKEN, USE THE SWORD. . .
EDIT: I seem to have gotten beaten to posting things while I was typing >.<
GGGMGAGGG
RRRRed AffinityRRR
RGShamansGR
BWB/W ControlWB
EDH:
Maelstrom Wanderer
Heartless Hidetsugu
Cromat
Nicol Bolas
Sapling of Colfenor
Mayael the Anima
Don't worry, yours is a lot easier to read than mine I do think that Precursor Golem will be very good in this kind of deck though. It just seems custom-made for stompy decks, and a lot of people seem to be undervaluing it by not realizing that destroying it is a 1-for-1 and not a 3-for-1. I actually think we both missed another good card though: Chimeric Mass. It ends up being a 4/4 for 5 (like several other things) when necessary, and it dodges non-instant creature removal like Flame Slash and Day of Judgment and Gatekeeper of Malakir quite handily. I could see it as a good sideboard card.
Let's compare usefulness, and use against BSA
Wurm = Evasion (BSA can't block, Lol)
Genesis = HUGE board advantage (BSA can't deal with 4 -5 cards at once)
Liege = Game Ender (Eats BSA for Lunch and then spawns rather large babies)
Battleshpere = 5 separate bodies (BSA cries when trying to block all)
Golem = 9 power over 3 bodies for relatively cheap (BSA cries when trying to block all)
Wurmcoil = 6/6 Scary Beasty Wurm of Life and Death, with the resilience to make a 3/3 Beasty Wurm of Life AND a 3/3 Beasty Wurm of Death. (Eats BSA for 1st Breakfast, 2nd Breakfast, Brunch, Lunch, Snack, Dinner, Supper, Desert, and Midnight Snack)
Mass = Activated Body from between a 1/1 to a 6/6 (What's the point in paying more? You're opponent should be dead soon) (BTW, must be at least a 6/6 to eat a BSA)
GGGMGAGGG
RRRRed AffinityRRR
RGShamansGR
BWB/W ControlWB
EDH:
Maelstrom Wanderer
Heartless Hidetsugu
Cromat
Nicol Bolas
Sapling of Colfenor
Mayael the Anima
Fair enough. I was more interested in its post-Day applications than as a normal creature, but now that I think about it Mitotic Slime is still better in that category. Perhaps Chimeric Mass will find a home in UW Control...as for the others you listed, I agree on the intimidate wurm and precursor golem. The others I'm not so sure about. Wurmcoil is extremely good but a little high on the curve for me, battlesphere is even higher, and liege even higher than that. Like Shinato, I just don't see them being consistent enough drops if you don't get enough land and/or your mana creatures die off.
As for Genesis Wave, I'm still out to lunch on that one. It has a lot of promise, and it's probably my favorite card in the set, I just don't think it works as well for the kind of green aggro that plays a lot of 4cmc+ things. Not only do you have the same issue as the above of it being likely a dead card without plenty of mana, but you end up needing to pay 7 or 8 to get the most out of it. Otherwise, your precursor golems and eldrazi monuments and wolfbriars and other large things that net you wins get shunted off to the graveyard while you get maybe some llanowars and lands. Not to mention it puts itself and things like vines/overwhelming stampede in the yard regardless. I think it would be better in beastmaster elves or some sort of GW ramp aggro with lotus cobra.
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Khalni Garden
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
2 Wolfbriar Elemental
3 Kozilek's Predator
4 Nest Invader
3 Vengevine
3 Leatherback Baloth
3 Beastmaster Ascension
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Overwhelming Stampede
The cards I'm missing right now are 2 of the monuments and they should be delivered tomorrow. I also have another Vengevine arriving and was wondering what would be good to take out so I can run the 4th Vengevine.
Right now for the sideboard I have
4 Obstinate Baloth
3 Brittle Effigy
3 Pithing Needle
3 Naturalize
The sideboard is not set in stone and hopefully be fine tunning it on Friday night before I start playing. I'll also be trying to pick up a 3rd Trap since I'm pretty sure besides the aggro decks that will be showing up; there will be enough U/W control decks to justify having 3 Traps in the SB.
The only other deck that I still had built was a Kithkin deck so I spent my lunch period today playing both decks against each other to try and get a feel of this deck. From just messing around over 4 games; it does seem that once the Monument hit it was pretty much game over unless the Kithkin was able to get more creatures on the board then this deck or if I got mana flooded.
So any suggestions on the build will be greatly appreciated.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
I think Ezuri's Brigade has the potential to be absolutely insane if we can get Metalcraft going.
3x Joraga Treespeaker
4x Llanowar Elves
3x Elvish Archdruid
2x Joraga Warcaller
3x Nissa's Chosen
3x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
3x Sylvok Replica
3x Ezuri's Brigade
2x Myr Battlesphere
3x Overwhelming Stampede
4x Eldrazi Monument
3x Nissa Revane
2x Tectonic Edge
2x Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
17 Forest
One of the problems I've had with MGA decks in the past is having boatloads of mana and nothing to spend it on, or sitting around drawing card after card and only getting mana dorks or forests. That's why Chimeric Mass and the Battlesphere are in there. While it's certainly possible to drop the Mass with x=0 to get Metalcraft active, it's much more common to throw a couple out with 3 to 6 counters on them. Plus they're resistant to sweepers, which is great for when I'm playing, because that's what mostly trips me up.
I understand the drawbacks of Chimeric Mass, but to me one of the biggest problems this type of deck has is against sweepers - and Chimeric Mass is pretty immune to sweepers. Yeah, he can get Shattered or Condemned or whatever, but so can the rest of our guys. But he ain't going away to a DoJ or even an All is Dust.
The Sylvok Replicas are there as a sort of blocker and as removal for any "must kill" artifacts or enchantments. Yes, it works against the deck's goal if you have to sac one but if your only choice is to sac it to deal with a Platinum Emperion, the choice is clear.
The Battlesphere, in addition to providing a big target, throws down a bunch of Myr tokens which can be used to feed Monument. Plus he can come down on turn 4 in many cases, which puts a lot of pressure on. The Wurm might be a decent alternative though, I actually had sort of forgotten about him.
I will admit, however, that all the artifact creatures don't mesh well with Ezuri himself, since he can't buff them. I find it's not too horrible, considering the Masses are typically 5/5s, I don't attack with the Replicas, and the Battlesphere is pretty big by himself. But having an 11/11 trampler makes up for those shortcomings (yeah, yeah, until he eats a Doom Blade). But maybe that's a sign to cut Ezuri and put Garruk back in the deck (though I really really really don't like Garruk, and I suspect that I'll do some testing with Ezuri to see if he works well enough).
The deck seems solid and pretty fast, though of course that's on paper. Thoughts?
The reason I won those 6 games was Overwhelming Stampede. If I could run 6 or 7 of these I would. They're simply devastating and win games.
If I end up running a green deck after the rotation I will run a deck that uses Eldrazi Monument and Overwhelming Stampede as the win conditions. I'll probably run a couple more "fatties" as well.
GGGOmnath, Locus of ManaGGG
Standard
RMyrboltR
Yeah, that card seems to get a lot of rogue wins. Overall it won more games for me during my run than even Eldrazi Monument, due to the fact that it can abruptly generate a quick win out of an ok board position. Overrun was a lot better at creating something out of nothing, but it usually required overextension to use, and Beastmaster Ascension strikes me as being somewhat similar on both fronts. Overwhelming Stampede can instead take just one or two fatties and maybe a mana dork alongside and make it instantly lethal, or at least produce enough damage to wipe out all the opponent's creatures with some trample damage to boot. At that point, even if they clear the board, you should still be able to play more stuff to finish them off since you didn't overextend.
EDIT: Thought up a simple example.
Turn 1: land, play llanowar/arbor elf
Turn 2: land, play leatherback baloth (or channelers)
Turn 3: land, attack for 4 (gets through because they can afford it or don't want to sac an early creature), play unkicked wolfbriar/obstinate baloth/leatherback/channelers
Turn 4: land, tap llanowar and lands for stampede, swing for lethal
Turn 5 (if they're still alive): swing for lethal or swing and play another creature
Now obviously this isn't that great of an example; you'll be playing around removal, or won't have enough lands or llanowars, or maybe you won't even have the stampede that early. What matters is that it demonstrates the efficiency of Overwhelming Stampede. Neither Overrun nor Beastmaster Ascension nor even Eldrazi Monument could go the distance, but Overwhelming Stampede can, and with only a single creature played each turn leading up to it.
The question is, when are you playing it? On what turn?
Exactly when you choose to drop it and thus 'how you play BMA' affects how well you do with it, as even pros like Jacob Van Lunen had to learn from Zvi firsthand on how-to-pilot-derp-green-deck, believe it or not.
If you would read his article on BMA, it would show you that the enchantment is actually meant as an anti-overextension tool more than one requiring it. Rather than need your fatties out on the board or overextend into various dorks, two swings with a board of Invader, manadork, spawn and say, plant token becomes lethal very soon.
GMono-Green Beastmaster AggroG FNM 30-6-0
RWBoros BushwhackerRW FNM 8-2-0
EDH decks:
GMultani, Maro-SorcererG