What do you guys think about using Manabarbs in RDW?
It seems like the current top decks are UW/UB control, valakut, and twin. Manabarbs has been known to do well against control; for valakut, a titan is 6 damage (7 if it's zenith, and they should not have the Battlements for mana); finally, twin's combo and its protection would have trouble with this as well.
So here are a few points:
1. Should Manabarbs be considered, at least sideboard if not main deck?
2. Which version of RDW (goblin, shrine, burn, and others) would want it, and which card does it replaces?
3. How would you compare it with Koth, as both sits at 4cc ?
I think it really depends on the build you are playing. Something with 4 Koth, 4 Shrine, and a bunch of burn spells/goblin guides already has a pretty decent control match-up via the power of Shrine and Koth, so it probably wouldn't want Manabarbs.
A more sligh version might want it at the top of its curve to prevent control from stabalizing after their early assault though.
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I don't think its needed against control since we already have koth and shrine. I think it does warrant some testing against valakut and twin though. Its effectively 6+ damage against valakut and 7+ against twin.
Although kut will probably be bringing in naturalize against us to fight shrine, which makes mana barbs significantly worse.
Maindeck the 4 slot is already taken up by koth or sometimes chandra. And although the card is fine in the board, red deck already has a very clogged sideboard. The card won't see play in red decks not because it is bad, but simply because there are better options taking its spot.
Maindeck the 4 slot is already taken up by koth or sometimes chandra. And although the card is fine in the board, red deck already has a very clogged sideboard. The card won't see play in red decks not because it is bad, but simply because there are better options taking its spot.
There's actually a number of matchups where manabarbs is better than Koth because it provides more inevitability.
Take, for example, a U/x control deck. Especially W/U with cards like Gideon, Elspeth, Venser + blade splicer, etc - but also U/B with Consecrated Sphinx and Wurmcoil Engine.
Mana Barbs provides reach beyond their game ending cards and is very hard for them to remove. It can kill people who are untargettable, or who have a wall of lifegaining pro-red beatsticks.
I recognize in the abstract our game is about not allowing this to happen, but still manabarbs provides an element of reach for these matches that even Koth doesn't... especially against the ultra-rude things they bring in to slow us down. There's certainly a reason why some of the pros working on RDW have a couple on their boards.
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In the event that our meta that seems like it will be a bunch of mirrors or contol decks, I now think manabarbs is the way to go, specially when combined with shrine. Typically when my Koth drops, I already have my opponent to 8-10 life (that is being conservative). If it lands, from then on, none of my burn hurts being countered since I will just do 2 damage to them with manabarbs on the board. This is really making me think of swapping them in for Koth.
I'm not really sold yet, but I think the coolest thing is that they have to pay 6 life to drop a Wurmcoil Engine - which should put them in range for a flurry of game ending burn ;D
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." - Jaya Ballard
If a Tapout control deck picks up (UB or UW) then will be. Using it with Elemental RDW in ALA/ZEN Type 2, it was strong when it stuck against control.
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If a Tapout control deck picks up (UB or UW) then will be. Using it with Elemental RDW in ALA/ZEN Type 2, it was strong when it stuck against control.
You realize that UB Control is a tier 1 deck, with UW Control being a tier 1.5 deck as well? Also, on the play against valakut it can dome them for 6 when they slam titan. All in all a good sideboard card.
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Fiend Hunter is not a good answer to a Titan.... red will Shock it.
You realize that UB Control is a tier 1 deck, with UW Control being a tier 1.5 deck as well? Also, on the play against valakut it can dome them for 6 when they slam titan. All in all a good sideboard card.
Im running on the asumption that RDW, Valakult and Splinter Twin are the top 3 decks and control decks are tier 2 since jace has been banned.
Against Valakult, can you consistantly get out manabarbs before they land a primeval titan?
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Titans are played turn 6, Manabarbs turn 4? Unless you mean Valakut, in which case you'd only MAYBE bring it in if your on the play. Mr.Valakut wont get a titan out by his 3rd turn.
Otherwise, it serves the same function Koth did, maybe it gets countered, maybe it doesn't. By your logic we shouldn't run Koth against Control either. Except Manabarbs seals the deal against them should it resolve much more successfully.
I am running a lower non-Koth version of RDW with only 22 land and I find it difficult to consistently hit 4 mana on turn for in post-SB games. It really only matters if it comes down turn 4.
However, when I was playing a higher land count version and I sided it in it was the BOMB!
So I suggest that if you are running 20-22 land then you don't run it, but if you are 23-24 land then yes.
I am running a lower non-Koth version of RDW with only 22 land and I find it difficult to consistently hit 4 mana on turn for in post-SB games. It really only matters if it comes down turn 4.
However, when I was playing a higher land count version and I sided it in it was the BOMB!
So I suggest that if you are running 20-22 land then you don't run it, but if you are 23-24 land then yes.
I think it also depends on how many Manabarbs you plan on sideboarding. If you plan on sideboarding 3-4 of them, I would play 23-24 land. If you are only sideboarding 2 or the miser 1, 22 land would be fine.
Manabarbs may be our best answer to Leyline. If they tap out for leyline, you respond by sending a flurry of burn at their dome, then drop manabarbs on your turn. Hopefully you can force through the rest of the damage with creatures at that point.
I think in a very controlling RDW it would be good, like people have mentioned, any one of the Titans now cost 6 life to play, and burn to face should finish them.
My actual problem with Manabarbs is that it's a lot situational. I mean, if you are on your 4th turn, ahead on board, Manabarbs shines. It's not a threat on itself, but it's more like a nail in the coffin. Lately, I've found myself more often than not on the back foot against U/x control, thus more disliking Manabarbs a lot. Not considering that UB is less and less played, and against Valakut it gets the same problems it has with UW.
I think the context you provide is way more narrow. They are generally lower that us on life and in worse board positions.
Aside from 4x Timely Reinforcements MD, this is a good trump...
I suppose you might be right too though due to hero of bladehold...but then both cards suck when we consider that, don't they?
I play a 24 land Koth RDW. I recently tested 2x Manabarbs in the SB, and LOVE THEM, I decided to up the count to 3. The only decision now is to decide what to cut... But yeah, the card is a house against any control oriented deck, any white deck, and Pod decks (which have been popping up a lot in my area)
I play a 24 land Koth RDW. I recently tested 2x Manabarbs in the SB, and LOVE THEM, I decided to up the count to 3. The only decision now is to decide what to cut... But yeah, the card is a house against any control oriented deck, any white deck, and Pod decks (which have been popping up a lot in my area)
Not 100% true, you wouldn't run manabarbs against Neo-caw-blade, or Tempered Steel.deck would you
I like manabarbs and had 4 of them in my blinder eons past, I just don't like them in a meta where white walkers can just laugh off your barbs....
Its like what a few people have already said, manabarbs is the nail in the coffin, its great when your winning but does nothing when if they are on 10+ life. I'll rather have Koth or Hero for my 4cc control tech
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It seems like the current top decks are UW/UB control, valakut, and twin. Manabarbs has been known to do well against control; for valakut, a titan is 6 damage (7 if it's zenith, and they should not have the Battlements for mana); finally, twin's combo and its protection would have trouble with this as well.
So here are a few points:
1. Should Manabarbs be considered, at least sideboard if not main deck?
2. Which version of RDW (goblin, shrine, burn, and others) would want it, and which card does it replaces?
3. How would you compare it with Koth, as both sits at 4cc ?
Please discuss.
P.S. Long time lurker's post, please be nice
A more sligh version might want it at the top of its curve to prevent control from stabalizing after their early assault though.
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
Although kut will probably be bringing in naturalize against us to fight shrine, which makes mana barbs significantly worse.
RGStandard Gruul AggroRG
There's actually a number of matchups where manabarbs is better than Koth because it provides more inevitability.
Take, for example, a U/x control deck. Especially W/U with cards like Gideon, Elspeth, Venser + blade splicer, etc - but also U/B with Consecrated Sphinx and Wurmcoil Engine.
Mana Barbs provides reach beyond their game ending cards and is very hard for them to remove. It can kill people who are untargettable, or who have a wall of lifegaining pro-red beatsticks.
I recognize in the abstract our game is about not allowing this to happen, but still manabarbs provides an element of reach for these matches that even Koth doesn't... especially against the ultra-rude things they bring in to slow us down. There's certainly a reason why some of the pros working on RDW have a couple on their boards.
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." - Jaya Ballard
If a Tapout control deck picks up (UB or UW) then will be. Using it with Elemental RDW in ALA/ZEN Type 2, it was strong when it stuck against control.
Standard: RWB Dega Burn RWB
Modern: 1 Top Control 1
Legacy: XU Manaless Blue Dredge XU
EDH: Edric, Spymaster of Tres 1UG
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy 1UBR
I miss casting Snapcaster Mage + Rampant Growth
You realize that UB Control is a tier 1 deck, with UW Control being a tier 1.5 deck as well? Also, on the play against valakut it can dome them for 6 when they slam titan. All in all a good sideboard card.
Standard:
UW UW Pike
Mtgo Pauper:
U Tempo
Mtgo Block:
RW Aggro
I'm 14, shout-outs to all other young magic players out there!
Quotes:
Im running on the asumption that RDW, Valakult and Splinter Twin are the top 3 decks and control decks are tier 2 since jace has been banned.
Against Valakult, can you consistantly get out manabarbs before they land a primeval titan?
Standard: RWB Dega Burn RWB
Modern: 1 Top Control 1
Legacy: XU Manaless Blue Dredge XU
EDH: Edric, Spymaster of Tres 1UG
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy 1UBR
I miss casting Snapcaster Mage + Rampant Growth
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." - Jaya Ballard
Otherwise, it serves the same function Koth did, maybe it gets countered, maybe it doesn't. By your logic we shouldn't run Koth against Control either. Except Manabarbs seals the deal against them should it resolve much more successfully.
However, when I was playing a higher land count version and I sided it in it was the BOMB!
So I suggest that if you are running 20-22 land then you don't run it, but if you are 23-24 land then yes.
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
I think it also depends on how many Manabarbs you plan on sideboarding. If you plan on sideboarding 3-4 of them, I would play 23-24 land. If you are only sideboarding 2 or the miser 1, 22 land would be fine.
I realize we don't want to clog our deck with 4-drops, but I also don't think it is going to hurt too much to run some number of both.
I think the context you provide is way more narrow. They are generally lower that us on life and in worse board positions.
Aside from 4x Timely Reinforcements MD, this is a good trump...
I suppose you might be right too though due to hero of bladehold...but then both cards suck when we consider that, don't they?
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LEGACY:
RGOBLINSR
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Not 100% true, you wouldn't run manabarbs against Neo-caw-blade, or Tempered Steel.deck would you
I like manabarbs and had 4 of them in my blinder eons past, I just don't like them in a meta where white walkers can just laugh off your barbs....
Its like what a few people have already said, manabarbs is the nail in the coffin, its great when your winning but does nothing when if they are on 10+ life. I'll rather have Koth or Hero for my 4cc control tech
Enjoy Standard, Modern and Music (also some Pauper, Momir, Gaming, Animations and Legacy)? Then visit my channel:Here