Also @Poroto - There are no good "Treasures" in NPH at all
Err... Moltensteel Dragon is pretty good as a treasure mage target in any kind of semi-aggressive build of the deck, especially g2 after they board out removal. You want to have a mountain or two to cast it, but it's worth putting scalding tarns in if you're in mono-blue right now anyhow.
Why? Imagine you play: island, island, tarn.
Now your job is to convince your opponent that you're splinter-combo. If you can bluff it for a turn or two, you can keep him from tapping out for threats. Even vs aggro, it can buy a turn if you can convince him you're just waiting for him to tap out to combo him out.
Anyhow not saying it's a pile slam, or even synergistic, but treasure mage-dragon allows the deck a fairly aggressive start if you build/board in a way that supports it. And hey, if you want to be sure the path is clear for a mindslaver not to be shattered, Dragon is a good way to check
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Slingin' cardboard out of Yokohama, Japan. (if you're local and play EDH or want to test competitive, drop me a line!)
Hey guys, I need some input. In my G/W version of the deck (posted above), I use 4 explore. While it DEFINATELY is useful, especially when I drop two wildwoods or something, I may cut two. The problem is, if I cut two, what to put in. I'm split right now between Haze Frog or Wall of Tanglecord. I can see the frogs being useful all the time, but either way I'm probably gonna sideboard Tanglecords anyways. Anyone got a good idea? Maybe I should just keep 4 explore in there?
Well, specifically, you want fog effects, but you're running on a short clock. You won't need explore if you can just get to 10 mana. You can do that by using Caged Sun. It's one more mana than haze frog, but it's likely to give you enough mana to play the combo the turn after you play it (7 lands = 14 mana = 1 turn MS lock).
If you're really trying to up your land count, you could try cheap creatures like Viridian Shaman, Sylvan Ranger, or Harrow. It's a great catch-all card, Explore, but I figure you want a spell that's pointing you towards a win rather than a good cantrip.
EDIT: That just hit me too. You're trying to stall against aggro decks? Make them pay life for attacking with Norn's Annex. Atleast against aggro decks that don't main white, you'll stop them cold.
Norn's Annex is awful.. an aggro deck can just pay life to hurt you for more damage than they're taking. It's really bad. And if your opponent is playing white.. it's not even that bad cause they're paying only 1 ad not 2.
Norn's Annex is awful.. an aggro deck can just pay life to hurt you for more damage than they're taking. It's really bad. And if your opponent is playing white.. it's not even that bad cause they're paying only 1 ad not 2.
As Coblin stated, his deck runs 10 fog effects. He stops attack damage cold. With Norn's Annex, he can directly deal damage or just not have to waste a fog because they're not going to attack anyway.
Against decks like RDW and Kuldotha Red, the decks that this deck is very bad against, this really helps gunk up the board. With Tempered Steel decks, this isn't the best idea, but it means in order to deal decent damage, they have to dish out mana and that means less spells they're playing.
You're right that aggro decks will just pay to deal more damage, but they won't ever attack again when they pay 8 life to try to deal 15 damage and you fog. That gives you time to set up the combo.
Thats not a bad idea! But anyways, what do you guys think of the G/W version of the deck and this archetype as a whole? Because I can see this getting places, but more people should post their results, it seems pretty competitive.
EDIT: Heres my most current list. Its got a much more stable mana base, and removing the 4 Explore and putting in 4 Tanglesap was a good choice. I hardly noticed a change in tempo, and the extra fog effects are really nice.
I can try it out on MTGO when New Phyrexia, but for right now, I don't have the cards. I would say that Growth Spasm and Khlani Garden could help with presenting early blockers/ramp.
I dunno about growth Spasm, just because I've found that ramp, while helpful, doesnt do too much for you. Although the spawn tokens can block Sword of FaF, so thats nice. And Khalni Garden might be a good sieboard against aggro and such.
Probably the best time to discuss it, but after a small bit of testing, I feel confident about Caged Sun. It's an absolute powerhouse in the deck and makes life that much easier for players seeking to lock down players in a turn. I can also say the same about Phyrexian Metamorph in mirror or against other decks. It's just insane.
One big all around winner will be Spellskite. Been singing this card praises, but it's even better when you're playing it on the table. This guy catches every piece of spot removal that made things risky or slowed our decks down. With it in play, running out a turn 3 Grand Architect isn't so bad when followed by a spellskite. You have to kill that 0/4 before you can get to the combo piece. If you don't, it will play a treasure in hand and really get going. If spellskite doesn't die, cool! You can play 7 mana worth of stuff now.
Just had an EPIC match with my UW lock on a local tournament and i need to share it in this thread...
I was playing against a UG Xenograft - Turntimber ranger combo deck.
T5 he puts the combo and ends turn, on my turn i had six lands and two blue guys incluing and architect so i put the mindslaver lock.
I look at his hand and he has 3 lands and a Preordain, i tell him to play it...
Island
Forest
....
I tell him to put both on bottom and draw.... A HALIMAR EXCAVATOR!!!
Infinite milling and G3 for me!
I ended up second losing the final match against a good piloted caw-blade. The deck worked amazingly well, Tezzerets Gambit, Spellkite and Phyrexian metamorph are my need NPH additions.
Glad it's working out well for you. Phyrexian Metamorph must do wonders with Venser I wager.
However, even if we're making success, we still have problems. I propose we start thinking about what we could do about discard. It can wreck us pretty bad.
Now that you mention it, people were crazy about the venser-metamorph interaction, looks like nobody payed attention.
Discard is a real problem but after G2 if you get a leyline of sancity most black decks have no answer to it (even more considering that they will put more discard cards from sb for G2) I was running 3 copies in sb but for this tournament i included a fourth one
Alrighty, I've been on Hiatus from this deck, but I'm back, and there's a lot of work to be done... for a starter I'm gonna keep some of the old favorite items but really go for a whole new approach. So, for those who don't remember my original for this form, he's the classic I was working with.
So the original Plan stuck with mono-U tempo and ramp to combo, and lots of liferate, now though I don't think I can stay mono-U and I'm thinking I'm going to want more win-con and economy for the deck so I'm going U-B. I ran into a lot of problems when Permission got big, and the deck kinda fell apart, so it's time for me to play control now too.
If you're going that route, maybe you could main deck a copy of Caged Sun? With Tezzeret, you're going to run into it and it immediately helps your position in the deck. Why? It gets you closer to that 14 mana you need to power out a prototype portal and Mindslaver.
I personally like Myr Superion, but I have no room for him. He's not a constant if I don't have my Grand Architect. I won't say he's a bad card, but if you could, I'd suggest Spellskite or Phyrexian Metamorph as they'll come down and do a bit more for you.
Since you're going more control, wouldn't it be better to draw some cards too? You don't seem to have any card drawing or deck manipulation aside from Tezzeret. Admittedly, you have very few non-artifact spells, but it's a concern you might want to consider as the deck might move too slow.
yeah... actually the problem I'm running into is that I want to build a 100 card deck into 60 cards and am having a hard time deciding what gets cut and what's too important. There's just too much good stuff out there to run. also don't forget portal works for ubermyr too.
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I know and again, I say it's a great card in the deck. I just feel for what you're trying to do, things like Phyrexian Metamorph might do you more good. In fact, it's probably something you should consider over the Spined Thopter.
lols.... just thinking about putting a metamorph on a portal... that would be awesome. The reason I went with Spined is they 2-drop, are artifacts and are blue creatures. I love the idea of metamorph in there though... I'm gonna have to do some work... that was just kind of a rough draft.
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Thought I'd show the alterations I've made to my deck for those that haven't seen it. There's been a lot of testing done here and I'm happy to say the versatility factor gone up in my way of getting to the 14 mana. I've cut Everflowing Chalice because I feel more confident in my ability to get to the magic "6" mana that I need, especially with the addition of spellskite.
The deck works the same as the "Tempo" deck in the front page, for those that haven't seen it. You start off by building weeny creatures and filtering for threats. Specifically, you're playing Augury Owl and Preordain to dig through the deck. You play Grand Architect and ramp for mana to play big threats. Against removal heavy decks, Spellskite allows a turn 3 play for Architect. This allows for quick ramping with minimal amounts of punishment. Feel free to critique.
I'm liking spellskite so much for our decks. The ability to redirect a spell to it can mean that we protect our architect from the shot. This can be crucial to our game, and I am seeing this deck having more and more potential.
I may give spellskite a try in my U/G Slaver Lock deck. I played against a really annoying U/B infect deck yesterday that countered all my portals and kept bouncing my Luminarch Ascensions. I still won, but having spellskite would've made it happen much quicker. Manlands really helped, though.
It's actually a win condition if you catch someone with a Spellskite on the field. Make them target it with any type of spell or ability, then make them pay life over and over again to kill themselves by stacking Spellskite's ability.
That's also something to watch out for when playing as spellskite. Don't get caught in a "Target player's turn is under your control" while having a spellskite or it will kill you.
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Err... Moltensteel Dragon is pretty good as a treasure mage target in any kind of semi-aggressive build of the deck, especially g2 after they board out removal. You want to have a mountain or two to cast it, but it's worth putting scalding tarns in if you're in mono-blue right now anyhow.
Why? Imagine you play: island, island, tarn.
Now your job is to convince your opponent that you're splinter-combo. If you can bluff it for a turn or two, you can keep him from tapping out for threats. Even vs aggro, it can buy a turn if you can convince him you're just waiting for him to tap out to combo him out.
Anyhow not saying it's a pile slam, or even synergistic, but treasure mage-dragon allows the deck a fairly aggressive start if you build/board in a way that supports it. And hey, if you want to be sure the path is clear for a mindslaver not to be shattered, Dragon is a good way to check
If you're really trying to up your land count, you could try cheap creatures like Viridian Shaman, Sylvan Ranger, or Harrow. It's a great catch-all card, Explore, but I figure you want a spell that's pointing you towards a win rather than a good cantrip.
EDIT: That just hit me too. You're trying to stall against aggro decks? Make them pay life for attacking with Norn's Annex. Atleast against aggro decks that don't main white, you'll stop them cold.
JAMMIT DIM! I'm a DOCTOR not a DECKBUILDER!
As Coblin stated, his deck runs 10 fog effects. He stops attack damage cold. With Norn's Annex, he can directly deal damage or just not have to waste a fog because they're not going to attack anyway.
Against decks like RDW and Kuldotha Red, the decks that this deck is very bad against, this really helps gunk up the board. With Tempered Steel decks, this isn't the best idea, but it means in order to deal decent damage, they have to dish out mana and that means less spells they're playing.
You're right that aggro decks will just pay to deal more damage, but they won't ever attack again when they pay 8 life to try to deal 15 damage and you fog. That gives you time to set up the combo.
EDIT: Heres my most current list. Its got a much more stable mana base, and removing the 4 Explore and putting in 4 Tanglesap was a good choice. I hardly noticed a change in tempo, and the extra fog effects are really nice.
3 Prototype Portal
3 Mindslaver
PLANESWALKERS
2 Elspeth Tirel
INSTANTS
4 Beast Within
2 Blunt the Assault
4 Fog
4 Safe Passage
4 Tanglesap
4 Day of Judgement
ENCHANTMENTS
3 Journey to Nowhere
3 Luminarch Ascension
LANDS
6 Forest
6 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Stirring Wildwood
4 Sunpetal Grove
One big all around winner will be Spellskite. Been singing this card praises, but it's even better when you're playing it on the table. This guy catches every piece of spot removal that made things risky or slowed our decks down. With it in play, running out a turn 3 Grand Architect isn't so bad when followed by a spellskite. You have to kill that 0/4 before you can get to the combo piece. If you don't, it will play a treasure in hand and really get going. If spellskite doesn't die, cool! You can play 7 mana worth of stuff now.
I was playing against a UG Xenograft - Turntimber ranger combo deck.
T5 he puts the combo and ends turn, on my turn i had six lands and two blue guys incluing and architect so i put the mindslaver lock.
I look at his hand and he has 3 lands and a Preordain, i tell him to play it...
Island
Forest
....
I tell him to put both on bottom and draw.... A HALIMAR EXCAVATOR!!!
Infinite milling and G3 for me!
I ended up second losing the final match against a good piloted caw-blade. The deck worked amazingly well, Tezzerets Gambit, Spellkite and Phyrexian metamorph are my need NPH additions.
However, even if we're making success, we still have problems. I propose we start thinking about what we could do about discard. It can wreck us pretty bad.
Discard is a real problem but after G2 if you get a leyline of sancity most black decks have no answer to it (even more considering that they will put more discard cards from sb for G2) I was running 3 copies in sb but for this tournament i included a fourth one
4 Enclave Cryptologist
4 Thrummingbird
4 Lighthouse Chronologist
4 Sea Gate Oracle
4 Grand Architect
Artifact Creatures
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Artifacts
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Prototype Portal
4 Mindslaver
3 Contagion Engine
4 Halimar Depths
3 Tectonic Edge
2 Misty Rainforest
14 Island
3 Thada Adel
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
4 Coralhelm Commander
2 Cancel
4 Mana Leak
So the original Plan stuck with mono-U tempo and ramp to combo, and lots of liferate, now though I don't think I can stay mono-U and I'm thinking I'm going to want more win-con and economy for the deck so I'm going U-B. I ran into a lot of problems when Permission got big, and the deck kinda fell apart, so it's time for me to play control now too.
2 Halimar Depths
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Drowned Catacomb
4 Creeping Tar Pit
9 Island
1 Swamp
4 Grand Architect
Artiface Creatures (7)
3 Spined Thopter
4 Myr Superion
Artifacts (12)
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Prototype Portal
2 Mindslaver
2 Contagion Engine
3 Mana Leak
2 Stoic Rebuttal
4 Go for the Throat
3 Duress
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
I'm thinking the new list still needs some work, but that's the general idea of what I'm working with.
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
I personally like Myr Superion, but I have no room for him. He's not a constant if I don't have my Grand Architect. I won't say he's a bad card, but if you could, I'd suggest Spellskite or Phyrexian Metamorph as they'll come down and do a bit more for you.
Since you're going more control, wouldn't it be better to draw some cards too? You don't seem to have any card drawing or deck manipulation aside from Tezzeret. Admittedly, you have very few non-artifact spells, but it's a concern you might want to consider as the deck might move too slow.
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
4 Augury Owl
4 Grand Architect
3 Treasure Mage
Artifact Creatures (6)
3 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Thopter Assembly
1 Myr Battlesphere
Artifacts (11)
3 Prototype Portal
2 Mindslaver
1 Caged Sun
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Preordain
2 Distant Memories
2 Jace Beleren
Lands (24)
3 Halimar Depths
4 Misty Rainforest
17 Island
2 Thada Adel
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Into the Roil
4 Deprive
1 Contagion Engine
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Ratchet Bomb
Thought I'd show the alterations I've made to my deck for those that haven't seen it. There's been a lot of testing done here and I'm happy to say the versatility factor gone up in my way of getting to the 14 mana. I've cut Everflowing Chalice because I feel more confident in my ability to get to the magic "6" mana that I need, especially with the addition of spellskite.
The deck works the same as the "Tempo" deck in the front page, for those that haven't seen it. You start off by building weeny creatures and filtering for threats. Specifically, you're playing Augury Owl and Preordain to dig through the deck. You play Grand Architect and ramp for mana to play big threats. Against removal heavy decks, Spellskite allows a turn 3 play for Architect. This allows for quick ramping with minimal amounts of punishment. Feel free to critique.
4 Seachrome Coast
3 Celestial Colonnade
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Misty Rainforest
5 Island
4 Inkmoth Nexus
Creatures
1 Triskelion
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Grand Architect
3 Thrummingbird
3 Treasure Mage
2 Lighthouse Chronologist
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Contagion Engine
2 Contagion Clasp
4 Everflowing Chalice
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Tumble Magnet
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Mindslaver
3 Preordain
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Tezzeret's Gambit
Any suggestions???
By the way.. why are my cards not appearing with the link to the image?
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Scars Have Torn My Soul: A Tale of Mirrodin
Ch. 1 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=283875
Ch. 2 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=304673
Ch.3 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6409825#post6409825
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That's also something to watch out for when playing as spellskite. Don't get caught in a "Target player's turn is under your control" while having a spellskite or it will kill you.