I think a big issue with GrixisTwin and other URx builds is that it just folds to something like Memoricide. Where's the reach/alternate win cons? I know a lot of people have talked about dropping ascension, but l've been playing u/r pyrotwin and I've found quite a few times where having a quested ascension has allowed me to stave off control plays from black by just sending burn to the dome. Having the alternate wincons makes it much more difficult for someone to simply say, attack the exarch-twin combo, win the game.
put suture priest in play with spellskite or mental misstep backup. They go infi, they die. Nice feature: it all comes into play earlier because of cmc.
PyroTwin decks are playing 8-12 burn spells, gg Suture Priest
1. Good Decks Play With Good Cards
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
That doesn't actually work since you only get to steal the creature until the end of turn.
On one hand, you could steal the Extarch in response to the Spinter Twin being played to fizzle the aura. You could also let them make all their dooders, attack, steal the Extarch, it untaps with Act of Agression's ability and you could make the same amount of tokens to block with. After that though you give the Extarch back at the end of the turn so you will not be able to untap and kill him with it.
As for actual answers to the combo there will be Despise and Dismember from the new set. There will also be Inquisition, Duress, counters, removal, etc. Extarch does get by Lightning Bolt pretty well and they won't go for the combo without stripping away your hand first. Therefore, the best ways to combat it are to run your own hand disruption to slow them down, kill them first, or work on their questionable manabase.
actually you can steal the creature, make enough creatures, then during the end phase, all the exile triggers stack, and so in response to any of those triggers, you can make any number of dudes that will stay in play until the end of your next turn.
Everyone who is saying "zmog i'll just play XX against it whats teh problem?"....you can say that about any card.
saying "zmog i'll just play Duress against Jace whats teh problem noobs??" sounds a bit stupid doesnt it? The thing is its just situational and most of the time will lead to you do NOTHING to keep you mana open in fear of them setting it off.
Everyone who is saying "zmog i'll just play XX against it whats teh problem?"....you can say that about any card.
saying "zmog i'll just play Duress against Jace whats teh problem noobs??" sounds a bit stupid doesnt it? The thing is its just situational and most of the time will lead to you do NOTHING to keep you mana open in fear of them setting it off.
As an Elfvine player, I couldn't care less about this combo. I can do whatever I need or want to do, and then Copperhorn Scout will re-open up all the mana in the world for Naturalize and Beast Within to ruin somebody's day. ZOMG, counter it!!! Well, the same can be said about anything. Hope you have that counter and mana available to stop 8 cards.
As an Elfvine player, I couldn't care less about this combo. I can do whatever I need or want to do, and then Copperhorn Scout will re-open up all the mana in the world for Naturalize and Beast Within to ruin somebody's day. ZOMG, counter it!!! Well, the same can be said about anything. Hope you have that counter and mana available to stop 8 cards.
And then before the declare attackers step your opponent flashes in Deceiver Exarch, like he was already going to, taping your Copperhorn Scout, and you concede because you failed to see such an obv play. Must be nice.
Seriously this thread is so pointless. No one is posting anything constructive, you either say the deck is bad and don't give reasons or you give stupid plays that no good player would make or you post bad cards. Then 90% of the people who think the deck is good just say the deck is good.
Only a fraction of this and every other PyroTwin/DeceiverTwin thread is even constructive. I just can't wait till the season starts so we can get the results and people will respect the deck and try to make it better.
And then before the declare attackers step your opponent flashes in Deceiver Exarch, like he was already going to, taping your Copperhorn Scout, and you concede because you failed to see such an obv play. Must be nice.
Seriously this thread is so pointless. No one is posting anything constructive, you either say the deck is bad and don't give reasons or you give stupid plays that no good player would make or you post bad cards. Then 90% of the people who think the deck is good just say the deck is good.
Only a fraction of this and every other PyroTwin/DeceiverTwin thread is even constructive. I just can't wait till the season starts so we can get the results and people will respect the deck and try to make it better.
And then before the declare attackers step your opponent flashes in Deceiver Exarch, like he was already going to, taping your Copperhorn Scout, and you concede because you failed to see such an obv play. Must be nice.
Seriously this thread is so pointless. No one is posting anything constructive, you either say the deck is bad and don't give reasons or you give stupid plays that no good player would make or you post bad cards. Then 90% of the people who think the deck is good just say the deck is good.
Only a fraction of this and every other PyroTwin/DeceiverTwin thread is even constructive. I just can't wait till the season starts so we can get the results and people will respect the deck and try to make it better.
The reason these threads are pointless is because most of the given answers do actually work a lot of the time and a lot of the time perhaps they don't work because the Twin player has an answer back. There is no real silver bullet to kill the deck that can't be disrupted somehow. Similarly there is a ton of disruption naturally or very easily run in almost every deck that could disrupt it.
So it does come down to people thinking if it is a deck or not. I can give good reasons why while I think it is a deck that might catch some stuff unaware I don't think it is an very good deck. Most of this is based of probability. I've play tested about 4 different lists and was not impressed, but I'm sure people have gotten different results. I don't think it isn't amazing because of some specific answer, but rather just a combination of factors including consistency of the combo and amount of disruption that can interact with it. The combo isn't bad (it is auto win in one turn effectively) but the decks so far haven't been very good.
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Cool beans. Between 4 Copperhorn Scouts, 3-4 Green Sun's Zenith, and 4 Fauna Shaman (though, admittedly, I never Fauna for a Scout), I've almost always have 2 or more. We can dance around in circles.
And then there's Lead the Stampede to help me find more.
And I don't even NED Scout to have an abundance of mana. I can still play what I need to, swarm you, and have left over mana to make your day miserable.
Cool beans. Between 4 Copperhorn Scouts, 3-4 Green Sun's Zenith, and 4 Fauna Shaman (though, admittedly, I never Fauna for a Scout), I've almost always have 2 or more. We can dance around in circles.
And then there's Lead the Stampede to help me find more.
And I don't even NED Scout to have an abundance of mana. I can still play what I need to, swarm you, and have left over mana to make your day miserable.
Yep, your deck is magical and always has everything it could ever need in multiples by turn three. Thats why Elves is a HUGE deck in standard, and has topped so many large events. So back to reality, there is no circles to dance, ima lay this out for you in one straight line.
4 Copperhorn Scouts:
Ok.
3-4 Green Suns Zenith for Copperhorn:
This is not only a awful play, and an entire waste of a turn two, and a card.
4 Fauna Shaman:
Shaman comes down turn 2, so it can search turn three, which is when you would want this copperhorn to be attacking.
x4 Lead the Stampede:
Playing this on turn 3 will save you on the play maybe, you also could just not have any manadorks in play, due to the burn and bounce the deck plays. Not to mention you again have to have 2 Copperhorns, in play, at the same time.
I'm sorry but this is getting old, people just shout things without taking actual game conditions into mind. You can say whatever you want, but have you tested this info you are slinging? I have, on paper with proxies and on MWS, and I know what I need to look out for, or at least have an idea. You are just saying things, then when you finally put your ideas to practice in tournament play without testing them, you will be sadly mistaken, and then more than likely blame it on the opponents luck instead of being ill prepared.
If you have anymore invalid points to throw at me fine, but next time at least think on a turn by turn basis. Not just a this will happen.
Then they wait a extra turn or two and roil your Torpor Orb, if they didn't spell pierce it.
You realize you're doing the exact same thing you're complaining about everyone else doing, right? They propose something and you magically have the answer to that in your hand every single time.
I think we're done proposing implausible scenarios on both sides.
/sarcasm
PyroTwin decks are playing 8-12 burn spells, gg Suture Priest
CB Black Edrazi BC
UW Steelshaper Delver WU
BGR Loam Pox RGB
Standard
BGR Cutthroat Aristocrats RGB
Tiamat, Chromatic Dragon RWUBG
Planeswalker - Tiamat
[+1] Sit on Nicol Bolas
[+0] Wait for him to beg for mercy, rule the multiverse.
[-7] Not necessary, she is the ultimate.
Combust is the only way I can think of that is an sure-fire way of stopping it since they most likely will be running numerous counterspells.
Every color has easy access to disruption and in general the combo is pretty weak if you stop it at all.
actually you can steal the creature, make enough creatures, then during the end phase, all the exile triggers stack, and so in response to any of those triggers, you can make any number of dudes that will stay in play until the end of your next turn.
saying "zmog i'll just play Duress against Jace whats teh problem noobs??" sounds a bit stupid doesnt it? The thing is its just situational and most of the time will lead to you do NOTHING to keep you mana open in fear of them setting it off.
As an Elfvine player, I couldn't care less about this combo. I can do whatever I need or want to do, and then Copperhorn Scout will re-open up all the mana in the world for Naturalize and Beast Within to ruin somebody's day. ZOMG, counter it!!! Well, the same can be said about anything. Hope you have that counter and mana available to stop 8 cards.
And then before the declare attackers step your opponent flashes in Deceiver Exarch, like he was already going to, taping your Copperhorn Scout, and you concede because you failed to see such an obv play. Must be nice.
Seriously this thread is so pointless. No one is posting anything constructive, you either say the deck is bad and don't give reasons or you give stupid plays that no good player would make or you post bad cards. Then 90% of the people who think the deck is good just say the deck is good.
Only a fraction of this and every other PyroTwin/DeceiverTwin thread is even constructive. I just can't wait till the season starts so we can get the results and people will respect the deck and try to make it better.
Welcome to teh Internets.
The reason these threads are pointless is because most of the given answers do actually work a lot of the time and a lot of the time perhaps they don't work because the Twin player has an answer back. There is no real silver bullet to kill the deck that can't be disrupted somehow. Similarly there is a ton of disruption naturally or very easily run in almost every deck that could disrupt it.
So it does come down to people thinking if it is a deck or not. I can give good reasons why while I think it is a deck that might catch some stuff unaware I don't think it is an very good deck. Most of this is based of probability. I've play tested about 4 different lists and was not impressed, but I'm sure people have gotten different results. I don't think it isn't amazing because of some specific answer, but rather just a combination of factors including consistency of the combo and amount of disruption that can interact with it. The combo isn't bad (it is auto win in one turn effectively) but the decks so far haven't been very good.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
And then there's Lead the Stampede to help me find more.
And I don't even NED Scout to have an abundance of mana. I can still play what I need to, swarm you, and have left over mana to make your day miserable.
Yep, your deck is magical and always has everything it could ever need in multiples by turn three. Thats why Elves is a HUGE deck in standard, and has topped so many large events. So back to reality, there is no circles to dance, ima lay this out for you in one straight line.
4 Copperhorn Scouts:
Ok.
3-4 Green Suns Zenith for Copperhorn:
This is not only a awful play, and an entire waste of a turn two, and a card.
4 Fauna Shaman:
Shaman comes down turn 2, so it can search turn three, which is when you would want this copperhorn to be attacking.
x4 Lead the Stampede:
Playing this on turn 3 will save you on the play maybe, you also could just not have any manadorks in play, due to the burn and bounce the deck plays. Not to mention you again have to have 2 Copperhorns, in play, at the same time.
I'm sorry but this is getting old, people just shout things without taking actual game conditions into mind. You can say whatever you want, but have you tested this info you are slinging? I have, on paper with proxies and on MWS, and I know what I need to look out for, or at least have an idea. You are just saying things, then when you finally put your ideas to practice in tournament play without testing them, you will be sadly mistaken, and then more than likely blame it on the opponents luck instead of being ill prepared.
If you have anymore invalid points to throw at me fine, but next time at least think on a turn by turn basis. Not just a this will happen.
Then they wait a extra turn or two and roil your Torpor Orb, if they didn't spell pierce it.
You realize you're doing the exact same thing you're complaining about everyone else doing, right? They propose something and you magically have the answer to that in your hand every single time.
I think we're done proposing implausible scenarios on both sides.