Although the top tables seem set the great thing is there are lots of ways to attack with Valakut on the decline. While pure tournament ringers might not like it if you take it down to a lower level there is tons of variety both online and to even the most Competative FNM's.
I keep close track of the top tier decks, but play on an FNM level. Speaking from my experiences, standard is pretty diverse, with 12+ archtypes in groups as small at 25-30. Sure, they aren't all tier 1, and some people only play Caw-Blade or Valakut, but there is enough variety, not because of lack of funds, to creating a really dynamic meta.
I imagine a lot of people share this experience at FNMs, but a lot of people complaining play Magic Online or on MWS.
There are two levels to be considered when you're talking about the "meta".
1. The competitive level. The decks that have the most top showings will be the ones that statistically do the best, with the exception of people who play other decks that are meant to handle these top decks. Sure, Caw-Blade and RUG dominated a tournament recently, but just a few weeks ago there was another big tournament that had U/B and Valakut taking up half the top 8. People just play the decks that should be able to do better with because reason tells them it should do better than decks with less favorable matchups (the reason that control, such as U/W and U/B, are considered dead archetypes by many).
2. The local meta. My local FNM consists of ~50 people, and while there are more than enough of the "competitive" players to take all the top 8 slots and then some, they don't always get there. Two of my friends, playing Valakut and Boros, dropped out halfway through the swiss, while the top 8 consisted of RUG, U/W Caw-Blade, U/W Control, U/B Control, Esper Tezzeret, B/G Infect, Jund, and U/W Architect. The last four decks there contained no Jace. It's not that jank and tier 1.5/2 decks can't do well, they just need more luck/skill, and to not be forced to play against tier 1 decks all day.
The problem begins when someone takes a tournament quality deck to a local (casual arena) and dominates. Then someone else does the same thing to combat the first guy, and very quickly your casual scene is overrun by 20 copies of Jace. This doesn't happen everywhere, but is happening in enough places that it is adversely affecting the Game.
The problem begins when someone takes a tournament quality deck to a local (casual arena) and dominates. Then someone else does the same thing to combat the first guy, and very quickly your casual scene is overrun by 20 copies of Jace. This doesn't happen everywhere, but is happening in enough places that it is adversely affecting the Game.
My local meta is a 20+ players at FNM
There are a lots of Naya, CAW decks, Valakut, BR Vampire, BU Infect, Kudoltha red, so i get to test a lot vs meta decks.
There is also a lots of other decks, Grand Architect and lots of experimental decks (Liquimetal etc) that do a lot of testing.. so i find it a lot of fun to test my deck there.
That is why i say that standard atm isn't dull, everybody is testing a lot tier decks or anti meta decks, or just kitchen decks trying to make it.
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You should be thankful that your local pool is so diverse. But despite that, the general experience is that the format has crystalized around one card. Whether you believe that or not, the pros have noticed, and many people have fled the casual scene because its bled over.
The days of Jund running amok weren't so bad because you could always afford to fight fire with fire. Now you have to fight bankroll with bankroll.
Just come back from a 250+ Regionals event up here in Seattle. What A Blast! So many rogue decks or tier 2 decks making a good showing. I know for a fact a mono red artifact koth deck top 8'd along with elves (7-0-2) and a mono green eldrazi. I'm pretty sure I saw a few other rogues/tier 2 up at the top tables. I myself was at the top table most of the day playing jumanji (if that's what you wacky kids are calling it nowadays) and I ended up in 10th. I lost a match due to arriving late (smoking like a moron) and mulled to 4 on the play on "game 2".
It was great - rogue decks were everywhere and cawblade/valakut/RUG players were having difficult games all around the room. Honestly - as a player that's been around since onslaught - this standard is fantastic.
The reason I post this is because honestly I dont think this meta is stale in the least. I understand peoples frustration which I think stems partly from budget difficulties and partly from a lack of enjoyment/overplay of the current "tier 1" deck. But honestly people - what do you expect from a card game? There will be tier one decks and powerful cards in any given format. This is especially true for a format that only has a card pool that extends for two sets.
Most of the posts in this thread I've read decrying the state of type 2 usually seem to site a lack of a particular archetype that previously existed in type 2 as a primary reason for staleness. I don't think that just because someone's preferred archetype doesn't exist or you can't play your pet color scheme that the format is stale. It just means the format doesn't appeal to You.
That's obviously regrettable but hey this time last year G/B/R was the dominate force. Now U/W is the dominate color scheme. Who knows what next year will bring.
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Currently Playing in T2: Esper Control
Currently Playing in Modern: U/W Control
I played during the original Mirrodin block, actually, so no, it's not. I think today's article on the mothership from LaPille is a hilariously predictable and late response to the whole Jace thing, though I generally agree with him.
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yeah, the issue with standard right now isnt that one deck is dominating the format entirely. its that a single card is dominating the format. The fact that in order to play any real "competitive" deck in standard right now means you have to invest $400 in a playset of mindscuptors is what makes it a stale format.
that said i prefer this to jund as at an FNM level now you dont run into jace decks until top 8 ect. where against jund you would go to fnm play through 4 rounds of jund 1 round of jacerator (the most annoying deck in history) and then finally play against a typical RDW list cookie cut from the rest. doesnt sound fun to me, only got better once U/w control showed up and it was then 4 rounds of jund 2 rounds of U/w.
No, the current standard isn't any different from last year around this time. There were a few decks that dominated standard but now and again a meta-hate deck would break into the top 8 somewhere. The top decks would change their 75 by 5-10 cards, and the cycle would repeat.
Standard is not dull right now, the meta is constantly shifting, that's not dull. People forget CAW blade is only about two months old. It's a solid deck, like Jund or Faeries, so people will either mod the deck to beat the mirror or invent a deck to smash the meta and it shifts again.
this is by far the dullest standard season since I started playing(during Time spiral block).Just look at last two gps,not even during Jund reign did you have the hole top8 full of jund,hell even when faeries didn't make to stand alone top8 TWICE.Can't wait until jace rotates but Wotc is probably palning to piss me of by reprinting that bastard Jace,the standard ruiner.
this is interesting, but not viable for standart, if standart starts looking like legacy this is not standart anymore, but if wizard wants to keep mindsculptor better they print red, green or black answer to PWs, or, print overpowered cards for all colors.
Or make the easier thing, ban jace + Primeval titan or make it restricted (first standart restricted card?).
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I vote for the removal of mythic rarity, primeval titan and Jace, the mindsculptor.
this is by far the dullest standard season since I started playing(during Time spiral block).Just look at last two gps,not even during Jund reign did you have the hole top8 full of jund,hell even when faeries didn't make to stand alone top8 TWICE.Can't wait until jace rotates but Wotc is probably palning to piss me of by reprinting that bastard Jace,the standard ruiner.
Tom lapille said on Friday on the mothership that wizards know how powerful jace is, and that they admit it was a mistake making it so powerful. So for them reprinting it in m12 would fall in the category of not going to happen.
But seriously he is poweful, but I never have had a problem facing jace decks, so I do not dislike him as much as you do.
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This is one of the first standard formats in recent memory that the top deck in the format is the one that rewards player skill the most. Most people don't seem to appreciate just how skill-intensive CawBlade is, and while its numbers are generally favorable across the board, it is only by the slimmest of margins, as there are very few decks in the mainstream metagame that are strictly dominated by CawBlade. Even against Valakut, a slight misstep will cost you the game. I see nothing wrong with this format.
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We are the middle children of history. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War is a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.
This is one of the first standard formats in recent memory that the top deck in the format is the one that rewards player skill the most. Most people don't seem to appreciate just how skill-intensive CawBlade is, and while its numbers are generally favorable across the board, it is only by the slimmest of margins, as there are very few decks in the mainstream metagame that are strictly dominated by CawBlade. Even against Valakut, a slight misstep will cost you the game. I see nothing wrong with this format.
With all due respect, I disagree. The only deck I see in the current format that is somewhat difficult to play (compared with past formats) is RUG.
Caw Blade being a "tough" deck to play is a joke. The mirror comes down to who lands Jace firstly and goes through cards to get Gidjun. Tell me how it takes skill to be the first to land Jace while the other player doesn't draw one or counters please.
I actually have become a worse player during this metagame. I used to be a decent player, believe it or not but I feel that I am getting dumber at the game. Partially my fault for playing Valakut, GW Quest, and Boros for the most part.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
This is one of the first standard formats in recent memory that the top deck in the format is the one that rewards player skill the most. Most people don't seem to appreciate just how skill-intensive CawBlade is, and while its numbers are generally favorable across the board, it is only by the slimmest of margins, as there are very few decks in the mainstream metagame that are strictly dominated by CawBlade. Even against Valakut, a slight misstep will cost you the game. I see nothing wrong with this format.
I have to disagree with this post, respectfully of course. Caw-blade is almost auto pilot once you have played it a couple dozen times. Very few real choices to be made. Has decent to very good results against every other deck in standard right now. Caw-blade reminds me of jund to some degree.
Now playing against caw-blade and winning, that is skill intensive. From the right tweeks to a deck for the local meta to not making stupid play mistakes.
This is one of the first standard formats in recent memory that the top deck in the format is the one that rewards player skill the most. Most people don't seem to appreciate just how skill-intensive CawBlade is, and while its numbers are generally favorable across the board, it is only by the slimmest of margins, as there are very few decks in the mainstream metagame that are strictly dominated by CawBlade. Even against Valakut, a slight misstep will cost you the game. I see nothing wrong with this format.
The deck doesn't have to have amazing matchups against every other deck to be dominating. All it needs to have are more favorable matchups than any other deck in the format. It's nice when we get a format that's Rock-Paper-Scissors in that each deck counters the other, but right now we're bsaically looking at Rock-Rock-Valakut.
It's probably one of the better ones I've played in. It's balanced, not heads and shoulders above the rest. No one deck is truly dominant (*cough, i don't think many of you played in Urza's, nor Raffinty). Picking your spots in the meta delivers all the right results. There's variety, you can have success with tons of different decks. It tests your patience, deckbuilding and sideboarding skills to deal with what? 11 different decks on average?
Most big tournaments (10+ rounds) i'm seeing 6-7 different deck types... 3-4 Caw, Vamps, RUG, Boros, Maybe a Tezz or Architect, Valakut (although, I've dodged that MU a ton), sometimes U/B infect or RDW or Goblins/KRed... Variety? Dull? Hardly.
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Eh, I'm having fun with vampires. Since I started playing standard in the Alara block, I've always built the best budgety aggro decks I can. It's fun to watch $.25 cards smash Jace to pieces.
"I observe the slights and degradations cast by arrogant persons upon
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With all due respect, I disagree. The only deck I see in the current format that is somewhat difficult to play (compared with past formats) is RUG.
Caw Blade being a "tough" deck to play is a joke. The mirror comes down to who lands Jace firstly and goes through cards to get Gidjun. Tell me how it takes skill to be the first to land Jace while the other player doesn't draw one or counters please.
I actually have become a worse player during this metagame. I used to be a decent player, believe it or not but I feel that I am getting dumber at the game. Partially my fault for playing Valakut, GW Quest, and Boros for the most part.
RUG and Caw Blade are both difficult decks to play correctly, you are grossly oversimplifying the match, if I could play Caw Mirrors all day where they just mindlessly throw out Jace on 4 I would be pretty happy (from a winning standpoint)
Every standard when a dominating card/deck appears its always the same quest ions. Was jund standard dull..... was faeries standard dull....... was Tarmogoyf standard dull....... because goyf was seen in most decks and jund was A LOT of the meta. Right now standard just consists of different decks just they all run jace. In my opinion this standard is fine and can be played without jace its just that people prefer him. Boros still placed in a t8 so if more people play boros that means more places :D. It's ok and still not as bad as when the same deck was seen over and over. At least we have RUG , Caw Blade, Boros, U/B control, rather than Jund, Jund, Jund, Boros.
This standard is dreadfully boring. I really hope New Phyrexia brings us at least one new competitive archetype in GB infect. Or something. Just print a Jace and Valakut hoser and be done with it wizards.
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Beauty of mine, sit before me. Let me peruse you and remember you... always like this.
Every standard when a dominating card/deck appears its always the same quest ions. Was jund standard dull..... was faeries standard dull....... was Tarmogoyf standard dull....... because goyf was seen in most decks and jund was A LOT of the meta. Right now standard just consists of different decks just they all run jace. In my opinion this standard is fine and can be played without jace its just that people prefer him. Boros still placed in a t8 so if more people play boros that means more places :D. It's ok and still not as bad as when the same deck was seen over and over. At least we have RUG , Caw Blade, Boros, U/B control, rather than Jund, Jund, Jund, Boros.
Tarmogoyf didn't really do much to standard. It just got splashed in RDW that already ran Pendelhaven and other previously existant green decks. And with Jund we had GWx midrange, URX control, Boros Bushwacker, RDW, and such. Now there are only two decks worth playing, and they share a U shell.
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That was pretty interesting. But dropping a warship on me is cheating. Take it back!
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I keep close track of the top tier decks, but play on an FNM level. Speaking from my experiences, standard is pretty diverse, with 12+ archtypes in groups as small at 25-30. Sure, they aren't all tier 1, and some people only play Caw-Blade or Valakut, but there is enough variety, not because of lack of funds, to creating a really dynamic meta.
I imagine a lot of people share this experience at FNMs, but a lot of people complaining play Magic Online or on MWS.
The problem begins when someone takes a tournament quality deck to a local (casual arena) and dominates. Then someone else does the same thing to combat the first guy, and very quickly your casual scene is overrun by 20 copies of Jace. This doesn't happen everywhere, but is happening in enough places that it is adversely affecting the Game.
:symrw::symrw: Titan Mimic (tec)
My local meta is a 20+ players at FNM
There are a lots of Naya, CAW decks, Valakut, BR Vampire, BU Infect, Kudoltha red, so i get to test a lot vs meta decks.
There is also a lots of other decks, Grand Architect and lots of experimental decks (Liquimetal etc) that do a lot of testing.. so i find it a lot of fun to test my deck there.
That is why i say that standard atm isn't dull, everybody is testing a lot tier decks or anti meta decks, or just kitchen decks trying to make it.
:symw::symb:Steel Wb Weenie
The days of Jund running amok weren't so bad because you could always afford to fight fire with fire. Now you have to fight bankroll with bankroll.
:symrw::symrw: Titan Mimic (tec)
Currently Playing:
UW UW Control
WR Tempered Steel
GR Valakut Ramp
G Elves
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
It was great - rogue decks were everywhere and cawblade/valakut/RUG players were having difficult games all around the room. Honestly - as a player that's been around since onslaught - this standard is fantastic.
The reason I post this is because honestly I dont think this meta is stale in the least. I understand peoples frustration which I think stems partly from budget difficulties and partly from a lack of enjoyment/overplay of the current "tier 1" deck. But honestly people - what do you expect from a card game? There will be tier one decks and powerful cards in any given format. This is especially true for a format that only has a card pool that extends for two sets.
Most of the posts in this thread I've read decrying the state of type 2 usually seem to site a lack of a particular archetype that previously existed in type 2 as a primary reason for staleness. I don't think that just because someone's preferred archetype doesn't exist or you can't play your pet color scheme that the format is stale. It just means the format doesn't appeal to You.
That's obviously regrettable but hey this time last year G/B/R was the dominate force. Now U/W is the dominate color scheme. Who knows what next year will bring.
Currently Playing in Modern: U/W Control
"Stoned players can't attack, block, or play spells or abilities."
that said i prefer this to jund as at an FNM level now you dont run into jace decks until top 8 ect. where against jund you would go to fnm play through 4 rounds of jund 1 round of jacerator (the most annoying deck in history) and then finally play against a typical RDW list cookie cut from the rest. doesnt sound fun to me, only got better once U/w control showed up and it was then 4 rounds of jund 2 rounds of U/w.
Gfast animals slow shildrenG
51-18-4 (retired as of 6-4-11)
Standard is not dull right now, the meta is constantly shifting, that's not dull. People forget CAW blade is only about two months old. It's a solid deck, like Jund or Faeries, so people will either mod the deck to beat the mirror or invent a deck to smash the meta and it shifts again.
If they reprint mindsculptor on M12, they have to reprint artifact lands, tarmogoyf, goblin welder, dark ritual, tombstalker, maelstrom pulse, pithing needle, dark confidant.
If you want to give owerpowered crap to blue give all colors good cards and we will have stupid powercreeped meta where all colors have over the edge cards.
- Do you like my turn one dark tutelage or inquisition of kozilek followed by dark confidant?
- Do you like this tarmogoyf alongside with my vengevines?
- oh look! I just exchanged my land for a steel hellkite you countered EOT and im attacking next turn!
- so, lets pulse or needle this jace out of my way and attack you with my pets.
this is interesting, but not viable for standart, if standart starts looking like legacy this is not standart anymore, but if wizard wants to keep mindsculptor better they print red, green or black answer to PWs, or, print overpowered cards for all colors.
Or make the easier thing, ban jace + Primeval titan or make it restricted (first standart restricted card?).
Favorite cards = goblin welder, smokestack, chronatog, ,form of the dragon.
60% spike - 30% johny - 10% timmy
Tom lapille said on Friday on the mothership that wizards know how powerful jace is, and that they admit it was a mistake making it so powerful. So for them reprinting it in m12 would fall in the category of not going to happen.
But seriously he is poweful, but I never have had a problem facing jace decks, so I do not dislike him as much as you do.
Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
Love is Emphatic, cards need to be played
Hailing from the BA, accumulating CA"
With all due respect, I disagree. The only deck I see in the current format that is somewhat difficult to play (compared with past formats) is RUG.
Caw Blade being a "tough" deck to play is a joke. The mirror comes down to who lands Jace firstly and goes through cards to get Gidjun. Tell me how it takes skill to be the first to land Jace while the other player doesn't draw one or counters please.
I actually have become a worse player during this metagame. I used to be a decent player, believe it or not but I feel that I am getting dumber at the game. Partially my fault for playing Valakut, GW Quest, and Boros for the most part.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I have to disagree with this post, respectfully of course. Caw-blade is almost auto pilot once you have played it a couple dozen times. Very few real choices to be made. Has decent to very good results against every other deck in standard right now. Caw-blade reminds me of jund to some degree.
Now playing against caw-blade and winning, that is skill intensive. From the right tweeks to a deck for the local meta to not making stupid play mistakes.
The deck doesn't have to have amazing matchups against every other deck to be dominating. All it needs to have are more favorable matchups than any other deck in the format. It's nice when we get a format that's Rock-Paper-Scissors in that each deck counters the other, but right now we're bsaically looking at Rock-Rock-Valakut.
EDH:
UBGThe MimeoplasmUBG
Fixed for the lol.
If you want skill, see 2006. Deckbuilding was an art back then. Now it's just a mix of top 10 most expensive cards.
gideon
jace
primeval titan
epic beatsticksword"
not really much skill when all the top decks are online for people to copy from
all i see on the leaderboards is U/W half the time...
cant wait for current standard to rotate out
Modern:R 8Whack R|W White Knights W
TBH the last 2 times I played on a truly competitive level were during Ravnica/Kamingawa and Kamingawa/Mirrodin.
(and obviously, mirrodin/onslaught, odyssey/onslaught, urza's/tempest... blah blah blah).
It's probably one of the better ones I've played in. It's balanced, not heads and shoulders above the rest. No one deck is truly dominant (*cough, i don't think many of you played in Urza's, nor Raffinty). Picking your spots in the meta delivers all the right results. There's variety, you can have success with tons of different decks. It tests your patience, deckbuilding and sideboarding skills to deal with what? 11 different decks on average?
Most big tournaments (10+ rounds) i'm seeing 6-7 different deck types... 3-4 Caw, Vamps, RUG, Boros, Maybe a Tezz or Architect, Valakut (although, I've dodged that MU a ton), sometimes U/B infect or RDW or Goblins/KRed... Variety? Dull? Hardly.
laborers, the poor, and upon negroes, and the like;
All these--all the meanness and agony without end I sitting look out upon,
See, hear, and am silent."
BR B/r Vampires (Standard)
GWU Angus Mackenzie(EDH)
UW Venser Control (Legacy)
RUG and Caw Blade are both difficult decks to play correctly, you are grossly oversimplifying the match, if I could play Caw Mirrors all day where they just mindlessly throw out Jace on 4 I would be pretty happy (from a winning standpoint)
Heroes of the Plane Studios
Tarmogoyf didn't really do much to standard. It just got splashed in RDW that already ran Pendelhaven and other previously existant green decks. And with Jund we had GWx midrange, URX control, Boros Bushwacker, RDW, and such. Now there are only two decks worth playing, and they share a U shell.