I know alot of people have been thinking about this so I thought it might be a good idea to have a brainstorm thread where we put down some pretty raw ideas and see if anything sounds like its worth developing/testing. The metagame is currently squeezed in a vice between Jace, the Mindsculptor on one hand and Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle on the other. We know what the usual suspects are (with key cards in parentheses), but just for quick review:
thats the undisputed tier 1. there are some playable aggro decks as well. Boros, Vampires, and mono-red all work and occasionally place, but they seem more tier 2 in this metagame based purely on top 8 finishes. Vengevine decks haven't been seen much in top 8 for a long time either. definitely tier 2. UB is around, but pretty rogue, also tier 2. thats where we stand. how do we attack this metagame? I'll provide a couple of ideas but i'm hoping this thread won't just be criticism of my early brainstorming. i do appreciate constructive criticism but i'd like to see other peoples' thoughts here as well.
this card worked very well in Zendikar block, which was dominated by Boros and RUG (block versions of the same decks we're seeing in standard now). Though a swarm based strategy has some vulnerability to sweepers, it performs very well against defenses based on blockers and spot removal and Jace's bounce ability. Can this be made to work in standard? Block version was mono-green. Standard version could be mono-G, GW, GR, or Naya colors. I particularly like the power upgrade that Hero of Bladehold adds to this strategy.
I'll say that the biggest problem I see with this is beating Valakut. I'm quite positive I can build a GW Beastmaster deck that can beat Jace decks. How do we solve the Valakut weakness?
some old technology from before Scars block was released thats starting to look better by the day. This is a superb trump against Mindsculptor based decks. Is it possible to build a different kind of UW deck that beats CawBlade?
GWx Vengevine decks are very strong in principle. They have lots of synergy and card advantage and are very versatile. But they are too slow to beat Valakut, which just explodes in their face and invalidates the Vine plan. Is there a good way to fight Valakut with Vengevine decks? Typical Vine decks are in GW or GWr, but that seems to be failing. Could we try using black or blue cards in here to disrupt Valakut and buy enough time for the Vines to get there?
My friend is testing a U/R pyromancer ascension deck that runs trapmaker's snare and archive traps as teh wincon, since every single top deck runs many library search abilities.
Vengevine decks are suppose to beat caw-blade, not valakut according to the paper, rock, scissor diagram. control (caw-blade) is suppose to beat combo (valakut) which is suppose to beat aggro (vengevine) which is suppose to beat control. The problem is vengevine cant beat caw-blade, not valakut. And yes, valakut is a combo deck.
The format needs a consistant aggro stratagy. Kred is fast but so unconsistant. Vamps is about the most consistant aggro deck in the format right now and its win percentage isnt anywhere near what it needs to be to fill its roll.
That all being said, I have seen locally a bant-allies/beastmaster ascension deck play havoc with top players playing the top decks. Yeah its local meta, but thats where alot of inovation starts.
I'm working online on bant vengevine with spreading seas and frost titan to fight valakut. The initial testing against valakut is promising, where I am 7-6 in matches, but I'll need bigger numbers before labelling the match 'solved'.
One of the annoying things about the GWx vs. Valakut match is that because its a pure goldfish with a minimal number of difficult decisions on either side, the only way to work out if a particular idea works against it is to try it. And then try it again...and again...and again. It may work perfectly on matches 1 to 3 and then fail miserably on 4 to 6 with fairly small changes to the draws.
The match against Caw-Blade is pretty convincing though. Third-turn jaces are good.
I'm curious about your Bant Vine list. That sounds promising. Can you beat Valakut by getting some threats going by turn 3/4 and then just sitting on Mana Leak (and Flashfreeze post-board) to get there? Basically aggro-control them, which is what CawBlade does. Can you implement this strategy with Vines instead of Birds? I'd really like to see if it works.
@Metamorph: I'm pretty sure you can, and I'm pretty sure it would work. But I always feel that such an approach fills too many slots with cards that just aren't much good in other matches. Frost titan helps you fight titans in general, and spreading seas is actually amazing against vampires.
Im working on a Sun Titan + Jace B. deck. Its been testing well so far.
Vengevine decks are said to just be a little too slow to beat Valakut. I think pairing it with black for disruption could work though.
I played UW Venser with Sun Titan and Li'l Jace for a while. Should've played it today at Regionals . . .might have done better.
Anyway, the last Venser variant I played ran 3 little Jace, 4 big Jace (for budget players: you can run four Jace 1.0 and still be competitive), clasps, magnets and other pap. Jace plus Titan is really, really good. THese tyepsof decks can be weak against Valakut so metagame accordingly (or SB Seas, Leyline, etc. and pray for rain).
Good news is that, if tuned correctly, they beat the crap out of cawblade. Clasps and magnets are good in general against the blade.
I'm trying out a GRW deck on Cockatrice right now. I was playing GW Quest but kept getting killed by RUG so I thought I'd try something new. It's like the best of GW Quest without the Quest along with some bolts, inferno titans, and lotus cobras.
I haven't played a lot of Cawblade in my testing surprisingly, so I'll wait and see how more testing goes.
I'm all about some baby Jace Sun Titan action. How much Titan?
4 Preordain
4 Manaleak
4 Jace Beleren
3 Sun Titan
LoL.....should the deck be more aggroish? What about a 26 Land style like Boros? Drop Preordain for some one drops like Student of Warfare or steppe lynx......Kor doublestrike with equipment guy?
I played UW Venser with Sun Titan and Li'l Jace for a while. Should've played it today at Regionals . . .might have done better.
Anyway, the last Venser variant I played ran 3 little Jace, 4 big Jace (for budget players: you can run four Jace 1.0 and still be competitive), clasps, magnets and other pap. Jace plus Titan is really, really good. THese tyepsof decks can be weak against Valakut so metagame accordingly (or SB Seas, Leyline, etc. and pray for rain).
Good news is that, if tuned correctly, they beat the crap out of cawblade. Clasps and magnets are good in general against the blade.
Yea Im running the same stuff with Magnets and Clasps.
What else do you run in it? I find myself low on Titan targets, but its a very solid deck. I havent lost many games.
That was a list I proposed (read the last post of mine in the thread for the current itteration.)
It looks sweet on paper, but I have yet to build it (I don't have any of the cards, oddly.)
The SB is really bad, I don't know what I was thinking. I would probably do something involving copies of Baneslayer Angel, Luminarch Ascension, Leyline Of Sanctity, removal spells, additional counters (Flashfreeze or Negate) and maybe Divine Offering (lots of RUG feat. Precursor here.) I also really like Devout Lightcaster (Vamps also, locally) and he(she?) has some sweet interactions with Sun Titan, ofc.
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GWx Vengevine decks are very strong in principle. They have lots of synergy and card advantage and are very versatile. But they are too slow to beat Valakut, which just explodes in their face and invalidates the Vine plan. Is there a good way to fight Valakut with Vengevine decks? Typical Vine decks are in GW or GWr, but that seems to be failing. Could we try using black or blue cards in here to disrupt Valakut and buy enough time for the Vines to get there?
I was having the same thoughts earlier. I took the red cards out of my Nayavine deck and replaced them with counterspells and Jace. Although this is weaker against aggro decks, being able to play Jace will be very useful against Jace decks, and playing counterspells is all a deck needs to beat Valakut. I'll be testing it out for a bit.
There's no Sun Titan + Jace Beleren list that won't be stronger by adding 3+ Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
There are probably no GW Vengevine lists that wouldn't be stronger by adding Primeval Titan as a finisher for when the main plan has stalled out. The utility of being able to go get Tectonic Edge, Mystifying Maze or manlands will be too strong to resist in the end, not to mention he's a 6/6 trample and those lists tend to play Lotus Cobras anyway. Also having Green Sun's Zenith in them seems likely and PTitan is really good with GSZ, even as just a 1 or 2-of.
Really you can't build anti-meta lists in this meta without including the cards you're building against. That's why it's such a constrained meta with fewer cards actually seeing high level play than anything remotely recent.
My friend is testing a U/R pyromancer ascension deck that runs trapmaker's snare and archive traps as teh wincon, since every single top deck runs many library search abilities.
I thought about this for a second and that's actually a really cool idea.
With the ascension active all you need to do is play a Trapmaker's Snare after a library has been searched and it gets copied, you grab TWO archive traps, cast both for free and get FOUR mills of 13 cards for gg. With your wincon essentially costing two mana you can easily have counterspells held back to ensure your win. Of course you know this, I just thought I'd elucidate the plan a bit more in case people glossed over it initially.
It's a combo deck so of course most of the deck needs to be dedicated to landing that ascension and getting it active, and any games where no library searching occurs by your opponent is going to be rough, but it's an intriguing idea nonetheless.
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Standard: UR Guttersnipe & Talrand
Modern: U Merfolk (in progress)
Legacy: RBurn
Yea Im running the same stuff with Magnets and Clasps.
What else do you run in it? I find myself low on Titan targets, but its a very solid deck. I havent lost many games.
I mix it up but this is a baseline:
2-4 Titans
0-2 Gideons
2 Venser (always seems right)
4 WoOmens
3-4 DoJ
3-4 Magnet
2 Clasp
2-4 Oracle
Jaces: I like four baby Jace but sometimes I'll go 2 big, 3 little or something like that. I actually like little Jace better, especially if you run 3 or more TItans. I own four big Jace so I"m not being a grumpy budget player; the synnergy with Titan and the lower cmc makes him awesome in a deck like this. Big Jace is a win condition, however, something Venser decks tend to be light on.
26 lands
Not auto-includes but I have used:
-up to two Sunblast Angel
-up to two Skyfisher
-up to four (though usually only two) Ratchet Bomb
-Seas (I tend to go all-in or not at all)
Tend not to use:
-Leak (or coutnermagic in general). Freezes in the board seem decent but we're not favored vs. Valakut no matter what.
-Preordain. I just don't see the need for it in Venser decks. We can rifle through our decks anyway.
Im running Leonin Arbiter in my version to really help attack the meta. Its a decent Titan target.
Arbiter main is so good, I'm currently running it sb in my r/w deck but ive tested other decks with it main and it works. I just don't have room to run it main in the deck.
I thought about this for a second and that's actually a really cool idea.
With the ascension active all you need to do is play a Trapmaker's Snare after a library has been searched and it gets copied, you grab TWO archive traps, cast both for free and get FOUR mills of 13 cards for gg. With your wincon essentially costing two mana you can easily have counterspells held back to ensure your win. Of course you know this, I just thought I'd elucidate the plan a bit more in case people glossed over it initially.
It's a combo deck so of course most of the deck needs to be dedicated to landing that ascension and getting it active, and any games where no library searching occurs by your opponent is going to be rough, but it's an intriguing idea nonetheless.
Or you could throw a playset of Neurok Commando in Pyromancer Ascension and play a combo-aggro-control-counterburn hybrid bastard child that spanks caw-blade all day long. After testing today, I'm certain thats what I'm gonna be playing. I'll punish standard players for running lowly x/1's and x/2's that don't have shroud and draw you cards.
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The day you realize you too, can triforce!
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UWx CawBlade (Stoneforge Mystic, Sword of Feast and Famine, Squadron Hawk, Jace, the Mindsculptor, Gideon Jura, countermagic)
RUG (Lotus Cobra, Jace, the Mindsculptor, Frost Titan, Inferno Titan, Precursor Golem, cantrips)
Valakut Titan (Primeval Titan, Inferno Titan, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, land ramp)
thats the undisputed tier 1. there are some playable aggro decks as well. Boros, Vampires, and mono-red all work and occasionally place, but they seem more tier 2 in this metagame based purely on top 8 finishes. Vengevine decks haven't been seen much in top 8 for a long time either. definitely tier 2. UB is around, but pretty rogue, also tier 2. thats where we stand. how do we attack this metagame? I'll provide a couple of ideas but i'm hoping this thread won't just be criticism of my early brainstorming. i do appreciate constructive criticism but i'd like to see other peoples' thoughts here as well.
my thoughts:
1. Beastmaster Ascension
this card worked very well in Zendikar block, which was dominated by Boros and RUG (block versions of the same decks we're seeing in standard now). Though a swarm based strategy has some vulnerability to sweepers, it performs very well against defenses based on blockers and spot removal and Jace's bounce ability. Can this be made to work in standard? Block version was mono-green. Standard version could be mono-G, GW, GR, or Naya colors. I particularly like the power upgrade that Hero of Bladehold adds to this strategy.
I'll say that the biggest problem I see with this is beating Valakut. I'm quite positive I can build a GW Beastmaster deck that can beat Jace decks. How do we solve the Valakut weakness?
2. Jace Beleren + Sun Titan
some old technology from before Scars block was released thats starting to look better by the day. This is a superb trump against Mindsculptor based decks. Is it possible to build a different kind of UW deck that beats CawBlade?
3. How can a Vengevine deck beat a Valakut deck?
GWx Vengevine decks are very strong in principle. They have lots of synergy and card advantage and are very versatile. But they are too slow to beat Valakut, which just explodes in their face and invalidates the Vine plan. Is there a good way to fight Valakut with Vengevine decks? Typical Vine decks are in GW or GWr, but that seems to be failing. Could we try using black or blue cards in here to disrupt Valakut and buy enough time for the Vines to get there?
Vengevine decks are said to just be a little too slow to beat Valakut. I think pairing it with black for disruption could work though.
The format needs a consistant aggro stratagy. Kred is fast but so unconsistant. Vamps is about the most consistant aggro deck in the format right now and its win percentage isnt anywhere near what it needs to be to fill its roll.
That all being said, I have seen locally a bant-allies/beastmaster ascension deck play havoc with top players playing the top decks. Yeah its local meta, but thats where alot of inovation starts.
One of the annoying things about the GWx vs. Valakut match is that because its a pure goldfish with a minimal number of difficult decisions on either side, the only way to work out if a particular idea works against it is to try it. And then try it again...and again...and again. It may work perfectly on matches 1 to 3 and then fail miserably on 4 to 6 with fairly small changes to the draws.
The match against Caw-Blade is pretty convincing though. Third-turn jaces are good.
2011-2012:Bantblade, BantPod
2010-2011:Bant Shaman, Naya Shaman, Naya allies + Scars, URG Turboforce
2009-2010:Naya allies, Mono-White Titan Control
:symw::symb:Steel Wb Weenie
Edit: List is in my sig.
2011-2012:Bantblade, BantPod
2010-2011:Bant Shaman, Naya Shaman, Naya allies + Scars, URG Turboforce
2009-2010:Naya allies, Mono-White Titan Control
The bant list in the SCD-BoP thread that I linked to is freaking amazing as well.
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I played UW Venser with Sun Titan and Li'l Jace for a while. Should've played it today at Regionals . . .might have done better.
Anyway, the last Venser variant I played ran 3 little Jace, 4 big Jace (for budget players: you can run four Jace 1.0 and still be competitive), clasps, magnets and other pap. Jace plus Titan is really, really good. THese tyepsof decks can be weak against Valakut so metagame accordingly (or SB Seas, Leyline, etc. and pray for rain).
Good news is that, if tuned correctly, they beat the crap out of cawblade. Clasps and magnets are good in general against the blade.
I haven't played a lot of Cawblade in my testing surprisingly, so I'll wait and see how more testing goes.
4 Preordain
4 Manaleak
4 Jace Beleren
3 Sun Titan
LoL.....should the deck be more aggroish? What about a 26 Land style like Boros? Drop Preordain for some one drops like Student of Warfare or steppe lynx......Kor doublestrike with equipment guy?
I do know one thing.....
4 Stoneforge....yeah. That's about right.
:symw::symb:Steel Wb Weenie
Yea Im running the same stuff with Magnets and Clasps.
What else do you run in it? I find myself low on Titan targets, but its a very solid deck. I havent lost many games.
2x Sun Titan
3x Sea Gate Oracle
4x Wall of Omens
This is the creature package I run. I like it.
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That was a list I proposed (read the last post of mine in the thread for the current itteration.)
It looks sweet on paper, but I have yet to build it (I don't have any of the cards, oddly.)
The SB is really bad, I don't know what I was thinking. I would probably do something involving copies of Baneslayer Angel, Luminarch Ascension, Leyline Of Sanctity, removal spells, additional counters (Flashfreeze or Negate) and maybe Divine Offering (lots of RUG feat. Precursor here.) I also really like Devout Lightcaster (Vamps also, locally) and he(she?) has some sweet interactions with Sun Titan, ofc.
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I was having the same thoughts earlier. I took the red cards out of my Nayavine deck and replaced them with counterspells and Jace. Although this is weaker against aggro decks, being able to play Jace will be very useful against Jace decks, and playing counterspells is all a deck needs to beat Valakut. I'll be testing it out for a bit.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
There are probably no GW Vengevine lists that wouldn't be stronger by adding Primeval Titan as a finisher for when the main plan has stalled out. The utility of being able to go get Tectonic Edge, Mystifying Maze or manlands will be too strong to resist in the end, not to mention he's a 6/6 trample and those lists tend to play Lotus Cobras anyway. Also having Green Sun's Zenith in them seems likely and PTitan is really good with GSZ, even as just a 1 or 2-of.
Really you can't build anti-meta lists in this meta without including the cards you're building against. That's why it's such a constrained meta with fewer cards actually seeing high level play than anything remotely recent.
I thought about this for a second and that's actually a really cool idea.
With the ascension active all you need to do is play a Trapmaker's Snare after a library has been searched and it gets copied, you grab TWO archive traps, cast both for free and get FOUR mills of 13 cards for gg. With your wincon essentially costing two mana you can easily have counterspells held back to ensure your win. Of course you know this, I just thought I'd elucidate the plan a bit more in case people glossed over it initially.
It's a combo deck so of course most of the deck needs to be dedicated to landing that ascension and getting it active, and any games where no library searching occurs by your opponent is going to be rough, but it's an intriguing idea nonetheless.
Modern: U Merfolk (in progress)
Legacy: RBurn
I mix it up but this is a baseline:
2-4 Titans
0-2 Gideons
2 Venser (always seems right)
4 WoOmens
3-4 DoJ
3-4 Magnet
2 Clasp
2-4 Oracle
Jaces: I like four baby Jace but sometimes I'll go 2 big, 3 little or something like that. I actually like little Jace better, especially if you run 3 or more TItans. I own four big Jace so I"m not being a grumpy budget player; the synnergy with Titan and the lower cmc makes him awesome in a deck like this. Big Jace is a win condition, however, something Venser decks tend to be light on.
26 lands
Not auto-includes but I have used:
-up to two Sunblast Angel
-up to two Skyfisher
-up to four (though usually only two) Ratchet Bomb
-Seas (I tend to go all-in or not at all)
Tend not to use:
-Leak (or coutnermagic in general). Freezes in the board seem decent but we're not favored vs. Valakut no matter what.
-Preordain. I just don't see the need for it in Venser decks. We can rifle through our decks anyway.
Arbiter main is so good, I'm currently running it sb in my r/w deck but ive tested other decks with it main and it works. I just don't have room to run it main in the deck.
(246-174-26)
I have a thread up, but it doesnt seem to be getting much attention.
Or you could throw a playset of Neurok Commando in Pyromancer Ascension and play a combo-aggro-control-counterburn hybrid bastard child that spanks caw-blade all day long. After testing today, I'm certain thats what I'm gonna be playing. I'll punish standard players for running lowly x/1's and x/2's that don't have shroud and draw you cards.
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