I would like to generate some considered discourse on this card choice, mainly because it bothers me that so many people seem to be mindlessly slotting it into their 75 without just cause. Let me start with a direct value comparison to Sword of Body and Mind. I'll exclude the value of pro-green since it's a mutually shared ability.
SoBaM:
- Pro-Blue: Jace protection. Extremely relevant at all stages of the game against blue control decks, since they've become quite adept at keeping no more than one creature on the board, making Jace a timewalk in many situations.
- "Build-a-Bear": Also extremely relevant at all stages of the game. Allows the increase of threat density without investment of cards, provides another body to equip to keep the CA and beats coming against heavy removal decks. Dies to the same sweepers as every other creature, but also helps rebuild your army post-sweep if you manage to stick even one unanswered followup creature.
- Milling: Marginally relevant. Highly synergistic with Bonehoard, fantastic against decks banking on resolving one threat to win the game, potential win condition in fringe situations
SoFaF:
- Pro-Black: Removal protection. Safeguards your dudes from cards like Go for the Throat, etc, provides huge advantage against black creature decks, forces damage through a Grave Titan
- Discard: Relevant in the early game, diminishing returns as the game progresses. Potent against Valakut since they have no way of actually generating card quantity advantage.
Untapping: High risk, high reward. There is value to be gained, but it comes with the risk of baiting yourself into overextension into a sweeper. Also comes with diminishing returns, as untapping lands has no value if you have nothing to do with them.
I originally typed this up with the intention of convincing the masses that Sword of Feast and Famine is not worth the slot. Perhaps I was tilting a bit because in my last test game against Caw-Go, if SoFaF had been BaM, I would've won the game three turns earlier (still won; Hawks + Bonehoard > Jace + Colonnade). However, seeing it all laid out has actually convinced me that the card does possess some context-specific advantage over BaM, and is perhaps worthwhile. However, I still strongly believe its ideal slot in in the SB. I still generally prefer SoBaM as my go-to equipment in G1 situations. I hope this helped someone other than me, and I look forward to reading your thoughts.
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We are the middle children of history. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War is a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.
SoFaF is a VERY good card, and should be included MD (at the very least SB) in all boros decks with the stoneforge package, which is all of them currently.
Play with it and you will see house-esque it really is. I hated it until I tried it.
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Standard:
Retired.
Modern:
Blitzhelix! RW
EDH (1v1): I am a jerk! RG Tiny Leaders (1v1): BURN! R
There's plenty of ways to use the extra mana from SoFaF without over-extending. Play Koth, play Gideon, play more equipment, play smaller threats around Mana Leak, or move equipment to an untapped creature. It's especially good if you run Spikeshot Elder (which I don't, but many still do).
SoFaF absolutely deserves a spot in the 75. Personally, I like it main too so game 1 I can deal with black decks more efficiently. BU control and Vamps may not have Top 8'ed Paris, but they're still both popular and strong decks.
I hope my writing didn't give people the impression I haven't played with the card. What sparked this is the fact that I've played with it quite extensively and I wasn't impressed. The net mana gained through the sword trigger would most likely be used to cast a relatively small creature, and SoBaM does that without investing a card. Like I said, I can see its applications, but their advantages don't outweigh those of SoBaM or Bonehoard in my eyes. And yes, in hindsight I do feel like Bonehoard should be part of the discussion. No one is arguing in favor of replacing SoBaM with SoFaF, which leaves the second sword in direct competition with Bonehoard as opposed to Bambam.
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We are the middle children of history. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War is a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.
I think it's more cute than effective in a Lemoine(ish) build. I run 2x Sword of Body and Mind instead because 9/10x i win on the back of Mirran Crusader who when gaining protection from a 3rd color, milling for 20 and sprouting 2 Wolves is just more of what i want. Don't get me wrong a pseudo Hymn to Torach ain't bad but i VERY rarely have much to do with the open mana and it comes down to which would i rather. Plus the protection is redundant on a Crusader weilding a SoFaF.
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Kor Firewalker + Sword = GG against Vamps and Valakut.
That's pretty much the sole reason i'm running the sword at all.
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We are the middle children of history. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War is a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.
I've personally been moving away from landfall in boros in favor of Battle Cry. I've been experimenting with Student of Warfare as a 1-drop next to Goblin Guide and have found she is AMAZING with the newer sword. I run Body n Mind SB to bring in vs control, but pro black, pro green has been very kind to me.
BTW, Kor Firewalker + Sword = GG against Vamps and Valakut.
Except that Valakut is a colorless source, and Kor Firewalker isn't particularly good in ANY matchup right now. It may give Boros/Vamps trouble, but eventually, that white beater/removal or black beater/removal will take care of it. And Valakut DOES have card advantage - they run 4 copies of Explore and now have the Zenith to get a creature into play that isn't even in their hand. I'd also count dumping 2 lands out of your deck every single turn counts so that you draw what you need instead of lands.
I still don't like it. It seems to do almost nothing, and it doesn't even have the most relevant protection. When black is paired with blue, the decks will a) have full hands so the discard isn't that good and b) have Jace to bounce your dude. So BUG and UB take care of it fine. It's good against Vamps, I guess. But the fact that sometimes its abilities will 100% miss makes it bad in my eyes: all the other swords give you something no matter what (draw, damage, lifegain, mill, token), but I can think of plenty of scenarios where you have nothing to spend that mana on and their hand is full of expendable cards. I want profit from a sword. I don't want to be able to play a Journey when they have no board presence or for them to just dump more lands into their graveyard.
And as I mentioned before, the most damaging Doom Blade/Disfigure is the one they hit your T1 Lynx or T2 Pede with, not the one they hit your Stoneforge with on T4.
If you want something good against black and green, play Mirran Crusader. He has built-in protection, double strike, doesn't take a ton of mana, dies just as much to burn as any of our other dudes, and doesn't make you sad when he connects for nothing more than 4 damage.
That's true, but I'd think that a 4/4 with protection from 3 colors, lifegain, and two combat damage effects would be pretty good against almost any deck except White Weenie or something
I used to think that firewalker is bad against valakut. But the reason why people run it against the deck to have a guy that survives pyroclasms and slagstorm. We want to be able to equip firewalker with a sword then play the role of beatdown. That's why I've been trying to squeeze in 3 copies.
Raggedjoe, your post reminded me of how much this deck could use another 1 drop at times. I used to favor Student of Warfare since it was easy to commit the extra mana rather than extra cards to the board, alloweding for a strong board presence without the issues that normally come with it (such as basically just losing to a board wipe).
So undecided what I would like to test next with Boros. But I doubt I will test Student of Warfare again, my initial dislike hasn't really been resolved.
Raggedjoe, your post reminded me of how much this deck could use another 1 drop at times. I used to favor Student of Warfare since it was easy to commit the extra mana rather than extra cards to the board, alloweding for a strong board presence without the issues that normally come with it (such as basically just losing to a board wipe).
So undecided what I would like to test next with Boros. But I doubt I will test Student of Warfare again, my initial dislike hasn't really been resolved.
That is the basic core of what I was trying. White has gotten some nice aggro cards recently, and my build was more white with red splash than real Boros. I'll make a thread about it. Although it needs more testing, so far I have been very happy with it.
Sword Of Body And Mind is amazing against Valakut. Milling away Mountains is incredibly relevant at all stages of the game except when you're at 0 life.
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Against Valakut, SoBaM is much better. But against U/B, Vamp's and U/W, Sword of FaF is much better because it dodges removal and allows for more pro-black for vamps along with crusader.
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I just read an article by MIKE and he said, comparing SoFaF to SoBaM is like comparing Adventuring Gear to Jace, the Mind Sculptor, SoFaF being the Jace in this situation.
Who is this "MIKE" character, and was it an article for Boros? SoFaF is obviously superior in any deck running counterspells, but I'd argue otherwise in this archetype.
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We are the middle children of history. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War is a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.
I keep SoFaF in the side with 2x SoBaM MD. SoBaM is so much more potent with 4x Mirran Crusaders. I'm really up in the air with what my list will look like once it's settled but a higher curve accommodating Gideon, Hero of Oxid Ridge, or BSA could make the untap from SoFaF more appealing.
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Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
That might be the best definition ever of "win-more." I don't think I've ever lost a game where Koth ultimated.
Actually, I ultimated Koth and Pinged with my mountains 6 times to win, where I would have lost the next turn if I didnt have the sword.
Extreme case, yes... but I agree with the Win-more statement.
Edit: the greatest win-more definition would have to be Ultimating Koth, only to drop another.
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Mishra, Artificer Prodigy 1UBR
I did that^. Used the first's emblem to ping away dudes and used the second to pump my tapped mountains into beaters.
I lost once with an ultimate out to Valakut. He attacked with Primeval to hit me for 18, and I had only 3 mountains out. I don't know if that counts though
I did that^. Used the first's emblem to ping away dudes and used the second to pump my tapped mountains into beaters.
I lost once with an ultimate out to Valakut. He attacked with Primeval to hit me for 18, and I had only 3 mountains out. I don't know if that counts though
Ahh well, not much you can do there. Koth ultimate in Boros isnt insane as it is in RDW or a U/R control with him as a finisher.
My only loss after ultimate was the 1st time i had done it, and I kept on forgetting to ping at the end of turn.
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Standard: RWB Dega Burn RWB
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Mishra, Artificer Prodigy 1UBR
I run Body and Mind plus Bonehoard maindeck with Feast and Famine in the sideboard. This is a metagame call as UW is pretty popular while Vampires and UB are losing their popularity in my store. At the end of the day, it is a judgment call, but I don't really think the discard portion of Feast and Famine is all that relevant in your tough match-ups.
Against Caw-blade, they just pitch extra Hawks if they have them, they've been sculpting their hand with cantrips and the like so they can plan for it. Untapping can be relevant against them if you have bolt in hand to respond to an equip, but leaving up 1 isn't that difficult either. You could say that Feast and Famine will help game 1 when they still have Spell Piece and other counters, which I would agree with. In that case, board out Feast and Famine for game 2 against Caw-blade since you won't need extra mana to get your removal through. Your lightning bolts are still golden.
Against Valakut, Body and Mind wins hands down. It's not even close and having to argue for it should be considered a waste of time. The mill plan is actually just the stone nuts against them and they can't do much to stop it.
In the mirror, it's kind of a tough call. I haven't had a ton of experience with the mirror, but I think Feast and Famine might win here. The discard plus being able to empty your hand is really what the mirror is about. The 2/2 from Body and Mind could be really good though. I don't know.
Assorted other aggro decks that aren't black you should go for Body and Mind as a 2/2 is better than the worst card in their hand usually, imo.
Don't forget to take into account Vengevine in your local metagame when choosing to sideboard or cut Feast and Famine. :-P
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SoBaM:
- Pro-Blue: Jace protection. Extremely relevant at all stages of the game against blue control decks, since they've become quite adept at keeping no more than one creature on the board, making Jace a timewalk in many situations.
- "Build-a-Bear": Also extremely relevant at all stages of the game. Allows the increase of threat density without investment of cards, provides another body to equip to keep the CA and beats coming against heavy removal decks. Dies to the same sweepers as every other creature, but also helps rebuild your army post-sweep if you manage to stick even one unanswered followup creature.
- Milling: Marginally relevant. Highly synergistic with Bonehoard, fantastic against decks banking on resolving one threat to win the game, potential win condition in fringe situations
SoFaF:
- Pro-Black: Removal protection. Safeguards your dudes from cards like Go for the Throat, etc, provides huge advantage against black creature decks, forces damage through a Grave Titan
- Discard: Relevant in the early game, diminishing returns as the game progresses. Potent against Valakut since they have no way of actually generating card quantity advantage.
Untapping: High risk, high reward. There is value to be gained, but it comes with the risk of baiting yourself into overextension into a sweeper. Also comes with diminishing returns, as untapping lands has no value if you have nothing to do with them.
I originally typed this up with the intention of convincing the masses that Sword of Feast and Famine is not worth the slot. Perhaps I was tilting a bit because in my last test game against Caw-Go, if SoFaF had been BaM, I would've won the game three turns earlier (still won; Hawks + Bonehoard > Jace + Colonnade). However, seeing it all laid out has actually convinced me that the card does possess some context-specific advantage over BaM, and is perhaps worthwhile. However, I still strongly believe its ideal slot in in the SB. I still generally prefer SoBaM as my go-to equipment in G1 situations. I hope this helped someone other than me, and I look forward to reading your thoughts.
Play with it and you will see house-esque it really is. I hated it until I tried it.
Standard:
Retired.
Modern:
Blitzhelix! RW
EDH (1v1): I am a jerk! RG
Tiny Leaders (1v1): BURN! R
SoFaF absolutely deserves a spot in the 75. Personally, I like it main too so game 1 I can deal with black decks more efficiently. BU control and Vamps may not have Top 8'ed Paris, but they're still both popular and strong decks.
RMythic RedR
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EDH
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That's pretty much the sole reason i'm running the sword at all.
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Except that Valakut is a colorless source, and Kor Firewalker isn't particularly good in ANY matchup right now. It may give Boros/Vamps trouble, but eventually, that white beater/removal or black beater/removal will take care of it. And Valakut DOES have card advantage - they run 4 copies of Explore and now have the Zenith to get a creature into play that isn't even in their hand. I'd also count dumping 2 lands out of your deck every single turn counts so that you draw what you need instead of lands.
I still don't like it. It seems to do almost nothing, and it doesn't even have the most relevant protection. When black is paired with blue, the decks will a) have full hands so the discard isn't that good and b) have Jace to bounce your dude. So BUG and UB take care of it fine. It's good against Vamps, I guess. But the fact that sometimes its abilities will 100% miss makes it bad in my eyes: all the other swords give you something no matter what (draw, damage, lifegain, mill, token), but I can think of plenty of scenarios where you have nothing to spend that mana on and their hand is full of expendable cards. I want profit from a sword. I don't want to be able to play a Journey when they have no board presence or for them to just dump more lands into their graveyard.
And as I mentioned before, the most damaging Doom Blade/Disfigure is the one they hit your T1 Lynx or T2 Pede with, not the one they hit your Stoneforge with on T4.
If you want something good against black and green, play Mirran Crusader. He has built-in protection, double strike, doesn't take a ton of mana, dies just as much to burn as any of our other dudes, and doesn't make you sad when he connects for nothing more than 4 damage.
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
I could see Student of Warefare as a fairly strong card in the deck, if positioned well with Spikeshot Elder (another source to dump mana, and added removal), Squadran Hawk (card advantage), and through Stoneforge Mystic a Sword of Feast and Famine.
So undecided what I would like to test next with Boros. But I doubt I will test Student of Warfare again, my initial dislike hasn't really been resolved.
That is the basic core of what I was trying. White has gotten some nice aggro cards recently, and my build was more white with red splash than real Boros. I'll make a thread about it. Although it needs more testing, so far I have been very happy with it.
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Modern
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Top'16:
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PTQ Paris
Extended:
RIP
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Props to Hakai Studios for the banner
Modern
R/ Boros W/
U/ Eldrazi-Post G/
Top 8'd:
2x Tcg Player Qualifiers
1x MWS Series Trial
Top'16:
PTQ Austin
PTQ Paris
Extended:
RIP
Legacy: Zoo
"I am the beast of America"
Props to Hakai Studios for the banner
Who is this "MIKE" character, and was it an article for Boros? SoFaF is obviously superior in any deck running counterspells, but I'd argue otherwise in this archetype.
RMythic RedR
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EXTENDED
Jund's second rampage! :symb::symr::symg:
LEGACY
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Just went through all of the wizards' flores articles. Didn't find a quote like that. SCG on the other hand might be invisible to me.
That might be the best definition ever of "win-more." I don't think I've ever lost a game where Koth ultimated.
Actually, I ultimated Koth and Pinged with my mountains 6 times to win, where I would have lost the next turn if I didnt have the sword.
Extreme case, yes... but I agree with the Win-more statement.
Edit: the greatest win-more definition would have to be Ultimating Koth, only to drop another.
Standard: RWB Dega Burn RWB
Modern: 1 Top Control 1
Legacy: XU Manaless Blue Dredge XU
EDH: Edric, Spymaster of Tres 1UG
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy 1UBR
I miss casting Snapcaster Mage + Rampant Growth
I lost once with an ultimate out to Valakut. He attacked with Primeval to hit me for 18, and I had only 3 mountains out. I don't know if that counts though
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
Ahh well, not much you can do there. Koth ultimate in Boros isnt insane as it is in RDW or a U/R control with him as a finisher.
My only loss after ultimate was the 1st time i had done it, and I kept on forgetting to ping at the end of turn.
Standard: RWB Dega Burn RWB
Modern: 1 Top Control 1
Legacy: XU Manaless Blue Dredge XU
EDH: Edric, Spymaster of Tres 1UG
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy 1UBR
I miss casting Snapcaster Mage + Rampant Growth
Against Caw-blade, they just pitch extra Hawks if they have them, they've been sculpting their hand with cantrips and the like so they can plan for it. Untapping can be relevant against them if you have bolt in hand to respond to an equip, but leaving up 1 isn't that difficult either. You could say that Feast and Famine will help game 1 when they still have Spell Piece and other counters, which I would agree with. In that case, board out Feast and Famine for game 2 against Caw-blade since you won't need extra mana to get your removal through. Your lightning bolts are still golden.
Against Valakut, Body and Mind wins hands down. It's not even close and having to argue for it should be considered a waste of time. The mill plan is actually just the stone nuts against them and they can't do much to stop it.
In the mirror, it's kind of a tough call. I haven't had a ton of experience with the mirror, but I think Feast and Famine might win here. The discard plus being able to empty your hand is really what the mirror is about. The 2/2 from Body and Mind could be really good though. I don't know.
Assorted other aggro decks that aren't black you should go for Body and Mind as a 2/2 is better than the worst card in their hand usually, imo.
Don't forget to take into account Vengevine in your local metagame when choosing to sideboard or cut Feast and Famine. :-P