NOTICE: Be aware that this post was written when I conceived of Neo Wildfire as a U/R(x) archetype. The archetype has since shifted in multiple directions including G/R, Naya, R/W, and others. This original post will be updated to reflect the ongoing evolution of the archetype as time allows. Until such a time, feel free to think of this original post as a reference point for the Neo Wildfire archetype as a whole and a more specific examination of the original U/R build.
Also, please note that the Roiling Terrain package has since been removed from the U/R build. This original post will reflect the changes to the deck list in the near future.
What is Wildfire?
Wildfire is an archaic competitive archetype that first came to prominence over a decade ago at the hands of the legendary Kai Budde. The deck made use of its namesake Wildfire and an extensive toolbox of mana-generating artifacts in order devastate the opponent's play ability while leaving that of the wielder intact. Wildfire was an artifact-driven control powerhouse that left those unfortunate enough to face it reeling in the face of its undiscriminating scorched-earth tactic.
What is Neo Wildfire?
Neo Wildfire is the rebirth of the original Wildfire archetype. Unlike its predecessor, Neo Wildfire is a combo deck that makes use of the two cards Destructive Force and Roiling Terrain in a concentrated effort to utterly annihilate the opponent by destroying his lands and burning his life total simultaneously. The archetype also incorporates the control and permission elements of Blue in order to prolong the game and protect the combo. The archetype also makes use of planeswalkers and burn spells to hasten the opponent's demise.
Spreading Seas- One of the best Blue cards in Standard. Disrupts your opponent's mana and provides you with card advantage.
Staggershock- Efficient removal or burn that Rebounds.
Tezzeret the Seeker- Probably the best planeswalker you could play in this deck. He's incredibly powerful and will essentially win the game single handed after you play Destructive Force
The goal of this thread is to make Neo Wildfire the best archetype it can be. The hope is that it can prove itself as a truly competitive archetype with the release of M11 and the rotation of Alara block. What can you contribute to the archetype? What sort of cards would you play in it? What does your side board look like? Where would you go from here?
Khalni Gem Could be good in here. Being able to bounce two lands is a good thing the turn before a destructive force.
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You could practically make this deck mono-red. Check the Mythic Red thread: we recommend 4 Roiling terrains, 4 Goblin Ruinblasters, some Lodestone Golems... I'd put Chandra Ablaze for card draw and all that makes for one powerful land denial deck.
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Bringing Turbo-Hydra back to Standard...
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
Cool to see you got it up. Mine got locked for not being titled right I think but I'm working on getting it back up.
I'm not feeling the blue splash that much. It feels like its just throwing Jace in because he's Jace and Mana Leak because the deck has blue in it. I mean I'm sure it'll work fine but it just seems like a Devestating Force deck with Jace as opposed to any color synergy being used. Test it and post some results though. I'd be more than happy to eat crow.
Cool to see you got it up. Mine got locked for not being titled right I think but I'm working on getting it back up.
I'm not feeling the blue splash that much. It feels like its just throwing Jace in because he's Jace and Mana Leak because the deck has blue in it. I mean I'm sure it'll work fine but it just seems like a Devestating Force deck with Jace as opposed to any color synergy being used. Test it and post some results though. I'd be more than happy to eat crow.
Jace has great synergy with Destructive Force though. He fateseals them out of the game.
You could practically make this deck mono-red. Check the Mythic Red thread: we recommend 4 Roiling terrains, 4 Goblin Ruinblasters, some Lodestone Golems... I'd put Chandra Ablaze for card draw and all that makes for one powerful land denial deck.
Chandra Ablaze could be seriously effective though, I agree. You could essentially play a Destructive Force for free. The problem is the same as it's always been with it though -- card advantage. Chandra Ablaze has always worked actively against card advantage, and I'm not sure there's enough burn in the deck right now to justify it.
Goblin Ruinblaster seems like a fine addition. I'd definitely consider testing it.
Lodestone Golem works against this deck's strategy. It makes Destructive Force more expensive and dies to it. I'm not seeing the synergy.
I also like the idea of Mnemonic Wall in the deck, but there isn't really room at the moment.
EDIT: I also really like the idea of Reverberate as a one or two-of in the deck if possible. The only thing more devastating than one Destructive Force is two.
How about go superfriends with destructive force and into the roil? You have ajani vengant and gideon along with the others to control the board after you "wildfire."
I think a better strategy is to get a creature or planeswalker on the field that survives the 5 damage and then procede to win with them.
RG ramp LD with the new Green Titan. Hes perfect with the new 'Wildfire'. And you can still play Roiling Terrain.
The problem is getting the creature onto the field that survives the 5 damage. The original Wildfire decks did that, but it's not so easy in this Standard, and is going to become even more challenging until October.
As for the planeswalkers; I agree entirely. That's why Chandra Nalaar and Jace, the Mind Sculptor are in the deck at the moment. They're immune to Destructive Force and make it incredibly difficult for the opponent to recover from it.
Lavaball trap? With it's trap cost, supposing your opponent fetches, which is often, it may as well wipe their board and kill two creatures. And to hard cast is only one more than the new wildfire.
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Lavaball trap? With it's trap cost, supposing your opponent fetches, which is often, it may as well wipe their board and kill two creatures. And to hard cast is only one more than the new wildfire.
It would be killer tech against Turbo Land. At least sideboard material.
This deck, as I'm sure it does for many others, brings back memories of a great time in magic. Kai Budde's deck was a standard powerhouse and I believe that we have some of the tools to recreate a Magic Masterpiece, but I believe that we should start by analyzing the original decklist and use it as a model for tweaking its modern day contemporary. Below is kay Budde's winning list.
As I see it, there are 3 parts to the deck: Win conditions, Mana, and mana sinks. Eight win conditions (7 of which survive wildfire without any assistance from interaction with an opponent) are aggressively cost creatures that impose a quick clock, with half of them providing a defensive mechanism. Masticore was tip-top for creatures that kill creatures and came down as early as turn 3. Covetous Dragon was a fast clock that lived through Wildfire, and Karn was one of the best available finishers back in Urza's block besides Stroke of Genius.
Modern day counterparts for these historic creatures will be difficult to come by. Inferno Titan, or any of it's four counterparts, is the most likely creature to be able to live through a Destructive Force. My preference is either this one or Sun Titan, as these two provide the best counter-aggro plan (repeated arc lightnings, recurring wall of omens/lone missionary/pilgrim's eye/ember hauler). Finding a compliment to Inferno Titan has proven difficult. Although the with the degree of artifact acceleration, I believe Lord of Shatterskull Pass is an option worth some amount of playtesting. After a two mana investment he survives Wildfire 2.0, and with time will lock the opponent out of creatures, including most titans (aside from pro-red shenanigans). Another creature that may deserve some amount of testing is Magma Pheonix. Although I wouldn't ever want more than one of these guys, it's recursive nature is a powerful effect.
The second part of the Pro player's deck is 14 ways to use the large quatity of mana he establishes in the the first few turns. These mana sinks include:
The obvious replacement is Destructive Force for Wildfire, but the rest remain shoes which will be difficult to fill. Seeing as we won't have a plethora of artifacts available to use for another three months, the only one I've seen that will be of any use to us is:
In a monored version, I believe this will fill a major void in the deck. Card selection in a deck that will most likely run upwards of 35 mana sources is a necessity. Getting through the accelerants and finding a spell or creature that will effect the board is vital and this is in my opinion the best available resource for this deck to get to it's business spells. The only other alternative is Seer's Sundial, but I see many flaws with that card. First is the greater casting cost, (although idealing any 3 or 4 cmc spell will be landing on turn 3 in this deck). Secondly, Crystal Ball's effect is much easier to access at instant speed, and doesn't necessitate an arguable amount of fetchlands in order to keep mana up for the opponents turn. Also, I find that Crystal Ball will be much better in multiples as opposed to multiple Seer's Sundials. And finally, Crystal Ball is another reason to utilize Voltaic Key, where Seer's Sundial in unaffected by it.
As for other ways to utilize the mana available to us, the standard we live in now is much or creature based than the days of Urza's block, so the remaining 6-8 slots might include some amount of removal such as Lightning Bolt, Chandra Nalaar, Chandra Ablaze, Flame Slash, Comet Storm, Earthquake (for the time being), Staggershock, Brittle Effigy etc. Although this is an easy way to fill spots, streamlining the deck to get to a Destructive Force as fast as possible is another option via Pyrectic Ritual, and Eldrazi Spawn cards. Including either of these can result in plays such as a turn 3 double kicked Chalice or Khalni Gem into a Voltaic Key into Crystal Ball (seems ahead of the curve to me). Although inclusion of cards like these would absolutely necessitate some debateable amount of Chandra Ablaze in order to utilize them after the first 4+ turns.
The remainder of Kai's build is lands and artifact mana. A quick annotation:
20 lands (7 of which produce multiple mana), 8 two-cmc artifact acceleration, 2 three-cmc artifact acceleration, 4 four-cmc artifact acceleration, and 4 one-cmc ultility artifact. Yes Voltaic Key has profitable interactions with other artifacts, but seeing as anything profitable won't happen until you have at least 7 available mana, I'm considering it a mana artifact for this deck's purposes. Today's most valid counterparts are as follows:
If there is any hurdle in keeping this contemporary of an oldschool powerhouse from being a tiered deck it is exactly for this reason. The artifact acceleration from Urza's block costed 1, 2, 3, and 4 mana, where the best available today costs 1, 2, 4, and 6. This brings up a couple issues. First, the deck won't be as explosive, giving control decks and creature decks more time to establish a board position that will survive a DF. So either the deck has to focus on ramping up as quick as possible or it has to spread out its resources and use some card slots to handle the threats that do hit the board. This I believe is based on playstyle preference, and a grey area for the deck. Some will choose to take the deck in a more linear route, while others prefer versatility. Personally, I uncertain as to which route will prove more consitent/powerful. I believe both options must be looked into.
Finally I believe we must look into all the color spashes. Altough I will undoubtedly miss viable card options in each color, these are just off the top of my head:
As I said I'm sure there are numerous other cards left out, but seeing as it's late and this is simply off the cuff, I apologize. If I were to put all this together into a deck list, it would probably resemble something like the following.
There are a few issues. The first is it's 61 cards and there's nothing I can see that I want to cut. Second, it's easily disrupted. Third, I wish there was some permanent acceleration rather than Spawning Breath and/or Pyrectic Ritual available to us, but at the moment, I believe that these will prove to make the deck more consistent and at least a turn faster.
All in all I believe there is potential here. Although there is no guarentee that SoM will grant us any goodies to bolster this decklist, I doubt it will be absolutely fruitless. I believe that this deck will only improve come October. In the meantime, it's off to testing.
I believe your missing akey that might make this doable. The alara block obelisks! They would help with colored mana after a DF and would excel effectively and could allow this deck to splash a lot, seeing as we would have access to grixis and naya and jund colors through the respective artifacts. I really like where this deck is going and would love to be helpful in any way I can and this i s a nice little gem imho hehe. Let me know what you think.
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I believe your missing akey that might make this doable. The alara block obelisks! They would help with colored mana after a DF and would excel effectively and could allow this deck to splash a lot, seeing as we would have access to grixis and naya and jund colors through the respective artifacts. I really like where this deck is going and would love to be helpful in any way I can and this i s a nice little gem imho hehe. Let me know what you think.
The input is appreciated, but I do see a few flaws with the Alara Obelisks. Although they do provide acceleration, I don't know how productive they will be seeing as they don't interact well with Voltaic Key. Also, any acceleration I play on turn three I'm hoping that it will provide 2 additional mana. The colored mana issue mana be beneficial for anyone that is splashing a color, and it does fit better into the curve than Dreamstone Hedron. It is something that may be worth looking into.
Borderposts accelerate at a slower pace than the obelisks, although they could help break the semmetry of Destructive Force. Although this is a definate bonus, I guess my preference is to avoid artifact acceleration that only has the potential to provide a single mana, seeing as I don't want to get completely rocked by a maelstrom pulse that hits a couple borderposts or obelisks. My opinion is that Chalice, Hedron and Khalni Gem will get the job done and all of them have the potential to beneficially interact with Voltaic Key. I don't see achieving colored mana ever to be an issue, but the issue is acquiring the quantity of mana necessary to cast spells like Inferno Titan, either Chandra, and the deck's namesake, Destructive Force. Perhaps my sights are set narrow, but I'd rather invest 4 mana to get 2 rather than 3 to get 1.
The main problem with trying to go Budde's original route is that it's easily disrupted and probably borderline unplayable in any competitive sense. I feel that a combination of the original Wildfire methodology coupled with modern planeswalker control and disruption is key to taking it to the next level.
The main problem with trying to go Budde's original route is that it's easily disrupted and probably borderline unplayable in any competitive sense. I feel that a combination of the original Wildfire methodology coupled with modern planeswalker control and disruption is key to taking it to the next level.
QFT. If it doesn't help you accelerate into DF, or help keep them off land once you play it, it shouldn't be considered.
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Only spiderboy4 at High~Light could do it like this! Thanks spidey!
how about using lodestone golem after DF? im pretty sure he can make 2 attacks before your opponent have an answer to him. also, adds another win con other than pwalkers.
also playing him wont be having trouble with colored mana.
how about using lodestone golem after DF? im pretty sure he can make 2 attacks before your opponent have an answer to him. also, adds another win con other than pwalkers.
also playing him wont be having trouble with colored mana.
The problem with Lodestone Golem is that you absolutely cannot drop it before Destructive Force. Doing so will delay the combo and result in Lodestone Golem's forced removal. If I'm playing it, I want to be dropping it on turn four (or turn three with Everflowing Chalice). Not turn eight.
I could be wrong though. I'd be willing to test it out. The main problem I'm having now is figuring what I could cut for it.
EDIT: Another concern is the fact that Lodestone Golem could still be easily removed when it hits the board even subsequent to Destructive Force. Cheap spot removal is played in great abundance in all the colors of the rainbow and will continue to be until October.
QFT. If it doesn't help you accelerate into DF, or help keep them off land once you play it, it shouldn't be considered.
Although rude, I believe you have a point. My point of view for this deck is to give it the goal of achieving one primary goal. Coma, I do understand the power of Jace, and that Mana Leak will be a dominant card in the upcoming year, but Destructive Force is an incredibly powerful card. It'll wipe anything short of Titans off the board (with few exceptions such as a Monument or Phylactery Lich), and will the set the opponent so far back on resources that it will take several turns to recover. This is why my goal with the deck is use lackluster cards such as Ritual and Spawning Breath in order to drop artifact mana and a crystal ball all with the hopes of a DF as early as turn 4-5. If one can land that early, I don't see the need to run cards such as Lightning Bolt, Mana Leak or other pinpoint answers. If creatures become an issue, or if Super Friends is rocking my world, I'd rather inclue Earthquake, All Is Dust, or another card which at least opens the opportunity for a 2-for-1. Understandibly decks such as Mythic, Jund, and UWr will be prevalent for the upcoming months and getting to now this deck and how to run it against each of the preceeding will come in time, and idealing this deck will become more and more tuned to beat these monsters.
I agree that trying to achieve something that resembles Kai Budde's build will have its shortcomings. There just isn't the necessary cards to build a deck on that power level at the moment. But I do think that if we try to at least follow his along the same linear deckstyle, it'll provide better results. The only creature removal ran in his build was 4 Cursed Scrolls and 4 Wildfires, both of which provide some sort of card advantage. We have DF to replace its ancestor, and I believe the best fit for replacing Cursed Scroll is whatever one's preference of Chandra they like. Personally, I like Nalaar better, but in the build I posted previously, Ablaze give better reach. It turns disposable accelerants into Flame Javelins, and Will dig 3 cards deeper to find one of the bomby cards we've been ramping too. I could see a few Nalaar in the sideboard, as dropping one post DF could lock out many aggro decks. Also, Kai Budde's list has better ways to use the mana generate by his mana artifacts. I haven't really done research on red mana sinks but maybe Kargan Dragonlord, Cometstorm, ???. Crystal Ball or Seer's Sundial also seems to be a good way of putting mana to use. There are plenty of things I want to test when I do get this deck put together, it's just a matter of time before I figure out what works for me. Some ideas that I'm throwing around that I believe merit playtesting time:
Lavaball Trap
Golbin Ruinblaster
Roiling Terrain
Siege-Gang Commander (While he's around)
All the color splashes (I honestly think Black will be a strong suitor for this role)
To be honest, I don't have enough time with this deck to give any definate answers about whether it should run as a more combo-like deck or if it would be better to allow the deck some versatility including well-rounded answers to problems, i.e. mana leak and lighting bolt. I guess time will tell.
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NOTICE: Be aware that this post was written when I conceived of Neo Wildfire as a U/R(x) archetype. The archetype has since shifted in multiple directions including G/R, Naya, R/W, and others. This original post will be updated to reflect the ongoing evolution of the archetype as time allows. Until such a time, feel free to think of this original post as a reference point for the Neo Wildfire archetype as a whole and a more specific examination of the original U/R build.
Also, please note that the Roiling Terrain package has since been removed from the U/R build. This original post will reflect the changes to the deck list in the near future.
What is Wildfire?
Wildfire is an archaic competitive archetype that first came to prominence over a decade ago at the hands of the legendary Kai Budde. The deck made use of its namesake Wildfire and an extensive toolbox of mana-generating artifacts in order devastate the opponent's play ability while leaving that of the wielder intact. Wildfire was an artifact-driven control powerhouse that left those unfortunate enough to face it reeling in the face of its undiscriminating scorched-earth tactic.
What is Neo Wildfire?
Neo Wildfire is the rebirth of the original Wildfire archetype. Unlike its predecessor, Neo Wildfire is a combo deck that makes use of the two cards Destructive Force and Roiling Terrain in a concentrated effort to utterly annihilate the opponent by destroying his lands and burning his life total simultaneously. The archetype also incorporates the control and permission elements of Blue in order to prolong the game and protect the combo. The archetype also makes use of planeswalkers and burn spells to hasten the opponent's demise.
The Deck (Work in Progress)
10 Island
11 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
Spells: 35
2 All Is Dust
2 Chandra Nalaar
3 Comet Storm
4 Destructive Force
4 Everflowing Chalice
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Khalni Gem
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
3 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Voltaic Key
1 All Is Dust
4 Burst Lightning
1 Chandra Nalaar
1 Comet Storm
2 Demolish
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Negate
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
Mana Curve
1cc: Lightning Bolt, Voltaic Key (2)
2cc: Everflowing Chalice, Mana Leak (2)
3cc: Comet Storm (1)
4cc: Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Khalni Gem (2)
5cc: Chandra Nalaar, Tezzeret the Seeker (2)
6cc: None
7cc: All Is Dust, Destructive Force (2)
Card Choices
All Is Dust- Fantastic for eliminating problem planeswalkers and the like.
Chain Reaction- Mass removal. Keeps the opponent's creatures in check.
Chandra Nalaar- Persistent threat and alternate win condition. Unaffected by Destructive Force.
Comet Storm- Destroys anything really, including planeswalkers. Alternate wincon.
Demolish- Takes care of Eldrazi Monument.
Destructive Force- The more powerful ancestor of the original Wildfire. The archetype's primary ammunition and half its combo.
Dreamstone Hedron- More artifact-based mana generation, which is essential once Destructive Force has gone off. It it also subject to incredible abuse via Voltaic Key.
Earthquake- Mass removal. Keeps the opponents creatures in check. Alternate win condition.
Everflowing Chalice- Mana acceleration. Essential for recovering from your own Destructive Force.
Goblin Ruinblaster- Removes man-lands and makes Roiling Terrain stronger.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor- Standard's defining card. Persistent threat and alternate win condition. Unaffected by Destructive Force.
Khalni Gem- Bounces your lands for play subsequent to Destructive Force and generates mana. Very synergistic with the deck's strategy.
Lavaball Trap- Additional land destruction and burn. Excellent tech against Turbo Land.
Lightning Bolt- Arguably the best spot removal in Standard.
Lodestone Golem- Alternate wincon that slows any potential recovery on the opponent's part subsequent to Destructive Force.
Mana Leak- An old favorite. The best permission card in Standard.
Mnemonic Wall- Serves the dual purpose of deterring the beats and nets you a Lightning Bolt, Roiling Terran, or Destructive Force you've already played. Card advantage.
Negate- Protects the Destructive Force/Roiling Terrain combo and counters decks like Bant Conscription.
Redirect- Punishing tech against burn and spells like Cruel Ultimatum.
Roiling Terrain- The second half of Neo Wildfire's combo. Roiling Terrain played subsequently to Destructive Force is almost completely impossible for any deck to recover from.
Spreading Seas- One of the best Blue cards in Standard. Disrupts your opponent's mana and provides you with card advantage.
Staggershock- Efficient removal or burn that Rebounds.
Tezzeret the Seeker- Probably the best planeswalker you could play in this deck. He's incredibly powerful and will essentially win the game single handed after you play Destructive Force
Voltaic Key- For abuse with Everflowing Chalice and Khalni Gem, and Dreamstone Hedron, especially subsequent to your Destructive Force.
What Now?
The goal of this thread is to make Neo Wildfire the best archetype it can be. The hope is that it can prove itself as a truly competitive archetype with the release of M11 and the rotation of Alara block. What can you contribute to the archetype? What sort of cards would you play in it? What does your side board look like? Where would you go from here?
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
I'm not feeling the blue splash that much. It feels like its just throwing Jace in because he's Jace and Mana Leak because the deck has blue in it. I mean I'm sure it'll work fine but it just seems like a Devestating Force deck with Jace as opposed to any color synergy being used. Test it and post some results though. I'd be more than happy to eat crow.
Jace has great synergy with Destructive Force though. He fateseals them out of the game.
I chose to splash Blue for Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Mana Leak, essentially. They're just so, so good.
Chandra Ablaze could be seriously effective though, I agree. You could essentially play a Destructive Force for free. The problem is the same as it's always been with it though -- card advantage. Chandra Ablaze has always worked actively against card advantage, and I'm not sure there's enough burn in the deck right now to justify it.
Goblin Ruinblaster seems like a fine addition. I'd definitely consider testing it.
Lodestone Golem works against this deck's strategy. It makes Destructive Force more expensive and dies to it. I'm not seeing the synergy.
I'd be very willing to test Chandra Ablaze, Goblin Ruinblaster, and Khalni Gem (a brilliant suggestion) at this point. I really like Jace, the Mind Sculptor in there as an alternate wincon though. It's so darn versatile and such a threat for your opponent. It also works very well with Destructive Force.
I also like the idea of Mnemonic Wall in the deck, but there isn't really room at the moment.
EDIT: I also really like the idea of Reverberate as a one or two-of in the deck if possible. The only thing more devastating than one Destructive Force is two.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
RG ramp LD with the new Green Titan. Hes perfect with the new 'Wildfire'. And you can still play Roiling Terrain.
The problem is getting the creature onto the field that survives the 5 damage. The original Wildfire decks did that, but it's not so easy in this Standard, and is going to become even more challenging until October.
As for the planeswalkers; I agree entirely. That's why Chandra Nalaar and Jace, the Mind Sculptor are in the deck at the moment. They're immune to Destructive Force and make it incredibly difficult for the opponent to recover from it.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
of course not to overwhelm your hand
but it bounces lands and counters.
prob sideboard tech for counterspells.
Standard:
:symb::symu: Monoblack Devotion (W/ Notion Thief)
Previous Standards:
:symg::symr::symb::symw: Darthsaber
:symg::symw::symr: Naya Midrange
:symg::symw::symr: Naya Pod
:symg::symw::symr: GWr Caw Blade
:symg::symr::symb: Jund
:symu::symw: Merfolk
My Cube
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7854834#post7854834
Exactly. If it were to be played, it would probably be in the sideboard. Mana Leak is just strictly better.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
I hate when people change their avatar's. That's how I identify most people, not by names.
It would be killer tech against Turbo Land. At least sideboard material.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
Deck 4 covetous dragon
1 karn, silver golem
3 masticore
4 cursed scroll
4 fire diamond
4 grim monolith
2 mishra's helix
4 temporal aperture
4 thran dynamo
4 voltaic key
4 wildfire
2 worn powerstone3 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
13 mountain
As I see it, there are 3 parts to the deck: Win conditions, Mana, and mana sinks. Eight win conditions (7 of which survive wildfire without any assistance from interaction with an opponent) are aggressively cost creatures that impose a quick clock, with half of them providing a defensive mechanism. Masticore was tip-top for creatures that kill creatures and came down as early as turn 3. Covetous Dragon was a fast clock that lived through Wildfire, and Karn was one of the best available finishers back in Urza's block besides Stroke of Genius.
Modern day counterparts for these historic creatures will be difficult to come by. Inferno Titan, or any of it's four counterparts, is the most likely creature to be able to live through a Destructive Force. My preference is either this one or Sun Titan, as these two provide the best counter-aggro plan (repeated arc lightnings, recurring wall of omens/lone missionary/pilgrim's eye/ember hauler). Finding a compliment to Inferno Titan has proven difficult. Although the with the degree of artifact acceleration, I believe Lord of Shatterskull Pass is an option worth some amount of playtesting. After a two mana investment he survives Wildfire 2.0, and with time will lock the opponent out of creatures, including most titans (aside from pro-red shenanigans). Another creature that may deserve some amount of testing is Magma Pheonix. Although I wouldn't ever want more than one of these guys, it's recursive nature is a powerful effect.
The second part of the Pro player's deck is 14 ways to use the large quatity of mana he establishes in the the first few turns. These mana sinks include:
Temporal Aperture
Cursed Scroll
Mishra's Helix
Wildfire
The obvious replacement is Destructive Force for Wildfire, but the rest remain shoes which will be difficult to fill. Seeing as we won't have a plethora of artifacts available to use for another three months, the only one I've seen that will be of any use to us is:
Crystal Ball
In a monored version, I believe this will fill a major void in the deck. Card selection in a deck that will most likely run upwards of 35 mana sources is a necessity. Getting through the accelerants and finding a spell or creature that will effect the board is vital and this is in my opinion the best available resource for this deck to get to it's business spells. The only other alternative is Seer's Sundial, but I see many flaws with that card. First is the greater casting cost, (although idealing any 3 or 4 cmc spell will be landing on turn 3 in this deck). Secondly, Crystal Ball's effect is much easier to access at instant speed, and doesn't necessitate an arguable amount of fetchlands in order to keep mana up for the opponents turn. Also, I find that Crystal Ball will be much better in multiples as opposed to multiple Seer's Sundials. And finally, Crystal Ball is another reason to utilize Voltaic Key, where Seer's Sundial in unaffected by it.
As for other ways to utilize the mana available to us, the standard we live in now is much or creature based than the days of Urza's block, so the remaining 6-8 slots might include some amount of removal such as Lightning Bolt, Chandra Nalaar, Chandra Ablaze, Flame Slash, Comet Storm, Earthquake (for the time being), Staggershock, Brittle Effigy etc. Although this is an easy way to fill spots, streamlining the deck to get to a Destructive Force as fast as possible is another option via Pyrectic Ritual, and Eldrazi Spawn cards. Including either of these can result in plays such as a turn 3 double kicked Chalice or Khalni Gem into a Voltaic Key into Crystal Ball (seems ahead of the curve to me). Although inclusion of cards like these would absolutely necessitate some debateable amount of Chandra Ablaze in order to utilize them after the first 4+ turns.
The remainder of Kai's build is lands and artifact mana. A quick annotation:
13 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Fire Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
4 Than Dynamo
2 Worn Powerstone
4 Voltaic Key
20 lands (7 of which produce multiple mana), 8 two-cmc artifact acceleration, 2 three-cmc artifact acceleration, 4 four-cmc artifact acceleration, and 4 one-cmc ultility artifact. Yes Voltaic Key has profitable interactions with other artifacts, but seeing as anything profitable won't happen until you have at least 7 available mana, I'm considering it a mana artifact for this deck's purposes. Today's most valid counterparts are as follows:
Everflowing Chalice
Khalni Gem
Dreamstone Hedron
If there is any hurdle in keeping this contemporary of an oldschool powerhouse from being a tiered deck it is exactly for this reason. The artifact acceleration from Urza's block costed 1, 2, 3, and 4 mana, where the best available today costs 1, 2, 4, and 6. This brings up a couple issues. First, the deck won't be as explosive, giving control decks and creature decks more time to establish a board position that will survive a DF. So either the deck has to focus on ramping up as quick as possible or it has to spread out its resources and use some card slots to handle the threats that do hit the board. This I believe is based on playstyle preference, and a grey area for the deck. Some will choose to take the deck in a more linear route, while others prefer versatility. Personally, I uncertain as to which route will prove more consitent/powerful. I believe both options must be looked into.
Finally I believe we must look into all the color spashes. Altough I will undoubtedly miss viable card options in each color, these are just off the top of my head:
White:
Blue:
Green:
Cultivate/Growth Spasm/Rampant Growth/etc.
Black:
Lilliana Vess
Sorin Markov ?
Grave Titan
Terminate
Sarkahn the Mad ?
Phylactery Lich
Reassembling Skeleton
Bloodghast
As I said I'm sure there are numerous other cards left out, but seeing as it's late and this is simply off the cuff, I apologize. If I were to put all this together into a deck list, it would probably resemble something like the following.
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Khalni Gem
3 Dreamstone Hedron
4 Crystal Ball
3 Voltaic Key
1 Spawning Breath
4 Pyrectic Ritual
3 Inferno Titan
4 Destructive Force
3 Chandra Ablaze
There are a few issues. The first is it's 61 cards and there's nothing I can see that I want to cut. Second, it's easily disrupted. Third, I wish there was some permanent acceleration rather than Spawning Breath and/or Pyrectic Ritual available to us, but at the moment, I believe that these will prove to make the deck more consistent and at least a turn faster.
All in all I believe there is potential here. Although there is no guarentee that SoM will grant us any goodies to bolster this decklist, I doubt it will be absolutely fruitless. I believe that this deck will only improve come October. In the meantime, it's off to testing.
to contribute: i think call to mind from m11 should replace mnemonic wall
My decks
Top 4 (4th) SCG IQ 11/4/12
The input is appreciated, but I do see a few flaws with the Alara Obelisks. Although they do provide acceleration, I don't know how productive they will be seeing as they don't interact well with Voltaic Key. Also, any acceleration I play on turn three I'm hoping that it will provide 2 additional mana. The colored mana issue mana be beneficial for anyone that is splashing a color, and it does fit better into the curve than Dreamstone Hedron. It is something that may be worth looking into.
- H. L. Mencken
French Duel Commander
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
RUG Maelstrom Wanderer RUG
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
QFT. If it doesn't help you accelerate into DF, or help keep them off land once you play it, it shouldn't be considered.
Only spiderboy4 at High~Light could do it like this! Thanks spidey!
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
also playing him wont be having trouble with colored mana.
The problem with Lodestone Golem is that you absolutely cannot drop it before Destructive Force. Doing so will delay the combo and result in Lodestone Golem's forced removal. If I'm playing it, I want to be dropping it on turn four (or turn three with Everflowing Chalice). Not turn eight.
I could be wrong though. I'd be willing to test it out. The main problem I'm having now is figuring what I could cut for it.
EDIT: Another concern is the fact that Lodestone Golem could still be easily removed when it hits the board even subsequent to Destructive Force. Cheap spot removal is played in great abundance in all the colors of the rainbow and will continue to be until October.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
Although rude, I believe you have a point. My point of view for this deck is to give it the goal of achieving one primary goal. Coma, I do understand the power of Jace, and that Mana Leak will be a dominant card in the upcoming year, but Destructive Force is an incredibly powerful card. It'll wipe anything short of Titans off the board (with few exceptions such as a Monument or Phylactery Lich), and will the set the opponent so far back on resources that it will take several turns to recover. This is why my goal with the deck is use lackluster cards such as Ritual and Spawning Breath in order to drop artifact mana and a crystal ball all with the hopes of a DF as early as turn 4-5. If one can land that early, I don't see the need to run cards such as Lightning Bolt, Mana Leak or other pinpoint answers. If creatures become an issue, or if Super Friends is rocking my world, I'd rather inclue Earthquake, All Is Dust, or another card which at least opens the opportunity for a 2-for-1. Understandibly decks such as Mythic, Jund, and UWr will be prevalent for the upcoming months and getting to now this deck and how to run it against each of the preceeding will come in time, and idealing this deck will become more and more tuned to beat these monsters.
I agree that trying to achieve something that resembles Kai Budde's build will have its shortcomings. There just isn't the necessary cards to build a deck on that power level at the moment. But I do think that if we try to at least follow his along the same linear deckstyle, it'll provide better results. The only creature removal ran in his build was 4 Cursed Scrolls and 4 Wildfires, both of which provide some sort of card advantage. We have DF to replace its ancestor, and I believe the best fit for replacing Cursed Scroll is whatever one's preference of Chandra they like. Personally, I like Nalaar better, but in the build I posted previously, Ablaze give better reach. It turns disposable accelerants into Flame Javelins, and Will dig 3 cards deeper to find one of the bomby cards we've been ramping too. I could see a few Nalaar in the sideboard, as dropping one post DF could lock out many aggro decks. Also, Kai Budde's list has better ways to use the mana generate by his mana artifacts. I haven't really done research on red mana sinks but maybe Kargan Dragonlord, Cometstorm, ???. Crystal Ball or Seer's Sundial also seems to be a good way of putting mana to use. There are plenty of things I want to test when I do get this deck put together, it's just a matter of time before I figure out what works for me. Some ideas that I'm throwing around that I believe merit playtesting time:
Lavaball Trap
Golbin Ruinblaster
Roiling Terrain
Siege-Gang Commander (While he's around)
All the color splashes (I honestly think Black will be a strong suitor for this role)
To be honest, I don't have enough time with this deck to give any definate answers about whether it should run as a more combo-like deck or if it would be better to allow the deck some versatility including well-rounded answers to problems, i.e. mana leak and lighting bolt. I guess time will tell.