What do you guys think of this guy. Playing removal to clear the way while at the same time pumping him sounds awesome. However, the only place I can think of him taking right now is Hellspark Elemental or maybe taking out Quenchable Fire and a Burst Lightning for 3 of him. None of those sounds too promising.
he's a weaker and more conditional Plated Geopede and in many builds geopede is getting cut out completely. There's your answer
Honestly I am looking at this set in terms of what will happen once our elementals rotate. I can't think of anything I would change now. At least until I see if walls take off, then I could see us go to more burn heavy deck. Guess I am getting 6 months ahead of myself, but RoE didn't make me think of many things to do with our current deck, right away.
EDIT: Actually, even when all this rotates. I doubt this guy will see play. Surely something in the newer sets will be better than him. You are right.
I can't believe how little respect this guy is getting. It reminds me of when Geopede came out and people didn't think he was any good until they saw it in action.
There are plenty of ways to make room for this guy. First of all, 12 2-drops in RDW doesn't sound too bad to me. He can drastically speed up the curve. If we're talking Boros you've got access to Emerge Unscathed and Staggershock as two ways to really abuse the hell out of this guy, in addition to the usual smattering of Lightning Bolts and Paths.
Even when you compare him directly to the Geopede (who's better than Hellspark in my opinion) he lines up pretty favorably. Geopede attacks as a 3/3 and half the time will deal 5 damage by the end of combat. The Fiend can easily gain 6 power between the start and end of combat. This surprise factor makes chump blocking decisions a lot tougher for an opponent, if you even give them the option.
You have to run a few more removal spells to clear the way for him, but running more direct damage never weakens a deck, especially when you're taking out slow cards like Elspeth or bad cards like Elite Vanguard.
To be honest, I don't like the fact that you HAVE to use cards to make this guy good.
With Geopede you just had to play lands, which you usually would do anyway.
RDW always had problems with not having enough cards in hand, and if this guy is on the field, it just makes it worse.
Not to mention a pretty terrible top deck.
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He lacks staying power against as a result of lacking first strike and promotes wasting cards in hand. Looked decent at first but in play it won't be as good.
I don't even like Plated Geopede all that much (I prefer Searing Blaze by far) and I would rather be using him over this any day.
Plated Geopede is easier to pump than this, and it has first strike which is relevant at times. Also, the Geopede has the option to pump up, Earthquake to sweep, swing for the win.
If you can get it going 10 damage or 6 damage+3 cards over 2 turns doesn't sound bad to me.
If walls become more frequent I can definitely see this work out.
The double blue on Spellblade makes "splashing" more or less impossible. Plus, the card's pretty bad =/
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity and boycotting overpriced singles. Sig this to join the cause for a more affordable Magic the Gathering.
I don't think we should dismiss this guy as weak. He easily gets in for more damage a turn than geopede, he effectively turns all your burn spells into a pseudo searing blaze (assuming they don't kill him ofc), sure he is a horrible topdeck, but so is the geopede, he (the kiln) requires more burn spells than creatures to be in the deck, which is never a bad thing especially considering the fact that RDW creatures are essentially killable burn spells and also the amount of CHEAP removal running around standard these days.
I see what you guys are saying about playing out your hand, but if you do and he gets through then thats some serious dmg. On turn 3 u can swing with him, searing blaze their blocker, bolt to face and he hits for 7........thats 13 dmg!!! AND you killed thier blocker!! Thas not even counting if you had a goblin guide in play already lol. Yea playing out your hand is risky (or stupid depending on the situation), but ffs guys.................its RDW, win now, forget about next turn :P.
I'll do some playtesting of this guy after the pre-release to see just how good he is.
A slight variant on the usual RDW that I'm toying with with the main gameplan being going all-out for a turn 3 win with Devastating Summons+Goblin Bushwhacker. Of course that won't always work, but it's amazing when it does. The deck curves out at 3, which I absolutely love. Red Deck doesn't want to run a lot of land, and I've found commonly run cards like Elemental Appeal and Quenchable Fire to just be inefficient.
I can just see it now, with my luck I have 3 bolts in my hand
T1: Mountain, GG - Player has taken 2 Damage
T2: Mountain, Kiln Fiend, Attack with GG - Player has taken 4 Damage
T3: Mountain, Bolt the creature they played, bolt to face, bolt to face, Attack with Kiln fiend and GG - Player has taken 23 Damage and your shaking hands with them.
That inside a deck that has multiple paths to turn 3/4 wins seems to be pretty cool. I think I'm going to test it out.
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There is no point crying over every mistake, you just keep on trying til you run out of cake.
I can just see it now, with my luck I have 3 bolts in my hand
T1: Mountain, GG - Player has taken 2 Damage
T2: Mountain, Kiln Fiend, Attack with GG - Player has taken 4 Damage
T3: Mountain, Bolt the creature they played, bolt to face, bolt to face, Attack with Kiln fiend and GG - Player has taken 23 Damage and your shaking hands with them.
That inside a deck that has multiple paths to turn 3/4 wins seems to be pretty cool. I think I'm going to test it out.
This is exactly why Kiln Fiend can be so much better than plated geopede if you get a hand with GG, 2 land, kiln, and 3 1-mana burn spells.
If you were to play a turn 2 geopede, you could drop a fetch turn 3, bolt their blocker, swing and crack it dealing 5 from him, 2 from GG and 6 from 2 bolts. thats 11 damage, versus 2 from GG, 10 from the fiend, and 6 to the dome, 18 in total.
Not to mention, if you had forked bolt in your deck you could 2-for-1 2 chump blockers, and still be only using 1 mana for that on turn 3.
I think if you are going for pure speed, the earthquake is not going to do much good in your hand if you sac lands on turn 6 (I cant see any reason playing it earlier b/c they would need haste from kicked bushwhacker), then the next turn have only 1 mana open. Granted you probably only want to cast devastating summons if you are swinging for game, but if the opponent isnt tapped out, they could really fumble your plans with 1 card, while you sacced X land to cast it.
I think if you are going for pure speed, the earthquake is not going to do much good in your hand if you sac lands on turn 6 (I cant see any reason playing it earlier b/c they would need haste from kicked bushwhacker), then the next turn have only 1 mana open. Granted you probably only want to cast devastating summons if you are swinging for game, but if the opponent isnt tapped out, they could really fumble your plans with 1 card, while you sacced X land to cast it.
Yeah, after some more testing I like Burst Lightning better over Earthquake in this build. And of course you only go all out with Devastating Summons if your guaranteed the win. It's not difficult to do it turn 3, though.
This is exactly why Kiln Fiend can be so much better than plated geopede if you get a hand with GG, 2 land, kiln, and 3 1-mana burn spells.
If you were to play a turn 2 geopede, you could drop a fetch turn 3, bolt their blocker, swing and crack it dealing 5 from him, 2 from GG and 6 from 2 bolts. thats 11 damage, versus 2 from GG, 10 from the fiend, and 6 to the dome, 18 in total.
Not to mention, if you had forked bolt in your deck you could 2-for-1 2 chump blockers, and still be only using 1 mana for that on turn 3.
Exactly, and with the amount of burn spells in the deck, even if you dont get your turn 3 kill you could very well draw into something to finish them off on turn 4. Now I'm not saying that this is something that is going to happen often (considering that it is indeed a god hand), but this just add to this list of ways to win on turn 3/4.
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There is no point crying over every mistake, you just keep on trying til you run out of cake.
Exactly, and with the amount of burn spells in the deck, even if you dont get your turn 3 kill you could very well draw into something to finish them off on turn 4. Now I'm not saying that this is something that is going to happen often (considering that it is indeed a god hand), but this just add to this list of ways to win on turn 3/4.
Either him or Plated Geopede will be added after scars. Until then I'm thinking we will be similar to what we have now.
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I think he has a good chance at being an early game ender. If you get him on a draw hand with a couple 1 mana burn spells, or a distortion strike if you want to splash blue, by turn three you'll have the mana to play 3 burns, or 2 burns and a distortion strike...that's a lot of damage to the dome, plus a lot from a very pumped up and potentially unblockable kiln fiend.
I think with plated geopede and goblin guide, you'd have a nice, quick hitting deck.
This guy will be used in a few builds IMO. the fact that you can easily swing with a 7/2 or even 10/2 on turn 3 is good. Not to mention that the opponent's field should be empty thanks to the removal that pumped kiln. Also, staggershock makes this guy even better, although I'm not sure if staggershock should be used in RDW for now.
I might try to make UR aggro splashing blue for Distortion Strike and maybe that counter that targets instants or spell pierce, to protect my big fatty kiln fiend and geopede when I make them huge.
When a spell rebounds does that count as playing the spell again and pumping the fiend?
I find this variant very intriguing/sexy I feel that Seering Blaze is better here than Staggershock...if you run 8 fetches that is plenty to activate landfall on the opponents turn if that is a concern while garunteeing all of your damage gets through
Best Scenario on the play:
T1- Land, GG (18)
T1- Land, Vampire Lacerator/Student of Warfare/etc..
T2- Land, Searing Blaze! GG (13)
T2- Land, Go/Chalice
T3- Land, RRR, DevSummons Kick Bushwacker... (0)
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I seem to be this forum's biggest fan of Plated Geopede, so I'll freely concede bias. However, the Geopede has one relevant major advantage that I can see: It can attack into blockers without dying. This includes Putrid Leech, Sprouting Thrinax, Kor Firewalker and basically everything smaller than Baneslayer Angel. That's what makes the card even relevant against Jund, worth creating vulnerability to Maelstrom Pulse for.
There's another issue that's not as major, but worth mentioning: Burning early blockers out of the way often requires using burn spells poorly, and opens the door to being further blown out by removal. If a Geopede is removed after a landfall or two, very little has been lost in the way of resources; if a Kiln Field is removed after a blocker has been burned (or even the face!), more investment is negated and the road to victory gets steeper.
There are other little advantages Geopede has (toughness pumping, the ability to be a relevant topdeck, running out of spells) but those are the ones that jump out at me. Kiln Fiend is able to swing into a Wall of Omens, though, which is a trait I'm currently shopping for. I think the Wall and its impact might seriously change red deck design, and I'm starting with Kargan Dragonlord and working from there.
@scurvy: i see your point on the risks involved in burning early blockers, however if we are talking about turn 3 - 4 here, i doubt they would have mana for removal if a blocker was played (assuming u went first). I think the rewards for the fiend far out weigh the risks involved in playing him. Also with the geopede gone we can cut some lands to put in more spells (which helps the fiend). Currently i'm testing a build using the fiend in place of the geopede, staggershock in place of hell's thunder and i cut two lands for flame slash. So far it is working really well, i still need to test it against white weenie tho
Kiln Fiend seems better against the goldfish (which literally never happens in Standard) and against decks that feature easily burnable blockers. Those decks are not Jund and UW control, who play creatures that are resilient to Lightning Bolt: creatures like Putrid Leech, Sprouting Thrinax, Nest Invader (which I believe is under discussion), Wall of Omens, Wall of Denial and Calcite Snapper, all of which require double-Bolt to answer or simply can't be targeted.
Kiln Fiend also practically forces you to walk into removal in those two matchups; when exactly can you wait until they tap out? You pretty much have to Bolt and go for it, and if they have the Bolt, Path or Terminate you're eating the loss. And it's my understanding that Jund and UW Control are the top decks in the format right now?
I realize that there are other decks in the format where Kiln Fiend shines, but you really have to start with the top decks when you're analyzing, IMO.
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What do you guys think of this guy. Playing removal to clear the way while at the same time pumping him sounds awesome. However, the only place I can think of him taking right now is Hellspark Elemental or maybe taking out Quenchable Fire and a Burst Lightning for 3 of him. None of those sounds too promising.
Thoughts?
Honestly I am looking at this set in terms of what will happen once our elementals rotate. I can't think of anything I would change now. At least until I see if walls take off, then I could see us go to more burn heavy deck. Guess I am getting 6 months ahead of myself, but RoE didn't make me think of many things to do with our current deck, right away.
EDIT: Actually, even when all this rotates. I doubt this guy will see play. Surely something in the newer sets will be better than him. You are right.
There are plenty of ways to make room for this guy. First of all, 12 2-drops in RDW doesn't sound too bad to me. He can drastically speed up the curve. If we're talking Boros you've got access to Emerge Unscathed and Staggershock as two ways to really abuse the hell out of this guy, in addition to the usual smattering of Lightning Bolts and Paths.
Even when you compare him directly to the Geopede (who's better than Hellspark in my opinion) he lines up pretty favorably. Geopede attacks as a 3/3 and half the time will deal 5 damage by the end of combat. The Fiend can easily gain 6 power between the start and end of combat. This surprise factor makes chump blocking decisions a lot tougher for an opponent, if you even give them the option.
You have to run a few more removal spells to clear the way for him, but running more direct damage never weakens a deck, especially when you're taking out slow cards like Elspeth or bad cards like Elite Vanguard.
With Geopede you just had to play lands, which you usually would do anyway.
RDW always had problems with not having enough cards in hand, and if this guy is on the field, it just makes it worse.
Not to mention a pretty terrible top deck.
2nd @ PTQ San Juan 2010 [RDW]
3rd @ Provincials 2011 [Solar Flare]
1st @ GPT Orlando 2011 [Mono G Wolf Run]
T8'd @ GPT LA 2012 [UW Delver]
T8'd @ GPT Vancouver 2012 [RW Humans]
T8'd @ GPT Toronto 2012 [UWR Midrange]
Attended GP Toronto 2012, but didn't get there [UR Twin]
Currently top 8'd every GPT I ever entered
sup.
Plated Geopede is easier to pump than this, and it has first strike which is relevant at times. Also, the Geopede has the option to pump up, Earthquake to sweep, swing for the win.
The double blue on Spellblade makes "splashing" more or less impossible. Plus, the card's pretty bad =/
I see what you guys are saying about playing out your hand, but if you do and he gets through then thats some serious dmg. On turn 3 u can swing with him, searing blaze their blocker, bolt to face and he hits for 7........thats 13 dmg!!! AND you killed thier blocker!! Thas not even counting if you had a goblin guide in play already lol. Yea playing out your hand is risky (or stupid depending on the situation), but ffs guys.................its RDW, win now, forget about next turn :P.
I'll do some playtesting of this guy after the pre-release to see just how good he is.
4 Goblin Guide
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Plated Geopede
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Ball Lightning
4 Hell's Thunder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Devastating Summons
4 Earthquake / Burst Lightning (Unsure)
4 Staggershock
12 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
Legacy
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Dragon Stompy
:symw::symb::symg: Dark Horizons
:symg::symw::symr: Enchantress
T1: Mountain, GG - Player has taken 2 Damage
T2: Mountain, Kiln Fiend, Attack with GG - Player has taken 4 Damage
T3: Mountain, Bolt the creature they played, bolt to face, bolt to face, Attack with Kiln fiend and GG - Player has taken 23 Damage and your shaking hands with them.
That inside a deck that has multiple paths to turn 3/4 wins seems to be pretty cool. I think I'm going to test it out.
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This is exactly why Kiln Fiend can be so much better than plated geopede if you get a hand with GG, 2 land, kiln, and 3 1-mana burn spells.
If you were to play a turn 2 geopede, you could drop a fetch turn 3, bolt their blocker, swing and crack it dealing 5 from him, 2 from GG and 6 from 2 bolts. thats 11 damage, versus 2 from GG, 10 from the fiend, and 6 to the dome, 18 in total.
Not to mention, if you had forked bolt in your deck you could 2-for-1 2 chump blockers, and still be only using 1 mana for that on turn 3.
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RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
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Yeah, after some more testing I like Burst Lightning better over Earthquake in this build. And of course you only go all out with Devastating Summons if your guaranteed the win. It's not difficult to do it turn 3, though.
Turn 1: Goblin Guide
Turn 2: Hellspark or Plated Geopede
Turn 3: Devastating Summons, kicked Bushwhacker.
If all of your damage went through, that should be game. If you had the turn 1 guide, turn 2 geopede, turn 3 fetch, then it's way overkill even.
Exactly, and with the amount of burn spells in the deck, even if you dont get your turn 3 kill you could very well draw into something to finish them off on turn 4. Now I'm not saying that this is something that is going to happen often (considering that it is indeed a god hand), but this just add to this list of ways to win on turn 3/4.
---------------------------------------------------
My Dad Ripping up my Black Lotus :'(
Either him or Plated Geopede will be added after scars. Until then I'm thinking we will be similar to what we have now.
Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
I think with plated geopede and goblin guide, you'd have a nice, quick hitting deck.
Truth. If the deck stays spell heavy I could see Kiln Fiend going in then.
When a spell rebounds does that count as playing the spell again and pumping the fiend?
Best Scenario on the play:
T1- Land, GG (18)
T1- Land, Vampire Lacerator/Student of Warfare/etc..
T2- Land, Searing Blaze! GG (13)
T2- Land, Go/Chalice
T3- Land, RRR, DevSummons Kick Bushwacker... (0)
RPurphoros' AnvilR
UGEdric DredgeGU
XKarn, Silver Golem- Arte FactumX
WUBRGSliver Queen PlaneswalkersGRBUW
WBObzedat the Ghost DadBW
RUGMaelstrom Wanderer Good StuffGUR
--French 1v1 EDH--
WUGeistWU
--Pauper EDH--
WRBlaze CommandoWR
There's another issue that's not as major, but worth mentioning: Burning early blockers out of the way often requires using burn spells poorly, and opens the door to being further blown out by removal. If a Geopede is removed after a landfall or two, very little has been lost in the way of resources; if a Kiln Field is removed after a blocker has been burned (or even the face!), more investment is negated and the road to victory gets steeper.
There are other little advantages Geopede has (toughness pumping, the ability to be a relevant topdeck, running out of spells) but those are the ones that jump out at me. Kiln Fiend is able to swing into a Wall of Omens, though, which is a trait I'm currently shopping for. I think the Wall and its impact might seriously change red deck design, and I'm starting with Kargan Dragonlord and working from there.
Kiln Fiend also practically forces you to walk into removal in those two matchups; when exactly can you wait until they tap out? You pretty much have to Bolt and go for it, and if they have the Bolt, Path or Terminate you're eating the loss. And it's my understanding that Jund and UW Control are the top decks in the format right now?
I realize that there are other decks in the format where Kiln Fiend shines, but you really have to start with the top decks when you're analyzing, IMO.