I've been toying around with this deck since it was URGw and I've always run into some trouble with consistency. I know the Ponder/Preordain package helps a lot but my big question is: What do you look for for a keepable hand? What's an ideal hand vs an okay hand vs a bad hand? What are the best things to look for?
Don't worry about not drawing into Pyromancer Ascension in your initial seven. The deck fixes itself to the point where it's almost impossible to not draw into one in a timely fashion (provided you're playing four of them of course, which you should be).
Has anyone tried Time Reversal in the deck as a 1-of or is it more of a win more card? Once you have an active Ascension, you don't need cards in the graveyard and this is a fantastic way to refuel your hand (should you ever slow down on gas) and can bring back some much needed burn ftw.
I have an ascension build I played at a new shop last night. Went 3 - 2.
I'm surprised no one added Volcanic Fallout to thier sideboard. I have 4 of them in there, and it wrecks aggro decks. The problem is so much SB hate.
I'm thinking of building a SB that changes the deck from a combo deck to a creature deck. What I saw happenieng was that a lot of people have a LOT of creature removal in thier decks that are worthless round 1, so you have a lot of card advantage. Round 2 they board out ALL thier creature removal and voard in a lot of ways to deal with the ascension, so I was thinking for round 2 board out the ascension and time wars and call to minds and boarding in creatures (probably 4 Goblin Guides, 4 Kiln Fiends, 4 of some other creature (or more burn) and 3 Distortions Strikes) and use that to take round 2, since all the enchantment hate they just boarded is no good anymore.
Has anyone tried Time Reversal in the deck as a 1-of or is it more of a win more card? Once you have an active Ascension, you don't need cards in the graveyard and this is a fantastic way to refuel your hand (should you ever slow down on gas) and can bring back some much needed burn ftw.
I don't really see it as necessary. It seems more of a win-more card, as you wrote, and a clumsy one at that. You DO want things going into your graveyard, regardless of whether or not you've Pyromancer Ascension or Call to Mind loaded. You also don't really need to worry about running out of gas, because Time Warp essentially guarantees you all the time and draws you'll ever need. Perhaps once rotation hits it'll be worth another look. But at the moment, I'd much rather drop five mana on Time Warp rather than Time Reversal.
@glassthegrey: this deck feels like it needs day of judgement, i would md 3-4. if you have a control heavy meta, at least sb them.
there are several issues with Day of Judgement. There are only 4 sources of white mana in the deck. while there are 6 fetches for white you only ever want 1 in play at any moment. also you really want RRR available by turn 4 as you're trying to go off turn 5.
Volcanic Fallout + Earthquake will have to suffice for board sweepers, also with 4 bolt, 4 burst, 4 path the only deck that will usually have more than 2 creatures out at any time is elves really. most other decks burn you can keep down with burn on their first 2 creatures, then silence with a clear board.
Why don't any of the list run Grixis colors just for Blightning and Cruel Ultimatum? Also, why no Staggershock? I feel like Rebound was just made to work with the Ascension.
a friend of mine played this a while back, he had tons of mana issues, in the end Cruel Ultimatum was just far too expensive.
3 Swerve
4 Flashfreeze
2 Dispel
1 Into the Roil
3 Forked Bolt
2 Burst Lightning
The Dispels were originally Spell Pierce's but we changed those to dispels because of the severe amount of counter magic in our meta. I've been skeptical about the flashfreezes and swerves. Any advice on how to better the board? The last time I went to FNM there were multiple polymorphs, jund lists, pyromancers lists, and valakut decks. I was lucky enough to play against a goblins deck with hard burn...I love refueling the fire :/
If jund is at all popular in your area, spell pierce is a must. Its also hard to critique your SB without seeing your main deck and knowing your meta. Aside from the core of the deck, just about everything else is a meta call.
As for the control matchup, spell pierce plays almost exactly the same as dispel against u/w control. Basically you wait to trap until they tap out to animate a land, or cast a baneslayer, then in the ensuring counter war you run them out of mana. Dispel isn't going to be any better than spell pierce when they are holding onto a negate. What gives us the advantage here is our 1 cost and 2 counters. I personally run 4 pierce main, and 2 dispel SB, but if it came down to one or the other I would choose pierce over dispel.
Other decks running counters can be a bit more of a problem since they won't always tap 5+ for a wincon like u/w does. For example I having a really rough time with dredgevine, although SB whiplash and permafrost trap really help that.
I have had a lot of Sucess with this build (hasn't lost a match yet). I am considering adding the old polymorph in while its still legal but I'll wait till someone can do anything about it first.
I know it doesnt kill the turn it comes out but Iona usualy shuts them down and the kill is next turn. The captain is there becuase he can be hard cast and isn't bad for making chump blockers if he comes out next to one of the bigger fatties.
I am considering tossing a one turn kill combo in the sideboard but it wont be legal for much longer. I have found thasgt most people focus on the mass ploymorph ( game 2) and Jace. The real killer in this deck tends to be Garruk since the deck makes tokes very easily I often kill with him even if they break the combo.
I've been playtesting one and decided to go G/U/w with it, basically ramping into Mass Polymorph and hitting Stormtide, Emrakul, and Iona. It's got Madrush Cyclops in the board.
Until it rotates, Martial Coup is awesome here. It can wipe the board if need be, but it can even be used to get 3 tokens on T5 and then polymorph on T6.
I've been running Silence maindeck, not sure on it yet. It stops counterspells for MP or burn on your tokens. It's also a time warp against some decks if you cast it on their upkeep (Valakut Ramp has pretty much nothing to do but harrow in response).
I like MP better than the original, since it alleviates the major problem of having a single token killed in response.
Madrush is definitely necessary for the matchup against UW Control, as their only instant speed removal is white, so naming white with Iona means they can't cast it. From there, Jace is usually the only threat as it can bounce your creatures, but Madrush alleviates that problem by hasting you for the win.
Please post some FNM/tournament reports - I'm thinking about running my MP deck in a few days, and would like the tips!
What colors do you name with Iona based on the opponent's deck? I'm thinking:
UW - name white, all their instant removal is white
Valakut - Green, all the ramp/titan is green
Bant - name white, prevent path, sovereigns, baneslayer
RDW - obviously red
Vamps - obviously black
Jund - black, stops terminate and doom blade
Naya - white? to stop path. Our deck is too slow to stop Fauna shaman from entering play
I've been playing around with this deck and Polymorph side. I've been running into problems playing against the non-valakut ramp, like mono-green or G/w titans or summoning traps into big Eldrazi. Any suggestions on how to shore this up? This is my list:
Basically, I have found the deck pretty solid. I like the SB plan a lot. Even if people suspect it, they can't really afford to not SB against the Ascension strategy unless they are willing to take a huge risk or are dead certain that you are planning on SBing into poly. The main thing is to try and avoid playing a Khalni Garden g1 to let them know. I rarely have trouble with that thanks to see beyond. Anyway, like I said, the main problem I have been having has been with ramp decks. Our burn doesn't kill their creatures before ascension comes online (or ever post board). If Idon't counter their ramp, they'll have an easy time of getting around my mana leaks, and if I do counter their ramp, they'll eventually get their mana set up anyway and I'll be light on counters. Also, it is difficult to justify countering a green creature spell from their deck thanks to summoning trap, so Primeval Titan is kind of a nightmare. Any suggestions on how to effectively deal with this deck?
I've been playing around with this deck and Polymorph side. I've been running into problems playing against the non-valakut ramp, like mono-green or G/w titans or summoning traps into big Eldrazi. Any suggestions on how to shore this up? This is my list:
Basically, I have found the deck pretty solid. I like the SB plan a lot. Even if people suspect it, they can't really afford to not SB against the Ascension strategy unless they are willing to take a huge risk or are dead certain that you are planning on SBing into poly. The main thing is to try and avoid playing a Khalni Garden g1 to let them know. I rarely have trouble with that thanks to see beyond. Anyway, like I said, the main problem I have been having has been with ramp decks. Our burn doesn't kill their creatures before ascension comes online (or ever post board). If Idon't counter their ramp, they'll have an easy time of getting around my mana leaks, and if I do counter their ramp, they'll eventually get their mana set up anyway and I'll be light on counters. Also, it is difficult to justify countering a green creature spell from their deck thanks to summoning trap, so Primeval Titan is kind of a nightmare. Any suggestions on how to effectively deal with this deck?
Hmmm... maybe we should try putting some Spell Pierces and Negates in our SB... but what cards in the SB should be replaced?
I agree with this statement. I do like the Phyrexian one a lot more than the Mirran one, but I think I'll stick with my "What Color Would You Like Me To Beat You With Today?" and ":symtap: That Ass" shirts.
I honestly don't like the Polymorph Sideboard stradegy. especially since your token generator is a maindeck land you Don't want to see game 1, the reason why Polymorph decks work is because of the ramp AND multiple token generators.
if you're going to SB into a polymorph package your board should be 1 Emrakul, 4 Polymorph, 3 Goblin Assault, 3 Spawning breath, just so you're not twittling your thumbs waiting for a token.
As for how to beat ramp if it's creature-based you just burninate their creeatures, if it's a valakut style you Have to board in more counterspells. If you are not trying to hide a garden you can run Tectonic edge which kills their manlands and valakut.
I'm working on a deck that splashes green for Cultivate (might be better than forsee) But also gives Nature's Spiral in the board for matchups where people are going to try to kill your ascension.
So, I played a R/W/U variant last night (MNM) and went 2-2. I was wrecked by Naya Shaman/Vengevine (0-2) in both loses. I had a full compliment of pyroclasm and whiplash trap boarded in G2 of each round, but neither really did much against hasty Vengevine, especially when they pitch the second into the grave for blood braid elf and then cast it swinging for 11. Even if I had put Day of Judgement into the SB (again splashing white), the odds are that they will recast multiple [/CARD]vengevine[/CARD] the next turn for lethal. Any thoughts on how to combat this deck? Tonight I am pulling forked bolt for earthquake, and SB will hold a compliment of Path to Exile. I am also contemplating Relic of Progenitus in the SB, but that could totally kill the Ascension combo. Bojuka Bog is another option, but my mana base is so tight at this time, I cant contemplate trying to fit those in.
I was also quite disappointed with forked bolt. At sorcery speed it was a bit too slow. Also the moment I see a bird drop T1, I have to kill it on my turn and pass the other dmg to the player. It is also somewhat dead to multiple x/2 or x/3 creature boards (which Naya Shaman/Vengevine appears to get to quickly). I am hoping that Earthquake will make a good replacement.
So, I played a R/W/U variant last night (MNM) and went 2-2. I was wrecked by Naya Shaman/Vengevine (0-2) in both loses. I had a full compliment of pyroclasm and whiplash trap boarded in G2 of each round, but neither really did much against hasty Vengevine, especially when they pitch the second into the grave for blood braid elf and then cast it swinging for 11. Even if I had put Day of Judgement into the SB (again splashing white), the odds are that they will recast multiple [/card]vengevine[/card] the next turn for lethal. Any thoughts on how to combat this deck? Tonight I am pulling forked bolt for earthquake, and SB will hold a compliment of Path to Exile. I am also contemplating Relic of Progenitus in the SB, but that could totally kill the Ascension combo. Bojuka Bog is another option, but my mana base is so tight at this time, I cant contemplate trying to fit those in.
I was also quite disappointed with forked bolt. At sorcery speed it was a bit too slow. Also the moment I see a bird drop T1, I have to kill it on my turn and pass the other dmg to the player. It is also somewhat dead to multiple x/2 or x/3 creature boards (which Naya Shaman/Vengevine appears to get to quickly). I am hoping that Earthquake will make a good replacement.
I think 4 path main is the reason you splash for white in this deck. Can I see the list you're running?
I know most people think going infinite is the weakest way to win the game, but it's also a necessary evil against a deck like Soul Sisters that will live outside of your feasible burn range. So my version of the deck only really runs the bare minimum needed to go infinite. The twincasts (or reverberates) are just something I like to throw into decks like these because you never know when someone is going to be a sweetheart and Give you something to kill them with, it's also good for countering counterspells.
I think 4 path main is the reason you splash for white in this deck. Can I see the list you're running?
I typically don't show my decks as I don't like to "netdeck", but instead hybridizing them into something new (hence adding W). With that being said, my deck is not the typical Pyro deck... It looks something like:
So some explanation: Rest for the weary. With no ascension, i gain 8 life on T2, usually putting me out of reach of RDW, and giving me a life cushion to run Survival Cache. Most games, I gain 15+ life. It has done wonders against Megrim and RDW. Survival Cache. It gains life and draws cards. With Rebound. Amazing if one is in grave and you need to level an Ascension. It levels it on both cast and rebound. With Ascension online it gains and draws 2 or 3 or 4 times. Not good at all if you are less life than opponent. Again, that is why Rest for the Weary is also in the deck. Regress. Bounces anything. I really enjoyed last night with 2 Ascensions online, bouncing every permanent my opponent had on the board with 2 regress and a call to mind (and 2 extra turns). I ran out of extra turns, but he was so far behind (not to mention his massive discard at end of turn) that he scooped. It also does wonders against big creatures/leveling/cards with counters that bolt type cards may not handle. Earthquake. New to the deck. My hope is with the massive life gain this deck has that Earthquake can safely be deployed to wipe huge board positions. Also can be used as a finisher. Grixis Panorama. An a bit slower Scalding Tairn. Why not use Evolving Wilds? Well this card can tap for colorless and there are times when I dont need another Island or Mountain. Elspeth, Knight-Errant. It adds creatures to an otherwise creatureless deck (ignoring the 2 Colonnades). 1/1 Chump blockers are amazing. And if you can Timewarp, she will almost always make things indestructible. Also can pump the Colonnades to get around Jar Jar Sphinx. I tried both Jace 2.0 and Ajani V., but I end up with Elspeth as she can just stall the game until I infinite.
No MD counterspells. I couldnt find room for them, and honestly I dont mind too much if they counter my spells when an Ascension is in play as I still get the counter. Once Ascension (or two) is online, feel free to counter a spell of mine, I still get the copy[ies]
I will be using this deck tonight (TNM) and will post results tomorrow.
I'm working on a deck that splashes green for Cultivate (might be better than forsee) But also gives Nature's Spiral in the board for matchups where people are going to try to kill your ascension.
I like the thought of green as it could also play Naturalize. My biggest concern is running into Leyline of the Void. I can regress the enchantment, but I cannot remove it entirely. Has anyone else ran into a U/B mill with these Leylines? How do you deal with them? I have Negate SB, but that is not going to help if they open the game with one in play. I was thinking Demystify, but that is really narrow (only targets enchantments).
Stick to the colours where they can remove Iona in. Like if the have white or black. Red often remove Iona but they have to double up spells and or ramp a realy big fireball.
The reason you people have problems with Vengevine decks and Soul Sisters is because you have abandoned consistency for cute tricks...you shouldn't care about creatures unless they are in a critical mass before t5.
W splash does work for example, but not with the cards you all are playing with. Elspeth? in a deck that is trying to charge up an enchantment by puting instants and sorceries in the yard? Rest for the Weary is on the right track
You shouldn't need board wipe...you shouldn't need creatures, etc...if you do, you are playing a control deck.
Creatures and tricks come in after board when they gun for your ascensions. The beauty of this deck is that it keeps the opponent guessing and has the potential to just make your opponent's draws completely dead...
I swear, Wizards has done such a good job of screwing combo that people have forgotten how to play it...
Age old problem...holding back for counters to stop the more aggro decks, or getting a search spell or green token/ramp off? Leyline of Anticipation seems to have it covered, and I'm having some success with it. We also don't need to splash white with All Is Dust in the format, and red can be hurt quite badly with Elixir of Immortality - the reshuffle helpful vs some other decks (mill etc.)
There are reasons not to run these spells (AIDust destroying own Jace/AZone/Leyline), but in the meantime I'm winning FNMs.
Private Mod Note
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Some have said embermages lack subtlety. You know what? THEY'RE ALL DEAD!! :mad1:
The reason you people have problems with Vengevine decks and Soul Sisters is because you have abandoned consistency for cute tricks...you shouldn't care about creatures unless they are in a critical mass before t5.
W splash does work for example, but not with the cards you all are playing with. Elspeth? in a deck that is trying to charge up an enchantment by puting instants and sorceries in the yard? Rest for the Weary is on the right track
You shouldn't need board wipe...you shouldn't need creatures, etc...if you do, you are playing a control deck.
Creatures and tricks come in after board when they gun for your ascensions. The beauty of this deck is that it keeps the opponent guessing and has the potential to just make your opponent's draws completely dead...
I swear, Wizards has done such a good job of screwing combo that people have forgotten how to play it...
/rant
So, my white is in there to stall past T5 and give me an alternative win condition. Frequently I find that I do not have an Ascension online by T5. Perhaps I am not mulliganing enough, or perhaps my ascensions clump up in the deck (ie not shuffling enough), but ponders/preordains are not always finding the ascensions.
Example: Bad luck last night as I managed to find 1 ascension in time within 3 rounds (by "in time" I imply that when they have me in single digit life with creatures in play, top decking an ascension is not really good.).
As for not having enough instants/sorceries, yes the Elspeth does reduce my board down by 2, but 34 spells over 32 only gives you an additional ~4% chance of drawing an instant/sorcery. When we are talking a ~59.6% vs 55.8% draw on T1 (assuming 3 spells in opening hand), I really dont feel that there is that much of an advantage.
So, all that being said, I am not really looking to start an argument. As mentioned in my earlier post, I am trying to verge off slightly from the "Standard Ascension Deck". Elspeth was a thought, though I am now leaning toward deeper drawing cards.
Side note: BSA/Kiln Fiend seem like interesting SB cards. They pull removal, you bring in creatures. It seems good against control, but what about creature heavy decks?
Also if I could ask, what is your typical SB choices to bring creatures in?
So, my white is in there to stall past T5 and give me an alternative win condition. Frequently I find that I do not have an Ascension online by T5. Perhaps I am not mulliganing enough, or perhaps my ascensions clump up in the deck (ie not shuffling enough), but ponders/preordains are not always finding the ascensions.
Example: Bad luck last night as I managed to find 1 ascension in time within 3 rounds (by "in time" I imply that when they have me in single digit life with creatures in play, top decking an ascension is not really good.).
As for not having enough instants/sorceries, yes the Elspeth does reduce my board down by 2, but 34 spells over 32 only gives you an additional ~4% chance of drawing an instant/sorcery. When we are talking a ~59.6% vs 55.8% draw on T1 (assuming 3 spells in opening hand), I really dont feel that there is that much of an advantage.
So, all that being said, I am not really looking to start an argument. As mentioned in my earlier post, I am trying to verge off slightly from the "Standard Ascension Deck". Elspeth was a thought, though I am now leaning toward deeper drawing cards.
Side note: BSA/Kiln Fiend seem like interesting SB cards. They pull removal, you bring in creatures. It seems good against control, but what about creature heavy decks?
We generally pwn aggro, you just have to play slowly and use your life total as a resource. Calculate the amount of potential damage your opponent can deal to you before you pass your next turn, which requires that you know their deck and plays they make (which you get from playtesting against a gauntlet of good Type 2 decks [ie Jund, Soul Sisters, Mythic]). Burn/Bounce stuff that matters and then go off...
The other problem is that you are relying on Ponder and Preordain only, with a little help from Survival Cache. I also play See Beyond and Foresee. You need all the dig you can get your dirty little hands on as there are no tutors for Ascension...This is where your consistency breaks down. Earthquake is no good, as you are often behind when you cast it and your life total is too precious to wipe the board just for them to repopulate again and have to deal less damage to you.
Try my build and see if your problems are at least mitigated.
I am not trying to argue either...I am just trying to help in my own annoyed, misanthropic way
I see a lot of people saying that the infinite turn wincon is unnecessary and inferior. What would be a good list for a PA deck that goes without that strategy?
Don't worry about not drawing into Pyromancer Ascension in your initial seven. The deck fixes itself to the point where it's almost impossible to not draw into one in a timely fashion (provided you're playing four of them of course, which you should be).
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
I'm surprised no one added Volcanic Fallout to thier sideboard. I have 4 of them in there, and it wrecks aggro decks. The problem is so much SB hate.
I'm thinking of building a SB that changes the deck from a combo deck to a creature deck. What I saw happenieng was that a lot of people have a LOT of creature removal in thier decks that are worthless round 1, so you have a lot of card advantage. Round 2 they board out ALL thier creature removal and voard in a lot of ways to deal with the ascension, so I was thinking for round 2 board out the ascension and time wars and call to minds and boarding in creatures (probably 4 Goblin Guides, 4 Kiln Fiends, 4 of some other creature (or more burn) and 3 Distortions Strikes) and use that to take round 2, since all the enchantment hate they just boarded is no good anymore.
I don't really see it as necessary. It seems more of a win-more card, as you wrote, and a clumsy one at that. You DO want things going into your graveyard, regardless of whether or not you've Pyromancer Ascension or Call to Mind loaded. You also don't really need to worry about running out of gas, because Time Warp essentially guarantees you all the time and draws you'll ever need. Perhaps once rotation hits it'll be worth another look. But at the moment, I'd much rather drop five mana on Time Warp rather than Time Reversal.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
there are several issues with Day of Judgement. There are only 4 sources of white mana in the deck. while there are 6 fetches for white you only ever want 1 in play at any moment. also you really want RRR available by turn 4 as you're trying to go off turn 5.
Volcanic Fallout + Earthquake will have to suffice for board sweepers, also with 4 bolt, 4 burst, 4 path the only deck that will usually have more than 2 creatures out at any time is elves really. most other decks burn you can keep down with burn on their first 2 creatures, then silence with a clear board.
a friend of mine played this a while back, he had tons of mana issues, in the end Cruel Ultimatum was just far too expensive.
3 Swerve
4 Flashfreeze
2 Dispel
1 Into the Roil
3 Forked Bolt
2 Burst Lightning
The Dispels were originally Spell Pierce's but we changed those to dispels because of the severe amount of counter magic in our meta. I've been skeptical about the flashfreezes and swerves. Any advice on how to better the board? The last time I went to FNM there were multiple polymorphs, jund lists, pyromancers lists, and valakut decks. I was lucky enough to play against a goblins deck with hard burn...I love refueling the fire :/
Anyways, suggestions are definitely welcomed
Standard:
UGR Goodstuff
UR Force
Extended:
WW Weenie
As for the control matchup, spell pierce plays almost exactly the same as dispel against u/w control. Basically you wait to trap until they tap out to animate a land, or cast a baneslayer, then in the ensuring counter war you run them out of mana. Dispel isn't going to be any better than spell pierce when they are holding onto a negate. What gives us the advantage here is our 1 cost and 2 counters. I personally run 4 pierce main, and 2 dispel SB, but if it came down to one or the other I would choose pierce over dispel.
Other decks running counters can be a bit more of a problem since they won't always tap 5+ for a wincon like u/w does. For example I having a really rough time with dredgevine, although SB whiplash and permafrost trap really help that.
RGStandard Gruul AggroRG
2 Celestial Colonnade
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Island
3 forest
3 Glacial Fortress
3 Khalni Garden
1 plain
1 Terramorphic expance
1 Halimar Depths
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Stirring Wildwood
Creatures
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Ulamog the infinite Gyre
1 Captain of the watch
1 Iona Shield Of Emeria
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Avenger Of Zendikar
4 Mana Leak
3 See Beyond
4 Growth Spasm
3 Jace, The mind sculptor
3 Garruk, Wildspeaker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Time warp
3 Martial Coup
2 Everflowing Chalice
4 Mass Polymorph
3 spreading seas
1 Terastodon
2 day of judgment
1 Pelakka Wurm
3 kor Firewalkers
4 summoning traps
1 Oblivion Ring
I know it doesnt kill the turn it comes out but Iona usualy shuts them down and the kill is next turn. The captain is there becuase he can be hard cast and isn't bad for making chump blockers if he comes out next to one of the bigger fatties.
I am considering tossing a one turn kill combo in the sideboard but it wont be legal for much longer. I have found thasgt most people focus on the mass ploymorph ( game 2) and Jace. The real killer in this deck tends to be Garruk since the deck makes tokes very easily I often kill with him even if they break the combo.
Let me know whast you think
Until it rotates, Martial Coup is awesome here. It can wipe the board if need be, but it can even be used to get 3 tokens on T5 and then polymorph on T6.
I've been running Silence maindeck, not sure on it yet. It stops counterspells for MP or burn on your tokens. It's also a time warp against some decks if you cast it on their upkeep (Valakut Ramp has pretty much nothing to do but harrow in response).
I like MP better than the original, since it alleviates the major problem of having a single token killed in response.
Madrush is definitely necessary for the matchup against UW Control, as their only instant speed removal is white, so naming white with Iona means they can't cast it. From there, Jace is usually the only threat as it can bounce your creatures, but Madrush alleviates that problem by hasting you for the win.
Please post some FNM/tournament reports - I'm thinking about running my MP deck in a few days, and would like the tips!
Here's my deck list:
4 Khalni Garden
4 Celestial Colonnade
5 Forest
4 Island
4 Plains
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Martial Coup
2 Spell Pierce
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 See Beyond
3 Awakening Zone
4 Silence
4 Mass Polymorph
4 Mana Leak
4 Rampant Growth
4 Growth Spasm
2 Martial Coup
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flashfreeze
1 Madrush Cyclops
3 Spreading Seas
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Deprive
Edit:
What colors do you name with Iona based on the opponent's deck? I'm thinking:
UW - name white, all their instant removal is white
Valakut - Green, all the ramp/titan is green
Bant - name white, prevent path, sovereigns, baneslayer
RDW - obviously red
Vamps - obviously black
Jund - black, stops terminate and doom blade
Naya - white? to stop path. Our deck is too slow to stop Fauna shaman from entering play
Currently Playing:
4 Pyromancer Ascension
Instants:
4 Burst Lightning
2 Into the Roil
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
Sorceries:
2 Call to Mind
3 Foresee
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 See Beyond
3 Time Warp
10 Island
5 Mountain
3 Khalni Garden
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Dispel
2 Flashfreeze
4 Spawning Breath
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Progenitus
4 Polymorph
Basically, I have found the deck pretty solid. I like the SB plan a lot. Even if people suspect it, they can't really afford to not SB against the Ascension strategy unless they are willing to take a huge risk or are dead certain that you are planning on SBing into poly. The main thing is to try and avoid playing a Khalni Garden g1 to let them know. I rarely have trouble with that thanks to see beyond. Anyway, like I said, the main problem I have been having has been with ramp decks. Our burn doesn't kill their creatures before ascension comes online (or ever post board). If Idon't counter their ramp, they'll have an easy time of getting around my mana leaks, and if I do counter their ramp, they'll eventually get their mana set up anyway and I'll be light on counters. Also, it is difficult to justify countering a green creature spell from their deck thanks to summoning trap, so Primeval Titan is kind of a nightmare. Any suggestions on how to effectively deal with this deck?
Hmmm... maybe we should try putting some Spell Pierces and Negates in our SB... but what cards in the SB should be replaced?
"...show weakness to hide true strength"
if you're going to SB into a polymorph package your board should be 1 Emrakul, 4 Polymorph, 3 Goblin Assault, 3 Spawning breath, just so you're not twittling your thumbs waiting for a token.
As for how to beat ramp if it's creature-based you just burninate their creeatures, if it's a valakut style you Have to board in more counterspells. If you are not trying to hide a garden you can run Tectonic edge which kills their manlands and valakut.
I'm working on a deck that splashes green for Cultivate (might be better than forsee) But also gives Nature's Spiral in the board for matchups where people are going to try to kill your ascension.
I was also quite disappointed with forked bolt. At sorcery speed it was a bit too slow. Also the moment I see a bird drop T1, I have to kill it on my turn and pass the other dmg to the player. It is also somewhat dead to multiple x/2 or x/3 creature boards (which Naya Shaman/Vengevine appears to get to quickly). I am hoping that Earthquake will make a good replacement.
EDH:▼
(links to 3D generals)
Playing: Designing:
Retired:
I think 4 path main is the reason you splash for white in this deck. Can I see the list you're running?
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
5 mountain
7 Islands
3 Tectonic Edge
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
3 See Beyond
2 Call to Mind
1 Time Warp
3 Burst Lightning
4 Path To Exile
2 into the roil
4 mana leak
2 Twincast
I know most people think going infinite is the weakest way to win the game, but it's also a necessary evil against a deck like Soul Sisters that will live outside of your feasible burn range. So my version of the deck only really runs the bare minimum needed to go infinite. The twincasts (or reverberates) are just something I like to throw into decks like these because you never know when someone is going to be a sweetheart and Give you something to kill them with, it's also good for countering counterspells.
I typically don't show my decks as I don't like to "netdeck", but instead hybridizing them into something new (hence adding W). With that being said, my deck is not the typical Pyro deck... It looks something like:
4 Mountain
5 Island
3 Plain
4 Scalding Tairn
3 Arid Mesa
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Grixis Panorama
Enchantments 4
4 Pyromancer's Ascension
Plainswalkers 2
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Survival Cache
3 Earthquake
3 Call to Mind
3 Time Warp
Instants 11
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Regress
3 Rest for the Weary
4 Negate
3 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Path to Exile
4 Volcanic Fallout
So some explanation:
Rest for the weary. With no ascension, i gain 8 life on T2, usually putting me out of reach of RDW, and giving me a life cushion to run Survival Cache. Most games, I gain 15+ life. It has done wonders against Megrim and RDW.
Survival Cache. It gains life and draws cards. With Rebound. Amazing if one is in grave and you need to level an Ascension. It levels it on both cast and rebound. With Ascension online it gains and draws 2 or 3 or 4 times. Not good at all if you are less life than opponent. Again, that is why Rest for the Weary is also in the deck.
Regress. Bounces anything. I really enjoyed last night with 2 Ascensions online, bouncing every permanent my opponent had on the board with 2 regress and a call to mind (and 2 extra turns). I ran out of extra turns, but he was so far behind (not to mention his massive discard at end of turn) that he scooped. It also does wonders against big creatures/leveling/cards with counters that bolt type cards may not handle.
Earthquake. New to the deck. My hope is with the massive life gain this deck has that Earthquake can safely be deployed to wipe huge board positions. Also can be used as a finisher.
Grixis Panorama. An a bit slower Scalding Tairn. Why not use Evolving Wilds? Well this card can tap for colorless and there are times when I dont need another Island or Mountain.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant. It adds creatures to an otherwise creatureless deck (ignoring the 2 Colonnades). 1/1 Chump blockers are amazing. And if you can Timewarp, she will almost always make things indestructible. Also can pump the Colonnades to get around Jar Jar Sphinx. I tried both Jace 2.0 and Ajani V., but I end up with Elspeth as she can just stall the game until I infinite.
No MD counterspells. I couldnt find room for them, and honestly I dont mind too much if they counter my spells when an Ascension is in play as I still get the counter. Once Ascension (or two) is online, feel free to counter a spell of mine, I still get the copy[ies]
I will be using this deck tonight (TNM) and will post results tomorrow.
EDH:▼
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Playing: Designing:
Retired:
I like the thought of green as it could also play Naturalize. My biggest concern is running into Leyline of the Void. I can regress the enchantment, but I cannot remove it entirely. Has anyone else ran into a U/B mill with these Leylines? How do you deal with them? I have Negate SB, but that is not going to help if they open the game with one in play. I was thinking Demystify, but that is really narrow (only targets enchantments).
EDH:▼
(links to 3D generals)
Playing: Designing:
Retired:
W splash does work for example, but not with the cards you all are playing with. Elspeth? in a deck that is trying to charge up an enchantment by puting instants and sorceries in the yard? Rest for the Weary is on the right track
You shouldn't need board wipe...you shouldn't need creatures, etc...if you do, you are playing a control deck.
RWU should look something like this:
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Sejiri Refuge
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Mountain
22 Land
4 Burst Lightning
3 Call to Mind
1 Into the Roil
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
2 Negate
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Survival Cache
4 Time Warp
38 Spells
4 Baneslayer Angel
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Into the Roil
2 Negate
4 Kiln Fiend
Creatures and tricks come in after board when they gun for your ascensions. The beauty of this deck is that it keeps the opponent guessing and has the potential to just make your opponent's draws completely dead...
I swear, Wizards has done such a good job of screwing combo that people have forgotten how to play it...
/rant
There are reasons not to run these spells (AIDust destroying own Jace/AZone/Leyline), but in the meantime I'm winning FNMs.
So, my white is in there to stall past T5 and give me an alternative win condition. Frequently I find that I do not have an Ascension online by T5. Perhaps I am not mulliganing enough, or perhaps my ascensions clump up in the deck (ie not shuffling enough), but ponders/preordains are not always finding the ascensions.
Example: Bad luck last night as I managed to find 1 ascension in time within 3 rounds (by "in time" I imply that when they have me in single digit life with creatures in play, top decking an ascension is not really good.).
As for not having enough instants/sorceries, yes the Elspeth does reduce my board down by 2, but 34 spells over 32 only gives you an additional ~4% chance of drawing an instant/sorcery. When we are talking a ~59.6% vs 55.8% draw on T1 (assuming 3 spells in opening hand), I really dont feel that there is that much of an advantage.
So, all that being said, I am not really looking to start an argument. As mentioned in my earlier post, I am trying to verge off slightly from the "Standard Ascension Deck". Elspeth was a thought, though I am now leaning toward deeper drawing cards.
Side note: BSA/Kiln Fiend seem like interesting SB cards. They pull removal, you bring in creatures. It seems good against control, but what about creature heavy decks?
Also if I could ask, what is your typical SB choices to bring creatures in?
EDH:▼
(links to 3D generals)
Playing: Designing:
Retired:
We generally pwn aggro, you just have to play slowly and use your life total as a resource. Calculate the amount of potential damage your opponent can deal to you before you pass your next turn, which requires that you know their deck and plays they make (which you get from playtesting against a gauntlet of good Type 2 decks [ie Jund, Soul Sisters, Mythic]). Burn/Bounce stuff that matters and then go off...
The other problem is that you are relying on Ponder and Preordain only, with a little help from Survival Cache. I also play See Beyond and Foresee. You need all the dig you can get your dirty little hands on as there are no tutors for Ascension...This is where your consistency breaks down. Earthquake is no good, as you are often behind when you cast it and your life total is too precious to wipe the board just for them to repopulate again and have to deal less damage to you.
Try my build and see if your problems are at least mitigated.
I am not trying to argue either...I am just trying to help in my own annoyed, misanthropic way
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