I would agree that tapout is the way to go if UB wasn't so popular. That matchup was 50/50 at best and I feel that going tapout would significantly tilt the scales their way.
That aside, I think that Thrummingbird could be a major role-player in such a deck. Playing it on turn 2, followed up by a chalice for 1, could lead to 7+ mana on turn 4. What's to be done with that much mana is anyone's guess...
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Im not sure that white suns zenith is that good of a card... it can be negated, spell pierces, where other finishers (wurmcoil, BSA, sunblast, sun titan), cant. It can even get dispelled.
Omg, maybe I should stop playing planeswalkers, counterspells, preordains, day of judgment, etc. All those card can be disrupted by Spell pierce or Negate.
But hey, all the creatures you mentioned die to doomblade AND can be mana leaked, canceled/ stoi rebuttal. Does that make them awful?
I'm planning on trying a permission style of U/W, which unfortunately means dropping most of the planeswalkers (at least main-decked). I decided to pick up the counter/draw shell of the u/b list that made top 8 in SCG indy (after reading an article about the top 8 analysis on TCGplayer), which resulted in this:
The idea is to counter until you can safely determine that your opponent has run out of efficient resources. If there is nothing to counter, reload your hand with more cards at your opponent's end step (the blue player's dream come true :P).
I will admit that I have not had a chance to test this out yet, but I plan to bring this to FNM with a meta consisting of all the meta decks found in SCG Indy. If the counter/draw setup worked well for u/b in indy, maybe it will work similarly for u/w. I'm curious to see how it runs against fast aggro decks.
To those that are pro-tapout: Aren't damage boosters, like goblin bushwacker, the real threat of aggro decks (like Kuldotha Red)? I figure the tokens/early drops are not as deadly if it isn't backed up by such damage boosters, which we can easily counter once we get to 2-3 mana. It usually takes them 2-3 mana to increase their firepower (i.e. goblin bushwacker, goblin chieftain, or goblin wardriver), meaning their first turn token/memnite drop probably isn't as lethal as it should be. This is my biggest reason for considering a permission style u/w control.
I think the gameplan against the fast aggro decks is all about managing their damage output via counterspell/into the roil/condemn until you can safely land a DoJ/ratchet bomb/Gideon/Elspeth. What are your thoughts on this? What would be the advantages of playing tapout instead (maybe I'm missing something)?
Well, if we are talking about kuldotha red i think Oust is better then Into the Roil, especially when they go into topdeck mode.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I'm really liking the look of White Sun's Zenith so far. Granted I haven't tested yet but some kind of U / WW control looks like it could be good. 4x Hawks, 2x, WSZ and possibly 2x Elspeth. I think this would be great against aggro... get 4 hawks up early to combat their fast creatures until you take control, DoJ if things get out of hand. WSZ at the end of their turn, drop an elspeth and gain life to get out of burn range... I'm not sure, this deck is nothing more than an idea in my head so I'll have to throw it together to try at FNM this friday.
anyone considered leonin arbiter as an answer for green sun zenith?
tha'ts turn 2 + 2 more mana to the green sun, and it kinda kills them cuz now htey have to pay each turn even if they manage to get a primeval out. (assuming you have ways to protect this lil cat)
I really like the idea of Cryptoplasm with Sun Titan. Too bad there aren't any reliable ways to dump Cryptoplasms into the graveyard early. Sun Titan etb. Reanimates Cryptoplasm. Next turn, you have two Sun Titan's swinging...Mmm. We need something better than Enclave Cryptologist.
Of course...there aren't many other creatures in the deck worth copying...Still seems funny though.
I like WSZ as a one to two of in the deck. Instant speed cat army is awesome.
USZ seems worse than Jace's Ingenuity until late in the game.
Phyrexian Rebirth sucks. You probably won't get much more than a 2/2 or a 3/3 out of it, as you've likely swept once already with Day of Judgment or Ratchet Bomb.
That aside, I think that Thrummingbird could be a major role-player in such a deck. Playing it on turn 2, followed up by a chalice for 1, could lead to 7+ mana on turn 4. What's to be done with that much mana is anyone's guess...
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Omg, maybe I should stop playing planeswalkers, counterspells, preordains, day of judgment, etc. All those card can be disrupted by Spell pierce or Negate.
But hey, all the creatures you mentioned die to doomblade AND can be mana leaked, canceled/ stoi rebuttal. Does that make them awful?
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifacts (2)
2 Ratchet Bomb
Spells (29)
2 White Sun's Zenith
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Day of Judgment
3 Jace's Ingenuity
2 Cancel
2 Stoic Rebuttal
4 Mana Leak
3 Spell Pierce
3 Condemn
2 Into the Roil
4 Preordain
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Seachrome Coast
5 Island
5 Plains
4 Tectonic Edge
1 Negate
1 Deprive
2 Jace Beleren
2 Gideon Jura
2 Elspeth Tirel
3 Celestial Purge
2 Revoke Existence
2 Leyline of Sanctity
For reference: SCG Indy Top 8 U/B Control List
The idea is to counter until you can safely determine that your opponent has run out of efficient resources. If there is nothing to counter, reload your hand with more cards at your opponent's end step (the blue player's dream come true :P).
I will admit that I have not had a chance to test this out yet, but I plan to bring this to FNM with a meta consisting of all the meta decks found in SCG Indy. If the counter/draw setup worked well for u/b in indy, maybe it will work similarly for u/w. I'm curious to see how it runs against fast aggro decks.
To those that are pro-tapout: Aren't damage boosters, like goblin bushwacker, the real threat of aggro decks (like Kuldotha Red)? I figure the tokens/early drops are not as deadly if it isn't backed up by such damage boosters, which we can easily counter once we get to 2-3 mana. It usually takes them 2-3 mana to increase their firepower (i.e. goblin bushwacker, goblin chieftain, or goblin wardriver), meaning their first turn token/memnite drop probably isn't as lethal as it should be. This is my biggest reason for considering a permission style u/w control.
I think the gameplan against the fast aggro decks is all about managing their damage output via counterspell/into the roil/condemn until you can safely land a DoJ/ratchet bomb/Gideon/Elspeth. What are your thoughts on this? What would be the advantages of playing tapout instead (maybe I'm missing something)?
MTG Rules Advisor
Standard
UW UW Control
B MBC (developing)
Legacy
WUG Bant
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
tha'ts turn 2 + 2 more mana to the green sun, and it kinda kills them cuz now htey have to pay each turn even if they manage to get a primeval out. (assuming you have ways to protect this lil cat)
Of course...there aren't many other creatures in the deck worth copying...Still seems funny though.
I like WSZ as a one to two of in the deck. Instant speed cat army is awesome.
USZ seems worse than Jace's Ingenuity until late in the game.
Phyrexian Rebirth sucks. You probably won't get much more than a 2/2 or a 3/3 out of it, as you've likely swept once already with Day of Judgment or Ratchet Bomb.
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