Black Sun's Zenith vs Consume the Meek

  • #1
    Just wondering what people here thought. I mean, most will probably say that Black Sun's Zenith is better than Consume the Meek but lets look at what it does not do:

    It does NOT:

    Kill Boros creatures equipped with absurd amounts of equipment (which is mainly the deck that black sun's zenith would be useful against)

    and

    It does not come off at instant speed.

    Anybody else having issues deciding which sweeper to run?
    My Trade Thread

    Currently Playing
    EDH

    Originally posted by persistent pidgeon
    I'm going to force spike you in the butt
  • #2
    Well then lets look at what Black Sun's Zenith does do

    1. Provide Flexibility - can come down earlier to kill off smaller creatures or come down later to kill bigger creatures

    2. Recurrance - if it resolves it is shuffled into the deck, so it is reusable. As an added bonus it allow you to shuffle your deck for BB.

    3. Kills big "shroud" dudes - Sphinx of Jwar Isle and Thrun, the Last Troll are problems that would need attention and BSZ provides a solution. It kills things that Consume the Meek can't and gets around pesky regen of Thrun... It also gets around Indestructible...

    Overall BSZ is better, but for Game Day since I want my deck to be Mirran Alligned I'm opting for Consume the Meek
    Last edited by y2m2k2z1: 2/6/2011 10:14:23 PM
    Currently Playing:
    T2


    Commander
    WGCaptain SisayWG

    Quote from velict
    That was from the time Before Jace (or BJ, for short).
  • #3
    The fact that you're asking this question makes me want to take your deck. xP I mean, I hate to be a complete jerk, but dude, CtM is dead in the mirror whereas BSZ is not, in Valakut, same thing. (Even though Valakut makes you cry anyway) And against aggro, turn 4 and turn 5 is a huge difference, Dropping Zenith for 1 on turn 3 or 2 on 4 cripples most aggro/weenie builds, so, you tell me, Zenith, or consume? o.o

    PS: To the above poster, the second part of your sig, you can kinda make that possible with tez. o.o
    BUR Tezz ControlRUB


    Vanilla ice cream is like the unmodified main deck,
    And the toppings are the sideboard...sprinkle where appropriate.


    TehTrade thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=309447
  • #4
    You guys arent seeming to realize the abilities the CtM have. The instant speed is pretty awesome. You can cause a Boros played to overextend, which is once agian pretty cool, and BSZ also hurts your creatures that are above 3. You should really consider some of the options that CtM has.
    My Trade Thread

    Currently Playing
    EDH

    Originally posted by persistent pidgeon
    I'm going to force spike you in the butt
  • #5
    Quote from Elyxr
    You guys arent seeming to realize the abilities the CtM have. The instant speed is pretty awesome. You can cause a Boros played to overextend, which is once agian pretty cool, and BSZ also hurts your creatures that are above 3. You should really consider some of the options that CtM has.


    Agree wholeheartedly. BSZ is indeed versatile and answers far more threats sooner than CtM. But the instant speed of CtM is a permission player's best friend. I'd keep a CtM in the side at the very least.
    "In a culture of beauty, the most beautiful are worshipped as gods."

    Modern

    Melira Pod
    Kiki Pod

    Legacy

    UWR/RUG/BUG Delver
    Shardless BUG
    Elves
  • #6
    Quote from Elyxr
    You guys arent seeming to realize the abilities the CtM have. The instant speed is pretty awesome. You can cause a Boros played to overextend, which is once agian pretty cool, and BSZ also hurts your creatures that are above 3. You should really consider some of the options that CtM has.


    Instant speed is nice but a GOOD agro player never over extends... Plus it is UB control, what creatures? They don't come out till at least turn 6.

    We all played CtM way before BSZ came out so we know its pros and cons and trust me the flexibility that BSZ allows is worth much more than instant speed, which only really matters in a permission based deck... Even at that Im still considering BSZ because of big creatures with shroud...

    You forget that our biggest weakness are creatures that can't be countered and killed E.g. Thrun and Gaea's Revenge... BSZ deals with them, CtM can't
    Currently Playing:
    T2


    Commander
    WGCaptain SisayWG

    Quote from velict
    That was from the time Before Jace (or BJ, for short).
  • #7
    Another weakness of a permission based deck are aggro decks, because often their creatures come out sooner than we can counter them efficiently..and cards like Kuldotha rebirth make spot removal seem a little silly. BSZ can deal with that sooner (turn 3 vs turn 5). Often turn 5 is too late. Is it worth keeping in the SB as a 1 of at the most? Sure. Is it worth using it MD over BSZ? No way.

    As other people said, it can deal with Thrun..it can deal with Gaea's Revenge (though hopefully it doesn't have too)...it deals with indestructible creatures, it deals with artifact decks that try to abuse etched champion, etc. You can cast it to, at the very least, add -1 -1 counters to creatures that you can't kill to save some life. It still gets around regeneration.

    I love instants just as much as everyone else...but BSZ is just better 90% of the time.
    Last edited by Melkor1010: 2/7/2011 2:25:17 AM
    Originally posted by Deimosfobos
    BTW... what a silly question, I guess I should go to Ux control forum and ask: How come Mana Leak has a place in Ux control?
  • #8
    I'm loving it since the announcement my meta is filled with aggro elves and turbogoblins so the chance to cripple their turn 3 and 4 i grab with both hands. Sure te instant speed can be awesome but only against the less experienced players who overextend. Turn 3 -1/-1 agains kuldutha red is GG from than on imo and the fact that i can kill anything especially in the mirror makes me a happy panda Smile
    Level 1 Judge


    Find me on cockatrice:
    username:Keesie

    Currently Playing:

    Standard:
    UwR Burn baby Burn
    Gruul aggro won me the ptq Smile

    Modern:
    Hatebears
    Esper walkers

    Legacy:
    Maverick/death and taxes
  • #9
    I play permission so naturally Ctm is a better fit. Being able to sweep man-lands, overrun elves, pumped boros and luring your opponent into a false sense of security are just great. That being said, I only sideboard 2 consume the meek. I will be running 1 black sun's zenith main due to the fact it can drop earlier and I can fetch it at least 2 times on avg before liliana dies. They are both good in their own right and I'll have a split of 2/2 in my 75.
  • #10
    Black Sun is so much better against elves and goblins incomparison to CtM. These are the main two reasons I run it instead of CtM. I have lost many games against elves because they get to play a Monument before I had 5 mana for CtM. Sure thats what counters are for but when they are dropping things like Elvish Archdruid, Renegade dude, or even Vengevine. It's hard to hold a counter when you taking a beating every turn. Also CtM doesn't touch Vengvine, or anything once the Monument hits. BSZ can still clear them out.
    I think this forum would be strictly better if people would stop trying to force the word strictly into discussions.
  • #11
    Consume the Meek is a bad card. Let's just clear that up. Black Sun's Zenith is not. It's way more versatile, and because it uses counters, it actually bypasses Indestructible things (like Elves covered by Eldrazi Monument).


    Standard:
    :symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:

    Commander:
    :symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:

    Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
  • #12
    Coma couldn't have put it more bluntly! If you'd have asked before BSZ was born I'da said otherwise. CtM is being replaced by Ratchet Bomb along side BSZ.
    Quote from Knyght
    Just my opinion, but I tried to Revoke a Pyroclasm, so maybe today's just not my day!

    Quote from Deimosfobos
    Who can argue that sound logic...
    Me>You
    Coke>Pepsi
    Messi>Ronaldo


    Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
  • #13
    Black Sun is better. If you want access to more than four sweepers after boarding, I think CtM vs Ratchet (vs. Massacre Wurm?) is a legitimate debate.
  • #14
    I'm not sure ratchet bomb should be in this discussion, its not nearly as good as ctm or bsz as a board sweeper IMHO. Its very slow to get going and unless you're getting it past 3, its not as good as ctm. I usually side in my board sweepers against stuff like vamps, elves, gobos, etc. (as do most people) and in all those cases, its rare i'm going to want a bomb past 3 anyway. And if thats the case, then I want ctm end of discussion. I normally like the bomb for taking out noncreature permanents (like luminarch, vat, etc.) which it does quite well at. I would consider siding the bombs in an effort to use them as a two for one in that sense (side them in the aggro matchups and if I need it to take care of some nasty noncreature permanent.)

    In the pure ctm vs. bsz matchup however, I prefer ctm as a permission player. The instant speed is key for a permission player. I'm going to be testing bsz, probably as a sibeboard card, anyway but it won't make a main deck spot in a permission list I don't think. It is a very good card however, its just the lack of instant speed that leans me toward ctm.


    Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane for this sig

    Currently Playing:

    Standard:
    :symr::symu::symg::symw::symb: 5C Omni-Door :symr::symu::symg::symw::symb:


    EDH
    5 mana Karn, Silver Golem 5 mana
    blue mana Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir blue mana
    :symb::symr::symw: Kaalia of the Vast :symb::symr::symw:


  • #15
    Quote from bloodredrevolt
    I'm not sure ratchet bomb should be in this discussion, its not nearly as good as ctm or bsz as a board sweeper IMHO. Its very slow to get going and unless you're getting it past 3, its not as good as ctm. I usually side in my board sweepers against stuff like vamps, elves, gobos, etc. (as do most people) and in all those cases, its rare i'm going to want a bomb past 3 anyway. And if thats the case, then I want ctm end of discussion. I normally like the bomb for taking out noncreature permanents (like luminarch, vat, etc.) which it does quite well at. I would consider siding the bombs in an effort to use them as a two for one in that sense (side them in the aggro matchups and if I need it to take care of some nasty noncreature permanent.)

    In the pure ctm vs. bsz matchup however, I prefer ctm as a permission player. The instant speed is key for a permission player. I'm going to be testing bsz, probably as a sibeboard card, anyway but it won't make a main deck spot in a permission list I don't think. It is a very good card however, its just the lack of instant speed that leans me toward ctm.




    What do you do against Kuldotha Red then? Without BSZ and Ratchet Bomb you auto lose. Same with Vampires. Dedication to instants
    Quote from Acardus
    ... It's a build but not really a threat to me.
  • #16
    Quote from bloodredrevolt
    I'm not sure ratchet bomb should be in this discussion, its not nearly as good as ctm or bsz as a board sweeper IMHO. Its very slow to get going and unless you're getting it past 3, its not as good as ctm. I usually side in my board sweepers against stuff like vamps, elves, gobos, etc. (as do most people) and in all those cases, its rare i'm going to want a bomb past 3 anyway. And if thats the case, then I want ctm end of discussion. I normally like the bomb for taking out noncreature permanents (like luminarch, vat, etc.) which it does quite well at. I would consider siding the bombs in an effort to use them as a two for one in that sense (side them in the aggro matchups and if I need it to take care of some nasty noncreature permanent.)

    In the pure ctm vs. bsz matchup however, I prefer ctm as a permission player. The instant speed is key for a permission player. I'm going to be testing bsz, probably as a sibeboard card, anyway but it won't make a main deck spot in a permission list I don't think. It is a very good card however, its just the lack of instant speed that leans me toward ctm.


    Yeah, I'm also playing permission with two BSZ in the main and another 2 in the board. Those goblins can be so fast its crazy! Plus our counters are all but useless against them.

    I feel staying alive is also key, that means killing those goblins ASAP!

    Currently playing:
    T2:
    UBPermissionUB
    GFauna ElvesG
  • #17
    I think the Zenith is new-card-syndrome.

    Just wait, in a month there will be some article from SCG/CF about why Consume the Meek was the better option all along.

    I've killed enough 7/7 plated geopedes, 4/4 memnites, etc, to appreciate the mass-smother effect of consume the meek over BSZ.

    --

    Edit: I also like passing turn with the option of consume or countering something. Nothing like a premature BSZ against a good Kred player, and then they untap and play a goblin guide.
    Last edited by Promatim: 2/8/2011 10:47:06 AM
    I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
  • #18
    Hence why Bomb is better in that regard. Destroying tokens for 2 mana is cool! Consume the meek is alright facing elves and Vamps but right now I think Bomb is better. Goobs are just too quick and CtM is a too slow but yeah, there are a handle full good removal spells at our disposal.
    Quote from Knyght
    Just my opinion, but I tried to Revoke a Pyroclasm, so maybe today's just not my day!

    Quote from Deimosfobos
    Who can argue that sound logic...
    Me>You
    Coke>Pepsi
    Messi>Ronaldo


    Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
  • #19
    Quote from Promatim
    I think the Zenith is new-card-syndrome.

    Just wait, in a month there will be some article from SCG/CF about why Consume the Meek was the better option all along.

    I've killed enough 7/7 plated geopedes, 4/4 memnites, etc, to appreciate the mass-smother effect of consume the meek over BSZ.

    --

    Edit: I also like passing turn with the option of consume or countering something. Nothing like a premature BSZ against a good Kred player, and then they untap and play a goblin guide.


    CtM is too slow of an answer against good aggro decks. Either your already dead by turn 5 or your in bolt range. Good luck trying to stop Mr. Trollface from wrecking your day with CtM.
    I think this forum would be strictly better if people would stop trying to force the word strictly into discussions.
  • #20
    BOmb is the only way to have a chance against a decent goblin hand. Period.
  • #21
    Hmmm well the deck is really nonexistent in my meta thus far (believe it or not). But I see your point and can agree with that.

    That being said though, what number of each would you run in your 75? I have been running 1 ctm in MD and 2 in SB to this point with one ratchet bomb in the SB as well. But if aggro is going to start taking over metas then I will probably need to dedicate more than 1 slot in the MD to board wipe where 1 slot has been effective until now. Thoughts from your experience and others?


    Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane for this sig

    Currently Playing:

    Standard:
    :symr::symu::symg::symw::symb: 5C Omni-Door :symr::symu::symg::symw::symb:


    EDH
    5 mana Karn, Silver Golem 5 mana
    blue mana Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir blue mana
    :symb::symr::symw: Kaalia of the Vast :symb::symr::symw:


  • #22
    Quote from Coma White
    Consume the Meek is a bad card. Let's just clear that up. Black Sun's Zenith is not. It's way more versatile, and because it uses counters, it actually bypasses Indestructible things (like Elves covered by Eldrazi Monument).


    But but.. 5-mana Pyroclasms are great right!?

    Seriously, I don't think anyone could have put it more bluntly and clearly. You can kill just as much, but faster, with the Zenith. Consume always has been a bad option and it's only saving grace was it's instant speed.
    Quote from Patrick Chapin on SCG »
    Magic is a game full of bright people — and all too often bright young men who are used to always being the smartest guy in the room find themselves surrounded by a room full of intelligence and lose their cool.


    Quote from Shmanka
    It's not good, its just the king of a sandbox. Congrats, go make a castle.
  • #23
    Kuldotha red needs to be answered by bombs, or black sun zeniths. I think CTM fails there.
  • #24
    This is really a no-contest with Black Sun's Zenith being the clear winner.

    In the match ups that it really shines, there never really is a point where you thinking to yourself, "Damn I really should leave mana open just in case he tries to play a goblin bushwhacker."

    Tapping out on turn 3 for a Black Sun's Zenith for 1 has won me every game that I needed to do it in, and that option is not available with Consume the Meek. By turn 5 when you can cast it your life is so low and your options so slim that you'll have already forfeited the game unless your hand was just stocked to the brim with Go for the Throat, Doom Blade AND Disfigure. With just 1 Black Sun's Zenith in hand, you'll stall your opponent so badly that they will be nearly incapable of coming back into the game the second you clear the board.

    The best part about Black Sun's Zenith is that it does everything that Consume the Meek does, better, faster and has more reach then Consume the Meek ever will have.

    I challenge you to find one situation where a Consume the Meek is better then a Black Sun's Zenith for 2. Now find a situation where Consume the Meek is better then a Black Sun's Zenith for 1. *Hint: You will not find it*
  • #25
    CtM can kill manlands too. I think the only reason id play zenith is because it shuffles up your bad cards with jace out. Which is why I have decided to play zenith.
    My Trade Thread

    Currently Playing
    EDH

    Originally posted by persistent pidgeon
    I'm going to force spike you in the butt
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes