I say this much the same as others said about Goyf an Jitte. However Jace has made it to a point where blue is in almost every deck and if it isn't frankly the deck isn't that good.
People can give me all the data they like to support the opposite of this fact. really I would like a solid reason not to play Goblin Guide and any fast critter in the format just to kill Jace.
I know Thrun was made to help with this issue, but it fails terribly when you give Jace a new teammate in Black Sun's Zenith.
An unchecked Jace will lock you out in 2 turns. You might get the Turn he comes into play, if you have board position or hasty beats coming online.
I challenge you to name a better 4cc card ever printed. I do mean ever. Think about a card you would rather play at 4cc that does what this card does. I would say don't waste your time but I would really like someone to try and troll this post or come up with a witty flame that can stand up to this one undeniable truth.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
At least it takes capability to play JTMS based decks?
Valakut was already laughably easy to play, and now picked up Green Sun's Zenith. Valakut also has a higher margin of opening hands that are likely to 'just win', also.
the day i see Valakut playing JtmS is the day ill say hes overpowered, until then ill just stick to the theory of what one of my friends said that jaces other name is unsummonunsummonunsummon
Last top at of the SCG open had 24 copies of jace in the top 8. Thats out of 32 possible slots.
I suppose Survival was ok too? Skullclamp not so bad?
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I feel Jace ruins the rest of the blue cards in standard more than it ruins standard. Any time one looks at a blue card in standard, it immediately fails the "would I play this or Jace" test.
If you're going to use blue mana, you can't spend it better than to cast Jace. But it's not quite unbeatable.
Last top at of the SCG open had 24 copies of jace in the top 8. Thats out of 32 possible slots.
I suppose Survival was ok too? Skullclamp not so bad?
I'm going to assume you missed the original Mirrodin block, Kamigawa, or Lorwyn. Because each of those meta-games featured cards that would go on to not only "ruin" 2 years worth of MtG, but also dominate Legacy formats for years afterward (to the point of straight up banning), something Jace has not done.
Jace is a role-player, and a lot of decks would rather not see him in their starting 7.
He may be the best PW in existence but he is surprisingly balanced for his power level.
jace is the only thing that holds blue together, counters arnt strong enough and the draw spells arnt good enough to play blue without him.
the same could be said about the green titan. valakut was tier 2 deck before he came around.
honestly i think a better challenge would have been just to mention a card that warps the format worse than jace, because cards at 4 cc in the past have been terribly bad.
but if i had to put a 4 cc card against jace id say BBE. she created advantage was a win con, and pretty much held jund together
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My Decks that have been BANNED
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Jace really isn't as much of a problem as lead to believe, as it all depends on what deck you run. There is a huge flow chart of what deck beats what, and Jace just beats quite a few of the current ones, however, an elf deck could destroy Jace in a relatively quick manner.
I'd start complaining about Glissa, because with that cost, I can see her becoming a major holy hell, we are doomed.
The key is also having a deck archetype to fit into. Jace survives now largely because of man lands and Mana Leak. Creeping Tarpit, Grave/Frost Titan, and Wurmcoil Engine are the reasons UB control functions today, Jace is just a piece of that machine. Before that it was Spreading Seas, Celestial Colonnade, and Baneslayer Angel that made UW tick.
I'm going to assume you missed the original Mirrodin block, Kamigawa, or Lorwyn. Because each of those meta-games featured cards that would go on to not only "ruin" 2 years worth of MtG, but also dominate Legacy formats for years afterward (to the point of straight up banning), something Jace has not done.
Jace is a role-player, and a lot of decks would rather not see him in their starting 7.
He may be the best PW in existence but he is surprisingly balanced for his power level.
Nice assumption but no I did not. I have never missed a set of magic. The current format is basically the same as Legacy was earlier in the year. Survival by itself does nothing, coupled with VV and madness guys it gets scary quick.
I am simply pointing out that Jace, much like Jitte, is a card that everyone is trying to play. I think he is a fine card for other formats but overpowered in type 2. It does take a bit of skill to play a Jace mind you but that doesn't make him any worse.
If I am so far off about his power then why is going for $100? Why is it that you can't find boxes of Worldwake anywhere?
I didn't post an opinion I posted a fact. Go look at the numbers instead of giving your opinions. For as long as this standard has been legal Jace has warped the format. Even better take Jace out of the decks he is in and see how well you do versus the decks that have him.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Jace broke into my home, slapped me in the mouth, and made out with my grandma, Shooter McGavin-style.
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"Well, well, if it isn't the most diabolical haters this side of the Mississippi." Alters and Commissions at [URL="noodlesndoodlesalters.tumblr.com/"]Noodles & Doodles Alters[/URL]!
Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
jace is the only thing that holds blue together, counters arnt strong enough and the draw spells arnt good enough to play blue without him.
the same could be said about the green titan. valakut was tier 2 deck before he came around.
honestly i think a better challenge would have been just to mention a card that warps the format worse than jace, because cards at 4 cc in the past have been terribly bad.
but if i had to put a 4 cc card against jace id say BBE. she created advantage was a win con, and pretty much held jund together
I agree.
Its the glue that holds blue and makes blue playable and competitive.
I don't think its as meta-warping as lets say, Skull Clamp.
This can be placed in all sorts of decks. It doesn't matter what the deck was made of or what it was supposed to do, you can just slap it on and make it work. Elves, Affinity, Soldiers, knights, Goblins, Hell, even Merfolks can just slap it on and take advantage of it.
The same cannot be said about JTMS.
He can only work in Blue or atleast splashed with blue. He works best in control decks and doesn't see play in Agro builds at all.
When I was reading the reason why Skull Clamp was banned, it dictated that one of the reasons for a card to be banned was that it made the meta split into two kinds of decks: One that abuses the card and another that is designed solely to counter-act it.
JTMS sure is meta-shaping, yes. But I don't believe its AS meta shaping to be called "Ruining Type 2"
Sure, its way too prominent right now, but after it cycles out, it won't be that prominent, I guess.
The problem isn't that Jace is too powerful - it's that, for the most part, other Planeswalkers suck compared to him (except for maybe Gideon).
Also, complaining about Jace is like complaining about Baneslayer from last standard season. And the Jitte is colorless, so everyone could play it. Jace is restrictive to a color that, except for him, doesn't have a terrible amount of love right now (save Mana Leak and Volition Reigns, maybe).
Jace is a great card. If you took him out of Standard the same decks would exist. There'd be some flex, but Jace isn't what makes U/B good. U/B is good because it has the best removal and the best permission spells at the moment, period.
If you want proof that Jace isn't the end all, be all of deck formulation, look at the differences between last standard and new standard: U/W control barely exists any more. Why? Jace is still there. No, Elspeth rotated out. That's what happened.
If you don't like Jace, play a B/R control deck with Phyrexian Revokers, Vampire Hexmages, and burn. Or something. Just don't complain about it.
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I say this much the same as others said about Goyf an Jitte. However Jace has made it to a point where blue is in almost every deck and if it isn't frankly the deck isn't that good.
People can give me all the data they like to support the opposite of this fact. really I would like a solid reason not to play Goblin Guide and any fast critter in the format just to kill Jace.
I know Thrun was made to help with this issue, but it fails terribly when you give Jace a new teammate in Black Sun's Zenith.
An unchecked Jace will lock you out in 2 turns. You might get the Turn he comes into play, if you have board position or hasty beats coming online.
I challenge you to name a better 4cc card ever printed. I do mean ever. Think about a card you would rather play at 4cc that does what this card does. I would say don't waste your time but I would really like someone to try and troll this post or come up with a witty flame that can stand up to this one undeniable truth.
Couple of things:
-Jace has not in fact warped the format since his printing. INteresting fact (since you're into facts): most pros were very lukewarm about Jace when he was first printed. This was largely due to another oft-maligned 4-drop known as Bloodbraid Elf. This, coupled with Blightning, Bolt, Pulse, etc. kept Jace from ruling the roost.
-That said, yes, Jace is format-defining. But what does one do with all of these "facts?" Sure, he shows up a lot but he isn't affinity or Survival or Skullclamp. There are a lot of ways to deal with Jace. Yes, losing Pulse and ORing made Jace a little better and, frankly, though I own 4 Jaces, I don't like playing him or against him. But it's Standard; things will change. Hell, they'll change in four days.
-So . . .Jace plus Black SUn's Zenith nerfs Thrun? I'm not saying Thrun is broken but don't you need, like, six mana to kill Thrun with Zenith? And that's your reason for writing off Thrun? And, anyway, Thrun shuts off Jace's Unsummon ability, which isn't that significant to Jace's awesomeness. If the Angry Troll could counter his Brainstorm, he would stand out as an anti-Jace card.
-Also, what is the "opposite side of a fact?" Your implication is that thosethat disagree with you don't posess the "facts" and thus cannot be right. Bad rhetoric.
-Unlike former boogeyman decks/cards, Jace is easy enough to deal with without having to make your deck to beat him. Br Vamps,as much as I don't like it, creams Jace decks. Your mentioned Goblin Guide is kind of good, too.
-Moving forward, Jace may or may not fall from his position atop the metagame; my question is, Why do people complain so much about Standard when it changes so frequently and when it's the potential to "break" stuff that makes it such an exciting format?
Complaining about Jace may be "old hat," but I'll throw my voice into the ring as well. Jace is overpowered and stifles deck variety.
The last 2 standard tournaments on StarCityGames:
1st: R/U/G Control (4 Jace)
2nd: R/U/G Control (4 Jace)
3rd: U/W Control (4 Jace)
4th: Elves!
5th: U/W Control (4 Jace)
6th: R/U/G Control (4 Jace)
7th: Red Deck Wins
8th: R/U/G Control (4 Jace)
9th: U/W Control (4 Jace)
10th: R/U/G Control (4 Jace)
So out of 20 decks, 12 are running 4x Jace, and one is running 2x. 13 decks use Jace as an integral part of their strategy. That's not quite Bitterblossom-level broken, but Jace also costs twice as much as Bitterblossom ever did, and Jace obviously fits in numerous deck archetypes.
You may be thinking, "But EnderKR, didn't you just say he stifles deck variety?" And I sure did say that. Because those numbers show that if you're not running Jace, you are automatically reducing your shot at the top 8 by about 60%. By the mere fact that you are NOT running the best blue planeswalker ever, you reduce your chances of getting into a top 8 dramatically; and those decks that DO hit the Top 8 without Jace in their 75 are pure aggro. You want to win? You play Jace.
I imagine the other top tournament results, that I am conveniently too lazy to check (but don't need to), have similar numbers behind them. Jace is simply overpowered. At four mana and four abilities, he outshines any other possible 4 drop, and most 5 drops that you can play in his place. The common line is, "this deck would be better with Jace." And then if you run Jace, you might as well run Mana Leak and Spell Pierce, as everyone says.
Bloodbraid Elf made Jund a card-advantage machine, but at least it was only run in Jund and Naya. Jace is run in more than half the decks that Top 8, and I'm sort of sick of dealing with him.
And to the poster saying midrange decks (with Vengevine and, presumably, Thrun) stop Jace cold; I strongly disagree. If they did, clearly, we would see more decks with Vengevine in the Top 8s, and we don't. A single hastey dude, no matter how big his power, does not immediately render Jace manageable, because Jace is backed up by countermagic and removal.
Notice I did not say GREAT countermagic or GREAT removal. He's played with Condemn (lifegain), Journey to Nowhere(temporary), and Consume the Meek (conditional), along with good spells like Doom Blade or Day of Judgment. He's backed up by mediocre countermagic like Spell Pierce and CANCEL for the love of God, as well as great counterspells like Mana Leak. Those spells alone may or may not be enough to win you the game, but with Jace out it honestly barely matters what other spells you play because he's unbelievably broken.
Bounce your biggest threat. Fateseal you to removal potential problems. Brainstorm to draw into MY biggest threat. And an ultimate that unequivocally wins the game. All of these for zero mana; he truly is the best planeswalker printed.
At this point there's no reason to ban him; nothing new will come out that makes Jace more degenerate and less skill-intensive than he already is. But for the love of god, that card needs to never be reprinted ever again.
And some people think Valakut is format defining?? Seriously? When every color has access to Tectonic Edge without harming their manabase, and (obviously) most of the decks in the Top 8 are decks running Jace and counterspells to put an early stop to Titan tricks? Valakut is a joke where I play.
Jitte and Skullclamp went into EVERY deck because those decks revolved around creatures and are colourless equipment.
There's a plenty of decks in standard right now that don't play Jace and show decent standings. (ww, boros, valakut)
I'm just getting back into standard but I see more of a problem with the Titans than Jace. If you play blue don't you also play Mana Leak, Preordain and the like? If people add blue to their deck just for 4 Jaces, that's when I would think Wizards/DCI would become concerned.
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Decks:
Standard: UWB Control
Modern: UWR Midrange/Control UW Control
EDH: BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher G Omnath, Locus of Mana BUG The Mimeoplasm
Jace is just the latest in a proud tradition of wizzards to create rare cards indispensable for tournament play, he alone was the reason a whole set sold out so don't expect stuff like him to stop soon. rejoice in the fact that standard will rotate him out so we can obsess over the next 50$ set of mythic rares coming to std.
If you take Jace out of standard, then there would be something else to complain about. Just stop whining and deal with it yourself. If you really cared that much, you would just quit MTG, but instead you are wasting everyone's time by saying how bad and "unfun" standard is. Quit it....just quit it.
Skullclamp cannot really be considered a best for it was banned upon release. I think the best card/most broken card on that list has to be Bloodbraid Elf. That card was too busted.
People can give me all the data they like to support the opposite of this fact. really I would like a solid reason not to play Goblin Guide and any fast critter in the format just to kill Jace.
I know Thrun was made to help with this issue, but it fails terribly when you give Jace a new teammate in Black Sun's Zenith.
An unchecked Jace will lock you out in 2 turns. You might get the Turn he comes into play, if you have board position or hasty beats coming online.
I challenge you to name a better 4cc card ever printed. I do mean ever. Think about a card you would rather play at 4cc that does what this card does. I would say don't waste your time but I would really like someone to try and troll this post or come up with a witty flame that can stand up to this one undeniable truth.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
:symrw::symrw: Titan Mimic (tec)
Valakut was already laughably easy to play, and now picked up Green Sun's Zenith. Valakut also has a higher margin of opening hands that are likely to 'just win', also.
Last top at of the SCG open had 24 copies of jace in the top 8. Thats out of 32 possible slots.
I suppose Survival was ok too? Skullclamp not so bad?
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
If you're going to use blue mana, you can't spend it better than to cast Jace. But it's not quite unbeatable.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
I'm going to assume you missed the original Mirrodin block, Kamigawa, or Lorwyn. Because each of those meta-games featured cards that would go on to not only "ruin" 2 years worth of MtG, but also dominate Legacy formats for years afterward (to the point of straight up banning), something Jace has not done.
Jace is a role-player, and a lot of decks would rather not see him in their starting 7.
He may be the best PW in existence but he is surprisingly balanced for his power level.
:symrw::symrw: Titan Mimic (tec)
the same could be said about the green titan. valakut was tier 2 deck before he came around.
honestly i think a better challenge would have been just to mention a card that warps the format worse than jace, because cards at 4 cc in the past have been terribly bad.
but if i had to put a 4 cc card against jace id say BBE. she created advantage was a win con, and pretty much held jund together
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My Decks that have been BANNED
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I'd start complaining about Glissa, because with that cost, I can see her becoming a major holy hell, we are doomed.
Ironically, Jace is his own worst enemy (Jace Beleren, 3CC - destroy Target Jace, the Mind Scultpor).
:symrw::symrw: Titan Mimic (tec)
Nice assumption but no I did not. I have never missed a set of magic. The current format is basically the same as Legacy was earlier in the year. Survival by itself does nothing, coupled with VV and madness guys it gets scary quick.
I am simply pointing out that Jace, much like Jitte, is a card that everyone is trying to play. I think he is a fine card for other formats but overpowered in type 2. It does take a bit of skill to play a Jace mind you but that doesn't make him any worse.
If I am so far off about his power then why is going for $100? Why is it that you can't find boxes of Worldwake anywhere?
I didn't post an opinion I posted a fact. Go look at the numbers instead of giving your opinions. For as long as this standard has been legal Jace has warped the format. Even better take Jace out of the decks he is in and see how well you do versus the decks that have him.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
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"Well, well, if it isn't the most diabolical haters this side of the Mississippi."
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I agree.
Its the glue that holds blue and makes blue playable and competitive.
I don't think its as meta-warping as lets say, Skull Clamp.
This can be placed in all sorts of decks. It doesn't matter what the deck was made of or what it was supposed to do, you can just slap it on and make it work. Elves, Affinity, Soldiers, knights, Goblins, Hell, even Merfolks can just slap it on and take advantage of it.
The same cannot be said about JTMS.
He can only work in Blue or atleast splashed with blue. He works best in control decks and doesn't see play in Agro builds at all.
When I was reading the reason why Skull Clamp was banned, it dictated that one of the reasons for a card to be banned was that it made the meta split into two kinds of decks: One that abuses the card and another that is designed solely to counter-act it.
JTMS sure is meta-shaping, yes. But I don't believe its AS meta shaping to be called "Ruining Type 2"
Sure, its way too prominent right now, but after it cycles out, it won't be that prominent, I guess.
just an opinion.
Also, complaining about Jace is like complaining about Baneslayer from last standard season. And the Jitte is colorless, so everyone could play it. Jace is restrictive to a color that, except for him, doesn't have a terrible amount of love right now (save Mana Leak and Volition Reigns, maybe).
Jace is a great card. If you took him out of Standard the same decks would exist. There'd be some flex, but Jace isn't what makes U/B good. U/B is good because it has the best removal and the best permission spells at the moment, period.
If you want proof that Jace isn't the end all, be all of deck formulation, look at the differences between last standard and new standard: U/W control barely exists any more. Why? Jace is still there. No, Elspeth rotated out. That's what happened.
If you don't like Jace, play a B/R control deck with Phyrexian Revokers, Vampire Hexmages, and burn. Or something. Just don't complain about it.
Thanks to arête and Heroes of the Plane Studios for the Signature and Avatar!
Couple of things:
-Jace has not in fact warped the format since his printing. INteresting fact (since you're into facts): most pros were very lukewarm about Jace when he was first printed. This was largely due to another oft-maligned 4-drop known as Bloodbraid Elf. This, coupled with Blightning, Bolt, Pulse, etc. kept Jace from ruling the roost.
-That said, yes, Jace is format-defining. But what does one do with all of these "facts?" Sure, he shows up a lot but he isn't affinity or Survival or Skullclamp. There are a lot of ways to deal with Jace. Yes, losing Pulse and ORing made Jace a little better and, frankly, though I own 4 Jaces, I don't like playing him or against him. But it's Standard; things will change. Hell, they'll change in four days.
-So . . .Jace plus Black SUn's Zenith nerfs Thrun? I'm not saying Thrun is broken but don't you need, like, six mana to kill Thrun with Zenith? And that's your reason for writing off Thrun? And, anyway, Thrun shuts off Jace's Unsummon ability, which isn't that significant to Jace's awesomeness. If the Angry Troll could counter his Brainstorm, he would stand out as an anti-Jace card.
-Also, what is the "opposite side of a fact?" Your implication is that thosethat disagree with you don't posess the "facts" and thus cannot be right. Bad rhetoric.
-Unlike former boogeyman decks/cards, Jace is easy enough to deal with without having to make your deck to beat him. Br Vamps,as much as I don't like it, creams Jace decks. Your mentioned Goblin Guide is kind of good, too.
-Moving forward, Jace may or may not fall from his position atop the metagame; my question is, Why do people complain so much about Standard when it changes so frequently and when it's the potential to "break" stuff that makes it such an exciting format?
The last 2 standard tournaments on StarCityGames:
1st: R/U/G Control (4 Jace)
2nd: R/U/G Control (4 Jace)
3rd: U/W Control (4 Jace)
4th: Elves!
5th: U/W Control (4 Jace)
6th: R/U/G Control (4 Jace)
7th: Red Deck Wins
8th: R/U/G Control (4 Jace)
9th: U/W Control (4 Jace)
10th: R/U/G Control (4 Jace)
1st: Boros Deck Wins
2nd: U/G Genesis Wave (4 Jace)
3rd: U/B Control (4 Jace)
4th: B/R Vampires
5th: Vampires
6th: Bant Control (4 Jace)
7th: U/G Genesis Wave (4 Jace)
8th: Valakut Ramp
9th: Pyromancer Ascension (2 Jace)
10th: B/R Vampires
So out of 20 decks, 12 are running 4x Jace, and one is running 2x. 13 decks use Jace as an integral part of their strategy. That's not quite Bitterblossom-level broken, but Jace also costs twice as much as Bitterblossom ever did, and Jace obviously fits in numerous deck archetypes.
You may be thinking, "But EnderKR, didn't you just say he stifles deck variety?" And I sure did say that. Because those numbers show that if you're not running Jace, you are automatically reducing your shot at the top 8 by about 60%. By the mere fact that you are NOT running the best blue planeswalker ever, you reduce your chances of getting into a top 8 dramatically; and those decks that DO hit the Top 8 without Jace in their 75 are pure aggro. You want to win? You play Jace.
I imagine the other top tournament results, that I am conveniently too lazy to check (but don't need to), have similar numbers behind them. Jace is simply overpowered. At four mana and four abilities, he outshines any other possible 4 drop, and most 5 drops that you can play in his place. The common line is, "this deck would be better with Jace." And then if you run Jace, you might as well run Mana Leak and Spell Pierce, as everyone says.
Bloodbraid Elf made Jund a card-advantage machine, but at least it was only run in Jund and Naya. Jace is run in more than half the decks that Top 8, and I'm sort of sick of dealing with him.
And to the poster saying midrange decks (with Vengevine and, presumably, Thrun) stop Jace cold; I strongly disagree. If they did, clearly, we would see more decks with Vengevine in the Top 8s, and we don't. A single hastey dude, no matter how big his power, does not immediately render Jace manageable, because Jace is backed up by countermagic and removal.
Notice I did not say GREAT countermagic or GREAT removal. He's played with Condemn (lifegain), Journey to Nowhere(temporary), and Consume the Meek (conditional), along with good spells like Doom Blade or Day of Judgment. He's backed up by mediocre countermagic like Spell Pierce and CANCEL for the love of God, as well as great counterspells like Mana Leak. Those spells alone may or may not be enough to win you the game, but with Jace out it honestly barely matters what other spells you play because he's unbelievably broken.
Bounce your biggest threat. Fateseal you to removal potential problems. Brainstorm to draw into MY biggest threat. And an ultimate that unequivocally wins the game. All of these for zero mana; he truly is the best planeswalker printed.
At this point there's no reason to ban him; nothing new will come out that makes Jace more degenerate and less skill-intensive than he already is. But for the love of god, that card needs to never be reprinted ever again.
And some people think Valakut is format defining?? Seriously? When every color has access to Tectonic Edge without harming their manabase, and (obviously) most of the decks in the Top 8 are decks running Jace and counterspells to put an early stop to Titan tricks? Valakut is a joke where I play.
I am petitioning to get players to stop complaining about mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
hexmage is the only real direct kill spell
maybe burn to
planeswalkers are pretty good all of them because there hard to deal with
sig by Sioux
There's a plenty of decks in standard right now that don't play Jace and show decent standings. (ww, boros, valakut)
I'm just getting back into standard but I see more of a problem with the Titans than Jace. If you play blue don't you also play Mana Leak, Preordain and the like? If people add blue to their deck just for 4 Jaces, that's when I would think Wizards/DCI would become concerned.
Standard:
UWB Control
Modern:
UWR Midrange/Control
UW Control
EDH:
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
G Omnath, Locus of Mana
BUG The Mimeoplasm