My worst match was Eldrazi Green. I think the only way to beat them is to have 10+ counters maindeck Game 1, and MBTrap in the SB for Emrakul and Gaea's Revenge. I will say at least U/W has an out with DoJ versus GRevenge. Tectonic Edge is key for the Eye of Ugin, you have to get rid of it lest they tutor up Emrakul and win. Ratchet Bomb might have been good to nuke their Chalces too. The guy I played was slick, he sided out the non-creature ramp for more beats, and he mains 4 STraps, lol, SO tough. Since he's good, he holds EOUgin till he can tutor something up, making Tectonic Edge only for Temples, pretty smart. Volition Reins helped ALOT.
Running four copies of Jace's Ingenuity is too much. You do NOT want to draw 2+ in your opening hand and the casting cost alone is high enough to drop the card to 2X. There are far far better draw cards for U/W Permission that this card.
What cards draw better than Ingenuity? I can see maybe arguing for 3x JI, but 2? You always want to see one by turn 5-6, so you can you know, win the game.
I am fully on board with a set of Jace's Ingenuity. I cut out Frost Titan for it, and it has made finding my other finishers (SoJI, Gideon, Colonnade) much easier. The card advantage is just crippling.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out my music at J-Xile.com | Me on the sig My Decks, Haves & Wants, Buy/Wish List, and Worksheets:
Hi guys, my first post, but been lurking the UW forum for some time now. Here's my take on the heavy permission. I basically took out most of the cantrip creatures and going for PW win conditions since this deck is meant to live on til late game.
i'm also thinking of throwing either elspeth or gideon into sideboard for a Jace's Ingenuity... i love the card during my testing.. but felt like my deck was missing finisher at the time.
actaully im going to try first by replacing my 2 baby jaces with 2 ingenuity... they were there as a jace removal vs most of the blue containing deck in the meta
Hi guys, my first post, but been lurking the UW forum for some time now. Here's my take on the heavy permission. I basically took out most of the cantrip creatures and going for PW win conditions since this deck is meant to live on til late game.
i'm also thinking of throwing either elspeth or gideon into sideboard for a Jace's Ingenuity... i love the card during my testing.. but felt like my deck was missing finisher at the time.
I like your deck a lot! I would consider cutting Deprive for 2 more Spell Pierce's and drop an Rebuttal for a Cancel to keep your opponent guessing how many counters you run. I would also suggest dropping Tumble Magnet or Jace B. Since you're not running Sun Titan and a PW to fit in at least 3 Ingenuities. Your build is a combo of heavy permission and heavy Planeswalker, very nice imo.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out my music at J-Xile.com | Me on the sig My Decks, Haves & Wants, Buy/Wish List, and Worksheets:
i think im going to drop the Jace B for ingenuity, tumble magnet has be phenomenal with either (or both :P) venser or gideon onboard.. and it helps making sure the that titans/annihilators can't swing for activation of their when atk abilities long enough for me to find an answer via preordain/brainstorm.
plus both ingenuity and jace are both in there for the sake of drawing, i'll have to find a way to deal with resolved jace tms in a mirror match though.
i think im going to drop the Jace B for ingenuity, tumble magnet has be phenomenal with either (or both :P) venser or gideon onboard.. and it helps making sure the that titans/annihilators can't swing for activation of their when atk abilities long enough for me to find an answer via preordain/brainstorm.
plus both ingenuity and jace are both in there for the sake of drawing, i'll have to find a way to deal with resolved jace tms in a mirror match though.
The mana cost on ingenuity and the fact that Beleren can wipe out TMS is the reason I haven't switched. My 5 mana slot already has 4 planeswalkers (2 Gideon, 2 Venser) and my 3 mana slot is a nice fit for Beleren.
The mana cost on ingenuity and the fact that Beleren can wipe out TMS is the reason I haven't switched. My 5 mana slot already has 4 planeswalkers (2 Gideon, 2 Venser) and my 3 mana slot is a nice fit for Beleren.
The problem is that there is a smaller percentage of decks running Jace since Bant is no longer around, and that makes Jace B less desireable as we don't have to worry about the Jace war as much. There is a greater percentage of decks that Ingenuity is more useful against, including control. I would rather hit a game winning Ingenuity late game than have a card that is only really there to neutralize another card.
Jace B does generate cards, but it also gets in the way of Big Jace (legend) and Is not going to win you a game like Ingenuity can. We need to replenish the cards we use countering and removing opposing threats, and It makes finding everything a lot easier, especially with Big Jace, WoO, and Preordain.
Ingenuity is instant speed raw CA, you can't beat that imo. I would put my build against any other control build and probably win thanks to ingenuity, I haven't lost a control match yet. Plus it gives you another reason to leave mana up on your opponents turn, it gives you the option to counter, remove, or draw which are great options going into your next turn.
I have won several games thanks to a late game Ingenuity or two. Try it, I doubt you will dislike running a set.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out my music at J-Xile.com | Me on the sig My Decks, Haves & Wants, Buy/Wish List, and Worksheets:
hm... not exactly liking the new curve i've got now... it used to be a nice exponential curve for cmc vs # of cards... now i personally feel that my 5cmc slot is a bit cluttered.... maybe a few chalices to fix the mana?
in a permission heavy deck, would it be a good idea to run venser?
Not imo. You have less room for Walkers and finishers so they need to be the best options you can run. Venser fits in more of a tapout build, or something more tailored to him imo.
@ ishtob what is your deck looking like now? Chalice belongs in a tapout build imo, if anything I would drop some of your 5 cmc walkers. I prefer Gideon right now personally as a finisher, removal, fog, and protection. You could do like others do and run only 2 Ingenuity, but I feel like they are vital if you want to play heavy permission.
i got a buddy coming over tonight, he runs UB so i can do some testing with both 2 or 3 ingenuity builds... I really like venser as a late game threat... his ult thought never really used scares the crap out of most people in my meta, so they over extend to remove him or tick his points down. And even then, i do run 2 titans and 2 tumbling mag, which works well with venser
I was using Tirel, as a one of, but you are right, baneslayer and gideon both are better than she is, plus jace's ingenuity is a better card instead of her.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
T2:
Modern R/ Boros W/ U/ Eldrazi-Post G/
Top 8'd:
2x Tcg Player Qualifiers
1x MWS Series Trial
Kind of glad I didn't buy her yet then.
I prefer Gideon, He is removal, a fog and a creature all in one. He alone could win games with a clear board and some counter backup for the opponents removal.
I cant seem to find room for Ingenuity in my deck currently and I used to be the only one in my meta that played the card. There are stll some players that think Forsee is miles beyond ingenuity.
Then again they arent great control players either.
i think you should take out the deprives and put in 2 more mana leaks
a playset of leaks own the early game and i think you should try to fit in one more preordain.
other than that it looks pretty solid
your build is similar to my list except that i don't run sun titan
and i have tumble magnets in the side
i think you should take out the deprives and put in 2 more mana leaks
a playset of leaks own the early game and i think you should try to fit in one more preordain.
other than that it looks pretty solid
your build is similar to my list except that i don't run sun titan
and i have tumble magnets in the side
I dont think Mana Leak is so good right now with so many ramp around, i've stayed with leak in hand so many time vs elfdrazi or eldrazi/valakut ramp so i've stopped play it and ive replaced it with 1 Stoic Rebutal and 1 Cancel
I know about Preordian but for the moment i dont know what to replace
Deprive over an additional Mana Leak equals terribad. Deprive sets you back major early game against ramp, and a lot of time they tap out late to play their threats anyway. 4 Mana Leak is a must in UW imo.
Seems like it would get worked by aggro with no WoO and only two SGO...
No Spell Pierce in your counter suite? Mindbreak Trap is more of a sb card imo. No Negate? Negate is the best sb counter imo.
Seas as a two of in the sb is kinda janky imo. I'd run a set or at least three if you wanted to use them. I'm not sold that they are that great again the field either.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out my music at J-Xile.com | Me on the sig My Decks, Haves & Wants, Buy/Wish List, and Worksheets:
Deprive over an additional Mana Leak equals terribad. Deprive sets you back major early game against ramp, and a lot of time they tap out late to play their threats anyway. 4 Mana Leak is a must in UW imo.
Seems like it would get worked by aggro with no WoO and only two SGO...
No Spell Pierce in your counter suite? Mindbreak Trap is more of a sb card imo. No Negate? Negate is the best sb counter imo.
Seas as a two of in the sb is kinda janky imo. I'd run a set or at least three if you wanted to use them. I'm not sold that they are that great again the field either.
I agree i do not like deprive at all. It is way too crucial in the early turns when you need the lands. What i would suggest for you deck is:
-2 deprive
-2 cancel
+2 mana leak
+2 stoic rebuttal
-2 tumble magnet
+1 preordain
you can change frost titan for wormcoil engine depending on your play style ( i personally do not like the titan at all, but thats just me)
-2 venser
+1 jace ingenuity
+1 gideon jura
If you take my ideas for the deck than you will be playing more reactive. You will be able to deal with almost any threat they can play against you and you will almost never want to tap out. basically its more of a traditional verson of uw control.
Sideboard:
-2 mindbreak trap
-2 spreading seas
+4 negate
Im not sure if you would need the arbiter since you already have 3 leylines.
i would -2 the arbiter +2 condemn ( i like to play a lot of removal though, if you feel the arbiters are needed then keep them im not aware of your meta )
My Decks, Haves & Wants, Buy/Wish List, and Worksheets:
Standard:
:symu::symw::symb:Control:symb::symw::symu:
:symu::symw::symr:Flash:symr::symw::symu:
Modern:
:symu::symb: Tezzfinty :symb::symu:
Legacy:
:symu::symw::symr:Stoneblade:symr::symw::symu:
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
1 Kabira Crossroads
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Tectonic Edge
Creatures(2)
2 Frost Titan
Counter spells(10)
1 Spell Pierce
4 Mana Leak
2 Deprive
3 Stoic Rebuttal
3 Condemn
2 Journey to Nowhere
2 Tumble Magnet
3 Day of Judgment
Misc Spells(4)
4 Preordain
Walkers(9)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Jace Beleren
2 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Elspeth Tirel
1 Gideon Jura
3 Into the Roil
2 Negate
3 Leonin Arbiter
3 Luminarch Ascension
1 Day of Judgment
3 Leyline of Sancitity
i'm also thinking of throwing either elspeth or gideon into sideboard for a Jace's Ingenuity... i love the card during my testing.. but felt like my deck was missing finisher at the time.
I like your deck a lot! I would consider cutting Deprive for 2 more Spell Pierce's and drop an Rebuttal for a Cancel to keep your opponent guessing how many counters you run. I would also suggest dropping Tumble Magnet or Jace B. Since you're not running Sun Titan and a PW to fit in at least 3 Ingenuities. Your build is a combo of heavy permission and heavy Planeswalker, very nice imo.
My Decks, Haves & Wants, Buy/Wish List, and Worksheets:
Standard:
:symu::symw::symb:Control:symb::symw::symu:
:symu::symw::symr:Flash:symr::symw::symu:
Modern:
:symu::symb: Tezzfinty :symb::symu:
Legacy:
:symu::symw::symr:Stoneblade:symr::symw::symu:
plus both ingenuity and jace are both in there for the sake of drawing, i'll have to find a way to deal with resolved jace tms in a mirror match though.
The mana cost on ingenuity and the fact that Beleren can wipe out TMS is the reason I haven't switched. My 5 mana slot already has 4 planeswalkers (2 Gideon, 2 Venser) and my 3 mana slot is a nice fit for Beleren.
Certified Rules Advisor
The problem is that there is a smaller percentage of decks running Jace since Bant is no longer around, and that makes Jace B less desireable as we don't have to worry about the Jace war as much. There is a greater percentage of decks that Ingenuity is more useful against, including control. I would rather hit a game winning Ingenuity late game than have a card that is only really there to neutralize another card.
Jace B does generate cards, but it also gets in the way of Big Jace (legend) and Is not going to win you a game like Ingenuity can. We need to replenish the cards we use countering and removing opposing threats, and It makes finding everything a lot easier, especially with Big Jace, WoO, and Preordain.
Ingenuity is instant speed raw CA, you can't beat that imo. I would put my build against any other control build and probably win thanks to ingenuity, I haven't lost a control match yet. Plus it gives you another reason to leave mana up on your opponents turn, it gives you the option to counter, remove, or draw which are great options going into your next turn.
I have won several games thanks to a late game Ingenuity or two. Try it, I doubt you will dislike running a set.
My Decks, Haves & Wants, Buy/Wish List, and Worksheets:
Standard:
:symu::symw::symb:Control:symb::symw::symu:
:symu::symw::symr:Flash:symr::symw::symu:
Modern:
:symu::symb: Tezzfinty :symb::symu:
Legacy:
:symu::symw::symr:Stoneblade:symr::symw::symu:
Not imo. You have less room for Walkers and finishers so they need to be the best options you can run. Venser fits in more of a tapout build, or something more tailored to him imo.
@ ishtob what is your deck looking like now? Chalice belongs in a tapout build imo, if anything I would drop some of your 5 cmc walkers. I prefer Gideon right now personally as a finisher, removal, fog, and protection. You could do like others do and run only 2 Ingenuity, but I feel like they are vital if you want to play heavy permission.
My Decks, Haves & Wants, Buy/Wish List, and Worksheets:
Standard:
:symu::symw::symb:Control:symb::symw::symu:
:symu::symw::symr:Flash:symr::symw::symu:
Modern:
:symu::symb: Tezzfinty :symb::symu:
Legacy:
:symu::symw::symr:Stoneblade:symr::symw::symu:
Modern
R/ Boros W/
U/ Eldrazi-Post G/
Top 8'd:
2x Tcg Player Qualifiers
1x MWS Series Trial
Top'16:
PTQ Austin
PTQ Paris
Extended:
RIP
Legacy: Zoo
"I am the beast of America"
Props to Hakai Studios for the banner
I prefer Gideon, He is removal, a fog and a creature all in one. He alone could win games with a clear board and some counter backup for the opponents removal.
I cant seem to find room for Ingenuity in my deck currently and I used to be the only one in my meta that played the card. There are stll some players that think Forsee is miles beyond ingenuity.
Then again they arent great control players either.
Here is my deck for tomorrow fnm:
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Seachrome Coast
2 Halimar Depths
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
3 Plains
4 Tectonic Edge
Creatures - 5
2 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Frost Titan
2 Sun Titan
3 Preordain
Counter spells - 10
2 Deprive
2 Mana Leak
2 Stoic Rebuttal
2 Cancel
2 Mindbreak Trap
Removal Spells - 9
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Day of Judgment
2 Journey to Nowhere
2 Tumble Magnet
PlainsWalkers - 8
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Jace Beleren
2 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Gideon Jura
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spreading Seas
2 Leonin Arbiter
2 Luminarch Ascension
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Celestial Purge
What do you think abou it?
i think you should take out the deprives and put in 2 more mana leaks
a playset of leaks own the early game and i think you should try to fit in one more preordain.
other than that it looks pretty solid
your build is similar to my list except that i don't run sun titan
and i have tumble magnets in the side
I dont think Mana Leak is so good right now with so many ramp around, i've stayed with leak in hand so many time vs elfdrazi or eldrazi/valakut ramp so i've stopped play it and ive replaced it with 1 Stoic Rebutal and 1 Cancel
I know about Preordian but for the moment i dont know what to replace
61 cards? Jace B looks like the odd man out.
Deprive over an additional Mana Leak equals terribad. Deprive sets you back major early game against ramp, and a lot of time they tap out late to play their threats anyway. 4 Mana Leak is a must in UW imo.
Seems like it would get worked by aggro with no WoO and only two SGO...
No Spell Pierce in your counter suite? Mindbreak Trap is more of a sb card imo. No Negate? Negate is the best sb counter imo.
Seas as a two of in the sb is kinda janky imo. I'd run a set or at least three if you wanted to use them. I'm not sold that they are that great again the field either.
My Decks, Haves & Wants, Buy/Wish List, and Worksheets:
Standard:
:symu::symw::symb:Control:symb::symw::symu:
:symu::symw::symr:Flash:symr::symw::symu:
Modern:
:symu::symb: Tezzfinty :symb::symu:
Legacy:
:symu::symw::symr:Stoneblade:symr::symw::symu:
I agree i do not like deprive at all. It is way too crucial in the early turns when you need the lands. What i would suggest for you deck is:
-2 deprive
-2 cancel
+2 mana leak
+2 stoic rebuttal
-2 tumble magnet
+1 preordain
you can change frost titan for wormcoil engine depending on your play style ( i personally do not like the titan at all, but thats just me)
-2 venser
+1 jace ingenuity
+1 gideon jura
If you take my ideas for the deck than you will be playing more reactive. You will be able to deal with almost any threat they can play against you and you will almost never want to tap out. basically its more of a traditional verson of uw control.
Sideboard:
-2 mindbreak trap
-2 spreading seas
+4 negate
Im not sure if you would need the arbiter since you already have 3 leylines.
i would -2 the arbiter +2 condemn ( i like to play a lot of removal though, if you feel the arbiters are needed then keep them im not aware of your meta )