My concern is with the lack of Martial Coup. Also, Deprive is a great card but I'm not sure about 3 main. Same with double negative. My counter suite is:
2 double negative
2 deprive
2 cancel
It works wonderfully.
Also, I agree with not running draw. With 8 cantrips plus Jace it's kinda a waste of card space. The first thing I wanted to change from the original list was Divination.
He has card draw, Wall of Omens/Spreading Seas. Good math. It definitely needs more, but it has -some- capability. See Beyond is excellent in this deck; roommate and I have been testing it, and it's VERY good in this deck archetype. It allows you to run 4x Jace, which is absolutely right, with no drawback. It's not brute card advantage like, say, Treasure Hunt can potentially be... But it's 1000% better at providing card quality. Along with Deprive/Halimar Depths interaction and Jace, along with your full 8 fetch compliment, it's a quite healthy quantity of digging ability combined with the best manipulation in standard. Give it a try. I'd also suggest, depending on your meta, -2DoJ, +2 Coup. Totally with Jazzy on this, Coup is DoJ plus a wincon in one card.
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Thanks to SB4 of High~Light Studios for the sick sig!
Well this seems obvious but why not put 4 kor firewalker in the sb to shore up an untested and prob bad red matchup? I think this should be an auto include, why not? Red is good and popular at least.
Well this seems obvious but why not put 4 kor firewalker in the sb to shore up an untested and prob bad red matchup? I think this should be an auto include, why not? Red is good and popular at least.
many are already running some Firewalkers along with Purge and Flashfreeze.
got a surprise in my email today from japan. here's yuuta takahashi's updated list of the UWR planeswalker deck. gonna give it a go later at the local store. kinda worried about this build cuz he took out the set of PTEs.
The borderposts I usually hold back and hardcast for Ramp. Although they do make you vunerable to Maelstrom Pulse, if you mainly play them as ramp (and don't play 2 early vs Jund) its not to much of a probelm. Its some what evened out by the fact they can't be destroyed by Goblin Ruinblaster and Tectonic edge.
With 2x Tectonic Edge, 3x Ajani, 3x Scepter and 4x Spreading Seas, often I can keep my opponents lands locked down so they only have 2-3 usable mana up to about T6.
This deck has so many win conditions I love it: Jace Ultimate\Colonnade\Sphinx\Elspeth Pumping tokens or Colonnade\Martial Coup.
I ended up cutting my Red sources and running only Ajani in Red. In earlier builds I tried Earthquake but found I could never use it because it would bring my life total too low, and when I was ahead on life it was usually just a "Win more" card. Comet Storm was nice as 2-of, but the RR cost was too hard on the mana base. When I had enough red to cast it consistently I was ending up short on Blue or White.
It seems to have one weakness: misplays. Other than that there is no one card that hoses it that anyone is going to main deck. If anything, people may start running All is Dust or Planar Cleansing in the board, in which case the Negates would come in. Like Lewis said, Pithing Needle is a bit too narrow to have much of a lasting effect and is weak to Oblivion Ring. Needle is not the answer for this deck.
I've played probably 20-30 games against it and with it since Saturday night and for the life of me can't figure out a true weakness. It's a very solid deck.
Guess I'll just have to hope I can beat through it like I do the U/W control deck's then. Ajani Vengent worries me though.
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Ramping into Ajani/Jace followed by Time Warp is unbelievably busted.
EOT Into the Roil on Needle/O ring/Their Walker followed by your own walker/Time Warp is also nuts.
Into the Roil/O Ring/Jace/Martial Coup gives you roughly 1 zillion outs to polymorph even game 1.
Edge comes out for mountain in the mirror. O ring and Roil's main targets become Ajani, other O rings, and Spreading Seas. Time Warp wins it once you land him.
time warp is good when you have a planeswalker, a cycle when you don't though and another expensive card in the deck. Cutting the path's is really a nono as they are simply your best cards against aggro deck's. Thrinax and vengevine are hell for the deck without path. Path only became better and is a must as you can also use it on your own wall in the mirror to win the mana game.
For the mirror I'd consider the 4th o-ring before anything else really.
-1 Cup, -2 See Beyond
+3 Path
is totally correct if you see a heavy aggro meta, but I'm really expecting most decks to be either something like this, UW that tries to use All is dust or Planar Cleansing to try to beat this deck, Polymorph/RDW that tries to race this, and some more disruptive Jund Builds/some vampires that try to duress UW to death. Leaning more heavily to the UW/Polymorph side of things.
IF UW moves towards 6/7 mana boards sweepers, a 4th O ring, a 4th Ajani and maybe 1 more edge in the board will be correct, so you can keep them off 7 or WWW and then time warp them out.
Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
My concern is with the lack of Martial Coup. Also, Deprive is a great card but I'm not sure about 3 main. Same with double negative. My counter suite is:
2 double negative
2 deprive
2 cancel
It works wonderfully.
Also, I agree with not running draw. With 8 cantrips plus Jace it's kinda a waste of card space. The first thing I wanted to change from the original list was Divination.
I agree. I'm concerned about not having any Coup in the main. Perhaps I'll just have to -2 my baneslayers and +2 the Coup. The problem is, this is where Divination really shines. I don't know if I can get to seven mana by turn 7. If anything, I deffinately want to drop Elspeth to a 2 of from the original list. Just have to toy around with it a bit more. Perhaps I can make Divination a 2-of and go to 4-3 Double Negs. More testing is required.
As you can see here, I had a very similar list built in mid-April. I ended up dropping the Quake for a 3rd Spring and pushed a Gideon to the SB for a 3rd Coup. I also ran Elspeht as a 2 of in the SB. I ran this list at a GPT this past weekend and lost out in top 8 against RDW. The only other decks that I had any issue with were Vamps and a Runeflare Trap build. RDW still barely got there and if I had 2 more PtE main and ANY Purge in the board, I would have taken it; seriously the two games that I lost were close! Vamps got me g3 because I got Sludged AND he had 3x Bloodghast to jump-rope over my mass removal. I don't think that it's a bad MU, and again with more Path and Purge, my odds get better. Runeflare Trap...I dunno: this wasn't some janky build/player, this was a well-oiled control build that had a few too many counters for my Negates post-board.
My thoughts on Laskin/Stark's build vs. mine:
1) No Everflowing Chalice is the call. If I wasn't finishing my last semester of grad school, and had time to playtest enough, I'm sure that I would have seen this to be the case.
2) Without Chalice, I feel that Spring and Coup get a lot worse, so I also like Divination in here, as it smooths out the curve.
3) I really wanted to run 4x PtE and more Orings, but with the Chalices seeming necessary I didn't have room, and I am glad that it was the call in his list; I think that Vengvine or Ulamog could be a problem if unanswered. I do have to deal with a fairly competitive Gw Eldrazi ramp deck that seems to be a fairly bad MU for this (don't worry though because it's probably not going to end up as a main archetype).
4) Elspeth MD = good call. She came in SO often. Also, as I said half a month ago, Gideon shines when you maximize his bodyguard abilities.
The lack of mass removal worries me a bit, but with more rfg AND 12 walkers MD, I don't see many decks (apart from possibly UW Control) having a good MU against this!!
Congrats to Lewis and everyone else that saw Gideon for what he is, the Brawny Man, soaking up all kinds of damage!!!
Like Lewis said, Pithing Needle is a bit too narrow to have much of a lasting effect and is weak to Oblivion Ring. Needle is not the answer for this deck.
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Pithing Needle. It's the most versatile SB card in Standard. It will certainly see increased play as the new-age PW Parade decks continue to catch steam and any deck running white will also match your O-Rings. I'm not going to list its extensive uses but, needless to say, it's useful against more than just Planeswalkers and they'll probably stick unless it's Vamps (no counter-O-Rings). I guess you'll just "play around it?" *shrug* Not much else you can do there.
I guess the real question is how much you're worried about the decks that will run it. Most Jund won't run it (no immediate CA, nevermind the incremental CA it costs the opponent... *ahem*) and have better things to side in (Duress, etc.), other control decks will simply attempt to out-Planeswalker you, and the new Red decks are all-in shooting for sub-Turn 4 kills. If we assume those are the biggest three decks to watch out for in the immediate future, then the "everything else" which would be playing Pithing Needle (Naya, Bant, Vamps, WW if it resurges) might be a non-issue.
I might also be talking out of my ass but my theory is usually stronger than my casual investment in the game would indicate.
The more I think about it, the more I actually like Lightmine Field + Wall of Denial against this deck, even though they aren't running any creatures. There's no way of dealing with a resolved Lightmine Field, and most of the removal is targeted (except for 2 DoJ and 2 Martial Coup). The only relevant counters that are run are 4 Negates out of the board.
Their primary win conditions are:
- Ajani (doesn't tap, so can't be tapped down); he can slowly burn you out, that requires 11 +1 activations.
- Elspeth. Wall of Denial blocks everything but an Elspeth-pumped Gideon and lives to tell the tale; Path or O-Ring can deal with Gideon
- Gideon, who won't break through unless there's an Elspeth on the board as well
- Martial Coup, which can't attack through a Lightmine Field unless there's an Elspeth pumping them.
- Colonnade, which WoD blocks even with an Elspeth pump
- Jace Ultimate, which can't be stopped by those two cards
The only way they can get rid of the wall is through DoJ/Coup, and you really don't need more than one out at a time so you can sandbag them or counter their wrath effect.
If you're running WoD, you're running Jace as well, so you can legend rule him out of the picture. Then you're left just dealing with their 4 (5 post-board) wrath effects, and their 3 Elspeths.
The more I think about it, the more I actually like Lightmine Field + Wall of Denial against this deck, even though they aren't running any creatures. There's no way of dealing with a resolved Lightmine Field, and most of the removal is targeted (except for 2 DoJ and 2 Martial Coup). The only relevant counters that are run are 4 Negates out of the board.
Their primary win conditions are:
- Ajani (doesn't tap, so can't be tapped down); he can slowly burn you out, that requires 11 +1 activations.
- Elspeth. Wall of Denial blocks everything but an Elspeth-pumped Gideon and lives to tell the tale; Path or O-Ring can deal with Gideon
- Gideon, who won't break through unless there's an Elspeth on the board as well
- Martial Coup, which can't attack through a Lightmine Field unless there's an Elspeth pumping them.
- Colonnade, which WoD blocks even with an Elspeth pump
- Jace Ultimate, which can't be stopped by those two cards
The only way they can get rid of the wall is through DoJ/Coup, and you really don't need more than one out at a time so you can sandbag them or counter their wrath effect.
If you're running WoD, you're running Jace as well, so you can legend rule him out of the picture. Then you're left just dealing with their 4 (5 post-board) wrath effects, and their 3 Elspeths.
I'm not sure if that's going to work the deck will basically wrath your walls away because it has no other relevant targets and then win with either Ajani and Jace or just deal 20 damage. The other problem is if you O-ring Gideon one of the other planeswalkers will steal the game from you because odds are if your running walls and lightmine you don't have that many ways to deal with your opponents walkers. The deck isn't trying to beat you down it's just another option to win. The things that matter right now against control decks are counters, must deal with permanents (walkers and luminarch), and O-rings so if your trying to beat this deck you would have better odds sideboarding more counters, o-rings, planeswalkers, and ascensions then them instead of playing lightmine and wall.
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UWr Walker Control
@ Lewis: if you don't mind, could you share some of your SBing strategies against the major archetypes (Jund, Naya, mono-R, UW Tapout/Control, Mythic, etc)? I am sure that most people can easily decide what to put in for g2 and g3, but choosing what to take out is always a bit more difficult. Thanks in advance!
Jund: +3x FF, 3x KF, 3x CP, 3x WoD; -3x OR, 3x PtE, 2x DoJ, 3x Div, 1x Jace (I took Divination out as a default for a few MUs, though I could see them staying in, if there was something better to drop because they make Blightning a little less relevant.)
Mythic: +2x WoD; -2x Div (Nuff said)
Mirror: +4x Negate, 3x KF; -4x WoO, 2x DoJ, 1x MC (I brought in Kor Firewalkers because we run SO many dead cards in the mirror, they will prolly side out most of their removal/Walls, they';; get in some early beats, AND Ajani can't touch 'em!)
Naya: +3x FF, 3x KF; -3x OR, 3x Div (I would have brought in WoD here, but I figure that they'll snag a Collar quickly, making WoD less useful.)
Vamps: +4x Negate, 3x CP; -4x SS, 3x OR (A few people in my meta still run Vamps, and between Hexmage and Bloodghast, they can be annoying!)
Mono-R: +4x Negate, 3x FF, 3x KF, 3x CP, 2x WoD; -4x SS, 3x OR, 2x DoJ, 2x MC, 3x Div, 1x Jace. (As I said above, I lost out of top 8 at the GPT to mono-R, but it was barely, and I think with this SB, it won't be as much of an issue. As you can see, I sided in the ENTIRE board, but since we have quite a few dead/slow cards MD for this MU, I was fine with the extreme transformation.)
If you side in kor firewalker in the mirror you should really rethink your sideboard and sideboarding plans. Against such a prevalent matchup you really need to have a more solid plan.
Your board just overdoes it on anti-red/jund with all cards except negate basically geared towards that.
First of all i really recommend the extra land in the board for whenever you side out wall of omen, the mirror is about lands and you actually lower your effective land count after boarding.
Overall I think you just need to cut down on some Kor, ff and purge. Kor for example is not good against naya and shouldnt be even brought in, you want sweepers for that matchup. Also don't just take out the divinations when you know nothing else, in this setup without chalice they are a vital part of your curve. For example againt jund i'd remove all jace or ajani V's first before i'd take out the divinations.
Yeah, I would think of dropping KF completely if I didn't have a few RDWs in my meta. As for Naya, yeah, when playing UW I never brought them in as they only chump Ravine. I do like the idea of running 1x Edge in the SB, and will prolly drop a KF for it.
As for SBing out Walkers, I had though about dropping Jace in Jund, but I haven't played enough with Divination to know which was the call. I do love how it smooths out the curve! Thanks for the insight!!
@ All: If this deck becomes prevalent, does anyone else see Telemin Performance being side boarded/an issue?
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"I'll go against a tank with a shank for my dreams and that's my f@#$%n' word!" -Dead Prez
First off, I personally think see beyond is the better choice over divination here. Between the legend rule for pw, dead cards gm 1 like doj , coup and anything else you wont need, Its a great way of filtering out those cards while giving another option on turn 2. Sure, 3 fits the curve better but its still good at 2 mana if I feel like im getting the same effect.
Tonite I lost to jund in 3 gms, he was playing 2 cards that decisively turned the matchup not in his favor but greatly improved it. All is dust and monument. These cards were a blowout and I think every jund player should have these sb ready.
Pithing needle is far from narrow - it shuts off Fetches (every deck?), man-lands (almost every multi-color deck?), equipment (Mystic Packages?), and Knight of the Reliquary (in every 3-color aggro build)....not to mention the slew of Jace 2.0 that is rampaging through standard atm. The only reason Pithing needle isn't playable maindeck is because it's almost worthless against mono-colored aggro. Also, as control is becoming more dominant (Gladiator, Chapin, Tapout, Esper, etc) PW's in general are becoming more common - hell, I saw both versions of Sarkan Vol this week in a 16k (I believe they were both out of the board specifically against control).
Just ignoring Pithing Needle is equivilant to just ignoring the RDW match-up, it might work for you if you get lucky...but luck is all it is.
I don't agree with people suggesting to cut out Ajani Vengeant. It does make your mana base a little shaky, but he's probably your most important tool against the control matchups, as being able to lock down Celestial Colonnade/Everflowing Chalice gives you such an incredible advantage, and it's not that difficult to get to 7 when your opponent isn't putting any immediate pressure on you.
The 1 MD Sphinx is something I'm going to test, just as something of a pre-board trump in the mirror that dodges removal and most of the planeswalker abilities (it doesn't dodge what may be the most important one, that being Gideon's +2, which may ultimately make it not worthwhile).
I'm not sure if the "side into Baneslayer" plan is the correct way to go, but it's something I'm willing to test. Being able to catch people off guard after they board out creature removal for planeswalker removal/disruption may very well be worth it. People expecting a fully netdecked list may also be thrown for a loop as the winning builds did not play ye slayer of wallets.
My concern is with the lack of Martial Coup. Also, Deprive is a great card but I'm not sure about 3 main. Same with double negative. My counter suite is:
2 double negative
2 deprive
2 cancel
It works wonderfully.
Also, I agree with not running draw. With 8 cantrips plus Jace it's kinda a waste of card space. The first thing I wanted to change from the original list was Divination.
Thanks to SB4 of High~Light Studios for the sick sig!
many are already running some Firewalkers along with Purge and Flashfreeze.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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Only 2 lists here I saw have firewalker. one ran 2 the other ran 1. Im talkin the full set. take on a big deck with dedicated hate slots.
4 everflowing chalice
4 spreading seas
2 negate
3 oblivion ring
3 time warp
2 martial coup
2 mind spring
2 elspeth, the knight errant
3 gideon jura
3 ajani vengeant
4 plains
5 island
1 mountain
4 glacial fortress
4 celestial colonnade
3 arid mesa
4 scalding tarn
I might swap out the Sphinxes for Gideon, not sure yet.
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Arid Mesa
1 Glacial Fortress
5 Plains
2 Mountain
3 Island
2 Tectonic Edge
Creatures 6
4 Wall of Omens
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
4 Everflowing Chalice
2 Path to Exile
4 Spreading Seas
2 Mind Spring
3 Fieldmist Borderpost
3 Scepter of Dominance
3 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elsepth, Knight Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Day of Judgment
3 Martial Coup
2 Pithing Needle
2 Luminarch Ascension
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Banefire
3 Kor Sanctifiers
4 Negate
The borderposts I usually hold back and hardcast for Ramp. Although they do make you vunerable to Maelstrom Pulse, if you mainly play them as ramp (and don't play 2 early vs Jund) its not to much of a probelm. Its some what evened out by the fact they can't be destroyed by Goblin Ruinblaster and Tectonic edge.
With 2x Tectonic Edge, 3x Ajani, 3x Scepter and 4x Spreading Seas, often I can keep my opponents lands locked down so they only have 2-3 usable mana up to about T6.
This deck has so many win conditions I love it: Jace Ultimate\Colonnade\Sphinx\Elspeth Pumping tokens or Colonnade\Martial Coup.
I ended up cutting my Red sources and running only Ajani in Red. In earlier builds I tried Earthquake but found I could never use it because it would bring my life total too low, and when I was ahead on life it was usually just a "Win more" card. Comet Storm was nice as 2-of, but the RR cost was too hard on the mana base. When I had enough red to cast it consistently I was ending up short on Blue or White.
Guess I'll just have to hope I can beat through it like I do the U/W control deck's then. Ajani Vengent worries me though.
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3 Ajani Vengeant/The Human Torch
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor/Mr. Fantastic
3 Gideon Jura/The Thing
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant/The Invisible Woman
4 Wall of Omens
4 Spreading Seas
4 Everflowing Chalice
3 Time Warp
3 Oblivion Ring
2 See Beyond
2 Martial Coup
2 Into The Roil
4 Island
1 Mountain
3 Plains
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Tectonic Edge
SB:
1 Mountain
4 Negate
3 Wall Of Denial
3 Path To Exile
1 Into The Roil
1 Time Warp
2 Kor Firewalker
Ramping into Ajani/Jace followed by Time Warp is unbelievably busted.
EOT Into the Roil on Needle/O ring/Their Walker followed by your own walker/Time Warp is also nuts.
Into the Roil/O Ring/Jace/Martial Coup gives you roughly 1 zillion outs to polymorph even game 1.
Edge comes out for mountain in the mirror. O ring and Roil's main targets become Ajani, other O rings, and Spreading Seas. Time Warp wins it once you land him.
-1 Cup, -2 See Beyond
+3 Path
is totally correct if you see a heavy aggro meta, but I'm really expecting most decks to be either something like this, UW that tries to use All is dust or Planar Cleansing to try to beat this deck, Polymorph/RDW that tries to race this, and some more disruptive Jund Builds/some vampires that try to duress UW to death. Leaning more heavily to the UW/Polymorph side of things.
IF UW moves towards 6/7 mana boards sweepers, a 4th O ring, a 4th Ajani and maybe 1 more edge in the board will be correct, so you can keep them off 7 or WWW and then time warp them out.
Thanks to Piet at http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=208325
Trade Thread:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=229689
Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
I agree. I'm concerned about not having any Coup in the main. Perhaps I'll just have to -2 my baneslayers and +2 the Coup. The problem is, this is where Divination really shines. I don't know if I can get to seven mana by turn 7. If anything, I deffinately want to drop Elspeth to a 2 of from the original list. Just have to toy around with it a bit more. Perhaps I can make Divination a 2-of and go to 4-3 Double Negs. More testing is required.
My thoughts on Laskin/Stark's build vs. mine:
1) No Everflowing Chalice is the call. If I wasn't finishing my last semester of grad school, and had time to playtest enough, I'm sure that I would have seen this to be the case.
2) Without Chalice, I feel that Spring and Coup get a lot worse, so I also like Divination in here, as it smooths out the curve.
3) I really wanted to run 4x PtE and more Orings, but with the Chalices seeming necessary I didn't have room, and I am glad that it was the call in his list; I think that Vengvine or Ulamog could be a problem if unanswered. I do have to deal with a fairly competitive Gw Eldrazi ramp deck that seems to be a fairly bad MU for this (don't worry though because it's probably not going to end up as a main archetype).
4) Elspeth MD = good call. She came in SO often. Also, as I said half a month ago, Gideon shines when you maximize his bodyguard abilities.
The lack of mass removal worries me a bit, but with more rfg AND 12 walkers MD, I don't see many decks (apart from possibly UW Control) having a good MU against this!!
Congrats to Lewis and everyone else that saw Gideon for what he is, the Brawny Man, soaking up all kinds of damage!!!
"I'll go against a tank with a shank for my dreams and that's my f@#$%n' word!" -Dead Prez
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Pithing Needle. It's the most versatile SB card in Standard. It will certainly see increased play as the new-age PW Parade decks continue to catch steam and any deck running white will also match your O-Rings. I'm not going to list its extensive uses but, needless to say, it's useful against more than just Planeswalkers and they'll probably stick unless it's Vamps (no counter-O-Rings). I guess you'll just "play around it?" *shrug* Not much else you can do there.
I guess the real question is how much you're worried about the decks that will run it. Most Jund won't run it (no immediate CA, nevermind the incremental CA it costs the opponent... *ahem*) and have better things to side in (Duress, etc.), other control decks will simply attempt to out-Planeswalker you, and the new Red decks are all-in shooting for sub-Turn 4 kills. If we assume those are the biggest three decks to watch out for in the immediate future, then the "everything else" which would be playing Pithing Needle (Naya, Bant, Vamps, WW if it resurges) might be a non-issue.
I might also be talking out of my ass but my theory is usually stronger than my casual investment in the game would indicate.
Their primary win conditions are:
- Ajani (doesn't tap, so can't be tapped down); he can slowly burn you out, that requires 11 +1 activations.
- Elspeth. Wall of Denial blocks everything but an Elspeth-pumped Gideon and lives to tell the tale; Path or O-Ring can deal with Gideon
- Gideon, who won't break through unless there's an Elspeth on the board as well
- Martial Coup, which can't attack through a Lightmine Field unless there's an Elspeth pumping them.
- Colonnade, which WoD blocks even with an Elspeth pump
- Jace Ultimate, which can't be stopped by those two cards
The only way they can get rid of the wall is through DoJ/Coup, and you really don't need more than one out at a time so you can sandbag them or counter their wrath effect.
If you're running WoD, you're running Jace as well, so you can legend rule him out of the picture. Then you're left just dealing with their 4 (5 post-board) wrath effects, and their 3 Elspeths.
T2: UW Lightmine Control UW
I'm not sure if that's going to work the deck will basically wrath your walls away because it has no other relevant targets and then win with either Ajani and Jace or just deal 20 damage. The other problem is if you O-ring Gideon one of the other planeswalkers will steal the game from you because odds are if your running walls and lightmine you don't have that many ways to deal with your opponents walkers. The deck isn't trying to beat you down it's just another option to win. The things that matter right now against control decks are counters, must deal with permanents (walkers and luminarch), and O-rings so if your trying to beat this deck you would have better odds sideboarding more counters, o-rings, planeswalkers, and ascensions then them instead of playing lightmine and wall.
When posting results, include as many details as possible including k value of the event. Please post game and match results for every round. Sideboarding ins/outs are recommended. When posting round results, an indication of the quality of deck and player are always helpful. This will help other gauge the importance of each match.
Thanks!
Threads in this sub-forum will be user created. However, threads with no discussion will be pruned quickly to prevent necroing and confusion.
Remember, this is competitive. Arguments are expected to backed up with logic, testing and results. This means real testing against competitive decks and quality players and results from better than 8k REL tournaments (FNM results do not count).
Deck types allowed in this sub-forum:
UWr Walker Control
Btw, with this list...:
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Arid Mesa
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Techtonic Edge
4x Plains
4x Island
1x Mountain
Creatures: 4
4x Wall of Omens
4x Spreading Seas
3x Oblivion Ring
Instants: 4
4x Path to Exile
Sorceries: 7
3x Divination
2x Day of Judgment
2x Martial Coup
Walkers: 12
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Ajani Vengeant
3x Gideon Jura
4x Negate
3x Flashfreeze
3x Kor Firewalker
3x Celestial Purge
2x Wall of Denial
Jund: +3x FF, 3x KF, 3x CP, 3x WoD; -3x OR, 3x PtE, 2x DoJ, 3x Div, 1x Jace (I took Divination out as a default for a few MUs, though I could see them staying in, if there was something better to drop because they make Blightning a little less relevant.)
Mythic: +2x WoD; -2x Div (Nuff said)
Mirror: +4x Negate, 3x KF; -4x WoO, 2x DoJ, 1x MC (I brought in Kor Firewalkers because we run SO many dead cards in the mirror, they will prolly side out most of their removal/Walls, they';; get in some early beats, AND Ajani can't touch 'em!)
Naya: +3x FF, 3x KF; -3x OR, 3x Div (I would have brought in WoD here, but I figure that they'll snag a Collar quickly, making WoD less useful.)
Vamps: +4x Negate, 3x CP; -4x SS, 3x OR (A few people in my meta still run Vamps, and between Hexmage and Bloodghast, they can be annoying!)
Mono-R: +4x Negate, 3x FF, 3x KF, 3x CP, 2x WoD; -4x SS, 3x OR, 2x DoJ, 2x MC, 3x Div, 1x Jace. (As I said above, I lost out of top 8 at the GPT to mono-R, but it was barely, and I think with this SB, it won't be as much of an issue. As you can see, I sided in the ENTIRE board, but since we have quite a few dead/slow cards MD for this MU, I was fine with the extreme transformation.)
Thoughts/comments?
"I'll go against a tank with a shank for my dreams and that's my f@#$%n' word!" -Dead Prez
Yeah, I would think of dropping KF completely if I didn't have a few RDWs in my meta. As for Naya, yeah, when playing UW I never brought them in as they only chump Ravine. I do like the idea of running 1x Edge in the SB, and will prolly drop a KF for it.
As for SBing out Walkers, I had though about dropping Jace in Jund, but I haven't played enough with Divination to know which was the call. I do love how it smooths out the curve! Thanks for the insight!!
@ All: If this deck becomes prevalent, does anyone else see Telemin Performance being side boarded/an issue?
"I'll go against a tank with a shank for my dreams and that's my f@#$%n' word!" -Dead Prez
Tonite I lost to jund in 3 gms, he was playing 2 cards that decisively turned the matchup not in his favor but greatly improved it. All is dust and monument. These cards were a blowout and I think every jund player should have these sb ready.
Just ignoring Pithing Needle is equivilant to just ignoring the RDW match-up, it might work for you if you get lucky...but luck is all it is.
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Wall of Omens
1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Gideon Jura
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Day of Judgment
2 Martial Coup
3 Oblivion Ring
3 See Beyond
4 Spreading Seas
4 Path to Exile
4 Baneslayer Angel
3 Flashfreeze
3 Kor Firewalker
3 Negate
2 Mind Control
The 1 MD Sphinx is something I'm going to test, just as something of a pre-board trump in the mirror that dodges removal and most of the planeswalker abilities (it doesn't dodge what may be the most important one, that being Gideon's +2, which may ultimately make it not worthwhile).
I'm not sure if the "side into Baneslayer" plan is the correct way to go, but it's something I'm willing to test. Being able to catch people off guard after they board out creature removal for planeswalker removal/disruption may very well be worth it. People expecting a fully netdecked list may also be thrown for a loop as the winning builds did not play ye slayer of wallets.