I just have no idea why people are playing Trace of Abundance to begin with, I have tested it in and out. I have no good results with it whatsoever. When they are on the play, and they seas you, you can't even cast the trace anymore. Rampant at least makes more lands in play, and if you know how to play well enough, you can dupe them into using seas on the incorrect source and it only costs 1G. This means you can use it on the draw, or the play, where as trace is only effective on the play. I still find it completely counter-intuitive to rely on a mana fixing source that requires a highly unconditional scenario.
It had a lot to do with why both me and another Jund player Top 8ed the MMS in Det.
They don't always have seas on T2 and you shouldn't be keeping a hand that folds to it regardless. Most of the time Trace functions as a better growth, but sometimes it can be like Explore in that it can't be counted as a land.
Post Trace they can no longer Seas your land or Tectonic Edge it. Trace on a Ravine can be game over for UW variants or decks in general since they can't kill your 5/5+. This stuff has been repeated a countless numner of times and its not worth going into depth any further.
I have played with it for months and have had good results with it so with that reasoning we will never know if its good or not...
I don't think he works well at all in the current Jund build. Thrinax serves too many purposes to be cut for an obviously subpar creature - it chumps four times, still swings in for the same amount after it's been killed, and the tokens can be Garruk'd for 12 trample damage coming from three different sources.
If you're playing Jund as it currently stands, card advantage is how you're going to beat decks specifically formulated to beat you. Tuktuk is a 2 for 1 at BEST. Thrinax is a 2 for 1 on a bad day.
Like I told the other guy. If you dont like it, then dont use it. Me I like to go out on a limb and try new things. So if you think your deck is fine the way it is, then dont change anything or listen to anyone else's ideas.
Like I told the other guy. If you dont like it, then dont use it. Me I like to go out on a limb and try new things. So if you think your deck is fine the way it is, then dont change anything or listen to anyone else's ideas.
These responses are fairly obnoxious. You came here to post a new idea for the community. People don't like it for good reasons x, y, and z. Saying if you don't like it then don't use it don't add anything to the discussion and instead of telling people to basically go away you need to reason out your arguments a lot better and have in depth game analysis examples of when it was good. You posting a thread for a new idea in a strong archtype is you against the world and if you don't want to explain in more depth why it is competitive then this is a huge waste of time. Without that this is probably just another bad noncompetitive thread.
I may or may not disagree with you, but why don't you give reasoning instead of straight bashing. in certain builds it might be amazing.
Because the newest deck in town is UWR walkers, and pinging planeswalkers for one instead of three or four is a horrible strategy. Gideon grows by +2'ing a Tuk Tuk every turn. Any other creature in Jund will eventually kill him.
Have you already played against planeswalker control? Because you're talking about "control". generalized "control" is wrong. UWr planeswalker control is very different from UW control. In first place UWr don't use counters MD. Second the best cards that UWr have against jund are not PW but wall of omens and seas. If UWr gain 2-3 turn of advantage from walls and seas win. So, what can duress do against those 2 cards? very less. to beat UWr jund have to be very aggressive. So, before give judgments, try the MU.
no no no. I have to disagree with this. Jund's biggest problem is not walls, its an online jace!! With a counter backup for your maelstrome pulse or blightning.
Have you already played against planeswalker control? Because you're talking about "control". generalized "control" is wrong. UWr planeswalker control is very different from UW control. In first place UWr don't use counters MD. Second the best cards that UWr have against jund are not PW but wall of omens and seas. If UWr gain 2-3 turn of advantage from walls and seas win. So, what can duress do against those 2 cards? very less. to beat UWr jund have to be very aggressive. So, before give judgments, try the MU.
Before you give judgments on my judgments of your judgments, you should consider that I HAVE playtested against Planeswalkers (proxies, but it's good enough). Why else would I make the post stating that Duress is good against ALL control if I have not played against ALL control? And btw, the comments about all control were factual: the Planeswalker deck runs almost all the same spells as other control (UW tapout), the only difference is it runs a higher quantity of planeswalkers as it's win condition, less removal, and no creatures other than walls. This does NOT make the deck play that different from other control, it just means your threats are planeswalkers instead of Baneslayer Angels... again Duress works just as well against all types of control hence my comments on ALL control. It was fairly obvious the first read through - but I hope that was explicit enough for you.
While I have not played 50 matches against the deck (seriously, playing 50 games against ONE DECK in under one week might show signs that you have nothing else to do in life but play Magic, but ok lol) I have played enough to tell that it functions quite similar to UW (admittedly more powerful though). Just a heads up the two decks have around 70% of the same cards, so saying they play nothing alike is pretty dumb, but let me elaborate.
You refer to Wall of Omens and Seas as if UW doesn't have these cards, or that the fact that their deck has less removal and more planeswalkers somehow drastically reduces the power of Duress (it actually strengthens it). UW and Planeswalker both run 3-4 of each of Wall of Omens and Seas, so their ability to slow you down is no different. What IS different is that the Planeswalker deck sets up a much more difficult board position in the turns where you are potentially stalled. You know what is great about Duress, you can play it for one mana (easiest casting cost of any card in Jund - which is very valid against Seas decks) and take away their best card in hand for setting up said lock. Again, what other card does that?
It's really just pointless to reply to someone that played 50 matches against an archetype and STILL can't see how good Duress is... so I'm just going to leave what I have said for the benefit of Jund players who aren't prone to handicapping themselves against a matchup - since you obviously are.
Duress is the best answer in the format to Planeswalkers. Well unless you want to start using cards in your board that are dead against other matchups. Pithing Needle is amazing against a lot of decks running planeswalkers but you can't bring it in versus most combo and RDW like you can with Duress.
I'll stick with running a combination of Vapors, Duress, and Malakir Bloodwitch since I find these cards great against multiple matchups (particularly ones we have problems with). Maybe if you dump another 30 hours of playtesting into Jund vs. another deck you can come up with a great rebuttal?
eww.. i wouldnt touch jund hackblade with a 10 foot pole.
maybe in limited.
and try goblin guide on that mana base.
its less effective after t1.
and 4 pulse? thats much.
i agree with what was said before about burst lightning.
more reach in your removal is stellar.
i would do hells thunder.
but no bit.blasts.
cascade + sac at EOT = poor CA.
or plated geopede with appropriate fetches.
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ive noticed last night that UWR can draw pretty horridly.
sometimes after a slew of PWs they hit blanks for a while.
i witnessed multiple games that do so.
get rid of elsbeth and gideon and youre gold.
and t2 putrid is the best thing for you.
path will help you regain ground.
multiple times i found a borderland ranger beating face.
terminating duders that get in the way.
and a few blightning gets you a long way.
mind rot in the side is
strongly suggested for UWR heavy meta.
i dont thing they side in negate
so mind rot can make it through flashfreeze.
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plus you can constantly mana fix yourself.
where rampants mana fix is limited to the one color.
trace lets you play terminates and leeches with the same mana.
its harder to lock you out of a color..
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Tournament: Misty Mountain Rise of Standard Tourney
Players: 22
Format: 5 Rounds of Swiss, then cut to top 8 for an all-foil shards of alara block draft.
Final Place: 5th in Swiss (3-1-1, technically 4-1 but ID for top 8), 3rd in top 8.
This tournament was a lot of fun. We played 5 rounds of swiss and just about every deck in standard had some representation among the 22 players in the room, along with a lot of people trying out new tech. BK (Brian Kowal) was playing, along with a lot of other local good players Jasper Epstein, Ben Rasmussen, our crew, and then some regulars from the shop.
Here's my recap-
Round 1 Vs. Mike with homebrew U/B Control-
I felt bad for Mike for two reasons. The first was that his deck was clearly a casual home brew, and the second was that I was extremely hungover so I could barely keep my eyes open. I even had to interrupt our match to use the restroom, which was just embarrassing (especially since I was killing him on the following turn but when you gotta go you gotta go lol). Regardless, this match was over quick. The first game, I dumped my entire hand by turn 4 which consisted of something like Leech, Cobra, Thrinax, Master, etc. Mike could barely play a few tap-lands and a merfolk by the time he got run over. Game 2, I played a lot of the same, along with 2 bloodbraids, and the most he could do was peck me a few times with his creeping tar pit before I killed it with wolf tokens. That was when he decided it was probably a good idea to read Master of the Wild Hunt while it was killing him.
1-0 (2-0 games)
Round 2 Vs. Alan with Jund
Alan's build was fairly standard Jund, so this was going to be the first time I could see if this Eldrazi version seemed to have an edge. It did seem good, as I had an early lotus cobra that he did not kill and that allowed me to get the attrition war going faster. Eventually a leech and thrinax got there in game 1 after a lot of trades. Ruinblaster also helped kill a raging ravine that would have otherwise caused me serious issues. Game 2, we both play a heavy amount of guys, and I use grim discovery to return thrinax and land, trying to make best use of CA. Ultimately though, he drops multiple bloodbraids + siege gang + his own thrinaxes, and I get overrun before I can get much past 5 or 6 lands. He also had a timely ruinblaster hit here that set me back a ways. Game 3, I get off an explosive lotus cobra start that enables turn 3 and turn 5 ruinblasters, along with a smattering of other creatures and then an eldrazi monument to seal the deal.
2-0 (4-1 games)
Round 3 Vs. Ben Rasmussen with Mythic
Ah, the matchup that always makes me cringe (at least pre-board). This played out oddly. Game 1, he seems to keep a relatively stagnant hand, and despite mys low keep I use multiple bolts and a pulse to take care of 3 early mana accelerators, and also ruinblaster a land for good measure. I put down enough threats, deal with a baneslayer, and eventually he can't catch up. Games 2 and 3 I bring in 3 vapors and 3 doomblade to up my total removal count to 10 (12 if you include siege gang), but both games I fail to see even ONE removal spell. I think I mulled one of the hands too, but still no go. Thus, he gets down soverign at a point in both games and eldrazi conscription on a war monk just crushes me. I played some matches later on for fun against my buddy who was playing mythic (who ID'd for third in swiss and 5th in top 8), and he was also crushing me. This build seems vastly inferior against bant without the terminates main and the sheer amount of removal post-board.
2-1 (5-3 games)
Round 4 Vs. Mike with U/G Polymorph
Game 1 he ponders and halimar depths some, but I have a quick opener with leech, thrinax, ruinblaster, etc. I'm also able to pulse his sole token for polymorph (off a growth spasm), and eventually a Master of the Wild Hunt sticks to ensure there will be no polymorphing without a bounce. Game 2, he plays around 6-7 ponder/see beyond effects, but for some reason he draws into very little token generation and ends up with 2 dead polymorphs in hand and some lands. I don't know how he couldn't draw the nuts with all the stuff he was cycling through, but for some reason he doesn't, and the same scenario as game 1 basically plays out (albiet slower on my part). Master seems really good in this matchup if your able to control their early game.
3-1 (7-3 games)
Round 5 Vs. Ryan with Mono Black Control (MBC)
Ryan's debut for his new MBC deck, and since we had good enough records we were able to ID into the top 8 so we could get a chance to play with the foil shards of alara block packs. We played our round for fun anyway (including sideboards) and I'm able to take the match in 3 games. Game 1 I lost, an embarrassing blowout as he played 3 consuming vapors, tendrils, gatekeepers, and overall just blew me out. Games 2 and 3 I was able to load the board with multiple cobras, multiple bloodbraids, and just developed too big an army. Monument got sided out, as it's horrible against vapors and gatekeeper. Thought Hemorrhage was awesome in our third match - he played Liliana, and immediately tutors. I look at my board, and I think, he's gotta be going for consume the meek. I hemorrhage him for it, and sure enough the top card of his library is consume the meek and I'm able to dig in there and get the second out too. I overwhelm him shortly after. I will say though, he played haunting echoes in game 1 and game 3, and in both games it was RIDICULOUS. In game 1, he ripped every single card out of my deck except for Bloodbraid, pulse, and some various land. That card is obscene and I think more black players need to rep-respect.
3-1-1 (technically 4-1), (9-4 games)
TOP 8
Won't really go into match details. It was a foil shards block draft, and it was really awesome. You kept what you drafted, and 1st place got a From the Vaults: Exiled set, and 1st through 4th got a number of Rise booster packs. I ended up 3rd and got 6 packs, and during the draft I pulled a foil Ajani Vengeant and a foil Soverigns of Lost Alara. There were also a number of cool uncommon and common foils going around. Ben Rasmussen (the winner of the swiss), was the ultimate winner of the draft as well, as he had flameblast dragon and dragon broodmother and my draft deck just did not have enough answers for that business. One of our friends got 3 packs from the TO because he had to leave early, and he ripped a foil Hierach, a foil bit blast, a foil path, a foil hell's thunder, and a foil terminate. Everyone was going nuts over that heh.
I think for Jund in the future I'll probably go more traditional, or more heavy removal. I did like Monument in the mirror along with the higher creature count, and I did like running 4 Maelstrom Pulses main. Other than that, it's too funky a build. The tourney field had at least 2 U/W/R Planeswalker Control decks, 3 Mythic Conscription, 1 nutty tricked out Vampires deck with blade of the bloodchief, hideous end, and some other way lesser used vampire cards (this deck had an epic battle with mythic one game where a Malakir Bloodwitch had 10 +1/+1 counters on it), along with a smattering of every other standard deck out there.
Except that they are a bit limited in effect against blue/white control (one of the bigger competitors in popularity at the moment), which is why pulse is usually split between main and sideboard.
On the note of Jund Hackblades, while I haven't tested them in my competitive Jund build I loved them in my casual deck. Cast Bloodbraid Elf and hit it, have two 3/2 hasters to swing with, which is always solid if you end of turn jund charm before it to sweep the way for them to run in. Still, not sure I would test them competitively.
Also have to agree on the note of Goblin Guide, once you consider Blightning's strengths. And it seems that build lacks some of Junds traditional strengths, noting the full list of terminates (uncommon in most builds even including sideboard) & pulses maindecked (seems like the deck spends a good deal of time removing creatures, poor reaction to control). So Hells Thunder or an easier to cast Hellspark Elemental should find their way in as a 4 of if not something better to ramp into.
are you supposed to sideout terminates g2?
i keep them in for anything really.
people keep telling me to.
ive never really bothered to take them out.
i mean i side in a Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs.
and if everyones taking out pulse and terminate...
they need to 2x bolt it or SGC/MotWH it..
I see where you're coming from, bolt is pretty dead against a good u/w control player ( who knows to put jace up to 5) , they're only great vs stag and master in the mirror and not as many people playing those anymore.
i think your board position and their grip
is dependent on whether jace stays at 3 or goes to 5
maybe i just missed it but
i have yet to notice a bump to 5 to avoid bolt.
if they keep jace at 3
maybe youve taken UW to the point where they
need to brainstorm for answers for your dudes.
like searching for that coup or judgement.
maybe they have the answer already,
or another jace and dont care about that first one.
its more of a toss up when they brainstorm.
basically if you apply constant pressure. your bolt is g2g.
but in my practice if they bump jace to 5.
they expect to keep control of the game at this point
or youve got a horrible board.
and theyll take advantage by screwing your topdeck.
in which case that bolt is very underwhelming.
Has anyone else had trouble with eldrazi tokens? There's a really good one in my meta and it goes off fast as hell. I can beat it but the match feels to random to me. I don't really know what to SB against it. I've considered jund charm and CtM to sweep their tokens so they don't get the mana (CtM works better bc it hits the walls too).
Just wondering what people were doing in the SB against this deck if anything.
Thanks!
i think i know what your talking about
i played a MonoG Eldrazi Ramp deck with mana walls,
if thats the case i sided in:
2 Jund Charm 3 Ruinblaster 1 Terminate and 1 Burst Lightning.
i added a little reach and aggression for the match
to beat them to the punch.
kill the walls and especially oracles. slows them down.
Jund Charm has worked wonders for me.
used the same 3 charms for 14 months.
But Consume the Meek seems like a favorite over JC.
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With this being my first post on MTGS i would first like to say hello. Also thanks to Polizei for his decklist and detailed SB tips. His list is as stated.
Ford, all those lists are on http://www.starcitygames.com today (just look on the right side, for "Standard" and they have links for top 8 for about 5 or 6 different major cities from the PTQs of 5/2/2010)
Btw, here's what I've decided on-
Ironing out my Dirty Jundies for tomorrow, I think I'll just have to take a balanced approach-
U/W/R Planeswalkers-
+4 Goblin Ruinblaster, +3 Thought Hemorrhage, +2 Duress
-4 Lightning Bolt, -3 Broodmate Dragon, -2 Terminate
(alternatively, you could keep in BD, and maybe not bring in ruinblaster)
Again, these are all suggestive, a lot of these can change based on opinion or given matchups. Just putting something out there for this weekend.
I entered a 1K tourney in WA tonight with this list. I took 8th in the swiss and 3rd after the top eight matches.
First round was polymorph. 2-1
first game I just kept the tokens down.
lost game two to a turn three poly into emrakul
game three was easy after a successful thought hemorrhage naming poly.
Second round Mythic Bant 2-1.
Game one loss, mul to 5 he had ideal hand, lame.
Sideboard doomblade and ruinblaster, forgot about consuming vapors this round for some dumb reason, i think i could have done well here.
Game two went ideal for me, a few blightnings terminates and ruinblasters for the manlands.
Game three took us almost to turns. trading card for card, Raging ravine was mvp here, and an amazing topdeck doomblade after he flops a topdeck baneslayer which i was sure would finish me. then raging ravine with 2 counters finishes him.
Third round was against Gladiators. 2-0
This deck either didnt run Spreading seas or I just never saw them. He was running Tectonic Edge though. Not sure if my strategy was spot on or I just got lucky because is simply did not play the fourth land for turns 4-7 in both of our games and had no problem with 2 and three drops finishing him with little effort, Duress was a winner for sure.
Fourth Round was against Conscripton. 0-2
Great player he took 4th overall. I hadnt had much experience with the conscription deck. Wasnt too sure of sideboarding etc.
Fifth round was Gladiators again. 1-2
This time it was a different story. Better player, Spreading seas suck. I learned alot about the deck this time though. Save the Doom Blades and Terminates for Gideon. Pulses and Thought Hemorrhages for Elspeth, Swing into the mindsculptor and Vengent. This is the player I will play in top 8.
Sixth round was Conscription again. 2-0
I know this player very will so I know the play style to my advantage. Did not show any reserve which is bad when you know the player has pulses.
The second game he was mana screwed, but ill still take it for a win.
First round top 8. The Gladiator player from round 5. 2-1
With the new insight to his deck i felt better prepared. I reserved the kills for Gideon and the pulses for the other walkers. although never got off a hemorrhage. But what won me the game was Consuming Vapors. I owe my winnings to this card. I dont know what made me choose this in a mostly planeswalker deck but I knew the wall of Omens could be a good life swing after resolving this beauty. Wall of Denial was his sideboard of choice for jund. It felt soo good to gain 8 life from a sac'd WoD, Which then allowed me to swing in for the win. He was so sure of himself after the wall hit the field.
Second round top 8. Mythic Bant. 0-2
Game one. t2 spreading seas, t3 spreading seas:mad:, sitting on two swamps and two other lands that produce blue, yay!
Game two, I play first - swamp - duress- remove the ONLY seas in his hand, i think sweet maybe i can pull this one off. T2 raging ravine, pass. He top decks a Spreading Seas, f--k my life, then mindsculptor keeps any worthwhile lands off the top, elspeth + knight of the reliquary = loss.
Except that they are a bit limited in effect against blue/white control (one of the bigger competitors in popularity at the moment), which is why pulse is usually split between main and sideboard.
On the note of Jund Hackblades, while I haven't tested them in my competitive Jund build I loved them in my casual deck. Cast Bloodbraid Elf and hit it, have two 3/2 hasters to swing with, which is always solid if you end of turn jund charm before it to sweep the way for them to run in. Still, not sure I would test them competitively.
Also have to agree on the note of Goblin Guide, once you consider Blightning's strengths. And it seems that build lacks some of Junds traditional strengths, noting the full list of terminates (uncommon in most builds even including sideboard) & pulses maindecked (seems like the deck spends a good deal of time removing creatures, poor reaction to control). So Hells Thunder or an easier to cast Hellspark Elemental should find their way in as a 4 of if not something better to ramp into.
Baneslayer angel, Jace, Gideon, Firewalker, ajani if they are splashing, spreading seas, etc.
unfortunately i just managed to topdeck it a very unlikely situation where control has 0 cards in hand.. and they topdecked a BSA to save the match.
That being said, they will usually have cards, and for 1 mana duress has helped me out countless more times than its hurt.
Like someone else said it can hit just about everything in their deck, from the large amount of planeswalkers, to counters, to spreading seas etc.
Ryan's debut for his new MBC deck, and since we had good enough records we were able to ID into the top 8 so we could get a chance to play with the foil shards of alara block packs. We played our round for fun anyway (including sideboards) and I'm able to take the match in 3 games. Game 1 I lost, an embarrassing blowout as he played 3 consuming vapors, tendrils, gatekeepers, and overall just blew me out. Games 2 and 3 I was able to load the board with multiple cobras, multiple bloodbraids, and just developed too big an army. Monument got sided out, as it's horrible against vapors and gatekeeper. Thought Hemorrhage was awesome in our third match - he played Liliana, and immediately tutors. I look at my board, and I think, he's gotta be going for consume the meek. I hemorrhage him for it, and sure enough the top card of his library is consume the meek and I'm able to dig in there and get the second out too. I overwhelm him shortly after. I will say though, he played haunting echoes in game 1 and game 3, and in both games it was RIDICULOUS. In game 1, he ripped every single card out of my deck except for Bloodbraid, pulse, and some various land. That card is obscene and I think more black players need to rep-respect.
Gratz on the finish, and would be very interested if you could pm any more info on his MBC
I believe that Sarkhan could have his advantages, I think that based on your list your testing results will be a bit off. First, you are only running 23 land I take it? The normal is 25-27. Also you have no ramp/mana accel in your 60. I would suggest including a few slots for that as well. That being said, I personally couldn't make a case for running all three. Perhaps 1-2 would be the best route to take. Hope any of this helps.
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It had a lot to do with why both me and another Jund player Top 8ed the MMS in Det.
They don't always have seas on T2 and you shouldn't be keeping a hand that folds to it regardless. Most of the time Trace functions as a better growth, but sometimes it can be like Explore in that it can't be counted as a land.
Post Trace they can no longer Seas your land or Tectonic Edge it. Trace on a Ravine can be game over for UW variants or decks in general since they can't kill your 5/5+. This stuff has been repeated a countless numner of times and its not worth going into depth any further.
I have played with it for months and have had good results with it so with that reasoning we will never know if its good or not...
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Like I told the other guy. If you dont like it, then dont use it. Me I like to go out on a limb and try new things. So if you think your deck is fine the way it is, then dont change anything or listen to anyone else's ideas.
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These responses are fairly obnoxious. You came here to post a new idea for the community. People don't like it for good reasons x, y, and z. Saying if you don't like it then don't use it don't add anything to the discussion and instead of telling people to basically go away you need to reason out your arguments a lot better and have in depth game analysis examples of when it was good. You posting a thread for a new idea in a strong archtype is you against the world and if you don't want to explain in more depth why it is competitive then this is a huge waste of time. Without that this is probably just another bad noncompetitive thread.
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I may or may not disagree with you, but why don't you give reasoning instead of straight bashing. in certain builds it might be amazing.
Read UR Rites (currently 33-9-2 in FNM, 25-6 in MWS Testing.)
got my Playset of FNM Bloodbraids. I is Happy.
Because the newest deck in town is UWR walkers, and pinging planeswalkers for one instead of three or four is a horrible strategy. Gideon grows by +2'ing a Tuk Tuk every turn. Any other creature in Jund will eventually kill him.
no no no. I have to disagree with this. Jund's biggest problem is not walls, its an online jace!! With a counter backup for your maelstrome pulse or blightning.
Before you give judgments on my judgments of your judgments, you should consider that I HAVE playtested against Planeswalkers (proxies, but it's good enough). Why else would I make the post stating that Duress is good against ALL control if I have not played against ALL control? And btw, the comments about all control were factual: the Planeswalker deck runs almost all the same spells as other control (UW tapout), the only difference is it runs a higher quantity of planeswalkers as it's win condition, less removal, and no creatures other than walls. This does NOT make the deck play that different from other control, it just means your threats are planeswalkers instead of Baneslayer Angels... again Duress works just as well against all types of control hence my comments on ALL control. It was fairly obvious the first read through - but I hope that was explicit enough for you.
While I have not played 50 matches against the deck (seriously, playing 50 games against ONE DECK in under one week might show signs that you have nothing else to do in life but play Magic, but ok lol) I have played enough to tell that it functions quite similar to UW (admittedly more powerful though). Just a heads up the two decks have around 70% of the same cards, so saying they play nothing alike is pretty dumb, but let me elaborate.
You refer to Wall of Omens and Seas as if UW doesn't have these cards, or that the fact that their deck has less removal and more planeswalkers somehow drastically reduces the power of Duress (it actually strengthens it). UW and Planeswalker both run 3-4 of each of Wall of Omens and Seas, so their ability to slow you down is no different. What IS different is that the Planeswalker deck sets up a much more difficult board position in the turns where you are potentially stalled. You know what is great about Duress, you can play it for one mana (easiest casting cost of any card in Jund - which is very valid against Seas decks) and take away their best card in hand for setting up said lock. Again, what other card does that?
It's really just pointless to reply to someone that played 50 matches against an archetype and STILL can't see how good Duress is... so I'm just going to leave what I have said for the benefit of Jund players who aren't prone to handicapping themselves against a matchup - since you obviously are.
Duress is the best answer in the format to Planeswalkers. Well unless you want to start using cards in your board that are dead against other matchups. Pithing Needle is amazing against a lot of decks running planeswalkers but you can't bring it in versus most combo and RDW like you can with Duress.
I'll stick with running a combination of Vapors, Duress, and Malakir Bloodwitch since I find these cards great against multiple matchups (particularly ones we have problems with). Maybe if you dump another 30 hours of playtesting into Jund vs. another deck you can come up with a great rebuttal?
eww.. i wouldnt touch jund hackblade with a 10 foot pole.
maybe in limited.
and try goblin guide on that mana base.
its less effective after t1.
and 4 pulse? thats much.
i agree with what was said before about burst lightning.
more reach in your removal is stellar.
i would do hells thunder.
but no bit.blasts.
cascade + sac at EOT = poor CA.
or plated geopede with appropriate fetches.
Standard:
:symb::symu: Monoblack Devotion (W/ Notion Thief)
Previous Standards:
:symg::symr::symb::symw: Darthsaber
:symg::symw::symr: Naya Midrange
:symg::symw::symr: Naya Pod
:symg::symw::symr: GWr Caw Blade
:symg::symr::symb: Jund
:symu::symw: Merfolk
My Cube
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7854834#post7854834
sometimes after a slew of PWs they hit blanks for a while.
i witnessed multiple games that do so.
get rid of elsbeth and gideon and youre gold.
and t2 putrid is the best thing for you.
path will help you regain ground.
multiple times i found a borderland ranger beating face.
terminating duders that get in the way.
and a few blightning gets you a long way.
mind rot in the side is
strongly suggested for UWR heavy meta.
i dont thing they side in negate
so mind rot can make it through flashfreeze.
Standard:
:symb::symu: Monoblack Devotion (W/ Notion Thief)
Previous Standards:
:symg::symr::symb::symw: Darthsaber
:symg::symw::symr: Naya Midrange
:symg::symw::symr: Naya Pod
:symg::symw::symr: GWr Caw Blade
:symg::symr::symb: Jund
:symu::symw: Merfolk
My Cube
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7854834#post7854834
where rampants mana fix is limited to the one color.
trace lets you play terminates and leeches with the same mana.
its harder to lock you out of a color..
Standard:
:symb::symu: Monoblack Devotion (W/ Notion Thief)
Previous Standards:
:symg::symr::symb::symw: Darthsaber
:symg::symw::symr: Naya Midrange
:symg::symw::symr: Naya Pod
:symg::symw::symr: GWr Caw Blade
:symg::symr::symb: Jund
:symu::symw: Merfolk
My Cube
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7854834#post7854834
Then it's all about the T2 Putrid Leach or Trace of Abundance on Raging Ravine.
Then it's all about the T3 Sprouting Thrinax / Bloodbriad Elf~ Blightning
Oh yeah!
I don't know about all this Pithing Needle funny buisness, as they can still gain counters, O-ring the needle, then ultimate.
And what's this I hear about people not using Bitunimous Blast anymore? What what what??!?
This match isn't unwinnable.
Tournament: Misty Mountain Rise of Standard Tourney
Players: 22
Format: 5 Rounds of Swiss, then cut to top 8 for an all-foil shards of alara block draft.
Final Place: 5th in Swiss (3-1-1, technically 4-1 but ID for top 8), 3rd in top 8.
Decklist-
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Putrid Leech
4 Sprouting Thrinax
3 Master of the Wild Hunt
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Ruinblaster
Spells (11)
4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Eldrazi Monument
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Savage Lands
3 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Raging Ravine
2 Rootbound Crag
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
3 Consuming Vapors
3 Doomblade
2 Goblin Ruinblaster
2 Grim Discovery
2 Duress
2 Thought Hemorrhage
1 Terminate
This tournament was a lot of fun. We played 5 rounds of swiss and just about every deck in standard had some representation among the 22 players in the room, along with a lot of people trying out new tech. BK (Brian Kowal) was playing, along with a lot of other local good players Jasper Epstein, Ben Rasmussen, our crew, and then some regulars from the shop.
Here's my recap-
Round 1 Vs. Mike with homebrew U/B Control-
I felt bad for Mike for two reasons. The first was that his deck was clearly a casual home brew, and the second was that I was extremely hungover so I could barely keep my eyes open. I even had to interrupt our match to use the restroom, which was just embarrassing (especially since I was killing him on the following turn but when you gotta go you gotta go lol). Regardless, this match was over quick. The first game, I dumped my entire hand by turn 4 which consisted of something like Leech, Cobra, Thrinax, Master, etc. Mike could barely play a few tap-lands and a merfolk by the time he got run over. Game 2, I played a lot of the same, along with 2 bloodbraids, and the most he could do was peck me a few times with his creeping tar pit before I killed it with wolf tokens. That was when he decided it was probably a good idea to read Master of the Wild Hunt while it was killing him.
1-0 (2-0 games)
Round 2 Vs. Alan with Jund
Alan's build was fairly standard Jund, so this was going to be the first time I could see if this Eldrazi version seemed to have an edge. It did seem good, as I had an early lotus cobra that he did not kill and that allowed me to get the attrition war going faster. Eventually a leech and thrinax got there in game 1 after a lot of trades. Ruinblaster also helped kill a raging ravine that would have otherwise caused me serious issues. Game 2, we both play a heavy amount of guys, and I use grim discovery to return thrinax and land, trying to make best use of CA. Ultimately though, he drops multiple bloodbraids + siege gang + his own thrinaxes, and I get overrun before I can get much past 5 or 6 lands. He also had a timely ruinblaster hit here that set me back a ways. Game 3, I get off an explosive lotus cobra start that enables turn 3 and turn 5 ruinblasters, along with a smattering of other creatures and then an eldrazi monument to seal the deal.
2-0 (4-1 games)
Round 3 Vs. Ben Rasmussen with Mythic
Ah, the matchup that always makes me cringe (at least pre-board). This played out oddly. Game 1, he seems to keep a relatively stagnant hand, and despite mys low keep I use multiple bolts and a pulse to take care of 3 early mana accelerators, and also ruinblaster a land for good measure. I put down enough threats, deal with a baneslayer, and eventually he can't catch up. Games 2 and 3 I bring in 3 vapors and 3 doomblade to up my total removal count to 10 (12 if you include siege gang), but both games I fail to see even ONE removal spell. I think I mulled one of the hands too, but still no go. Thus, he gets down soverign at a point in both games and eldrazi conscription on a war monk just crushes me. I played some matches later on for fun against my buddy who was playing mythic (who ID'd for third in swiss and 5th in top 8), and he was also crushing me. This build seems vastly inferior against bant without the terminates main and the sheer amount of removal post-board.
2-1 (5-3 games)
Round 4 Vs. Mike with U/G Polymorph
Game 1 he ponders and halimar depths some, but I have a quick opener with leech, thrinax, ruinblaster, etc. I'm also able to pulse his sole token for polymorph (off a growth spasm), and eventually a Master of the Wild Hunt sticks to ensure there will be no polymorphing without a bounce. Game 2, he plays around 6-7 ponder/see beyond effects, but for some reason he draws into very little token generation and ends up with 2 dead polymorphs in hand and some lands. I don't know how he couldn't draw the nuts with all the stuff he was cycling through, but for some reason he doesn't, and the same scenario as game 1 basically plays out (albiet slower on my part). Master seems really good in this matchup if your able to control their early game.
3-1 (7-3 games)
Round 5 Vs. Ryan with Mono Black Control (MBC)
Ryan's debut for his new MBC deck, and since we had good enough records we were able to ID into the top 8 so we could get a chance to play with the foil shards of alara block packs. We played our round for fun anyway (including sideboards) and I'm able to take the match in 3 games. Game 1 I lost, an embarrassing blowout as he played 3 consuming vapors, tendrils, gatekeepers, and overall just blew me out. Games 2 and 3 I was able to load the board with multiple cobras, multiple bloodbraids, and just developed too big an army. Monument got sided out, as it's horrible against vapors and gatekeeper. Thought Hemorrhage was awesome in our third match - he played Liliana, and immediately tutors. I look at my board, and I think, he's gotta be going for consume the meek. I hemorrhage him for it, and sure enough the top card of his library is consume the meek and I'm able to dig in there and get the second out too. I overwhelm him shortly after. I will say though, he played haunting echoes in game 1 and game 3, and in both games it was RIDICULOUS. In game 1, he ripped every single card out of my deck except for Bloodbraid, pulse, and some various land. That card is obscene and I think more black players need to rep-respect.
3-1-1 (technically 4-1), (9-4 games)
TOP 8
Won't really go into match details. It was a foil shards block draft, and it was really awesome. You kept what you drafted, and 1st place got a From the Vaults: Exiled set, and 1st through 4th got a number of Rise booster packs. I ended up 3rd and got 6 packs, and during the draft I pulled a foil Ajani Vengeant and a foil Soverigns of Lost Alara. There were also a number of cool uncommon and common foils going around. Ben Rasmussen (the winner of the swiss), was the ultimate winner of the draft as well, as he had flameblast dragon and dragon broodmother and my draft deck just did not have enough answers for that business. One of our friends got 3 packs from the TO because he had to leave early, and he ripped a foil Hierach, a foil bit blast, a foil path, a foil hell's thunder, and a foil terminate. Everyone was going nuts over that heh.
I think for Jund in the future I'll probably go more traditional, or more heavy removal. I did like Monument in the mirror along with the higher creature count, and I did like running 4 Maelstrom Pulses main. Other than that, it's too funky a build. The tourney field had at least 2 U/W/R Planeswalker Control decks, 3 Mythic Conscription, 1 nutty tricked out Vampires deck with blade of the bloodchief, hideous end, and some other way lesser used vampire cards (this deck had an epic battle with mythic one game where a Malakir Bloodwitch had 10 +1/+1 counters on it), along with a smattering of every other standard deck out there.
RWU
Zedruu, the Greathearted
RGW Uril, the Miststalker
4 Putrid Leech
4 Sprouting Thrinax
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Broodmate Dragon
3 Goblin Ruinblaster
Spells (14)
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Trace of Abundance
2 Terminate
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Blightning
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
Land (26)
4 Savage Lands
4 Raging Ravine
3 Dragonskull Summit
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Rootbound Crag
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Goblin Ruinblaster
3 Duress
2 Doom Blade
3 Jund Charm
3 Consuming Vapors
3 Thought Hemorrhage
The sideboard changes all the time but this is a skeleton I suppose. Love suggestions =D
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane for this sig
Now Playing:
EDH:
Derevi, Enchantress
5C Planeswalkers (Child of Alara)
Sharuum
Narset, Enlightened Master
Ezuri Elves
The Mimeoplasm
On the note of Jund Hackblades, while I haven't tested them in my competitive Jund build I loved them in my casual deck. Cast Bloodbraid Elf and hit it, have two 3/2 hasters to swing with, which is always solid if you end of turn jund charm before it to sweep the way for them to run in. Still, not sure I would test them competitively.
Also have to agree on the note of Goblin Guide, once you consider Blightning's strengths. And it seems that build lacks some of Junds traditional strengths, noting the full list of terminates (uncommon in most builds even including sideboard) & pulses maindecked (seems like the deck spends a good deal of time removing creatures, poor reaction to control). So Hells Thunder or an easier to cast Hellspark Elemental should find their way in as a 4 of if not something better to ramp into.
i keep them in for anything really.
people keep telling me to.
ive never really bothered to take them out.
i mean i side in a Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs.
and if everyones taking out pulse and terminate...
they need to 2x bolt it or SGC/MotWH it..
Standard:
:symb::symu: Monoblack Devotion (W/ Notion Thief)
Previous Standards:
:symg::symr::symb::symw: Darthsaber
:symg::symw::symr: Naya Midrange
:symg::symw::symr: Naya Pod
:symg::symw::symr: GWr Caw Blade
:symg::symr::symb: Jund
:symu::symw: Merfolk
My Cube
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7854834#post7854834
2 Garruk, Wildspeaker
4 Putrid Leech
4 Sprouting Thrinax
2 Terminate
3 Master of the Wild Hunt
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Eldrazi Monument
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Savage Lands
4 Raging Ravine
2 Dragonskull Summit
1 Rootbound Craig
1 LavaClaw Reaches
2 Swamp
3 Mountain
3 Forest
1 Orien-Rief, The Vastwood
This is what I am running and having success with/
i think your board position and their grip
is dependent on whether jace stays at 3 or goes to 5
maybe i just missed it but
i have yet to notice a bump to 5 to avoid bolt.
if they keep jace at 3
maybe youve taken UW to the point where they
need to brainstorm for answers for your dudes.
like searching for that coup or judgement.
maybe they have the answer already,
or another jace and dont care about that first one.
its more of a toss up when they brainstorm.
basically if you apply constant pressure. your bolt is g2g.
but in my practice if they bump jace to 5.
they expect to keep control of the game at this point
or youve got a horrible board.
and theyll take advantage by screwing your topdeck.
in which case that bolt is very underwhelming.
Standard:
:symb::symu: Monoblack Devotion (W/ Notion Thief)
Previous Standards:
:symg::symr::symb::symw: Darthsaber
:symg::symw::symr: Naya Midrange
:symg::symw::symr: Naya Pod
:symg::symw::symr: GWr Caw Blade
:symg::symr::symb: Jund
:symu::symw: Merfolk
My Cube
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7854834#post7854834
i think i know what your talking about
i played a MonoG Eldrazi Ramp deck with mana walls,
if thats the case i sided in:
2 Jund Charm 3 Ruinblaster 1 Terminate and 1 Burst Lightning.
i added a little reach and aggression for the match
to beat them to the punch.
kill the walls and especially oracles. slows them down.
Jund Charm has worked wonders for me.
used the same 3 charms for 14 months.
But Consume the Meek seems like a favorite over JC.
Standard:
:symb::symu: Monoblack Devotion (W/ Notion Thief)
Previous Standards:
:symg::symr::symb::symw: Darthsaber
:symg::symw::symr: Naya Midrange
:symg::symw::symr: Naya Pod
:symg::symw::symr: GWr Caw Blade
:symg::symr::symb: Jund
:symu::symw: Merfolk
My Cube
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7854834#post7854834
I entered a 1K tourney in WA tonight with this list. I took 8th in the swiss and 3rd after the top eight matches.
First round was polymorph. 2-1
first game I just kept the tokens down.
lost game two to a turn three poly into emrakul
game three was easy after a successful thought hemorrhage naming poly.
Second round Mythic Bant 2-1.
Game one loss, mul to 5 he had ideal hand, lame.
Sideboard doomblade and ruinblaster, forgot about consuming vapors this round for some dumb reason, i think i could have done well here.
Game two went ideal for me, a few blightnings terminates and ruinblasters for the manlands.
Game three took us almost to turns. trading card for card, Raging ravine was mvp here, and an amazing topdeck doomblade after he flops a topdeck baneslayer which i was sure would finish me. then raging ravine with 2 counters finishes him.
Third round was against Gladiators. 2-0
This deck either didnt run Spreading seas or I just never saw them. He was running Tectonic Edge though. Not sure if my strategy was spot on or I just got lucky because is simply did not play the fourth land for turns 4-7 in both of our games and had no problem with 2 and three drops finishing him with little effort, Duress was a winner for sure.
Fourth Round was against Conscripton. 0-2
Great player he took 4th overall. I hadnt had much experience with the conscription deck. Wasnt too sure of sideboarding etc.
Fifth round was Gladiators again. 1-2
This time it was a different story. Better player, Spreading seas suck. I learned alot about the deck this time though. Save the Doom Blades and Terminates for Gideon. Pulses and Thought Hemorrhages for Elspeth, Swing into the mindsculptor and Vengent. This is the player I will play in top 8.
Sixth round was Conscription again. 2-0
I know this player very will so I know the play style to my advantage. Did not show any reserve which is bad when you know the player has pulses.
The second game he was mana screwed, but ill still take it for a win.
First round top 8. The Gladiator player from round 5. 2-1
With the new insight to his deck i felt better prepared. I reserved the kills for Gideon and the pulses for the other walkers. although never got off a hemorrhage. But what won me the game was Consuming Vapors. I owe my winnings to this card. I dont know what made me choose this in a mostly planeswalker deck but I knew the wall of Omens could be a good life swing after resolving this beauty. Wall of Denial was his sideboard of choice for jund. It felt soo good to gain 8 life from a sac'd WoD, Which then allowed me to swing in for the win. He was so sure of himself after the wall hit the field.
Second round top 8. Mythic Bant. 0-2
Game one. t2 spreading seas, t3 spreading seas:mad:, sitting on two swamps and two other lands that produce blue, yay!
Game two, I play first - swamp - duress- remove the ONLY seas in his hand, i think sweet maybe i can pull this one off. T2 raging ravine, pass. He top decks a Spreading Seas, f--k my life, then mindsculptor keeps any worthwhile lands off the top, elspeth + knight of the reliquary = loss.
WUBSharuumBUW
GGGOmnathGGG
RRRKiki-JikiRRR
WUBZur the "I wanna play the longest game ever" EnchanterBUW
Baneslayer angel, Jace, Gideon, Firewalker, ajani if they are splashing, spreading seas, etc.
I do agree 4 terminates+4pulses is too much.
Not really trading atm
BRVamps
unfortunately i just managed to topdeck it a very unlikely situation where control has 0 cards in hand.. and they topdecked a BSA to save the match.
That being said, they will usually have cards, and for 1 mana duress has helped me out countless more times than its hurt.
Like someone else said it can hit just about everything in their deck, from the large amount of planeswalkers, to counters, to spreading seas etc.
Not really trading atm
BRVamps
Gratz on the finish, and would be very interested if you could pm any more info on his MBC