This entire thread is a primer + basic strategy guide to the most dominant deck in standard: Jund. This thread will be updated as often as possible, help by the moderators in maintenance is all for the better.
Q:What is Jund exactly?
A: According to the lore, Jund is a shard in the plane of Alara. The plane consists of three primary sources of mana, the aligned colors are :symg::symr::symb:. In the competitive tournament scene, Jund is referred to as a aggressive+control mid-ranged deck. This means that mid-game you will have the most affective cards to turn the tides in your favor. The decks entire concept packs a wide variety of multiple tools including: Disruption, Board Manipulation, Removal, Card Advantage, and quick lethal attacks.
Q: What is the core of the Jund deck?
A: Between all versions of Jund, there is approximately 40 cards that form the entire "Skeleton" of the build. This skeleton is as such:
Q: Why is this the skeleton?
A: This is the skeleton because of the pure tournament and testing results the deck has shown, from professional player to FNM newbie this is understood as to what makes the deck as successive as it is today, the core theme of the deck is addressed in this, and beyond here allows for a bit of room in customization.
Each core card has reasoning:
Spells Sarkhan The Mad: Results don't lie, every successful Jund deck is now running our newest Rise of the Eldrazi Planeswalker. This dragon making machine can also be a tidings in some matchups. Very versatile card.
Siege-Gang Commander: a 4 for 1 package in lovable little Goblins which can attack, ping, and defend for you. This little army introduced in the Onslaught Block has found it's home in many tournament quality Jund decks post Worldwake.
Bloodbraid Elf: One of the most readily available forms of card advantage. Cascade triggers into another threat, disruption, or removal. Once you play with her, it's hard to turn away from the power she gives you.
Sprouting Thrinax: One of the most useful creatures in the deck, fitting the curve perfectly at :symr::symb::symg:, and once it kicks the bucket, 3 more helpers come along. May not look like much, but in the game of blocking and attacking Thrinax is priceless at a 3/3.
Broodmate Dragon: The most amazing finisher available to us in the format, 2 dragons 1 spell, 4/4 flying each one. This card is just way too saucy to ever pass up.
Bituminous Blast: Dealing 4 damage, and having the same benefits Bloodbraid Elf gives us. More then just useful, it can turn the hopes of our enemies into fears with the amount of board positioning it can give the Jund player.
Lightning Bolt: The best red spell in the format. It's effeciency for is unmatchable.
Maelstrom Pulse: The most versatile removal spell in the format, targets planeswalkers, enchantments, and a swarm of tokens in one condensed package. Simply put, Maelstrom pulse is Vindicate on steroids. Who doesn't wanna play with that card?
Terminate: Our old friend from Planeshift has returned, a one time "get out of my way, I don't care who you are!" spell is more then enough to take out the major threats that decide to race against us. It handles any power and toughness, and rids of regeneration. Very useful.
Blightning: Debated as the one most powerful spell in the deck. 3 Damage that can be redirected towards planeswalkers and discarding two cards is worth more then 3 mana, but we won't complain. Blightning hurts aggro, control, and combo decks to no end. There is no other card in the deck, that can potentially win the game, and disrupt the opponent more then Blightning can.
Lands Raging Ravine: A two-color mana fixer which helps us attack as the game progresses. This new addition from worldwake gives more tools to our arsenal of offensive annoyances.
Savage Lands: Our ultimate Mana fixer, provides us with every color, it merely needs a turn to be usable.
Rootbound Craig: Our M2010 aligned mana fixer #1, provides us with 2/3 of our colors. Also has the ability to CIPU if we acquire a forest or a mountian beforehand.
Dragonskull Summit: Our M2010 aligned mana fixer #2, provides us with 2/3 of our colors. Also has the ability to CIPU if we acquire a swamp or a mountain beforehand.
Verdant Catacombs: Our Zendikar Enemy Aligned color combination. Provides us with a one shot deal of acquiring forests or swamps, this can also help us play out future turns with Dragonskull Summit, and Rootbound Craig to full effectiveness.
Swamp, Mountain, Forest: Basic lands are a core need for most decks in Magic, we are no exception.
Q: Why should you play Jund?
A: Jund is the top competitor in the tournament scene, with all of these tools available to you, it is very difficult if not near impossible to match the efficiency in this current standard. There will be a good number of opposing players who are trying to design their decks to specifically beat yours. As demeaning as that sounds, Jund as the top record for states as of recently, and the impact of the newest standard set (Worldwake) doesn't seem to be a damper in the path of this decks success. The variations Jund takes gives it a large amount of adaptability to both opposing control and aggro decks.
Q: What do sideboards look like for this kind of deck?
A: We have a large variety of choices in our colors, this is a really good profitable area to get an extra edge on your metagame choices. Here are the most popular and effective options according to personal, and states tournament results:
Creature Sideboard Material Great Sable Stag: The best choice against Black and Blue decks, being uncounterable and has the ability to race most control decks by passing such cards as Wall of Denial.
Goblin Ruinblaster: A 2 for 1 package of land destruction and haste. The amount of disruption this guy creates can be priceless, but against mono colored decks, it can be useless.
Malakir Bloodwitch: With the rise of White Aggro decks forming, Jund has adopted a few vampires to the arsenal in Zendikar. This one particularly has the ability to raise your life total, and stop those pesky Celestial Purge and Baneslayer Angel in one simple package.
Borderland Ranger: Used in some Jund decks as a method of avoiding Spread'em to raise specified color land drops
Consuming Vapors: Used in some Jund decks as a method to destroy creatures with Shroud
Master of the Wild Hunt: Used in the sideboard to vary threats and manipulate board position against other decks with low amounts of removal.
Vampire Nighthawk: The compressed ability of Deathtouch and Lifelink makes this creature considerable against decks such as Boros/RDW, and has nice Synergy with Malakir Bloodwitch
Spell Sideboard Material Prophetic Prism: Helps the common fight against Spreading Seas and other blue based control variants from destroying our fragile manabase.
Dragon's Claw: Used as a method to win races against Red Deck Wins.
Thought Hemorrhage: Cripples the opponents deck is used properly. Can create openings for disrupting a win condition, a sideboard '2 of'
Duress: Used against decks packing removal, mainly against control. Learning valuable information turn 1 can create optimal plays.
Mind Rot: Players refer to mind rot as Blightning #5-8, the two for 1 advantage theme is not disrupted here.
Terminate: Used to increase the number of terminates maindeck against decks packing efficient strong creatures at a quick rate.
Maelstrom Pulse: Used for increased versatile removal, rids of any non-land permanent from Planeswalkers to Enchantments.
Jund Charm: #1 Sideboard card, can be used as graveyard hate, a sweeper, and a permanent two-third's of a giant growth. A sideboard 3 of, bare minimum.
Harrow: In heavy Spread'em formats, some players prefer to use Harrow over Borderland Ranger to increase land count.
Grim Discovery: Sometimes used in the mirror match as 'Anti Blightning' 'Anti Ruinblaster'
Deathmark: Specified removal against the rising increase of White and Green creature based decks.
Q:How do I choose my sideboard?
A: Evaluate yourself, and your deck-list. Make sure you can cover as many weaknesses without losing consistency (Meaning don't have 1 of each card in your sideboard to have a total of 15 different cards). Evaluate your meta-game as well, what match-ups are you most likely to see? Once you gain experience with the deck, you will begin to understand not only how to sideboard, but what to sideboard out. Note, that after you have fine tuned your main deck list, your sideboard will most likely take twice as long to get a good amount of results. Games 2 and 3 are dependent on your strategies of side-boarding.
Match-Up Analysis
This section details our most commonly met up rivals in the tournament scene that is known to us. This gives us basic strategies against common decklists, and a good generalization of what to expect from your opponents.
Comments on win percentages based on testing and tournament results Good:~70% Fair:~60% Coin Flip:~50% Bad:~40%
White Weenie Aggro: (Good to Fair) A new rival recently showing up in MTGO(Magic the Gathering Online) which uses fast threats and various protection colors. Be wary of the alpha strike via Brave the Elements.
Strategy: Use removal asap, preserve your life total, and become a control deck. Use your arsenal of Green, Black, and Red to vary colors threats when combat engages. Sideboard suggestions: Malakir Bloodwitch, Jund Charm, Burst Lightning, Maelstrom Pulse. Valakut Ramp: (Fair)
This deck essentially goes into a combo Via Valakut, The Molten Pinnacle. If you are not the aggressor you will get rolled. Strategy: Be aggressive, draw bolts onto Leech to preserve your life total, play the poker game and overextend. They reliably use defence in the forms of BBE and SGC. Post SB should be a joke, Ruinblaster and more disruption is your best bet. Sideboard suggestions: Burst Lightning, Maelstrom Pulse, Goblin Ruinblaster, Mind Rot. Jund: (Coin Flip) Strategy: Get lucky, and deal the most damage you possible can with the most card advantage available. Don't get put up in a standstill where two massive board positions just wait until the first person makes the move. Playing Thrinax and Blightning are an early game must. Sideboard suggestions: Goblin Ruinblaster, Mind Rot. Grixis Control: (Good) Strategy: Play aggressively, pressure them into making moves they normally would not want to occur in order to survive. Mind Rot/Blightning at the opportune times. Force them quickly, or never at all. Once a Cruel Ultimatum resolves, it's hard to come back. Sideboard suggestions: Goblin Ruinblaster, Mind Rot, Thought Hemorrhage, Duress .
RWU Superfriends: (Fair) Strategy: Disrupt them from being effective. Planeswalkers in multiple begin to hurt, Maelstrom Pulse can only do so much. Play effective creatures from your sideboard and keep them on their toes. Going first is a real advantage game 1. So be careful. Sideboard suggestions: Malakir Bloodwitch, Burst Lightning, Maelstrom Pulse, Goblin Ruinblaster, Mind Rot. RDW: (Coin Flip - Bad) Strategy: Play defense, they will swing and hurt you the second you tap out to play defensively, bluff the lightning bolt in hand it will save you more than you know. Gaining life is a good idea, or racing effectively. Sideboard suggestions: Jund Charm, Burst Lightning, Dragon's Claw. Mono Black Vampires: (Good - Fair) Strategy: Make sure they never alpha strike VIA Vampire Nocturnus, a few of those hits and your out. Bolt the Nighthawks, and Terminate the Bloodwitch/Nocturnus. Sideboard suggestions: Jund Charm, Maelstrom Pulse, Terminate, Great Sable Stag. Junk: (Good) Strategy: Beat them down before they beat you. Letting Knight of the Reliquary rid of summoning sickness is bad news. They will filter their deck, and gain more threats. Pressure them as soon as possible or the late game looks meek. Sideboard suggestions: Malakir Bloodwitch, Jund Charm, Terminate, Maelstrom Pulse, Mind Rot.
Eldrazi Green: (Fair) Strategy: If this deck gets the "god draw" you may be out of luck, rid of their token producers before Eldrazi hits the table. Thought Hemorrhage and Maelstrom Pulse is a good friend in this matchup. Sideboard suggestions: Maelstrom Pulse, Goblin Ruinblaster, Mind Rot, Thought Hemorrhage. GW Tokens: (Fair) Strategy: Play Aggro, force trades, and disrupt him as best you can while controlling the token producers. Master of the Wild Hunt, Elspeth, and Conquerors Pledge are all cards to be fearing. Sideboard suggestions: Malakir Bloodwitch, Jund Charm, Maelstrom Pulse. BorosBushwacker: (Fair) Strategy: Stay alive, play the control deck, react to his movements, and never tap out! You WILL be punished for doing so. Sideboard a good amount of cheap steady removal, and keep on your toes. Sideboard suggestions: Malakir Bloodwitch, Jund Charm, Burst Lightning, Terminate (if you suspect BSA). Boss Naya Aggro: (Fair) Strategy: Play defensively and strike whenever an opening occurs. Rid the Knight of the Reliquary quickly, or your card advantage will soon be lost. Rid of the mana accelerators as well, their manabase seems to be shaky so siding in Ruinblasters are a good idea. Do not mind the equipment as much as you would threats, you can easily outrace them if done properly. Sideboard suggestions:Malakir Bloodwitch, Maelstrom Pulse, Goblin Ruinblaster, Mind Rot, Pithing Needle, Deathmark.
Next Level Bant: (Coin Flip-Fair) Strategy: Play defensively, but race when you start noticing opportunities. Vengevine hate really shines against them post SB, it is their engine towards card advantage along with a whole suite of planeswalkers. Mistakes punish you here more then any other matchup. Sideboard Suggestions: Deathmark, Forked Bolt, Doom Blade.
UW Tapout Control: (Fair) Strategy: Disruption is the key, play to win, and play aggressively. Their card advantage comes in the form of Martial Coup, Planeswalkers, and the cantrips (Spreading Seas, Wall of Omens) Sideboard Suggestions: Duress, Doom Blade, Goblin Ruinblaster, Pithing Needle.
Mythic Conscription Bant: (Coin Flip) Strategy: Beware Sovereigns of Lost Alara, nuke out the acceleration and race. It's very difficult to win against these guys flat out at any specific point in time. Critical Math helps out in this scenario, do not be afraid to go to low life totals if you have spot removal. Sideboard Suggestions: Deathmark, Forked Bolt, Doom Blade.
Polymorph Emrakul: Strategy: Nuke the heck out of the polymorph target, or have a really really good back up plan. Sideboard Suggestions: Terminate, Doom Blade, Consuming Vapors.
Where are your tournament results from? FNM should not matter as I have an over 90% win percentage with my build as well. Unfortunately it hasn't been standard ptq season in a while though
Also, I'm not sure why Master of the Wild Hunt is listed as a possible SB card? If you don't MD why would you ever put it in your SB?
Where are your tournament results from? FNM should not matter as I have an over 90% win percentage with my build as well. Unfortunately it hasn't been standard ptq season in a while though
Also, I'm not sure why Master of the Wild Hunt is listed as a possible SB card? If you don't MD why would you ever put it in your SB?
Your first statement: the answer is a combination of states, provincials, and mainly online with some consistent FNMs. I personally discount the decks that did nothing.
Your second question: good question, I merely searched sideboard material on various sites with decks that had profound results. A decent number had Master of the Wild Hunt in them, although not strikingly high, but was on par with the results Deathmark, and Borderland Ranger output, so I believe it was unfair to leave him out even though I personally agree with you. I can't say more then that.
I think it would be really useful for people approaching this deck for the first time to have a brief analysis of the core cards and why (in terms of game theory) they are so good. I think its really useful to describe why a T4 Bloodbraid into Blightning is so backbreaking. Or why Thrinax is so clutch against sweeper (and removal in general). That sort of thing. If you would like help, I would be more than happy to contribute to the writing.
I would consider adding matchups info to this primer.
I agree with you, and it's not like I do not have the time to type such things, but to test with such an extensive new meta evolving, it may be a moot point at this point in time. We see online the new mass of WW arising, and more and more people plopping hundreds of dollars on the new Jace to test out more and more control decks. We have no idea atm how to adopt our new sideboards and maindecks in order to compete with full effectiveness. Besides, I definitely don't wanna give people wrong ideas
I think it would be really useful for people approaching this deck for the first time to have a brief analysis of the core cards and why (in terms of game theory) they are so good. I think its really useful to describe why a T4 Bloodbraid into Blightning is so backbreaking. Or why Thrinax is so clutch against sweeper (and removal in general). That sort of thing. If you would like help, I would be more than happy to contribute to the writing.
i agree with thid post in respect to explaining the core cards deltas.. im a new jund player myself and i would find something to that affect immensely helpful!
i agree with post in respect to explaining the core cards deltas.. im a new jund player myself and i would find something to that affect immensely helpful!
Well, we can diverge into two paths atm:
1) I tell everyone how to play the deck and how I play each card, then we get people saying otherwise based on their experiences.
2) I give a nice laid out general synopsis, and the people who are dedicated enough with that information provided actually play the deck and learn for themselves.
Honestly, #2 is a lot less controversial, more effective, easier read, and you get to have all the fun! What the proper block/attack/plays/card effectiveness/cascades are always dependent on the situation. I will never be able to post something that covers all these grounds, so I won't pretend I'm superman. I'll show you the yellow brick road, and tell you how much longer you have to go.
This primer is meant for a good introduction, and honestly right now what we do need is match-up analysis, nothing more at present. With me at the moment only giving tournament reports, and no standard events with any major notability since the release of Worldwake. We got nothing.
Well, we can diverge into two paths atm:
1) I tell everyone how to play the deck and how I play each card, then we get people saying otherwise based on their experiences.
2) I give a nice laid out general synopsis, and the people who are dedicated enough with that information provided actually play the deck and learn for themselves.
Honestly, #2 is a lot less controversial, more effective, easier read, and you get to have all the fun! What the proper block/attack/plays/card effectiveness/cascades are always dependent on the situation. I will never be able to post something that covers all these grounds, so I won't pretend I'm superman. I'll show you the yellow brick road, and tell you how much longer you have to go.
This primer is meant for a good introduction, and honestly right now what we do need is match-up analysis, nothing more at present. With me at the moment only giving tournament reports, and no standard events with any major notability since the release of Worldwake. We got nothing.
Absolutely. I agree with this. I don't think specific match ups and specific plays is what should be listed, but just generally why a card is used.
For example:
Thrinax creates huge problems due to it partly replaces itself. Removal that sends it to the graveyard is less effective and it survives wrath effects. Generally opponents must spend two cards to get rid of it (card advantage).
Blightning is a monster because it provides both tempo and card advantage. While you could just Mind Rot to achieve the same card advantage, you lose tempo due to choosing not to play a creature or direct damage spell. If you manage to go T3, T4 Blightning they are at a minimum of 14 life and down 4 cards. If you manage to T3 Blightning, T4 Bloodbraid Elf into Blightning and hit your opponent with BBE, they are at a minimum of 11 life, down 4 cards and have to deal with 1 three power creature on the board. It is very difficult for an opponent to come back from that.
Anyways, I am trying to illustrate that it would be useful to explain the general use for specific cards, how they interact with other cards generally used by Jund, and why they are so effective. This mixed with a little Magic theory could be very useful for people just introduced to Jund.
I' confuzzled you listed dragon's claw as a possible sideboard card and then decline to put it in the list vs RDW which is it's reason for being a SB card.
I' confuzzled you listed dragon's claw as a possible sideboard card and then decline to put it in the list vs RDW which is it's reason for being a SB card.
I cannot accept that you went 47-5 in legitimate tournaments with this deck, as even basic draw/mana inconsistency ought to have cost you more games. You are not the best player on earth, and unless you're super generously padding the results with fnm testing...
I cannot accept that you went 47-5 in legitimate tournaments with this deck, as even basic draw/mana inconsistency ought to have cost you more games. You are not the best player on earth, and unless you're super generously padding the results with fnm testing...
Yea, I stopped reading after I saw that. It's beyond me why this is a sticky.
I cannot accept that you went 47-5 in legitimate tournaments with this deck, as even basic draw/mana inconsistency ought to have cost you more games. You are not the best player on earth, and unless you're super generously padding the results with fnm testing...
My results are from matches, not games. My rating online and RL can prove this over the past 4 months. I'm not a pro, but I'm one of the climbing members in my province. I've placed first with 5-0's (7-9 times since I recorded the matchups?), and had good tie breakers at 4-1's and 3-1's at FNMs. Online on average I do 3-1, which I play less often.
This is my testing results, and my tournament results. If you don't wanna agree with what I have done then go forth and believe what you will. As time goes on I will update my results with said decklist, right now I am doing rampant jund, and having a whole lot more effectiveness with this gauntlet.
I hope this sort of post is allowed in this thread; if not, please delete.
Shmanka, THANK YOU for this thread!! Your posting of the "skeleton" is immensely helpful to me. Your suggestions for customization options for the remaining 16 cards, along with the reasoning behind them, is also exactly what I've been looking for.
I've been considering starting a thread about what sideboard cards to include against what decks, but you've included that, too, in one convenient place.
This sort of stickied thread, a "Primer," is EXACTLY what I need. Kudos to you, and please keep up the good work!
My results are from matches, not games. My rating online and RL can prove this over the past 4 months. I'm not a pro, but I'm one of the climbing members in my province. I've placed first with 5-0's (7-9 times since I recorded the matchups?), and had good tie breakers at 4-1's and 3-1's at FNMs. Online on average I do 3-1, which I play less often.
This is my testing results, and my tournament results. If you don't wanna agree with what I have done then go forth and believe what you will. As time goes on I will update my results with said decklist, right now I am doing rampant jund, and having a whole lot more effectiveness with this gauntlet.
I realize its matches. You should have lost enough games to cost you more matches to being outplayed/making small mistakes/luck. I cannot believe you did this well. It is simply beyond the realm of possiblity.
I'm not going to say these results are fake, nor am I going to say I believe they are real, but he is counting FNM. I have been to some FNM's where everyone is 8-16 years old playing really bad decks. I mean, I could probably pull out a handful of 35-37 cards at random, get the proper basic lands needed, and then go 4-0 every week with the deck. If these results are indeed real, which I'm not saying they are or are not, then I'm guessing he plays at a shop like the kind I mentioned. 47-5 at a legit shop and at legit tournaments would put you at an elite level.
You don't need to be a pro to post these numbers at fnm. I went X-0 in 3 fnms and the wwk prerelease in a row losing only 1 game before I finally lost an actual match in the 4th event, which was the release event. Then factor in lucky cascades and even a mediocre player can post good results if he is just running well.
FNMs are good for seeing if your manabase is efficient, for keeping your mind sharp in the routine of making plays so you don't go stale when it matters, and having fun. FNMs do not help you prepare for ptqs or higher level events. For those events it is about putting together a gauntlet of accomplished decks from similar high rated events and testing with very good players. That is the testing that is relevent, not FNMs and mws with random scrubs.
About the numbers: it's irrelevant. They're actually dilluting the discussion about the primer and the deck itself, there's instead an unexplainable focus on trying to figure out if the numbers are real or not.
Just delete them, OP.
And you are contributing to this discussion how exactly?
The statistics are in question because the original poster is using them to support his findings. If I write up a research paper regarding ultrasonic vocalizations in rats, for example, I am clearly writing the paper in the first place to show my findings which I evidently think are relevent and worth reading to show the community in order to advance our knowledge regarding the matter. When I write up the methods part of my paper, I need to have relevent numbers or else my findings are pointless. If the reader reads my paper and sees that I got my findings without doing t-tests or without looking at p values then he will see that my findings are pointless and be annoyed that he just wasted his time reading it.
For a more straight forward example, say John Smith posts an article for ilovemagic.com. He then reports that Vizzerdrix is insane in extended because he put it in the best deck and has an insane record at fnm. Should you blindly agree and throw vizzerdrix is every blue deck just because some random guy reported his findings? If findings are weakly supported then they need to be questioned.
btw Shmanka, in no means am I attacking you. My only point is that people in general cannot hold FNM statistics as sound proof that their deck and choices are superior to any other. Without having any significant events for standard in a while, its just one word against another so clearly no one has much to work with other than what has worked before and what seems reasonable now.
btw Shmanka, in no means am I attacking you. My only point is that people in general cannot hold FNM statistics as sound proof that their deck and choices are superior to any other.
That's exactly fine, but I agree with you, tonight I went to a standard tournament placed 3rd. I now realize I need to make a few deck changes in the SB. It's a learning experience, yet FNM at the same time is a necessary evil. Since provincials and testing with my friends, we came up with the results. What else am I suppose to do?
I asked John and CorpT if they needed a primer, it seemed like something this website actually needs. I didn't notice anyone else willing to write/work on something like this (it didn't take long, and a lot of people deem it unnecessary).
I figured "Hey, why not, I've gotten over 250 rating in the past few months. I can share what I have, I'm not afraid of revealing what I do." Besides, gives me a bit of credentials, and hopefully more testing partners.
Without having any significant events for standard in a while, its just one word against another so clearly no one has much to work with other than what has worked before and what seems reasonable now.
This is also problem #2, and I am slowly finding that some cards are seemingly useless.
The goal of this primer is to stay ahead of the metagame, this is not only things I am allowing the forum users to see, this is something CorpT and the other moderators has experimented to see how constructive/effective we can be. Now I am getting shot for helping. I don't see how that fits in, or how people are doubting when I release where I get my recent testing, because honestly, those are my only grounds.
Quote from DTrooper »
About the numbers: it's irrelevant. They're actually dilluting the discussion about the primer and the deck itself, there's instead an unexplainable focus on trying to figure out if the numbers are real or not.
Just delete them, OP.
Personally, I didn't find it irrelevant. I found it useful, as in "wow these might work for me too!" This guide is about experimenting, and those results lead to my final result of my experiments pre-WWK. If I wanted to brag, I would post my rating, give you my online acc names, and shove it in all your faces. What people are taking at face value is their own business. Honestly, it doesn't bother me at all. People get mad/doubt when other people have success all the time, but tonight when I failed, I shook my opponents hand, said "Good Game", then tried to think about how I can get better. If people don't believe in that, then the loads of information the internet is providing isn't going to help them out one bit.
I can see why people might think it's misleading, but I put it underneath for a reason, and I even mentioned what my personal success' were with the different styles. Yet everyone is taking this information as an attack, why? Want me to give you guys my DCI number so you can look up the results yourself? When I can just keep my privacy, give you the synopsis of the deal. Save yourself some experimenting time (or give you more if it takes you a while).
When I look at the entire post, and I start reading the decklist, I feel as if the decklist is the horse, and the tournament results is just the saddle. I don't see why/how this controversy started, but claiming that the results are "false" is not an excuse to remove them. I am sure that a newer player could use those results, do some testing of their own, and add to that/make changes easier. That's why I think they should stay at the moment.
Back when I tried to qualify for a PTQ, I played Atog, and almost made it. Time to test was a small essence, and I wanted success. I posted the first extended Dredge decklist afterwards. If I knew what I was going up against, and had general testing results. I could have spent 5 minutes theorizing, and had a better prepared SB.
I placed in the 32-50 bracket, out of 600 people, this was 5-6 years ago, I'm almost 23 now, and if I had a better written primer/strategy without paying more money from my pocket like you have to nowadays, I'd say the number one piece of information I would want would be results.
If you feel I am wrong about this/think I should take this piece of information off, then go ahead and just PM me. Don't degrade this thread into another E-peen fight. Cause no one is going to win.
Quote from MOKAONE »
in sideboard suggestion vs vampires deck u shouldd add great sable stag i think
Done!
Quote from Dr. Shades »
I hope this sort of post is allowed in this thread; if not, please delete.
Shmanka, THANK YOU for this thread!! Your posting of the "skeleton" is immensely helpful to me. Your suggestions for customization options for the remaining 16 cards, along with the reasoning behind them, is also exactly what I've been looking for.
I've been considering starting a thread about what sideboard cards to include against what decks, but you've included that, too, in one convenient place.
This sort of stickied thread, a "Primer," is EXACTLY what I need. Kudos to you, and please keep up the good work!
This post made this primer all worth it. Thank you for taking the time to praise my simple work. Is there anything else I am missing which could be vital? Ask your playgroup if they are learning as well and have any comments. Thanks again!
I'm not, hence strengthening my previous point - this discussion about the results is dilluting what the discussion should be about: the deck itself. That's why I call the numbers irrelevant. I am not saying they should be taken off because they can't be proven or are fake, but rather because there is a big drama around the OP's sucess when there shouldn't be any. This is a primer, meaning detailed information and an accurate discussion about a certain archetype. If results should be posted, I'd say the correct ones would be from all the big events, ranging from PTQs to Worlds, not individual ones from the OP. Only that way everyone would be satisfied.
So I should just put Reitbauer's original (and nothing to stop the rise of white decks) list, and his placement in worlds? I can agree with that to a large extent, this way testing was done, but at the same time it seems out of date (dramatically may I add).
Quote from DTrooper »
I was going to congratulate Shmanka about the primer and add some words to it myself; instead, I read through the thread, and people calling "fake!", "liar!" just enfuriated me and I ended up posting what I did. That's an example on how those numbers are making this thread worse, instead of having the effect I'm sure the OP wanted - prove the deck is good and have the reader try it himself.
I'll take this opportunity to thank Shmanka for having the initiative to write this primer. It is indeed well written and something this sub-forum desperately needed.
That's exactly what I am confused about, and this debate has gone on long enough. Thanks for your time to post your gratitude. I'll be swapping decklists. It just seems out of date, but if it makes everyone happy how can I argue?
With the recent pro tour endings, I think we have seen the birth of a new style of Jund. Right now I hear people calling it "Hybrid Jund". I will be adding this new style of playing jund which includes a lower curve, the removal of Bituminous Blast, and includes both Putrid Leech+Rampant Growth/Explore.
With the recent pro tour endings, I think we have seen the birth of a new style of Jund. Right now I hear people calling it "Hybrid Jund". I will be adding this new style of playing jund which includes a lower curve, the removal of Bituminous Blast, and includes both Putrid Leech+Rampant Growth/Explore.
Except those decklists aren't an accurate way to decide what is optimal and what is not, considering it was part draft. Most decklists played Bituminous Blast as a 2 or 3 of and almost all either played Putrid Leech or Rampant Growth. Several Jund players did better in the Standard portion that the top 2, and several scored more points, all of which played Bituminous Blast and I believe did not go hybrid. Just because the top 2 did better in the draft portion does not mean their constructed decks were optimal. You have to look at everything from this PT, not just the top 8 decklists. Proof is on Wizards.
I think if anything, it doesn't show a new kind of Jund, but that it doesn't matter if you play ramp effects or not. They were all playing Leech and Siege gang in the top 8, but 1 played 2 growth, 1 played 2 explore and 1 cut out all ramp effects entirely.
Q:What is Jund exactly?
A: According to the lore, Jund is a shard in the plane of Alara. The plane consists of three primary sources of mana, the aligned colors are :symg::symr::symb:. In the competitive tournament scene, Jund is referred to as a aggressive+control mid-ranged deck. This means that mid-game you will have the most affective cards to turn the tides in your favor. The decks entire concept packs a wide variety of multiple tools including: Disruption, Board Manipulation, Removal, Card Advantage, and quick lethal attacks.
Q: What is the core of the Jund deck?
A: Between all versions of Jund, there is approximately 40 cards that form the entire "Skeleton" of the build. This skeleton is as such:
2 Sarkhan The Mad
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Sprouting Thrinax
2 Bituminous Blast
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Terminate
4 Blightning
1 Rootbound Craig
2 Raging Ravine
3 Dragonskull Summit
4 Savage Lands
2 Swamps
2 Mountain
2 Forest
Q: Why is this the skeleton?
A: This is the skeleton because of the pure tournament and testing results the deck has shown, from professional player to FNM newbie this is understood as to what makes the deck as successive as it is today, the core theme of the deck is addressed in this, and beyond here allows for a bit of room in customization.
Each core card has reasoning:
Spells
Sarkhan The Mad: Results don't lie, every successful Jund deck is now running our newest Rise of the Eldrazi Planeswalker. This dragon making machine can also be a tidings in some matchups. Very versatile card.
Siege-Gang Commander: a 4 for 1 package in lovable little Goblins which can attack, ping, and defend for you. This little army introduced in the Onslaught Block has found it's home in many tournament quality Jund decks post Worldwake.
Bloodbraid Elf: One of the most readily available forms of card advantage. Cascade triggers into another threat, disruption, or removal. Once you play with her, it's hard to turn away from the power she gives you.
Sprouting Thrinax: One of the most useful creatures in the deck, fitting the curve perfectly at :symr::symb::symg:, and once it kicks the bucket, 3 more helpers come along. May not look like much, but in the game of blocking and attacking Thrinax is priceless at a 3/3.
Broodmate Dragon: The most amazing finisher available to us in the format, 2 dragons 1 spell, 4/4 flying each one. This card is just way too saucy to ever pass up.
Bituminous Blast: Dealing 4 damage, and having the same benefits Bloodbraid Elf gives us. More then just useful, it can turn the hopes of our enemies into fears with the amount of board positioning it can give the Jund player.
Lightning Bolt: The best red spell in the format. It's effeciency for is unmatchable.
Maelstrom Pulse: The most versatile removal spell in the format, targets planeswalkers, enchantments, and a swarm of tokens in one condensed package. Simply put, Maelstrom pulse is Vindicate on steroids. Who doesn't wanna play with that card?
Terminate: Our old friend from Planeshift has returned, a one time "get out of my way, I don't care who you are!" spell is more then enough to take out the major threats that decide to race against us. It handles any power and toughness, and rids of regeneration. Very useful.
Blightning: Debated as the one most powerful spell in the deck. 3 Damage that can be redirected towards planeswalkers and discarding two cards is worth more then 3 mana, but we won't complain. Blightning hurts aggro, control, and combo decks to no end. There is no other card in the deck, that can potentially win the game, and disrupt the opponent more then Blightning can.
Lands
Raging Ravine: A two-color mana fixer which helps us attack as the game progresses. This new addition from worldwake gives more tools to our arsenal of offensive annoyances.
Savage Lands: Our ultimate Mana fixer, provides us with every color, it merely needs a turn to be usable.
Rootbound Craig: Our M2010 aligned mana fixer #1, provides us with 2/3 of our colors. Also has the ability to CIPU if we acquire a forest or a mountian beforehand.
Dragonskull Summit: Our M2010 aligned mana fixer #2, provides us with 2/3 of our colors. Also has the ability to CIPU if we acquire a swamp or a mountain beforehand.
Verdant Catacombs: Our Zendikar Enemy Aligned color combination. Provides us with a one shot deal of acquiring forests or swamps, this can also help us play out future turns with Dragonskull Summit, and Rootbound Craig to full effectiveness.
Swamp, Mountain, Forest: Basic lands are a core need for most decks in Magic, we are no exception.
Q: Why should you play Jund?
A: Jund is the top competitor in the tournament scene, with all of these tools available to you, it is very difficult if not near impossible to match the efficiency in this current standard. There will be a good number of opposing players who are trying to design their decks to specifically beat yours. As demeaning as that sounds, Jund as the top record for states as of recently, and the impact of the newest standard set (Worldwake) doesn't seem to be a damper in the path of this decks success. The variations Jund takes gives it a large amount of adaptability to both opposing control and aggro decks.
Jund Recent Champions
Updated May 27th, 2010
4 Raging Ravine
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Mountain
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Putrid Leech
4 Sprouting Thrinax
4 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Terminate
4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Blightning
4 Bituminous Blast
2 Sarkhan The Mad
4 Goblin Ruinblaster
4 Duress
2 Doom Blade
2 Pyroclasm
1 Malakir Bloodwitch
2 Prophetic Prism
A: We have a large variety of choices in our colors, this is a really good profitable area to get an extra edge on your metagame choices. Here are the most popular and effective options according to personal, and states tournament results:
Creature Sideboard Material
Great Sable Stag: The best choice against Black and Blue decks, being uncounterable and has the ability to race most control decks by passing such cards as Wall of Denial.
Goblin Ruinblaster: A 2 for 1 package of land destruction and haste. The amount of disruption this guy creates can be priceless, but against mono colored decks, it can be useless.
Malakir Bloodwitch: With the rise of White Aggro decks forming, Jund has adopted a few vampires to the arsenal in Zendikar. This one particularly has the ability to raise your life total, and stop those pesky Celestial Purge and Baneslayer Angel in one simple package.
Borderland Ranger: Used in some Jund decks as a method of avoiding Spread'em to raise specified color land drops
Consuming Vapors: Used in some Jund decks as a method to destroy creatures with Shroud
Master of the Wild Hunt: Used in the sideboard to vary threats and manipulate board position against other decks with low amounts of removal.
Vampire Nighthawk: The compressed ability of Deathtouch and Lifelink makes this creature considerable against decks such as Boros/RDW, and has nice Synergy with Malakir Bloodwitch
Spell Sideboard Material
Prophetic Prism: Helps the common fight against Spreading Seas and other blue based control variants from destroying our fragile manabase.
Dragon's Claw: Used as a method to win races against Red Deck Wins.
Thought Hemorrhage: Cripples the opponents deck is used properly. Can create openings for disrupting a win condition, a sideboard '2 of'
Duress: Used against decks packing removal, mainly against control. Learning valuable information turn 1 can create optimal plays.
Mind Rot: Players refer to mind rot as Blightning #5-8, the two for 1 advantage theme is not disrupted here.
Terminate: Used to increase the number of terminates maindeck against decks packing efficient strong creatures at a quick rate.
Maelstrom Pulse: Used for increased versatile removal, rids of any non-land permanent from Planeswalkers to Enchantments.
Burst Lightning: Lightning Bolts #5-8, increased cheap effective removal.
Jund Charm: #1 Sideboard card, can be used as graveyard hate, a sweeper, and a permanent two-third's of a giant growth. A sideboard 3 of, bare minimum.
Harrow: In heavy Spread'em formats, some players prefer to use Harrow over Borderland Ranger to increase land count.
Grim Discovery: Sometimes used in the mirror match as 'Anti Blightning' 'Anti Ruinblaster'
Deathmark: Specified removal against the rising increase of White and Green creature based decks.
Q:How do I choose my sideboard?
A: Evaluate yourself, and your deck-list. Make sure you can cover as many weaknesses without losing consistency (Meaning don't have 1 of each card in your sideboard to have a total of 15 different cards). Evaluate your meta-game as well, what match-ups are you most likely to see? Once you gain experience with the deck, you will begin to understand not only how to sideboard, but what to sideboard out. Note, that after you have fine tuned your main deck list, your sideboard will most likely take twice as long to get a good amount of results. Games 2 and 3 are dependent on your strategies of side-boarding.
Match-Up Analysis
This section details our most commonly met up rivals in the tournament scene that is known to us. This gives us basic strategies against common decklists, and a good generalization of what to expect from your opponents.
Comments on win percentages based on testing and tournament results
Good:~70%
Fair:~60%
Coin Flip:~50%
Bad:~40%
White Weenie Aggro: (Good to Fair)
A new rival recently showing up in MTGO(Magic the Gathering Online) which uses fast threats and various protection colors. Be wary of the alpha strike via Brave the Elements.
Strategy: Use removal asap, preserve your life total, and become a control deck. Use your arsenal of Green, Black, and Red to vary colors threats when combat engages.
Sideboard suggestions: Malakir Bloodwitch, Jund Charm, Burst Lightning, Maelstrom Pulse.
Valakut Ramp: (Fair)
This deck essentially goes into a combo Via Valakut, The Molten Pinnacle. If you are not the aggressor you will get rolled.
Strategy: Be aggressive, draw bolts onto Leech to preserve your life total, play the poker game and overextend. They reliably use defence in the forms of BBE and SGC. Post SB should be a joke, Ruinblaster and more disruption is your best bet.
Sideboard suggestions: Burst Lightning, Maelstrom Pulse, Goblin Ruinblaster, Mind Rot.
Jund: (Coin Flip)
Strategy: Get lucky, and deal the most damage you possible can with the most card advantage available. Don't get put up in a standstill where two massive board positions just wait until the first person makes the move. Playing Thrinax and Blightning are an early game must.
Sideboard suggestions: Goblin Ruinblaster, Mind Rot.
Grixis Control: (Good)
Strategy: Play aggressively, pressure them into making moves they normally would not want to occur in order to survive. Mind Rot/Blightning at the opportune times. Force them quickly, or never at all. Once a Cruel Ultimatum resolves, it's hard to come back.
Sideboard suggestions: Goblin Ruinblaster, Mind Rot, Thought Hemorrhage, Duress .
RWU Superfriends: (Fair)
Strategy: Disrupt them from being effective. Planeswalkers in multiple begin to hurt, Maelstrom Pulse can only do so much. Play effective creatures from your sideboard and keep them on their toes. Going first is a real advantage game 1. So be careful.
Sideboard suggestions: Malakir Bloodwitch, Burst Lightning, Maelstrom Pulse, Goblin Ruinblaster, Mind Rot.
RDW: (Coin Flip - Bad)
Strategy: Play defense, they will swing and hurt you the second you tap out to play defensively, bluff the lightning bolt in hand it will save you more than you know. Gaining life is a good idea, or racing effectively.
Sideboard suggestions: Jund Charm, Burst Lightning, Dragon's Claw.
Mono Black Vampires: (Good - Fair)
Strategy: Make sure they never alpha strike VIA Vampire Nocturnus, a few of those hits and your out. Bolt the Nighthawks, and Terminate the Bloodwitch/Nocturnus.
Sideboard suggestions: Jund Charm, Maelstrom Pulse, Terminate, Great Sable Stag.
Junk: (Good)
Strategy: Beat them down before they beat you. Letting Knight of the Reliquary rid of summoning sickness is bad news. They will filter their deck, and gain more threats. Pressure them as soon as possible or the late game looks meek.
Sideboard suggestions: Malakir Bloodwitch, Jund Charm, Terminate, Maelstrom Pulse, Mind Rot.
Eldrazi Green: (Fair)
Strategy: If this deck gets the "god draw" you may be out of luck, rid of their token producers before Eldrazi hits the table. Thought Hemorrhage and Maelstrom Pulse is a good friend in this matchup.
Sideboard suggestions: Maelstrom Pulse, Goblin Ruinblaster, Mind Rot, Thought Hemorrhage.
GW Tokens: (Fair)
Strategy: Play Aggro, force trades, and disrupt him as best you can while controlling the token producers. Master of the Wild Hunt, Elspeth, and Conquerors Pledge are all cards to be fearing.
Sideboard suggestions: Malakir Bloodwitch, Jund Charm, Maelstrom Pulse.
BorosBushwacker: (Fair)
Strategy: Stay alive, play the control deck, react to his movements, and never tap out! You WILL be punished for doing so. Sideboard a good amount of cheap steady removal, and keep on your toes.
Sideboard suggestions: Malakir Bloodwitch, Jund Charm, Burst Lightning, Terminate (if you suspect BSA).
Boss Naya Aggro: (Fair)
Strategy: Play defensively and strike whenever an opening occurs. Rid the Knight of the Reliquary quickly, or your card advantage will soon be lost. Rid of the mana accelerators as well, their manabase seems to be shaky so siding in Ruinblasters are a good idea. Do not mind the equipment as much as you would threats, you can easily outrace them if done properly.
Sideboard suggestions:Malakir Bloodwitch, Maelstrom Pulse, Goblin Ruinblaster, Mind Rot, Pithing Needle, Deathmark.
Next Level Bant: (Coin Flip-Fair)
Strategy: Play defensively, but race when you start noticing opportunities. Vengevine hate really shines against them post SB, it is their engine towards card advantage along with a whole suite of planeswalkers. Mistakes punish you here more then any other matchup.
Sideboard Suggestions: Deathmark, Forked Bolt, Doom Blade.
UW Tapout Control: (Fair)
Strategy: Disruption is the key, play to win, and play aggressively. Their card advantage comes in the form of Martial Coup, Planeswalkers, and the cantrips (Spreading Seas, Wall of Omens)
Sideboard Suggestions: Duress, Doom Blade, Goblin Ruinblaster, Pithing Needle.
Mythic Conscription Bant: (Coin Flip)
Strategy: Beware Sovereigns of Lost Alara, nuke out the acceleration and race. It's very difficult to win against these guys flat out at any specific point in time. Critical Math helps out in this scenario, do not be afraid to go to low life totals if you have spot removal.
Sideboard Suggestions: Deathmark, Forked Bolt, Doom Blade.
Polymorph Emrakul:
Strategy: Nuke the heck out of the polymorph target, or have a really really good back up plan.
Sideboard Suggestions: Terminate, Doom Blade, Consuming Vapors.
Also, I'm not sure why Master of the Wild Hunt is listed as a possible SB card? If you don't MD why would you ever put it in your SB?
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Your first statement: the answer is a combination of states, provincials, and mainly online with some consistent FNMs. I personally discount the decks that did nothing.
Your second question: good question, I merely searched sideboard material on various sites with decks that had profound results. A decent number had Master of the Wild Hunt in them, although not strikingly high, but was on par with the results Deathmark, and Borderland Ranger output, so I believe it was unfair to leave him out even though I personally agree with you. I can't say more then that.
I agree with you, and it's not like I do not have the time to type such things, but to test with such an extensive new meta evolving, it may be a moot point at this point in time. We see online the new mass of WW arising, and more and more people plopping hundreds of dollars on the new Jace to test out more and more control decks. We have no idea atm how to adopt our new sideboards and maindecks in order to compete with full effectiveness. Besides, I definitely don't wanna give people wrong ideas
i agree with thid post in respect to explaining the core cards deltas.. im a new jund player myself and i would find something to that affect immensely helpful!
Well, we can diverge into two paths atm:
1) I tell everyone how to play the deck and how I play each card, then we get people saying otherwise based on their experiences.
2) I give a nice laid out general synopsis, and the people who are dedicated enough with that information provided actually play the deck and learn for themselves.
Honestly, #2 is a lot less controversial, more effective, easier read, and you get to have all the fun! What the proper block/attack/plays/card effectiveness/cascades are always dependent on the situation. I will never be able to post something that covers all these grounds, so I won't pretend I'm superman. I'll show you the yellow brick road, and tell you how much longer you have to go.
This primer is meant for a good introduction, and honestly right now what we do need is match-up analysis, nothing more at present. With me at the moment only giving tournament reports, and no standard events with any major notability since the release of Worldwake. We got nothing.
Absolutely. I agree with this. I don't think specific match ups and specific plays is what should be listed, but just generally why a card is used.
For example:
Thrinax creates huge problems due to it partly replaces itself. Removal that sends it to the graveyard is less effective and it survives wrath effects. Generally opponents must spend two cards to get rid of it (card advantage).
Blightning is a monster because it provides both tempo and card advantage. While you could just Mind Rot to achieve the same card advantage, you lose tempo due to choosing not to play a creature or direct damage spell. If you manage to go T3, T4 Blightning they are at a minimum of 14 life and down 4 cards. If you manage to T3 Blightning, T4 Bloodbraid Elf into Blightning and hit your opponent with BBE, they are at a minimum of 11 life, down 4 cards and have to deal with 1 three power creature on the board. It is very difficult for an opponent to come back from that.
Anyways, I am trying to illustrate that it would be useful to explain the general use for specific cards, how they interact with other cards generally used by Jund, and why they are so effective. This mixed with a little Magic theory could be very useful for people just introduced to Jund.
Yea, I stopped reading after I saw that. It's beyond me why this is a sticky.
My results are from matches, not games. My rating online and RL can prove this over the past 4 months. I'm not a pro, but I'm one of the climbing members in my province. I've placed first with 5-0's (7-9 times since I recorded the matchups?), and had good tie breakers at 4-1's and 3-1's at FNMs. Online on average I do 3-1, which I play less often.
This is my testing results, and my tournament results. If you don't wanna agree with what I have done then go forth and believe what you will. As time goes on I will update my results with said decklist, right now I am doing rampant jund, and having a whole lot more effectiveness with this gauntlet.
Shmanka, THANK YOU for this thread!! Your posting of the "skeleton" is immensely helpful to me. Your suggestions for customization options for the remaining 16 cards, along with the reasoning behind them, is also exactly what I've been looking for.
I've been considering starting a thread about what sideboard cards to include against what decks, but you've included that, too, in one convenient place.
This sort of stickied thread, a "Primer," is EXACTLY what I need. Kudos to you, and please keep up the good work!
The Great Creature Token Project
I realize its matches. You should have lost enough games to cost you more matches to being outplayed/making small mistakes/luck. I cannot believe you did this well. It is simply beyond the realm of possiblity.
FNMs are good for seeing if your manabase is efficient, for keeping your mind sharp in the routine of making plays so you don't go stale when it matters, and having fun. FNMs do not help you prepare for ptqs or higher level events. For those events it is about putting together a gauntlet of accomplished decks from similar high rated events and testing with very good players. That is the testing that is relevent, not FNMs and mws with random scrubs.
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And you are contributing to this discussion how exactly?
The statistics are in question because the original poster is using them to support his findings. If I write up a research paper regarding ultrasonic vocalizations in rats, for example, I am clearly writing the paper in the first place to show my findings which I evidently think are relevent and worth reading to show the community in order to advance our knowledge regarding the matter. When I write up the methods part of my paper, I need to have relevent numbers or else my findings are pointless. If the reader reads my paper and sees that I got my findings without doing t-tests or without looking at p values then he will see that my findings are pointless and be annoyed that he just wasted his time reading it.
For a more straight forward example, say John Smith posts an article for ilovemagic.com. He then reports that Vizzerdrix is insane in extended because he put it in the best deck and has an insane record at fnm. Should you blindly agree and throw vizzerdrix is every blue deck just because some random guy reported his findings? If findings are weakly supported then they need to be questioned.
btw Shmanka, in no means am I attacking you. My only point is that people in general cannot hold FNM statistics as sound proof that their deck and choices are superior to any other. Without having any significant events for standard in a while, its just one word against another so clearly no one has much to work with other than what has worked before and what seems reasonable now.
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That's exactly fine, but I agree with you, tonight I went to a standard tournament placed 3rd. I now realize I need to make a few deck changes in the SB. It's a learning experience, yet FNM at the same time is a necessary evil. Since provincials and testing with my friends, we came up with the results. What else am I suppose to do?
I asked John and CorpT if they needed a primer, it seemed like something this website actually needs. I didn't notice anyone else willing to write/work on something like this (it didn't take long, and a lot of people deem it unnecessary).
I figured "Hey, why not, I've gotten over 250 rating in the past few months. I can share what I have, I'm not afraid of revealing what I do." Besides, gives me a bit of credentials, and hopefully more testing partners.
This is also problem #2, and I am slowly finding that some cards are seemingly useless.
The goal of this primer is to stay ahead of the metagame, this is not only things I am allowing the forum users to see, this is something CorpT and the other moderators has experimented to see how constructive/effective we can be. Now I am getting shot for helping. I don't see how that fits in, or how people are doubting when I release where I get my recent testing, because honestly, those are my only grounds.
Personally, I didn't find it irrelevant. I found it useful, as in "wow these might work for me too!" This guide is about experimenting, and those results lead to my final result of my experiments pre-WWK. If I wanted to brag, I would post my rating, give you my online acc names, and shove it in all your faces. What people are taking at face value is their own business. Honestly, it doesn't bother me at all. People get mad/doubt when other people have success all the time, but tonight when I failed, I shook my opponents hand, said "Good Game", then tried to think about how I can get better. If people don't believe in that, then the loads of information the internet is providing isn't going to help them out one bit.
I can see why people might think it's misleading, but I put it underneath for a reason, and I even mentioned what my personal success' were with the different styles. Yet everyone is taking this information as an attack, why? Want me to give you guys my DCI number so you can look up the results yourself? When I can just keep my privacy, give you the synopsis of the deal. Save yourself some experimenting time (or give you more if it takes you a while).
When I look at the entire post, and I start reading the decklist, I feel as if the decklist is the horse, and the tournament results is just the saddle. I don't see why/how this controversy started, but claiming that the results are "false" is not an excuse to remove them. I am sure that a newer player could use those results, do some testing of their own, and add to that/make changes easier. That's why I think they should stay at the moment.
Back when I tried to qualify for a PTQ, I played Atog, and almost made it. Time to test was a small essence, and I wanted success. I posted the first extended Dredge decklist afterwards. If I knew what I was going up against, and had general testing results. I could have spent 5 minutes theorizing, and had a better prepared SB.
I placed in the 32-50 bracket, out of 600 people, this was 5-6 years ago, I'm almost 23 now, and if I had a better written primer/strategy without paying more money from my pocket like you have to nowadays, I'd say the number one piece of information I would want would be results.
If you feel I am wrong about this/think I should take this piece of information off, then go ahead and just PM me. Don't degrade this thread into another E-peen fight. Cause no one is going to win.
Done!
This post made this primer all worth it. Thank you for taking the time to praise my simple work. Is there anything else I am missing which could be vital? Ask your playgroup if they are learning as well and have any comments. Thanks again!
So I should just put Reitbauer's original (and nothing to stop the rise of white decks) list, and his placement in worlds? I can agree with that to a large extent, this way testing was done, but at the same time it seems out of date (dramatically may I add).
That's exactly what I am confused about, and this debate has gone on long enough. Thanks for your time to post your gratitude. I'll be swapping decklists. It just seems out of date, but if it makes everyone happy how can I argue?
Except those decklists aren't an accurate way to decide what is optimal and what is not, considering it was part draft. Most decklists played Bituminous Blast as a 2 or 3 of and almost all either played Putrid Leech or Rampant Growth. Several Jund players did better in the Standard portion that the top 2, and several scored more points, all of which played Bituminous Blast and I believe did not go hybrid. Just because the top 2 did better in the draft portion does not mean their constructed decks were optimal. You have to look at everything from this PT, not just the top 8 decklists. Proof is on Wizards.
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