I've been testing Whispersilk Cloak against Walker Control primarily. Doesnt add enough honestly. I just really think that Walker Control is going to be that BAD MU for us. Walker Control just has so many weapons against any aggro matchup while being the superior control deck against U/W.
Thanks for the heads up man. I still think im gonna try it just to see it with my own eyes you know. Been thinking about it and thought it could help a bit (the card) so now im not sure. Thanks again though
I thought about replacing the Kor Duelist with the Elite Vanguard. The elite vanguard is more reliable in the first three turns but the Kor Duelist is far more explosive and a far more relevant threat as the game wears on. I can't help but think that the duelist would be absolutely insane with a bonesplitter.
The Oblivion Rings are in the maindeck because they deal with a lot of problems. I wanted to run kor hookmasters in their stead but they only deal with creatures. They can't do anything about planeswalkers or opposing pithing needles or enchantments.
The Kor Aeronauts are on probation. If the Jund and Vampire decks outnumber the control decks then they will be replaced by White Knights. If the Jund and RDW are all over the field then they will be replaced by Kor Firewalkers. I would love to put in the blademasters but evasion is more important for a deck that is trying to push damage through.
Luminarch Ascension is yet another card for control. I am not too happy with it though. In my experience it is far too slow and can be eliminated easily by an oblivion ring.
Currently tweaking things here and there.
I am pleased with the umbras in here. A proactive card like that is really nice to have, and on firewalker, it is just mean. It is also great for Missionary, of course.
Master is nice, but not a card you want too many copies of. Student plays just as nicely as expected as well.
I am currently at the point where I have to figure if the Umbra is better than other choices, like Honor of the Pure, or one of the other 'W: save a guy/guys' spells.
A good thing to note is that the umbra lets a dude survive a coup/day, which is fine.
A possible, interesting SB choice is Tempest of Light, a card people forget about, but can be an amazing EOT play when the opponent has used one or more o-rings. It is also nice against Awakening Zones.
Still have to figure out the sideboard, it was just an idea I had.
I like playing Wall of Omens in this deck, it lets me be more aggressive than I normally could be, and really puts me ahead of the opponent when combined with the missionary. I could see myself replacing them for something else that lets me play defensively easily, but I will continue testing them out.
As for the planeswalkers, Ideally I would have 2 Gideons in here.
Working on it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
Currently tweaking things here and there.
I am pleased with the umbras in here. A proactive card like that is really nice to have, and on firewalker, it is just mean. It is also great for Missionary, of course.
Master is nice, but not a card you want too many copies of. Student plays just as nicely as expected as well.
I am currently at the point where I have to figure if the Umbra is better than other choices, like Honor of the Pure, or one of the other 'W: save a guy/guys' spells.
A good thing to note is that the umbra lets a dude survive a coup/day, which is fine.
A possible, interesting SB choice is Tempest of Light, a card people forget about, but can be an amazing EOT play when the opponent has used one or more o-rings. It is also nice against Awakening Zones.
Still have to figure out the sideboard, it was just an idea I had.
I like playing Wall of Omens in this deck, it lets me be more aggressive than I normally could be, and really puts me ahead of the opponent when combined with the missionary. I could see myself replacing them for something else that lets me play defensively easily, but I will continue testing them out.
As for the planeswalkers, Ideally I would have 2 Gideons in here.
Working on it.
Tempest isn't a bad thought, but it does hurt our own Oblivion Rings. Its weird, because it clears O-Ring, Journey and Spreading Seas, but some games you can't let go of your own rings, I can see though if Polymorph gets huge it helping a bit, but Kor Sanctifiers to damn versatile in my opinion to let go of, even at a mana more. Both are great advantage engines though.
Hi. I'm a newbie in Magic the Gathering. I don't have extensive knowledge on the game yet specifically in deck building, strategy and tournaments.
I chose white weenie as my first deck because of it's simple approace to the game.
I feel very sad upon reading all the posts here and realizing that white weenie is having a hard time now in coping up with the current meta. I really hope WW can survive and overcome this struggle.
Anyways, here is my deck build that I plan to use. I haven't tested it yet in any competion.
Creatures [23]
4 White Knight
4 Firewalker
4 Student of Warfare
4 Kor Skyfisher
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Kor Duelist
2 Ranger of Eos
The build is primarily focused againsts Jund and Vamps. It's also focused to be competetive against any control decks. I hope so?
Since RDW regained it's strength, i have my KF's main deck.
White Knight and Student of Warfare are the primary guys to be equipped on.
Kor Duelist is just a bonus, hoping I can fetch one with RoE late game to be an added threat.
I didn't put any planeswalker on the build. I have 2 Ajani Goldmane and 3 Conqueror's Pledge. I thought of adding them since I have HotP's but I plan on adding 2 Gideon Jura since it's just the best planeswalker out there, however I don't have any at the moment.
I also have 4 Bte's, however i didn't put them since I have pro-bears main deck. I think BtE is unuseful when it comes with contol MU? I can switch my 3 LA to 3 BtE's sideboard?
I really need to test thid build asap so I can give results.
This has been pretty fun to play with. what do you all think?
Four Emeria, the Sky Ruin seems really bold in my honest opinion and as top heavy as you are you might want to cut back on some combination of Baneslayers, Monuments or Pledges. I also recommend you main board the O-Rings because they are a needed catchall to ensure adequate and appropriate removal regardless of the match up.
I have grown fond of Brave the Elements over Emerged Unscathed because they give us a chance to respond to the casting of Oblivion Ring or Journey to Nowhere instead of the targeting meaning that they have to hit their own permanent sometimes. I have also found Lapse of Certainty to be backbreaking in some matchups as it delays a DoJ, AiDs, Coup, ect for one more crucial turn.
A word of warning to those of you who want to play WW with 24 lands and expensive spells like BSA and CP and Jura and a lot of RoE and Elspeths. I understand that you want to invest in more midgame options but the core gameplan of WW is to win with small and efficient creatures. If you insist on playing relatively more expensive spells you compromise the consistency of your curve. You are bound to create spell and mana mismatches if you try to dilute your strategy. You could get slow hands or mana flooded hands or variations of the two previous hands I mentioned. Keep in mind also that other decks are built for the midgame and the lategame. You do not want to play on their pace if you are WW. Bust out of the gates with guns blazing. That is what WW is all about.
Ya know, I honestly think Kor Firewalker is still good enough for maindeck. Its all bears anyway right? The equipment makes them dangerous. What else can you ask out of your bears then to be very strong against 2 different tier 1 decks.
I also think you've got to have some card advantage and recovery ability. You can't be losing to the first sweeper that goes through. Ranger of Eos is a must. Conquerer's Pledge seems reasonable as well, though maybe its a sideboard card against UW and not for the main.
Finally, gotta have your Paths maxed out. Mythic Bant alone makes this totally necessary. the fact that they help against BSA and are good against Jund as well is just bonus.
After a lot of tinkering Ive updated my list to this, my prime deck to be is American Gladiators so Im not buying any new cards and plan on testing in this weeks FNM to see if it can be a good rogue deck.
List updated. Playing full American Gladiators + WW kind of beautiful really, you basically keep the pressure on them giving your walkers the clear to come down and take the game away. Axed Ranger of Eos because the 4 drop slot is crowded as is. Adding Blue and Red isnt that bad because the lone tarn makes the lynxes more of a powerhouse.
Against U/W/x control your walkers either nullify theres or they have a hard time dealing with them. Also you can fly over their walls so they have to risk ramping into a walker with Path to Exile and spreading seas can help you fix for jace so they have to rely off their mass removal. Basically you want to force a turn 4 *** or a pte turn 3/2 and get the jump on walker count.
Against Jund you can punish their ramp with KotwO/tectonic Edge and plenty of threats that can draw pulses/bolts buying you the time to step up your walkers.
Baneslayer in SB because Gideon isnt as useful against RDW. Firewalker subing for skyfishers and an aeronaut against RDW and Jund though I might switch it to something else. PtE for Elspeth and a KotWO against Mythic. Luminarch for White Knights against UW control.
i would call this deck WW meta killer deck, WW aggro / UWR planeswalker killer.
nice idea on paper but how does it do on playtesting/s or any tourney results yet?
I think we need a red splash. Face it, we get whupped by a lot of Tier 1 decks that aren't red or black. It really depends on your build though. If we splash red though, we get a ton of awesome cards, but I'm really dying for Lightning Bolt and Sparkmage combo with a collar. These are both awesome cards and I can't count the times when I wish I had some direct damage or more removal.
i would call this deck WW meta killer deck, WW aggro / UWR planeswalker killer.
nice idea on paper but how does it do on playtesting/s or any tourney results yet?
Looks crazy, I honestly don't know what to say about it. It looks kinda fun, but it feels like its trying to do two things instead of focusing on one thing.
Anyways, I took my swing at the token build, after discussing it with my friend. Here's what we got.
So my friend wasn't too pleased that I was switching to RDW for the Arizona Regionals next week (I'm still doing it) and he wanted to know if I gave up on the deck, and I said no I'm not done with the deck yet. I asked him since he had been in the position (Been playing Magic a lot more than I have) I asked him, what do you do when you're aggro deck can't beat constant board wipes?
He said, "Simple. Make your deck more wrath resilient." So for a mono-white build this is what we've come up with.
You'll notice to start there are no pro-bears in the main deck. (Sideboard is being figured out still). Our pro's help us fight our enemy colors, which are seeing less and less play each tournament. So we deiced to ditch them to the sideboard.
We decided that we needed to be more wrath resilient and we came up with a few ideas.
1.) Using a Splash of Blue to Negate and try and Counter the Wrath effects.
2.) Using a Splash of Green for Dauntless Escort which honestly is house in the current meta.
3.) Having enough creatures or way to recover from board wipes that it lets you almost ignore wrath effects.
So we decided to go with 3, I'll probably build sample decks for the other two.
In the deck we have our standard threats of Steppe Lynx, Student, and Ranger to Fetch them for us. To join our threats we also decided with BSA.
We have Emeria Angel, Captain of the Watch to give us tokens as bodies. As well as Elspeth and Conqueror's Pledge to feed us even more tokens. A long side the tokens we also have the monument to give us a hand with the final push. Honor of the Pure to also buff.
Oblivion Ring for removal specifically for Gideon Jura as he is probably the decks biggest weakness.
The mana base may be a bit too thing at 22, We may bump it to 24. Emeria, the Skyruin allows us to bring back our creatures (Specifically Captain, BSA, and Emeria, Sometimes Student) to bring us more tokens and ignore board wipes.
Looks crazy, I honestly don't know what to say about it. It looks kinda fun, but it feels like its trying to do two things instead of focusing on one thing.
Anyways, I took my swing at the token build, after discussing it with my friend. Here's what we got.
So my friend wasn't too pleased that I was switching to RDW for the Arizona Regionals next week (I'm still doing it) and he wanted to know if I gave up on the deck, and I said no I'm not done with the deck yet. I asked him since he had been in the position (Been playing Magic a lot more than I have) I asked him, what do you do when you're aggro deck can't beat constant board wipes?
He said, "Simple. Make your deck more wrath resilient." So for a mono-white build this is what we've come up with.
You'll notice to start there are no pro-bears in the main deck. (Sideboard is being figured out still). Our pro's help us fight our enemy colors, which are seeing less and less play each tournament. So we deiced to ditch them to the sideboard.
We decided that we needed to be more wrath resilient and we came up with a few ideas.
1.) Using a Splash of Blue to Negate and try and Counter the Wrath effects.
2.) Using a Splash of Green for Dauntless Escort which honestly is house in the current meta.
3.) Having enough creatures or way to recover from board wipes that it lets you almost ignore wrath effects.
So we decided to go with 3, I'll probably build sample decks for the other two.
In the deck we have our standard threats of Steppe Lynx, Student, and Ranger to Fetch them for us. To join our threats we also decided with BSA.
We have Emeria Angel, Captain of the Watch to give us tokens as bodies. As well as Elspeth and Conqueror's Pledge to feed us even more tokens. A long side the tokens we also have the monument to give us a hand with the final push. Honor of the Pure to also buff.
Oblivion Ring for removal specifically for Gideon Jura as he is probably the decks biggest weakness.
The mana base may be a bit too thing at 22, We may bump it to 24. Emeria, the Skyruin allows us to bring back our creatures (Specifically Captain, BSA, and Emeria, Sometimes Student) to bring us more tokens and ignore board wipes.
Thoughts, ideas, opinions.
I actually like a lot of the ideas, but are you sure with the mana-curve? The deck has 20 cards with a CMC of 4 or more, and only 20 lands that aren't CIPT. I fee like you'll need 24 lands or you'll get screwed often. You could run a 4th White Orchid, I run 4 and I love them unless I'm playing against Elves.
I also don't think you need Emeria or Captain, just because I think Gideon might be more useful, and Pledge gives you 6 tokens and cost 1 less then Captain, which isn't usually big enough to get around walls anyway.
Why Eldrazi Monument? Elspeth gives us indestructibility, flying is nice but I don't know how useful that really is. I also think PTE can get rid of Gideon about as well, as they'll eventually use it's 0 ability.
EDIT: It's also 64 cards. You might want to cut 4, I'd cut the Emeria Angels and Captains.
Looks crazy, I honestly don't know what to say about it. It looks kinda fun, but it feels like its trying to do two things instead of focusing on one thing.
Anyways, I took my swing at the token build, after discussing it with my friend. Here's what we got.
So my friend wasn't too pleased that I was switching to RDW for the Arizona Regionals next week (I'm still doing it) and he wanted to know if I gave up on the deck, and I said no I'm not done with the deck yet. I asked him since he had been in the position (Been playing Magic a lot more than I have) I asked him, what do you do when you're aggro deck can't beat constant board wipes?
He said, "Simple. Make your deck more wrath resilient." So for a mono-white build this is what we've come up with.
You'll notice to start there are no pro-bears in the main deck. (Sideboard is being figured out still). Our pro's help us fight our enemy colors, which are seeing less and less play each tournament. So we deiced to ditch them to the sideboard.
We decided that we needed to be more wrath resilient and we came up with a few ideas.
1.) Using a Splash of Blue to Negate and try and Counter the Wrath effects.
2.) Using a Splash of Green for Dauntless Escort which honestly is house in the current meta.
3.) Having enough creatures or way to recover from board wipes that it lets you almost ignore wrath effects.
So we decided to go with 3, I'll probably build sample decks for the other two.
In the deck we have our standard threats of Steppe Lynx, Student, and Ranger to Fetch them for us. To join our threats we also decided with BSA.
We have Emeria Angel, Captain of the Watch to give us tokens as bodies. As well as Elspeth and Conqueror's Pledge to feed us even more tokens. A long side the tokens we also have the monument to give us a hand with the final push. Honor of the Pure to also buff.
Oblivion Ring for removal specifically for Gideon Jura as he is probably the decks biggest weakness.
The mana base may be a bit too thing at 22, We may bump it to 24. Emeria, the Skyruin allows us to bring back our creatures (Specifically Captain, BSA, and Emeria, Sometimes Student) to bring us more tokens and ignore board wipes.
Thoughts, ideas, opinions.
I like the build however from my play testing the Landfall requirements are counterproductive for the Sky Ruin Trigger. because the deck gets thinned I do not get to the thresh hold needed as often as playing a non thinning mana base. Just from my experience is all.
Now, I have been wanting to add the Kor equipment Toolbox for some extra card advantage Ala Boss Naya but I have not been able to really test it in this build.
I still feel the Monument Build gives this card the Killer instinct it needs to compete with all the Tier 1 decks out there. Dropping a monument gives this deck the reach it needs to kill your opponent even after they have taken board from you in Mid-late game.
This looks like a solid deck, what kind of success have you had using this build and what match ups have you played against?
I haven't posted o herer for a while, but I know something else. My build was in this forum earlier and it included Kor Duelist and Ranger of Eos. I believe throughout the summer Ranger of Eos should be in the deck. However, i want to talk about the options we have when it comes to 1 cmc spells, which includes instants, sorceries, and enchantments.
Path to Exile: Possibly one of the greatest instant removal spell in a long time.It's only second to Swords to Plowshares.
Instant consideration in any deck that uses White. With all of the creatures that are coming out that demand instant speed, this card will not be going away soon.
Brave the Elements:Great protection spell for Token decks. It has the same effect for any decks that mostly uses white creatures.
Harm's Way:Great spell when it came out during the summer. Has been used less of, but that might not work with all of the instant removal in the game.
Oust: New card that acts similar to Path. The card is good for control, but aggro will still prefer Path just to get rid of problematic creatures quickly. Think about this, there have numorous times I have made a Luminarch Ascension online because I pathed a Collonade. What happened if I had Oust? I'm not saying it's bad, but Path is soooo much better.
These some of the likely choices we have to 1 cmc spells. I only have 4 Paths in my deck and the work tremendously.
You seem to be making the mistake of thinking that White Weenie is a single deck archetype.
An aggro ww deck (such as you describe) is a completely different deck, in both construction and strategy, to a token or midrange white weenie build.
Your "words of warning" seem to be somewhat misplaced. Especially considering that the traditional, aggro, low-land archetype you describe is precisely the deck type that will be most harmed in the recent meta-shift.
I'm sorry if I confused you. I'm used to WW being all about using small and efficient creatures and winning with those kinds of creatures. I was referring to that kind of deck. I was under the impression that a midrange WW deck is an oxymoron.
I doubt that slowing down WW into a midrange WW deck is a good idea simply because control is better at the midrange game than a traditionally aggressive deck like WW. The token spells that generate tons of card advantage wouldn't do you any good if they come at a time when the counter walls are up and they have accrued an insane amount of CA. All I am saying is that you do not want to play at the pace of control (and other midrange decks) if you are WW.
WW wins with consistency and speed and as such I do not see any reason to compromise its speed. The biggest problems of WW right now are recovering from sweepers and finishing off opponents. Equipment helps WW from overextending while burn helps finish off opponents.
As you can see from the lists that I have posted I am looking into building WW decks with fast curves or WW decks with red splashes for additional reach (i.e. burn spells). I put together the WW deck and the WWr deck I posted and here is what I got. A ton of cheap and efficient creatures, some equipment to push damage, and some burn spells to finish off opponents or keep walkers down.
i would call this deck WW meta killer deck, WW aggro / UWR planeswalker killer.
nice idea on paper but how does it do on playtesting/s or any tourney results yet?
Only thing so far in FNM and playtesting (30 games aprox. for the tier 1 and 1.5 decks Jund, U/W Tapout, American Gladiators, U/W Chapin, Naya,RDW Mythic, and Polymorph) is that I really want to tinker in another Tectonic Edge.
Its about 50/50 against the big 4 of Jund U/W variants, 60/40 in favorish against RDW and 40/60 against Naya and Mythic. The only bad matchup is Polymorph but that deck isnt really established. Mind you thats preside board and not a lot of decks have effective SB options against it which puts the odds more in your favor.
They basically have to board in slower cards to deal with your walkers and get steamrolled by your creatures or faster removal and get locked down in the late game.
The only changes I did where pitfall traps over baneslayers because removal becomes so important against bant/naya.
Also at the trying to do two things at once, think about it this way American gladiators essentially wants to live till turn 4 and take over with its walkers. So far and this is just me but I have found it easier to make it into the late game with a stronger board presence with the WW package then the control package.
The ability of this deck to take advantage of Jund or Control stuttering is greater then normal WW. It still is as explosive your stock build but in effect stymizes ramp and recovers easily from a wrath effect due to its walkers. Also Ajani gives the deck some reach where your opponent has to watch their life total somewhat knowing you can drop an Ajani.
Jace is the other great part of this deck he gives you better recovery then RoE, if your opponent stutters you can ensure he gets nothing but land or hide answers from him, and watch Jund and Vampire (There is always one it seems) cry when their bloodwitch keeps going back to their hand.
Gideon was an iffy for me untill, he ended up winning the game for me against Tap out and Mythic. He essentially two card combos with the rest of the deck, +Jace they die to mill after being fatesealed to death, ajani the same or with Elspeth he actually does the killing, or if you have an army out plus a walker you win in a turn due to unrestricted alpha striking.
Flyers over RoE and Firewalker. First the deck as is has good match up against RDW they really hate to see Ajani or Gideon plain and simple. So Firewalkers improve an already good matchup. However Wall of Omens is everywhere and Wall of Denial to a lesser extent. Being able to not waste removal on a cantrip and keep pressure on forcing paths and ***s is essential to all of U/W/x control (And I thought it was dead, right guys?) also RoE essentially tutors up SoW steppe Lynxes are bad target and SoW takes a lot of investment to turn into a threat where as the walkers become threats with little investment and are naturally immune to most removal.
Heres what Id like to challenge people in this thread to do, as you make your decks think about any card that helps you late to mid game and think if it really is better then the planeswalker suite.
Previous decklist updated aswell.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Don't you see that the whole aim of Moderators is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make infractions literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten.
I now have to talk about artifacts with 1 or less cmc. this will be important for us to choose from to make sure that we have access to a cheap artifact that works efficiently. I had to talk about this slot in a different section from the rest because it requires more care to choose from.
Adventuring Gear: A good equipment that turns a fetchland into a powerhouse, and a late game land into a relative use. Can turn on Duelist and any evasion guy loves power from nowhere. Could be a one of in any WW deck that uses ANY fetchland, not just the expensive ones.
Basilisk Collar: Everything we need to compete. Makes any creature you have competitive to deal with.This is god when it's on a first striker.
Sigil of Distinction: The original powerhouse for the WW equip build. Gave alot of power for mana you weren't using. Limited answers but still can be beaten. With Level up, however, this guy could see less play becuase I believe the left over mana would be used to Level up Student (or Transendent Master if you use it). It's up in the air for anyone, I don't run it becuase I use the mana for Students
Trusty Machete: A cheap consistent weapon in our arsenol. It speeds up the clokc against Jund and forces them to over extend. It's relative use is for any creatures to get a little more damage done.
for now I run 1 Collar, 1 Gear, and 1 Machete. I run 3 Mystics for those artifacts.
i'd have to agree, making the deck more wrath resilient (tokens) makes it better. then again, the first strike team is still good. maybe mixing them up?
so here's my take.
i think i might swap out the DoJs in the main and just put o-rings in instead.
(but still keeping some in the board for bloodwitches and shrouded creatures)
pledge and emeria angel are my wrath rebound cards, obviously.
pledge is just amazing with goldmane/HoTP.
emeria angel and her tokens's evasion is premium.
the luminarch ascension and o-rings are for the UW problem. i'm thinking of where to put in a pithing needles too. the tectonic edges help.
more black and red hate can be sided in for the jund and occasional vamps or B/R matchups.
question: steppe lynx is explosive with the fetches, that's well known. but do i go for student of warfare's consistency instead?
i know WW suffered a lot because of the surge of UW and UW/r decks in the meta, and i know my list can be improved and i'd appreciate suggestions.
i love this deck though, it won me a shiny BBE:D
Heres what Id like to challenge people in this thread to do, as you make your decks think about any card that helps you late to mid game and think if it really is better then the planeswalker suite.
Previous decklist updated aswell.
I like the planeswalker suite and I think that it is an excellent (lateral-thinking) solution to the problem of WW. I am not saying my solution is better, its just that I prefer burn spells over walkers for several reasons so for now I'm sticking to burn spells.
The beauty of burn spells is that they decrease the amount of damage your creatures have to do to win the game. Two lightning bolts and a staggershock translates to ten damage. That is ten points off of what your creatures have to deal in their window. Moreover, burn spells also interact very well with creatures and opposing planeswalkers.
Last night I looked back on the White-Red allies deck I built that enjoyed considerable success and I realized that I can actually combine allies with the steppe lynxes, students, mystics, and equipment. I remembered that the key elements of the allies deck were the freeblades, evangels, battlesingers, and blademasters; all of which fit into the curve of WWr. If you don't already know, allies can get extremely punishing draws. A turn one hada freeblade followed up by a battlesinger is a beating. This means that WWr Allies could bust out its allies or efficient beaters and enhance them with equipment and throw out burn spells. WWr can start off with a lynx, student, or freeblade. WWr can ramp up the damage with hasted battlesingers too. It can afford to extend a bit more also because it has access to burn spells.
I'd Recommend focusing your testing against U/W control and U/W/r PlanesWalker Control. These two are the absolute worst match-ups imho.
I've done significant testing against Walker control and its just downright saddening how effective this deck is against a deticated aggro build. Whether you are trying to use the equipment suite or honor of the pure, it just goes downhill the longer the match goes which is exactly how Walker Control is built.
I'm thinking about a possible W/R build somehow, but without a dual land to sustain it and having only fetches, it might not be worth the effort.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing
Standard U// SoM/Inn Rotation Grixis Control W/L/D 22-7-2 (4-3 in 5k, Dropped 7th round)
Status: Reactivated
U// Inn/RtR Rotation Grixis Control Tournament W/L/D 3-1-0 Testing 1-0-0
Status: Active
Modern
Not getting into it yet. No local modern tourneys
EDH G Azusa W/L/D 8-2-0 Status: Back! but retired for now
I'd Recommend focusing your testing against U/W control and U/W/r PlanesWalker Control. These two are the absolute worst match-ups imho.
I've done significant testing against Walker control and its just downright saddening how effective this deck is against a deticated aggro build. Whether you are trying to use the equipment suite or honor of the pure, it just goes downhill the longer the match goes which is exactly how Walker Control is built.
I'm thinking about a possible W/R build somehow, but without a dual land to sustain it and having only fetches, it might not be worth the effort.
Wr for what? Ajani V? He's the only thing that seems like it's worth splashing for... unless you want flame slash for bloodwitch or something.
Wb seems better against control, if that's what you're really worried about. Gives you access to scullers and duresses. But still...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Thanks for the heads up man. I still think im gonna try it just to see it with my own eyes you know. Been thinking about it and thought it could help a bit (the card) so now im not sure. Thanks again though
4 Kor Duelist
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Kor Aeronaut
4 Kor Skyfisher
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Emerge Unscathed
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Sigil of Distinction
2 Basilisk Collar
2 Trusty Machete
LANDS
10 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
4 Pithing Needle
4 Kor Firewalker
4 Devout Lightcaster
3 Luminarch Ascension
I thought about replacing the Kor Duelist with the Elite Vanguard. The elite vanguard is more reliable in the first three turns but the Kor Duelist is far more explosive and a far more relevant threat as the game wears on. I can't help but think that the duelist would be absolutely insane with a bonesplitter.
The Oblivion Rings are in the maindeck because they deal with a lot of problems. I wanted to run kor hookmasters in their stead but they only deal with creatures. They can't do anything about planeswalkers or opposing pithing needles or enchantments.
The Kor Aeronauts are on probation. If the Jund and Vampire decks outnumber the control decks then they will be replaced by White Knights. If the Jund and RDW are all over the field then they will be replaced by Kor Firewalkers. I would love to put in the blademasters but evasion is more important for a deck that is trying to push damage through.
Luminarch Ascension is yet another card for control. I am not too happy with it though. In my experience it is far too slow and can be eliminated easily by an oblivion ring.
4 Lone Missionary
4 Kor Firewalker
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Wall of Omens
2 Transcendent Master
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Hyena Umbra
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Path to Exile
1 Gideon Jura
23 Plains
Currently tweaking things here and there.
I am pleased with the umbras in here. A proactive card like that is really nice to have, and on firewalker, it is just mean. It is also great for Missionary, of course.
Master is nice, but not a card you want too many copies of. Student plays just as nicely as expected as well.
I am currently at the point where I have to figure if the Umbra is better than other choices, like Honor of the Pure, or one of the other 'W: save a guy/guys' spells.
A good thing to note is that the umbra lets a dude survive a coup/day, which is fine.
A possible, interesting SB choice is Tempest of Light, a card people forget about, but can be an amazing EOT play when the opponent has used one or more o-rings. It is also nice against Awakening Zones.
Still have to figure out the sideboard, it was just an idea I had.
I like playing Wall of Omens in this deck, it lets me be more aggressive than I normally could be, and really puts me ahead of the opponent when combined with the missionary. I could see myself replacing them for something else that lets me play defensively easily, but I will continue testing them out.
As for the planeswalkers, Ideally I would have 2 Gideons in here.
Working on it.
Twitter
Tempest isn't a bad thought, but it does hurt our own Oblivion Rings. Its weird, because it clears O-Ring, Journey and Spreading Seas, but some games you can't let go of your own rings, I can see though if Polymorph gets huge it helping a bit, but Kor Sanctifiers to damn versatile in my opinion to let go of, even at a mana more. Both are great advantage engines though.
I chose white weenie as my first deck because of it's simple approace to the game.
I feel very sad upon reading all the posts here and realizing that white weenie is having a hard time now in coping up with the current meta. I really hope WW can survive and overcome this struggle.
Anyways, here is my deck build that I plan to use. I haven't tested it yet in any competion.
Creatures [23]
4 White Knight
4 Firewalker
4 Student of Warfare
4 Kor Skyfisher
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Kor Duelist
2 Ranger of Eos
Spells [7]
4 Path to Exile
3 Oblivion Ring
Enchantments [4]
4 Honor of the Pure
Artifacts [4]
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Trusty Machete
2 Behemoth Sledge
Lands [22]
10 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
3 Stirring Wildwood
3 Tectonic Edge
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Forest
Sideboard [15]
4 Devout Lightcaster
4 Kor Sanctifiers
4 Celestial Purge
3 Luminarch Ascension
The build is primarily focused againsts Jund and Vamps. It's also focused to be competetive against any control decks. I hope so?
Since RDW regained it's strength, i have my KF's main deck.
White Knight and Student of Warfare are the primary guys to be equipped on.
Kor Duelist is just a bonus, hoping I can fetch one with RoE late game to be an added threat.
I didn't put any planeswalker on the build. I have 2 Ajani Goldmane and 3 Conqueror's Pledge. I thought of adding them since I have HotP's but I plan on adding 2 Gideon Jura since it's just the best planeswalker out there, however I don't have any at the moment.
I also have 4 Bte's, however i didn't put them since I have pro-bears main deck. I think BtE is unuseful when it comes with contol MU? I can switch my 3 LA to 3 BtE's sideboard?
I really need to test thid build asap so I can give results.
Please give your insights about the deck. Thanks!
3x Captain of the Watch
3x Ranger of Eos
4x Baneslayer Angel
4x Student of Warfare
3x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Soul Warden
4x Conqueror's Pledge
2x Path to Exile
3x Eldrazi Monument
4x Emeria, Sky Ruin
This has been pretty fun to play with. what do you all think?
Four Emeria, the Sky Ruin seems really bold in my honest opinion and as top heavy as you are you might want to cut back on some combination of Baneslayers, Monuments or Pledges. I also recommend you main board the O-Rings because they are a needed catchall to ensure adequate and appropriate removal regardless of the match up.
Here is my latest build:
4 Arid Mesa
9 Plains
3 Tectonic Edge
2 Dread Statuary
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Student of Warfare
3 Elite Vanguard
1 Kor Duelist
3 Kor Skyfisher
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Ranger of Eos
1 Sigil of Distinction
3 Elspeth, the Knight-Errant
3 Brave the Elements
4 Path to Exile
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Day of Judgment
3 Celestial Purge
3 Pithing Needle
1 Day of Judgment
4 Kor Firewalker
2 Kor Sanctifiers
2 Lapse of Certainty
I have grown fond of Brave the Elements over Emerged Unscathed because they give us a chance to respond to the casting of Oblivion Ring or Journey to Nowhere instead of the targeting meaning that they have to hit their own permanent sometimes. I have also found Lapse of Certainty to be backbreaking in some matchups as it delays a DoJ, AiDs, Coup, ect for one more crucial turn.
3x Elspeth, Knight Errant
3x Captain of the Watch
4x Ranger of Eos
3x Baneslayer Angel
4x Student of Warfare
3x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Soul Warden
3x Conqueror's Pledge
4x Oblivion Ring
3x Eldrazi Monument
3x Emeria, Sky Ruin
These are a few tweeks and its runs a little bit better
I also think you've got to have some card advantage and recovery ability. You can't be losing to the first sweeper that goes through. Ranger of Eos is a must. Conquerer's Pledge seems reasonable as well, though maybe its a sideboard card against UW and not for the main.
Finally, gotta have your Paths maxed out. Mythic Bant alone makes this totally necessary. the fact that they help against BSA and are good against Jund as well is just bonus.
I'm looking at something like this
2 Kor Duelist
2 Akrasan Squire
4 Kor Firewalker
4 Sigiled Paladin
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Ranger of Eos
2 Conquerer's Pledge
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Trusty Machete
1 Sigil of Distinction
3 Oblivion Ring
21 Plains
i would call this deck WW meta killer deck, WW aggro / UWR planeswalker killer.
nice idea on paper but how does it do on playtesting/s or any tourney results yet?
Looks crazy, I honestly don't know what to say about it. It looks kinda fun, but it feels like its trying to do two things instead of focusing on one thing.
Anyways, I took my swing at the token build, after discussing it with my friend. Here's what we got.
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Student of Warfare
3 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Ranger of Eos
2 Emeria Angel
2 Captain of the Watch
3 Baneslayer Angel
3 Eldrazi Monument
3 Conqueror's Pledge
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Honor of the Pure
Plainswalkers:4
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon Jura
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
3 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
11 Plains
So my friend wasn't too pleased that I was switching to RDW for the Arizona Regionals next week (I'm still doing it) and he wanted to know if I gave up on the deck, and I said no I'm not done with the deck yet. I asked him since he had been in the position (Been playing Magic a lot more than I have) I asked him, what do you do when you're aggro deck can't beat constant board wipes?
He said, "Simple. Make your deck more wrath resilient." So for a mono-white build this is what we've come up with.
You'll notice to start there are no pro-bears in the main deck. (Sideboard is being figured out still). Our pro's help us fight our enemy colors, which are seeing less and less play each tournament. So we deiced to ditch them to the sideboard.
We decided that we needed to be more wrath resilient and we came up with a few ideas.
1.) Using a Splash of Blue to Negate and try and Counter the Wrath effects.
2.) Using a Splash of Green for Dauntless Escort which honestly is house in the current meta.
3.) Having enough creatures or way to recover from board wipes that it lets you almost ignore wrath effects.
So we decided to go with 3, I'll probably build sample decks for the other two.
In the deck we have our standard threats of Steppe Lynx, Student, and Ranger to Fetch them for us. To join our threats we also decided with BSA.
We have Emeria Angel, Captain of the Watch to give us tokens as bodies. As well as Elspeth and Conqueror's Pledge to feed us even more tokens. A long side the tokens we also have the monument to give us a hand with the final push. Honor of the Pure to also buff.
Oblivion Ring for removal specifically for Gideon Jura as he is probably the decks biggest weakness.
The mana base may be a bit too thing at 22, We may bump it to 24. Emeria, the Skyruin allows us to bring back our creatures (Specifically Captain, BSA, and Emeria, Sometimes Student) to bring us more tokens and ignore board wipes.
Thoughts, ideas, opinions.
Standard
WUW/U HumansUW
Modern
WBW/B TokensBW
I actually like a lot of the ideas, but are you sure with the mana-curve? The deck has 20 cards with a CMC of 4 or more, and only 20 lands that aren't CIPT. I fee like you'll need 24 lands or you'll get screwed often. You could run a 4th White Orchid, I run 4 and I love them unless I'm playing against Elves.
I also don't think you need Emeria or Captain, just because I think Gideon might be more useful, and Pledge gives you 6 tokens and cost 1 less then Captain, which isn't usually big enough to get around walls anyway.
Why Eldrazi Monument? Elspeth gives us indestructibility, flying is nice but I don't know how useful that really is. I also think PTE can get rid of Gideon about as well, as they'll eventually use it's 0 ability.
EDIT: It's also 64 cards. You might want to cut 4, I'd cut the Emeria Angels and Captains.
I like the build however from my play testing the Landfall requirements are counterproductive for the Sky Ruin Trigger. because the deck gets thinned I do not get to the thresh hold needed as often as playing a non thinning mana base. Just from my experience is all.
Now, I have been wanting to add the Kor equipment Toolbox for some extra card advantage Ala Boss Naya but I have not been able to really test it in this build.
I still feel the Monument Build gives this card the Killer instinct it needs to compete with all the Tier 1 decks out there. Dropping a monument gives this deck the reach it needs to kill your opponent even after they have taken board from you in Mid-late game.
This looks like a solid deck, what kind of success have you had using this build and what match ups have you played against?
Path to Exile: Possibly one of the greatest instant removal spell in a long time.It's only second to Swords to Plowshares.
Instant consideration in any deck that uses White. With all of the creatures that are coming out that demand instant speed, this card will not be going away soon.
Brave the Elements:Great protection spell for Token decks. It has the same effect for any decks that mostly uses white creatures.
Harm's Way:Great spell when it came out during the summer. Has been used less of, but that might not work with all of the instant removal in the game.
Oust: New card that acts similar to Path. The card is good for control, but aggro will still prefer Path just to get rid of problematic creatures quickly. Think about this, there have numorous times I have made a Luminarch Ascension online because I pathed a Collonade. What happened if I had Oust? I'm not saying it's bad, but Path is soooo much better.
These some of the likely choices we have to 1 cmc spells. I only have 4 Paths in my deck and the work tremendously.
I'm sorry if I confused you. I'm used to WW being all about using small and efficient creatures and winning with those kinds of creatures. I was referring to that kind of deck. I was under the impression that a midrange WW deck is an oxymoron.
I doubt that slowing down WW into a midrange WW deck is a good idea simply because control is better at the midrange game than a traditionally aggressive deck like WW. The token spells that generate tons of card advantage wouldn't do you any good if they come at a time when the counter walls are up and they have accrued an insane amount of CA. All I am saying is that you do not want to play at the pace of control (and other midrange decks) if you are WW.
WW wins with consistency and speed and as such I do not see any reason to compromise its speed. The biggest problems of WW right now are recovering from sweepers and finishing off opponents. Equipment helps WW from overextending while burn helps finish off opponents.
As you can see from the lists that I have posted I am looking into building WW decks with fast curves or WW decks with red splashes for additional reach (i.e. burn spells). I put together the WW deck and the WWr deck I posted and here is what I got. A ton of cheap and efficient creatures, some equipment to push damage, and some burn spells to finish off opponents or keep walkers down.
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Kor Aeronaut
4 Kor Skyfisher
3 Kor Duelist
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Staggershock
2 Sigil of Distinction
2 Basilisk Collar
2 Trusty Machete
8 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
4 Mountain
Only thing so far in FNM and playtesting (30 games aprox. for the tier 1 and 1.5 decks Jund, U/W Tapout, American Gladiators, U/W Chapin, Naya,RDW Mythic, and Polymorph) is that I really want to tinker in another Tectonic Edge.
Its about 50/50 against the big 4 of Jund U/W variants, 60/40 in favorish against RDW and 40/60 against Naya and Mythic. The only bad matchup is Polymorph but that deck isnt really established. Mind you thats preside board and not a lot of decks have effective SB options against it which puts the odds more in your favor.
They basically have to board in slower cards to deal with your walkers and get steamrolled by your creatures or faster removal and get locked down in the late game.
The only changes I did where pitfall traps over baneslayers because removal becomes so important against bant/naya.
Also at the trying to do two things at once, think about it this way American gladiators essentially wants to live till turn 4 and take over with its walkers. So far and this is just me but I have found it easier to make it into the late game with a stronger board presence with the WW package then the control package.
The ability of this deck to take advantage of Jund or Control stuttering is greater then normal WW. It still is as explosive your stock build but in effect stymizes ramp and recovers easily from a wrath effect due to its walkers. Also Ajani gives the deck some reach where your opponent has to watch their life total somewhat knowing you can drop an Ajani.
Jace is the other great part of this deck he gives you better recovery then RoE, if your opponent stutters you can ensure he gets nothing but land or hide answers from him, and watch Jund and Vampire (There is always one it seems) cry when their bloodwitch keeps going back to their hand.
Gideon was an iffy for me untill, he ended up winning the game for me against Tap out and Mythic. He essentially two card combos with the rest of the deck, +Jace they die to mill after being fatesealed to death, ajani the same or with Elspeth he actually does the killing, or if you have an army out plus a walker you win in a turn due to unrestricted alpha striking.
Flyers over RoE and Firewalker. First the deck as is has good match up against RDW they really hate to see Ajani or Gideon plain and simple. So Firewalkers improve an already good matchup. However Wall of Omens is everywhere and Wall of Denial to a lesser extent. Being able to not waste removal on a cantrip and keep pressure on forcing paths and ***s is essential to all of U/W/x control (And I thought it was dead, right guys?) also RoE essentially tutors up SoW steppe Lynxes are bad target and SoW takes a lot of investment to turn into a threat where as the walkers become threats with little investment and are naturally immune to most removal.
Heres what Id like to challenge people in this thread to do, as you make your decks think about any card that helps you late to mid game and think if it really is better then the planeswalker suite.
Previous decklist updated aswell.
Adventuring Gear: A good equipment that turns a fetchland into a powerhouse, and a late game land into a relative use. Can turn on Duelist and any evasion guy loves power from nowhere. Could be a one of in any WW deck that uses ANY fetchland, not just the expensive ones.
Basilisk Collar: Everything we need to compete. Makes any creature you have competitive to deal with.This is god when it's on a first striker.
Sigil of Distinction: The original powerhouse for the WW equip build. Gave alot of power for mana you weren't using. Limited answers but still can be beaten. With Level up, however, this guy could see less play becuase I believe the left over mana would be used to Level up Student (or Transendent Master if you use it). It's up in the air for anyone, I don't run it becuase I use the mana for Students
Trusty Machete: A cheap consistent weapon in our arsenol. It speeds up the clokc against Jund and forces them to over extend. It's relative use is for any creatures to get a little more damage done.
for now I run 1 Collar, 1 Gear, and 1 Machete. I run 3 Mystics for those artifacts.
so here's my take.
4 steppe lynx
4 kazandu blademaster
4 knight of the white orchid
4 white knight
recovery
3 emeria angel
3 conqueror's pledge
boosts
2 ajani goldmane
3 brave the elements
4 honor of the pure
4 path to exile
2 day of judgement
lands
2 tectonic edge
2 gargoyle castle
4 arid mesa
4 marsh flats
11 plains
1 day of judgement
2 oblivion ring
2 luminach ascension
3 celestial purge
3 devout lightcaster
4 kor firewalker
i think i might swap out the DoJs in the main and just put o-rings in instead.
(but still keeping some in the board for bloodwitches and shrouded creatures)
pledge and emeria angel are my wrath rebound cards, obviously.
pledge is just amazing with goldmane/HoTP.
emeria angel and her tokens's evasion is premium.
the luminarch ascension and o-rings are for the UW problem. i'm thinking of where to put in a pithing needles too. the tectonic edges help.
more black and red hate can be sided in for the jund and occasional vamps or B/R matchups.
question: steppe lynx is explosive with the fetches, that's well known. but do i go for student of warfare's consistency instead?
i know WW suffered a lot because of the surge of UW and UW/r decks in the meta, and i know my list can be improved and i'd appreciate suggestions.
i love this deck though, it won me a shiny BBE:D
I like the planeswalker suite and I think that it is an excellent (lateral-thinking) solution to the problem of WW. I am not saying my solution is better, its just that I prefer burn spells over walkers for several reasons so for now I'm sticking to burn spells.
The beauty of burn spells is that they decrease the amount of damage your creatures have to do to win the game. Two lightning bolts and a staggershock translates to ten damage. That is ten points off of what your creatures have to deal in their window. Moreover, burn spells also interact very well with creatures and opposing planeswalkers.
Last night I looked back on the White-Red allies deck I built that enjoyed considerable success and I realized that I can actually combine allies with the steppe lynxes, students, mystics, and equipment. I remembered that the key elements of the allies deck were the freeblades, evangels, battlesingers, and blademasters; all of which fit into the curve of WWr. If you don't already know, allies can get extremely punishing draws. A turn one hada freeblade followed up by a battlesinger is a beating. This means that WWr Allies could bust out its allies or efficient beaters and enhance them with equipment and throw out burn spells. WWr can start off with a lynx, student, or freeblade. WWr can ramp up the damage with hasted battlesingers too. It can afford to extend a bit more also because it has access to burn spells.
Here is what I am thinking of.
4 Hada Freeblade
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Student of Warfare
4 Akoum Battlesinger
4 Kazandu Blademaster
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Kabira Evangel
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Staggershock
2 Sigil of Distinction
2 Basilisk Collar
LANDS
8 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsha Flats
4 Mountain
4 Pithing Needle
4 Kor Firewalker
4 Devout Lightcaster
3 Path to Exile
What do you guys think?
I'd Recommend focusing your testing against U/W control and U/W/r PlanesWalker Control. These two are the absolute worst match-ups imho.
I've done significant testing against Walker control and its just downright saddening how effective this deck is against a deticated aggro build. Whether you are trying to use the equipment suite or honor of the pure, it just goes downhill the longer the match goes which is exactly how Walker Control is built.
I'm thinking about a possible W/R build somehow, but without a dual land to sustain it and having only fetches, it might not be worth the effort.
Standard
U// SoM/Inn Rotation Grixis Control W/L/D 22-7-2 (4-3 in 5k, Dropped 7th round)
Status: Reactivated
U// Inn/RtR Rotation Grixis Control Tournament W/L/D 3-1-0 Testing 1-0-0
Status: Active
Modern
Not getting into it yet. No local modern tourneys
EDH
G Azusa W/L/D 8-2-0 Status: Back! but retired for now
Wr for what? Ajani V? He's the only thing that seems like it's worth splashing for... unless you want flame slash for bloodwitch or something.
Wb seems better against control, if that's what you're really worried about. Gives you access to scullers and duresses. But still...