Everybody's favorite unique snowflake.... I have been here long enough to tell you your little spike/mod joke is unoriginal. it is disgraceful. I gave logical reasons for my arguments and you abused your authority to make a childish joke. Congratulations. bonus Spiketard points for you!!!Well surprise surprise surprise!! The current Grixis builds got taken down by Tectonic Edge!
read about my now----- less than relevant testing (due to meta game changes)
I promised testing with Seer's Sundial and Armillary Sphere ( won 68% of my games and drew and average of 4.2 cards per game -20 games -all games were vs Jund swapping game one back and forth) then I attempted the same games with Jace 2.0 and Treasure Hunt. I lost 6 games in a row and determined my deck had to be rebuilt to accommodate the new draw/ card control engine. I decided i would wait untill the results from the pro tour to approach this problem.
I need to do more work - BUT: Armillary Sphere hits the 7 mana (for Cruel Ultimatum with basic lands.)
It is always a consistent draw / ramp card.
When you draw it, it does not give an illusion of comfort the way "Call da Ambalamps" Treasure Hunt does. Cast Armillary Sphere and use it to gain CA and have better draws.( I am tired of the anecdotes about getting out of land pockets with Treasure Hunt. Nice story bro!!! Please give statistical data to prove random vs land pocket ... whatever dream on!!!)
Treasure Hunt is a combo card!!! Without Jace dMS and Halimar Depths? If it is out of context? It is a luck and garbage cycle card at best.
So beyond all this? main problem for Grixis control is the land base, second is more diverse control ... not just taming the creatures.
Everybody's favorite unique snowflake.... I have been here long enough to tell you your little spike/mod joke is unoriginal. it is disgraceful. I gave logical reasons for my arguments and you abused your authority to make a childish joke. Congratulations. bonus Spiketard points for you!!!Well surprise surprise surprise!! The current Grixis builds got taken down by Tectonic Edge!
read about my now----- less than relevant testing (due to meta game changes)
I promised testing with Seer's Sundial and Armillary Sphere ( won 68% of my games and drew and average of 4.2 cards per game -20 games -all games were vs Jund swapping game one back and forth) then I attempted the same games with Jace 2.0 and Treasure Hunt. I lost 6 games in a row and determined my deck had to be rebuilt to accommodate the new draw/ card control engine. I decided i would wait untill the results from the pro tour to approach this problem.
I need to do more work - BUT: Armillary Sphere hits the 7 mana (for Cruel Ultimatum with basic lands.)
It is always a consistent draw / ramp card.
When you draw it, it does not give an illusion of comfort the way "Call da Ambalamps" Treasure Hunt does. Cast Armillary Sphere and use it to gain CA and have better draws.( I am tired of the anecdotes about getting out of land pockets with Treasure Hunt. Nice story bro!!! Please give statistical data to prove random vs land pocket ... whatever dream on!!!)
Treasure Hunt is a combo card!!! Without Jace dMS and Halimar Depths? If it is out of context? It is a luck and garbage cycle card at best.
So beyond all this? main problem for Grixis control is the land base, second is more diverse control ... not just taming the creatures.
i agree with the mod you really are a unique little snowflake.. armillary sphere sounds decent at BEST on paper, the problem is that it only fetches lands, and sometimes you already have enough and need answers to threats. seers sundial is not good at all, it costs 8 mana to draw 2 cards, divination does it in 3. not to mention it's 2-3 turns faster depending on if your turn 5 land drop is a fetch, and even then you're stuck tapped out again (last turn you tapped 4 for the dial this turn the 4 again to draw 2.. and is you do basic math you'll see that once again it will cost 4 every two draws, opposed to the 3 for 2 that divinations allow.). i myself dont run the depths/jace/TH combo.. because i feel that he depths cause too many lands to come in tapped (itself and the drown catacombs more often)
i dont wanna start flaming or whatever.. but really dude this idea is sub-par at best.. its way too slow and inefficient
EDIT: armillary sphere also allows ZERO mana ramp, you only get one drop per turn
Yeah that seems pretty accurately described, now while there are obvious win conditions combined with chalice in the deck i still find myself beating UW control a lot of the time. The builds i faced did in fact have tectonic edge and he got off roughly two a game but i managed to negate his martial coups and spreading seas the manlands most of the time considering i ran 4 mainboard. I feel like the deck now needs a lot more early game perhaps meaning land harassment by means of spreading seas and like you said, more sweepers and in which case it seems like chain reaction or more earthquakes are the more logical choices. I'll keep playing my deck like it is until i arrive upon a solid solution for our land destro problems.
Another problem I'm having when trying to modify Grixis is that we don't have a true sweeper, so we need spot removal like terminates for when people play cards like manlands, knight of the reliquery, or baneslayer angel, which are completely dead in against control where tectonic edge, martial coup, and doj are still relevant.
For those people still running Capsules, Armillery Sphere could be a replacement for it.
Follow me if you will...
Tectonic Edge kills "Non-Basic", if we drop a Turn 2 or later when we evaluate the board and feel its safe to drop a Capsule, instead we drop Armillery Sphere, dig for 2 Basics. This basically thins our deck of 2 lands, shuffles our library, and gets 2 lands that Tectonic or Ruinblasters can't touch...
Why isn't Armillery Sphere atleast considered?
We could change our our mana base a little bit, add in more Basics, for the most part negating the usefulness of Tectonic Edge and Ruinblasters.
Sure we'd still have to run some non basics, but even if we have our base out, we pop a Armillery Sphere to add insurance if one of our non basics gets blown to bits.
The reason I don't fear Tectonic Edge as much is due to the fact that it slows my opponent down a turn as well. Worst case scenario they'll blow up a Necropolis. This deck proved very consistent as far as landbase for me today (I run 26) - I was never locked out of a color, despite having Necropoli blown up a few times by Tectonics.
A straight-up LD deck might be a different story (as far as being locked out of a color), but counters are still very effective vs. everything but Tectonic.
I posted my list a few pages back, its largely creatureless, and has a potent removal package including the MD Smothers. I my lists matchup vs. green decks is a breeze, and I have beaten Naya at my store pretty regularly. I think it can handle the new Naya brew that has emerged without too much trouble, and I think the Smothers are better than Calcite Turtles with the emergence of all the equipment that will be floating around.
What really scares me is Tectonic Edge. I plan on switching my board around to include Pithing Needle, but that doesn't seem like enough. Oftentimes my games were turned around on turn 7 with Jace setting the table for a Cruel, and those green decks losing a land to keep me off a turn would often mean a game loss. My local store has yet to really embrace the card, but I'm sure it will be coming soon and I'm not looking forward to it : /
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For those people still running Capsules, Armillery Sphere could be a replacement for it.
Follow me if you will...
Tectonic Edge kills "Non-Basic", if we drop a Turn 2 or later when we evaluate the board and feel its safe to drop a Capsule, instead we drop Armillery Sphere, dig for 2 Basics. This basically thins our deck of 2 lands, shuffles our library, and gets 2 lands that Tectonic or Ruinblasters can't touch...
Why isn't Armillery Sphere atleast considered?
We could change our our mana base a little bit, add in more Basics, for the most part negating the usefulness of Tectonic Edge and Ruinblasters.
Sure we'd still have to run some non basics, but even if we have our base out, we pop a Armillery Sphere to add insurance if one of our non basics gets blown to bits.
Thoughts? Discuss?
changing the mana base around to combat specifically Techtonic Edge is the absolute worst idea ever. Think about it. You have to have 4 lands before their Edge becomes effective, at which point they trade 1-for-1 lands with you (they wasted a land drop to kill one of yours, which puts you both at an even playing field in terms of lands on the table assuming you've both played a land each turn). The only advantage your opponent could possibly gain is the one you were dumb enough to allow.
Now, our problem does not lie in Edge specifically, but rather how we play our decks in response to it. Once you see that your opponent is playing Edge, one can only assume that the opponent's deck is either mono-color agro or at most 2-color agro. Those decks cannot afford to allow you to get to the 6-8 mana range, and rely heavily on killing you before you can get there. This means that we must re-think how we play the early game.
As long as you are piloting a Grixis Control deck, any time you play a LD-type deck (whether it be completely focused around blowing up your lands or just the occasional one like those that utilize Edge) you MUST counter early and often. Assume that one of your non-basics will be blown up early, so you may want to hold off on dropping all of your Necropolis' early. If your opponent has nothing but lands on his/her side of the field by turn 5, then you've done your job well -- and from this point you can start looking at tapping mana on your turn to play a turtle/THunt/Jace. Granted you don't want to leave yourself open. I shouldn't have to tell you to leave counter mana open in case they try to make a pivital play. Oh, and for god's sake - when you do finally tap mana on your turn, by all means USE THE NON-BASICS FIRST!!!! Only a fool would leave the non-basics untapped at EOT.
I may not be able to help you win every time, but i can for damn sure help you know how to not play like an idiot... and step one is not using Armillary Sphere!
Regardless of the UW vs Grixis matchup is, I think Grixis Control needs to adjust for the way the meta is shaping. Lots of manlands, fast decks, and tectonic edge is really slows down cruel. The fact that an aggressive deck like mono white aggro can run tectonic edge and take you from 5 lands to 3 is really nasty since we can't play much til turn 6. And maybe more sweepers less spot removal since decks are running things like basilisk collar and behemoth sledge and a ton of little guys making every creature a huge threat.
Agreed. I've been playing UW since mid-December and I've never had issues defeating Grixis. Frankly even back then it was usually just a matter of resolving a Sphinx and Negating the inevitable Cruel, to say nothing of the strength of cards like Martial Coup and Elspeth. Of course, mine was (and is) much different from Chapin's list (which I'm actually not a huge fan of, anyway); its closer to the deck that won the 'Win A Foil Standard Set' tourney (where, appropriately enough, it beat Brian Kibler, who was piloting Chapin's UW list).
Post-WWK the match-up is just a nightmare for you guys thanks to cards like Tectonic Edge (which you can't afford to play yourselves) and manlands (which swing while you're tapped out post-Cruel or eat up Terminates that need to be aimed at guys like Baneslayer). This is to say nothing of the absolutely nutso aggro decks that showed up at worlds like Boss Naya, GW, or WW. Without a reliable and efficient Wrath-style sweeper I'm worried about the future of Grixis.
Wizards made a mistake in not reprinting Mutilate. They may have driven the first nail into the coffin of Grixis Control.
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Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
When you draw it, it does not give an illusion of comfort the way "Call da Ambalamps" Treasure Hunt does. Cast Armillary Sphere and use it to gain CA and have better draws.( I am tired of the anecdotes about getting out of land pockets with Treasure Hunt. Nice story bro!!! Please give statistical data to prove random vs land pocket ... whatever dream on!!!)
Statistical data? Did you read my last post? Let me recap for you.
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Here's how I feel about Treasure Hunt. I know this subject has been beaten to death but I've never had an opportunity to share my ideas on it (I don't think). Sure, it can cycle for 1U but there are many situations when this isn't bad. You can trade that Treasure Hunt for removal, counter, or win conditions.
Approximately one-third of the deck should be removal or counter (for the most part--I understand that there are statistical outliers). This makes the chances of drawing them extremely high, anywhere between 30-33%, give or take. My deck falls around the middle at 31% counter/removal. Win conditions (Planeswalkers, SoJI, Cruel) should take up anywhere between 13-17% of the deck. My deck falls in the beginning of the range at 13%. Most of us are running 26 lands so that gives us 43% lands and leaving only 13% other stuff (Other stuff includes draw power, and Calcite Snapper).
Using these base statistics, we can see that drawing land shows the highest possibility overall, followed by counter/removal.
If you hit that land, Treasure Hunt is automatically better than Divination because you're guaranteed to draw 2 for 2 mana. If you draw MORE than 2, then it's already SIGNIFICANTLY better than Divination. So the basic options are trade Treasure Hunt for something better than itself (subpar to Divination), draw 2, (superior to Divination), or draw 3+ (far superior to Divination). So, 2/3 of the time, Treasure Hunt will be better than Divination.
This is just the statistical details... Lets go over some play details which allow for more situational discussion. Divination will never get you out of a land clump, unless you play two or more back-to-back. And we all know that no matter how well we shuffle, it is inevitable for there to be a land clump at SOME point during our FNM or play testing. Treasure Hunt, if you hit a land clump, will ALWAYS dig you out of it. Also, the synergy with Jace 2.0 is great because you can set it up so that you draw more. As a fan of blue, drawing more never disappoints (or rarely, to be fair).
I do, however, understand the desire for consistently drawing 2 cards with Divination. However, I like the idea of pairing Divination with Jace 1.0 because you get to draw a total of 4 cards each turn you use Jace's draw ability and have a Divination in hand. This certainly allows for some nice digging. Seems pretty good to me.
I'm not saying that Divination is bad by any stretch of the imagination, I am simply stating that I would rather use Treasure Hunt which is better two out of three times.
Agreed. I've been playing UW since mid-December and I've never had issues defeating Grixis. Frankly even back then it was usually just a matter of resolving a Sphinx and Negating the inevitable Cruel, to say nothing of the strength of cards like Martial Coup and Elspeth. Of course, mine was (and is) much different from Chapin's list (which I'm actually not a huge fan of, anyway); its closer to the deck that won the 'Win A Foil Standard Set' tourney (where, appropriately enough, it beat Brian Kibler, who was piloting Chapin's UW list).
Post-WWK the match-up is just a nightmare for you guys thanks to cards like Tectonic Edge (which you can't afford to play yourselves) and manlands (which swing while you're tapped out post-Cruel or eat up Terminates that need to be aimed at guys like Baneslayer). This is to say nothing of the absolutely nutso aggro decks that showed up at worlds like Boss Naya, GW, or WW. Without a reliable and efficient Wrath-style sweeper I'm worried about the future of Grixis.
Wizards made a mistake in not reprinting Mutilate. They may have driven the first nail into the coffin of Grixis Control.
Did you forget about Earthquake which kill everything aggro and deal damage to the opponent?
I got sick of Tectonic edge, cut all of the nonbasics except for 4 Crumbling Necropolis and run all basics. It is not bad, I hit Cruel consistantly still, usually turn 8...turn 7 would be nice, but turn 8 usually I can stick a sphinx with counter and removal back up with a Cruel following within 2 turns. Bumped the land count to 28, it is ok
Of all those things, the needle seems best as you can show down tectonic edge, Jace, and both man lands depending. However, decent chance it'll eat an Oblivion ring...but it still feels best.
@Ubershaum: Out of those, Thought Hemorrhage seems like a decent bet (I've always kind of liked that card), though I think its effectiveness centers on drawing out a counter with Blightning T3 so that you can punch the Hemo T4 (hopefully before they play their Jace). Needle is probably best, since it drops early, has to be bounced, and has applications outside of the Control match-up (stops Equipment shenanigans).
Did you forget about Earthquake which kill everything aggro and deal damage to the opponent?
Earthquake is no longer a reliable sweeper (it never really was).. It may have worked pretty good a few months ago when Jund was 50% of the field but with the rise in GW, WW, Naya, and other decks you're going to have to make some very tough decisions about how/what/when to 'quake.
What B needed (and what it is sorely lacking) is a real sweeper-- something that is guaranteed to kill 99% of the battlefield when played, ala Mutilate or Damnation.
But, its tit-for-tat. If you don't believe me, ignore me, and play what works for you.
"Well, well, if it isn't the most diabolical haters this side of the Mississippi." Alters and Commissions at [URL="noodlesndoodlesalters.tumblr.com/"]Noodles & Doodles Alters[/URL]!
Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
Of all those things, the needle seems best as you can show down tectonic edge, Jace, and both man lands depending. However, decent chance it'll eat an Oblivion ring...but it still feels best.
Any other thoughts?
Smother has been working great for me as a maindeck 2 of. It stops a good number of actual creatures in the format, and is especially good against the man lands.
I also like the idea of Thought hemorrhage in the sideboard. Just make sure they are not in a position to counter it.
On Pithing Needle, I agree that it could be very good against their manlands, Tectonic Edge, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Wouldn't they side out at least 1 Oblivion Ring against Grixis Control? We should have some counter magic ready if they do try to get rid of the Pithing Needle.
Overall, I think you hit the nail on the head. Great Job!
Well, I doubt the Seas thing will work, since I can't imagine any opponent bad enough to not sac the edge in response to the Seas, thus denying you both the LD and the draw.
Hexmage in Grixis? Good luck!
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Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
The reason I don't fear Tectonic Edge as much is due to the fact that it slows my opponent down a turn as well. Worst case scenario they'll blow up a Necropolis. This deck proved very consistent as far as landbase for me today (I run 26) - I was never locked out of a color, despite having Necropoli blown up a few times by Tectonics.
A straight-up LD deck might be a different story (as far as being locked out of a color), but counters are still very effective vs. everything but Tectonic.
I agree. Tectonic Edge is only going to pose a threat in U/W Control since they can tear up their Library with Jace/TH/Depths and find more than a couple during the game. In any other deck, the Edge is only going to be a nuisance.
Chapin's U/W only ran 5 Non-Creature Counterspells MD with 2 Negate in the Side. Which is just about par with us, but 4 of those are Cancel where we usually MD 3 Negate. Just be picky what you counter and save all your Scatters for Iona.
Terminate will take care of Manlands. Smother now is looking better than Deathmark for the sole fact of Nuking a Colonnade.
I think we'll end up on the losing side of the ratio, just from the ramp, CA, and the fact that our Bomb is the hardest to cast in the Meta.
Cool - thanks for the comments.
I just like needle because it answers all of the problems until it's deal with via o-ring.
Smother has always seemed neat, but I'm hesitant to run it unless my meta gets full of Dragon-claw on a stick and I agree - smother definitely makes deathmark obsolete for our purposes.
EDIT: Telemin Performance as the Jank "win" tech. Sure, I'll take your Iona and mill the snot out of you while doing it...
I think we'll end up on the losing side of the ratio, just from the ramp, CA, and the fact that our Bomb is the hardest to cast in the Meta.
That's basically my concern right there, though I think we're going to have a far, far easier time with mid-range and aggro decks. We just curbstomp so many matchups that are rough on UW.
At any rate, definitely going to have to tweak the main to deal with a potential increase in UW decks.
Boss Naya testing really hasn't freaked me out. sure the equipment is a pain, but we've got so many ways to deal with the creatures that even if the sledge, collar, etc come down it's not that big a deal.
I have been using at least one Pithing Needle and two or three thought hemorrhages in the Side-Board because my friend i play most against has a USA Control deck and Needle rocks house against his man lands PW's and staff of dominance's and thought hemorrhages are just good against decks in general that have one single basic win con like in mirror you can just choose Cruel.
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I think that Pithing Needle is the kind of card that our SB needs, a good 3 of Pithing Needle would easily shut down any big planeswalker threat and immediately stops Tectonic Edge in it's tracks. I love the idea, and don't know how I overlooked it. I do see Thought Hemorrhage doing something special, you have counter for your deck for the rest of the threats, and you've got pretty much all the creature control you need. I'd say that a 2 of Thought Hemorrhage
would stabilize the SB but then what gets taken out?
I've already got 4 Duress 3 flashfreeze, 4 deathmark, 2, Double negative, and 2 Pithing Needle.
The needle is pretty solid, holy cow...completely shut down my friends big red goblin deck because he's fetching 8/22 lol. I love it. Keep it. Thought hemorrhage is so powerful against the mirror, or any B/R aggro, just named blightning and won every game!!! 2 of Thought Hemorrhage.
Always counter the cruel.
@Ubershaum:Earthquake is no longer a reliable sweeper (it never really was).. It may have worked pretty good a few months ago when Jund was 50% of the field but with the rise in GW, WW, Naya, and other decks you're going to have to make some very tough decisions about how/what/when to 'quake.
I disagree, especially since the results from San Diego just came back... 1/3 of the whole tourny was filled with Jund, 3 of the top 8 had Jund, and all of which were token/Overunning Garruk builds. Earthquake still hits those...
Earthquake still hits quite a bit of deckds.. Vamps, WW, Allies, Eldrazi Green, Jund, Naya, RDW, and not to mention even when it isn't sweeping the board of things, its another alt win con.
I think Earthquake is too good in this deck.
I've changed up my list, and I know I'll probably get alot of flack for some of my choices, but its been working for me. I don't like copying a deck without atleast putting my own spin on it.
I play FNM so some of my choices are for my FNM meta, keep that in mind.
I do have the U/W matchup at my shop, and figure I like Jace Beleren as a bit of a removal option for Mindsculptors. Worst case I drop Beleren turn 3, I get a draw off it, now that locks them out of playing Mindsculptor till they deal with my Jace. In matchups I don't have to worry about Mindsculptor, its still a decent draw engine with Jace Beleren. Then the fact that if and when I Earthquake, I could redirect my damage to my own Jace. Its an idea that I am going to try and see how it works.
I used to run Turtles, but then I thought about it... If I just bump up my number of Creeping Tar Pits, and add more creature removal, then really... whats the difference?
I admit, I used to run Sphinx of Lost Truths, and it honestly was working very well for me, I ran 3. There were plenty of matchups where I would control, kill kill kill in the first 5 turns. If I didn't have the mana ready on the board and the next 2 in hand and a Cruel so I could be ready on turn 7, then I would cast Lost Truths, draw 3 and decide from there. More often then not I hit the Cruel I needed, and had the 2 land. Then I would keep a removal spell or 2, and dump the rest, the excess lands, dead cards, whatever... I would even dump another Lost Truths, or a Jwar Isle. Because now I am setup to Cruel turn 7, getting back Lost Truths or Jwar Isle. Not to often did I regret discarding 3, most often I hardly ever kicked Lost Truths. But I decided that since there are alot of Mindsculptors at my shop, I would give Beleren a try for earlier draw power, it being probably a more consistent draw engine over Lost Truths, and it would be a specific option for removing Mindsculptors.
I will do some of you a favor and admit that I am a casual noob FNM player, so I ain't nearly as smart as the rest of you. But sometimes I have pretty good ideas. LOL I for one don't like taking someone elses deck list though and having mine be identical, I try to put a different spin on it.
Anyways sorry for the long post... suggestions/thoughts/discussion welcome.
I've been working on including both Thought Hemorrhage and Bituminous Blast in the main, to create a more disruptive control deck. In a competitive tournament, Thought Hemorrhage should always be able to reliably name a threat by turn four, and if you're on the play, it could be a very devastating play indeed.
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I've been working on including both Thought Hemorrhage and Bituminous Blast in the main, to create a more disruptive control deck. In a competitive tournament, Thought Hemorrhage should always be able to reliably name a threat by turn four, and if you're on the play, it could be a very devastating play indeed.
Bituminous Blast is going to give you an awful lot of bad cascades if you run a typical build of this deck. Do you really want to cascade into Double Negative?
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I have been here long enough to tell you your little spike/mod joke is unoriginal. it is disgraceful. I gave logical reasons for my arguments and you abused your authority to make a childish joke. Congratulations. bonus Spiketard points for you!!!Well surprise surprise surprise!! The current Grixis builds got taken down by Tectonic Edge!
read about my now----- less than relevant testing (due to meta game changes)
I promised testing with Seer's Sundial and Armillary Sphere ( won 68% of my games and drew and average of 4.2 cards per game -20 games -all games were vs Jund swapping game one back and forth) then I attempted the same games with Jace 2.0 and Treasure Hunt. I lost 6 games in a row and determined my deck had to be rebuilt to accommodate the new draw/ card control engine. I decided i would wait untill the results from the pro tour to approach this problem.
I need to do more work - BUT: Armillary Sphere hits the 7 mana (for Cruel Ultimatum with basic lands.)
It is always a consistent draw / ramp card.
When you draw it, it does not give an illusion of comfort the way "Call da Ambalamps" Treasure Hunt does. Cast Armillary Sphere and use it to gain CA and have better draws.( I am tired of the anecdotes about getting out of land pockets with Treasure Hunt. Nice story bro!!! Please give statistical data to prove random vs land pocket ... whatever dream on!!!)
Treasure Hunt is a combo card!!! Without Jace dMS and Halimar Depths? If it is out of context? It is a luck and garbage cycle card at best.
So beyond all this? main problem for Grixis control is the land base, second is more diverse control ... not just taming the creatures.
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i agree with the mod you really are a unique little snowflake.. armillary sphere sounds decent at BEST on paper, the problem is that it only fetches lands, and sometimes you already have enough and need answers to threats. seers sundial is not good at all, it costs 8 mana to draw 2 cards, divination does it in 3. not to mention it's 2-3 turns faster depending on if your turn 5 land drop is a fetch, and even then you're stuck tapped out again (last turn you tapped 4 for the dial this turn the 4 again to draw 2.. and is you do basic math you'll see that once again it will cost 4 every two draws, opposed to the 3 for 2 that divinations allow.). i myself dont run the depths/jace/TH combo.. because i feel that he depths cause too many lands to come in tapped (itself and the drown catacombs more often)
i dont wanna start flaming or whatever.. but really dude this idea is sub-par at best.. its way too slow and inefficient
EDIT: armillary sphere also allows ZERO mana ramp, you only get one drop per turn
4-0-0
Another problem I'm having when trying to modify Grixis is that we don't have a true sweeper, so we need spot removal like terminates for when people play cards like manlands, knight of the reliquery, or baneslayer angel, which are completely dead in against control where tectonic edge, martial coup, and doj are still relevant.
Armillery Sphere VS Courier's Capsule?
For those people still running Capsules, Armillery Sphere could be a replacement for it.
Follow me if you will...
Tectonic Edge kills "Non-Basic", if we drop a Turn 2 or later when we evaluate the board and feel its safe to drop a Capsule, instead we drop Armillery Sphere, dig for 2 Basics. This basically thins our deck of 2 lands, shuffles our library, and gets 2 lands that Tectonic or Ruinblasters can't touch...
Why isn't Armillery Sphere atleast considered?
We could change our our mana base a little bit, add in more Basics, for the most part negating the usefulness of Tectonic Edge and Ruinblasters.
Sure we'd still have to run some non basics, but even if we have our base out, we pop a Armillery Sphere to add insurance if one of our non basics gets blown to bits.
Thoughts? Discuss?
Regarding the Goblin... we have 6-7 maindecked answers to Ruinblaster - Double Negative, Flashfreeze, and Essence Scatter.
A straight-up LD deck might be a different story (as far as being locked out of a color), but counters are still very effective vs. everything but Tectonic.
What really scares me is Tectonic Edge. I plan on switching my board around to include Pithing Needle, but that doesn't seem like enough. Oftentimes my games were turned around on turn 7 with Jace setting the table for a Cruel, and those green decks losing a land to keep me off a turn would often mean a game loss. My local store has yet to really embrace the card, but I'm sure it will be coming soon and I'm not looking forward to it : /
Words I have trouble living by...
changing the mana base around to combat specifically Techtonic Edge is the absolute worst idea ever. Think about it. You have to have 4 lands before their Edge becomes effective, at which point they trade 1-for-1 lands with you (they wasted a land drop to kill one of yours, which puts you both at an even playing field in terms of lands on the table assuming you've both played a land each turn). The only advantage your opponent could possibly gain is the one you were dumb enough to allow.
Now, our problem does not lie in Edge specifically, but rather how we play our decks in response to it. Once you see that your opponent is playing Edge, one can only assume that the opponent's deck is either mono-color agro or at most 2-color agro. Those decks cannot afford to allow you to get to the 6-8 mana range, and rely heavily on killing you before you can get there. This means that we must re-think how we play the early game.
As long as you are piloting a Grixis Control deck, any time you play a LD-type deck (whether it be completely focused around blowing up your lands or just the occasional one like those that utilize Edge) you MUST counter early and often. Assume that one of your non-basics will be blown up early, so you may want to hold off on dropping all of your Necropolis' early. If your opponent has nothing but lands on his/her side of the field by turn 5, then you've done your job well -- and from this point you can start looking at tapping mana on your turn to play a turtle/THunt/Jace. Granted you don't want to leave yourself open. I shouldn't have to tell you to leave counter mana open in case they try to make a pivital play. Oh, and for god's sake - when you do finally tap mana on your turn, by all means USE THE NON-BASICS FIRST!!!! Only a fool would leave the non-basics untapped at EOT.
I may not be able to help you win every time, but i can for damn sure help you know how to not play like an idiot... and step one is not using Armillary Sphere!
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Agreed. I've been playing UW since mid-December and I've never had issues defeating Grixis. Frankly even back then it was usually just a matter of resolving a Sphinx and Negating the inevitable Cruel, to say nothing of the strength of cards like Martial Coup and Elspeth. Of course, mine was (and is) much different from Chapin's list (which I'm actually not a huge fan of, anyway); its closer to the deck that won the 'Win A Foil Standard Set' tourney (where, appropriately enough, it beat Brian Kibler, who was piloting Chapin's UW list).
Post-WWK the match-up is just a nightmare for you guys thanks to cards like Tectonic Edge (which you can't afford to play yourselves) and manlands (which swing while you're tapped out post-Cruel or eat up Terminates that need to be aimed at guys like Baneslayer). This is to say nothing of the absolutely nutso aggro decks that showed up at worlds like Boss Naya, GW, or WW. Without a reliable and efficient Wrath-style sweeper I'm worried about the future of Grixis.
Wizards made a mistake in not reprinting Mutilate. They may have driven the first nail into the coffin of Grixis Control.
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"Well, well, if it isn't the most diabolical haters this side of the Mississippi."
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Statistical data? Did you read my last post? Let me recap for you.
End.
GBW Nic-Fit GBW
UBRWG Dredge UBRWG
Modern:
R RDW R
UBW Esper Control UBW
EDH:
BG Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord BG
Did you forget about Earthquake which kill everything aggro and deal damage to the opponent?
Standard
WU[MANA]R[/MANA]AMERICA! EFF YEAH!RU[MANA]W[/MANA]
UBRGrixis [UBeR] ControlRBU
Legacy
UBReanimatorBU
EDH
GBSavra, Queen of the GolgariBG
About the best answers I'm coming up with would be to run things like pithing needle, Thought hemorrhage....
Of all those things, the needle seems best as you can show down tectonic edge, Jace, and both man lands depending. However, decent chance it'll eat an Oblivion ring...but it still feels best.
Any other thoughts?
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Earthquake is no longer a reliable sweeper (it never really was).. It may have worked pretty good a few months ago when Jund was 50% of the field but with the rise in GW, WW, Naya, and other decks you're going to have to make some very tough decisions about how/what/when to 'quake.
What B needed (and what it is sorely lacking) is a real sweeper-- something that is guaranteed to kill 99% of the battlefield when played, ala Mutilate or Damnation.
But, its tit-for-tat. If you don't believe me, ignore me, and play what works for you.
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"Well, well, if it isn't the most diabolical haters this side of the Mississippi."
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Smother has been working great for me as a maindeck 2 of. It stops a good number of actual creatures in the format, and is especially good against the man lands.
I also like the idea of Thought hemorrhage in the sideboard. Just make sure they are not in a position to counter it.
On Pithing Needle, I agree that it could be very good against their manlands, Tectonic Edge, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Wouldn't they side out at least 1 Oblivion Ring against Grixis Control? We should have some counter magic ready if they do try to get rid of the Pithing Needle.
Overall, I think you hit the nail on the head. Great Job!
Well, I doubt the Seas thing will work, since I can't imagine any opponent bad enough to not sac the edge in response to the Seas, thus denying you both the LD and the draw.
Hexmage in Grixis? Good luck!
Sig by ChibiSwan~!
"Well, well, if it isn't the most diabolical haters this side of the Mississippi."
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I agree. Tectonic Edge is only going to pose a threat in U/W Control since they can tear up their Library with Jace/TH/Depths and find more than a couple during the game. In any other deck, the Edge is only going to be a nuisance.
Chapin's U/W only ran 5 Non-Creature Counterspells MD with 2 Negate in the Side. Which is just about par with us, but 4 of those are Cancel where we usually MD 3 Negate. Just be picky what you counter and save all your Scatters for Iona.
Terminate will take care of Manlands. Smother now is looking better than Deathmark for the sole fact of Nuking a Colonnade.
I think we'll end up on the losing side of the ratio, just from the ramp, CA, and the fact that our Bomb is the hardest to cast in the Meta.
I just like needle because it answers all of the problems until it's deal with via o-ring.
Smother has always seemed neat, but I'm hesitant to run it unless my meta gets full of Dragon-claw on a stick and I agree - smother definitely makes deathmark obsolete for our purposes.
EDIT: Telemin Performance as the Jank "win" tech. Sure, I'll take your Iona and mill the snot out of you while doing it...
That's basically my concern right there, though I think we're going to have a far, far easier time with mid-range and aggro decks. We just curbstomp so many matchups that are rough on UW.
At any rate, definitely going to have to tweak the main to deal with a potential increase in UW decks.
Boss Naya testing really hasn't freaked me out. sure the equipment is a pain, but we've got so many ways to deal with the creatures that even if the sledge, collar, etc come down it's not that big a deal.
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Modern: Bant Geist-WUG
Legacy: Reanimator-UB-WRG
EDH:
Ramirez DePietro: Pirate Themed-UB
Riku of Two Reflections: "Oops I Win"-URG
would stabilize the SB but then what gets taken out?
I've already got 4 Duress 3 flashfreeze, 4 deathmark, 2, Double negative, and 2 Pithing Needle.
The needle is pretty solid, holy cow...completely shut down my friends big red goblin deck because he's fetching 8/22 lol. I love it. Keep it.
Thought hemorrhage is so powerful against the mirror, or any B/R aggro, just named blightning and won every game!!! 2 of Thought Hemorrhage.
Always counter the cruel.
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4 Crumbling Necropolis
3 Dragonskull Summit
3 Drowned Catacomb
4 Island
4 Mountain
6 Swamp
3 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Defiler of Souls
4 Sedraxis Specter
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Divination
3 Earthquake
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
4 Treasure Hunt
4 Blightning
1 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Double Negative
4 Flashfreeze
2 Negate
4 Crumbling Necropolis
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mountain
3 Island
4 Swamp
Creatures(5):
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
3 Calcite Snapper
3 Essence Scatter
3 Negate
2 Into the Roil
3 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Earthquake
4 Treasure Hunt
1 Chandra Nalaar
1 Sorin Markov
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Flashfreeze
3 Malakir Bloodwitch
2 Duress
2 Double Negative
2 Smother
1 Earthquake
2 Thought Hemorrhage
I disagree, especially since the results from San Diego just came back... 1/3 of the whole tourny was filled with Jund, 3 of the top 8 had Jund, and all of which were token/Overunning Garruk builds. Earthquake still hits those...
Earthquake still hits quite a bit of deckds.. Vamps, WW, Allies, Eldrazi Green, Jund, Naya, RDW, and not to mention even when it isn't sweeping the board of things, its another alt win con.
I think Earthquake is too good in this deck.
I've changed up my list, and I know I'll probably get alot of flack for some of my choices, but its been working for me. I don't like copying a deck without atleast putting my own spin on it.
Creatures: 3
3 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Spells: 23
3 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Essence Scatter
4 Negate
2 Earthquake
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
4 Into the Roil
Artifacts: 4
4 Courier's Capsule
Planeswalkers: 4
3 Jace Beleren
1 Sorin Markov
Lands: 26
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Crumbling Necropolis
4 Dragonskull Summit
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Swamp
3 Island
2 Mountain
A few notes on my list...
I play FNM so some of my choices are for my FNM meta, keep that in mind.
I do have the U/W matchup at my shop, and figure I like Jace Beleren as a bit of a removal option for Mindsculptors. Worst case I drop Beleren turn 3, I get a draw off it, now that locks them out of playing Mindsculptor till they deal with my Jace. In matchups I don't have to worry about Mindsculptor, its still a decent draw engine with Jace Beleren. Then the fact that if and when I Earthquake, I could redirect my damage to my own Jace. Its an idea that I am going to try and see how it works.
I used to run Turtles, but then I thought about it... If I just bump up my number of Creeping Tar Pits, and add more creature removal, then really... whats the difference?
I admit, I used to run Sphinx of Lost Truths, and it honestly was working very well for me, I ran 3. There were plenty of matchups where I would control, kill kill kill in the first 5 turns. If I didn't have the mana ready on the board and the next 2 in hand and a Cruel so I could be ready on turn 7, then I would cast Lost Truths, draw 3 and decide from there. More often then not I hit the Cruel I needed, and had the 2 land. Then I would keep a removal spell or 2, and dump the rest, the excess lands, dead cards, whatever... I would even dump another Lost Truths, or a Jwar Isle. Because now I am setup to Cruel turn 7, getting back Lost Truths or Jwar Isle. Not to often did I regret discarding 3, most often I hardly ever kicked Lost Truths. But I decided that since there are alot of Mindsculptors at my shop, I would give Beleren a try for earlier draw power, it being probably a more consistent draw engine over Lost Truths, and it would be a specific option for removing Mindsculptors.
I will do some of you a favor and admit that I am a casual noob FNM player, so I ain't nearly as smart as the rest of you. But sometimes I have pretty good ideas. LOL I for one don't like taking someone elses deck list though and having mine be identical, I try to put a different spin on it.
Anyways sorry for the long post... suggestions/thoughts/discussion welcome.
Thanks
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Bituminous Blast is going to give you an awful lot of bad cascades if you run a typical build of this deck. Do you really want to cascade into Double Negative?