ok, fair enough. i like the snapper for a few reasons. the first of which being the fact that it is a low-cost shrouded blocker that has the potential to be a finisher. just because he has a 3cc doesn't mean i drop it as soon as possible. as control players, it is up to us to feel out each match individually and determine for ourselves what time is the right time to play our cards. the next reason why i like the snapper so much is because it helps me stall the game a bit, allowing me time to get board control or even wipe their side out. this is usually easily accomplished by holding a Scalding Tarn back, giving me the option of fetching for the landfall trigger during their turn, which is usually enough for them to avoid attacking. if my opponent is worried more about the 1/4 snapper i have on the board than they are about the cards in my hand, then i will easily swing the game my way.
now let's look at snapper+jace2.0. idk about you guys, but when i play jace i mainly just use the brainstorm ability. sometimes i have to fateseal, and sometimes i have to bounce a dude, but most of the time it's a quick brainstorm. having turtle on the board gives my jace some insurance. and since we're on the subject, when you say that the "turtle backfires sometimes" and is a "bad topdeck late game" you are actually projecting negative feelings about your entire deck at the turtle. what i'm saying is the turtle didn't lose you the game. what did cause you to lose the game is not having sufficient card draw to run the deck correctly (ie. Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Treasure Hunt, etc).
now i'll address the concerns expressed by a few about how the snapper fairs against Vampires. the problem i see here is people sound like they're dropping snapper to block ghasts, hexmage, etc. against vampires, i find that it is crucial to get early control of the board, and i don't accomplish this by dropping snapper early. i accomplish this by using my spot removal on every non-ghast creature they drop. i bolt/terminate/EQ EVERYTHING that isn't a ghast early. put your opponent into a position to play their gatekeeper without kicker just to get a 2/2 body on the board. AFTER gatekeeper is played is when i drop turtle (and by the time gatekeeper is played for the 2cc is usually when the vampire player is at 1-2 cards in hand). bottom line: don't leave yourself open. don't allow yourself to get into a position that makes their spells useful.
playing grixis control without jace2.0 is like playing jund without cascade. it's like playing vampires without nocturnus. it's simply not worth the headache. turtle isn't failing you, your decks shortcomings is where the failure lies. remember, if you want to be competitive, you have to get the cards that matter (jace/fetch lands/insert your card-draw spell here).
I don't buy into the idea that Grixis doesn't work without Jace. It worked well before Jace 2.0, so that kind of debunks that whole theory. I've yet to use Jace, but I must admit that he looks very powerful, and will no doubt make Grixis stronger than it was pre-WW. However, the games that I've lost online can't really be attributed to my lack of Jace 2.0. I mean, there's nothing stopping an opponent from double LB'ing at EOT, leaving you tapped out and Jace-less. No single card makes Grixis tick(outside of Cruel of course).
edit: Speaking of Jace, if a Grixis deck is running a playset of him, is there any reason NOT to sub out all of our creatures, and replace them with Persecutor's? I mean, Jace has a built in unsummon, so the drawbacks of Persecutor are easily circumvented in our deck. Unlike other decks, we wouldn't even have to change our deck to make him work, what with all of our removal anyway, plus Jace 2.0 unsummon. I don't know, just seems like adding x4 of both would inject a huge amount of raw power into the deck.
Here's a sample decklist featuring Persector's MB:
So I have been working on my own Grixis Cruel deck and have also tried putting my own stamp on it as well.
I have read over half of the posts here and would like to share my opinion and also add a few off the wall ideas of my own.
First things first: The Blightning debate: It maybe a dead debate finally but not quite. I agree 100% that with the way the overall take on this deck, having the Shroud creatures and not dropping any early creatures, you hit them with Blightning tapping out on turn 3 at best, they will dump their removal that is dead cards to them anyways, so as someone has already stated you're not really getting the card advantage for it.
Sedraxis Specter: For a long long long time this was one of the personal touches that I put into my version. Up until after reading a good majority of these posts today in this new thread I decided to opt out on him and try the Snappers. Last week I got raped by Mono White and then I made a play mistake and shoulda pulled Sedraxis for game 2 and didn't. So I am just going to go the Shroud rout with the Turtle and give myself a good early blocker as well for other decks such as RDW and Boros Bushwhackers. I like the idea better, although the person that said Sedraxis in the SB when game 2 most control decks will side out removal, Sedraxis will rape!
The Treasure Hunt debate: I think honestly, if you're running Halamir Depths and Jace 2.0, then Treasure Hunt would probably be a pretty great card. Since you're able to manipulate at least a 3 card advantage off it. Giving you extra lands and a spell if nothing else. But if you are running the older versions of the draw power as I am, IE: Capsule, with no Halamir Depths or Jace 2.0, then I don't think it is better.
Double Negative: I 100% agree that this is basically a Cancel 85% or more of the time. So why not? Then havig that other 15% of the time where it matches up with a Bloodbraid and a Blightning is as someone already said, orgasmic!
Sorin Markov: I have noticed alot of people not liking him either... Personally if you got decent enough draw power and thinning of your deck, 1 Sorin in my honest opinion is plenty. And sure, 1 Sorin more often then not might not see play to change the game either way. However he is such a bad ass that when he does see play, he's worth it. Obviously as some have mentioned, in decks where you're being out aggro'ed, you have Sorin in hand, you evaluate, do I play it? Will gaining 2 life now really help me? And sure, sometimes the case is no... but more often then not, every time I have hit him in a situation, he's saved me those games and I came back to stabilize and win.
Ok, now that I have chimed in on a few other debated things... I got a few questions for you guys.
#1: Jace Mindsculpter: Last week mostly due to bad luck, this guy completely raped me. I was mana screwed, couldn't get to a blue mana early enough (Which incidently doesn't hardly ever happen) and he dropped Mindsculpter and kept the Blue away from me. Never saw any other form of removal that could handle it. Sure this is the worst case scenario, but it started making me wonder. In my version I don't have enough PW answers. I run the Lightning Bolts, the Tar Pits, and the Ultimatum and Earthquakes can be redirected. so I thought really I have plenty of removal...
So heres a curve ball? Since I am somewhat poor, and can't add Mindsculpters to my list, the PW rule where 2 PWs of the same type can't be on the battlefield at the same time... Using this rule, sticking Jace 1.0 in my deck could be a decent answer? I drop him turn 3, they will be forced to deal with it or just quite frankly not even play their Jace 2.0. If they drop theirs first, I drop mine and remove it. And in all other matchups, its another draw engine... Thoughts?
Into the Roil: How come not many run this? With the Firewalkers having Pro Red, and other things having Pro Black, most decks I have seen run Bolts, Earthquakes, and Terminates as the main portion of removal. Into the Roil is that odd ball can't call it removal spell, but it'll help you to work around those pesky critters or even non critters that are hard to deal with. Its even an answer to a PW, bounce it, when they try to replay it, save a counter. Its in my honest opinion good utility if you are missing the answer card to whatever it is they are doing. And if kicked, its extra CA.
Oh, and heres my decklist, and sorry for writting alot.
Creatures: 9
Sphinx of Jwar Isle x2
Calcite Snapper x4
Sphinx of Lost Truths x3
My Grixis uses 2 Jace 2.0 and 2 Sorin and it's worked wonderful so far.
Also running Calcite Snapper; which is surprisingly amazing. Especially since a lot of local players are running allies now it lets me keep Jace etc out without to much worry about countering lowbie chumps as i build up his -12 which oddly so far I have been surprised I've gotten it off. (or late game to keep picking up 3 put two back and get a cruel etc or get 3 good spells and put two lands from hand down then play treasure hunt etc)
I feel Jace is solid Ism still trying this deck out to smooth out bumps so... Friday will be a better test; I don't think I will possibly ever run 4 of Jace 2.0 in Grixis.
Edit:
Also to put in for Sorin staying around etc he works wonders against all the life gain by allies, mmm cut them from 50 etc to 10 life. Just fun to annoy them with it then take the game and what not.
The card's extra counter is pretty negligible in my experience. It only matters against cascade. Aside from extreme meta issues, jund isn't going to make up more than about 33% of the meta a mid to high level events. Naya isn't played nearly as much anymore. I just don't like the manascrew potential from the card at all. I think that this is relevant now, especially because some of decks are opting to run tectonic edge.
The R difference from Cancel shouldn't discourage you from running it opposed to running its counterpart, cancel. the UU is more of a concern than the R and the potential to stop a cascade is definately worth the "r" you are so terrified of being screwed by. How is tectonic edge related to playing DN? Are you honestly referring to tectonic edge denying you from getting a single red source? Out of all of the minimum 10 sources of red in the deck?
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Quote from badjuju »
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
The R difference from Cancel shouldn't discourage you from running it opposed to running its counterpart, cancel. the UU is more of a concern than the R and the potential to stop a cascade is definately worth the "r" you are so terrified of being screwed by. How is tectonic edge related to playing DN? Are you honestly referring to tectonic edge denying you from getting a single red source? Out of all of the minimum 10 sources of red in the deck?
I'm complaining because I've had bad experiences with the card. It's a pain when someone plays their MD spreading seas or SB goblin ruinblaster denies the counterspell and drops ajani vengeant/jace 2.0 or really anything else powerful. It's kind of hard to like the card when you play UR runeflare trap and can't combo off in time since you can't play a counterspell because you need 3 red sources to combo off with counter backup. And for obvious reasons, mana commitments are obviously easier to hit in that deck. I have other reasons too.
Aside from that, 10 red sources, are you seriously saying that that will get me by? You'll get one roughly once every 5 or 6 turns and even less often if you already used a fetchland. All some decks need is a turn or two without you having a red source to kill you. Keep in mind just how much of your removal is linked up to red. Doing this at least gives some insurance against the above happening. At the very least you get about another turn to dig for solutions/red sources.
More importantly than anything else, consistency is better than potential 9 times out of 10. If you plan on going to big events, it's better to be able to win off of skill and your deck not crapping out on you. This is the real reason that I'm opposed to it.
On another subject, everyone here seems to be running treasure hunt as the primary draw spell. I'm not going to be able to read through the whole thread by Friday and I'm strongly thinking about playing this deck. I'm not really debating it's use, I just want a justification on it being in the deck.
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The truth is double negative is probably better than cancel, but neither are ideal.
This is not a deck where you get colour screwed easily. If you don't have red mana, you're likely not going to win anyway (cut off from terminates, bolts, cruel, & EQ). There are very few times where vs is going to make a huge difference, and countering cascade just makes the jund matchup even easier which helps you diversify your SB a little better.
Regardless, I don't run either because I feel as though a hard counter isn't necessary. I'd only run 2 of in place of essence scatter if I felt as though ES wasn't pulling it's weight. In fact, if this stupid vampire trend keeps up in my locale, I might just use 2x double negatives instead of the regular ess scatters in a futile attempt to get a counter in hand by turn 5 for the always prevalent mind sludge. >_>
Bottom line: if you're going to run a 3 mana hard counter, run the one with more potential applications.
I'm not going to be able to read through the whole thread by Friday and I'm strongly thinking about playing this deck. I'm not really debating it's use, I just want a justification on it being in the deck.
This thread isn't even that big yet.
Treasure hunt synergizes with our deck. Jace's brainstorm, some people run halimar depths, and the fact that we run 26+ lands and NEED to hit a land drop every turn to stay in the game leads up to treasure hunt being ideal. You won't always get multiple cards, however there are enough viable uses for it to justify using it in place of the divination/capsule slot.
@compulsive
control is something that takes time and if you aren't even going to take the time to read the (not that long thread) that sums up the progress and thought process behind the developement of the deck, then you obviously aren't 'that' interested in being successful with this deck. I've been playing this deck for a long time and i've never found a lack of red and 10 red sources minimal i was counting, 4 crumbling, 4 dskull, 2 mountains, not including fetches. I never have mana problems runeflare trap requires heavy red...but this isn't runeflare trap, this is grixis control.
I'm not sure if i am understanding the overall gist of your post but you are against running double negative due to mana problems in a completely different deck?
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Quote from badjuju »
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
im thinking about putting 3 negates in MB instead of SS.. if i did that i wouldswap the 4 negates in the SB and put in SS there.. also i was considering blightning SB for other control matchups, a little worried about letting them get swerved back in my face though.
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:symu::symb:Sculpting Minds, One At A Time:symu::symb:
4-0-0
im thinking about putting 3 negates in MB instead of SS.. if i did that i wouldswap the 4 negates in the SB and put in SS there.. also i was considering blightning SB for other control matchups, a little worried about letting them get swerved back in my face though.
List looks pretty solid/standard if you are deciding between negate and spreading seas i'd definately go with negate. Counters should take spots over land disruption for sure. Sideboard is meta tuned but yours doesn't seem to be spread very widely. You have some anti-jund and anti-control not much else so it seems. Blightning is bad in grixis control, don't play it.
As for my deck: I'm really scared of tectonic edge, i think i'm going to splash 2 plains and 3 marsh flats and run 3 Terra Eternal to protect my deck from ruinblasters and edge. Would my manlands be invincible since it is still a land? Thoughts?
^
You Rage, You Lose. (Someone actually said that i should try that today)
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Quote from badjuju »
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
You no doubt saw the interview with Evan Irwin and Chapin yeah? It helped clear some things up to me but i still can't bring myself about to run the treasure hunt combo. I think you should listen to Chapin as he describes the card's abilities best and make the decision for yourself, i chose to stick with divination.
He is so man, he is mario, and I will tell my opponents such. As and when I bounce their permanent I will exclaim "MARIO" as though he were stomped on by our mighty Jace. Every time someone kill him I will give them 99 USD (not AUS!!!) because their lightning bolt should cost 100 DOLLARS...
Jace even made it into the Teenage Super Hero Mutant Ninja Hero Turtles.
List looks pretty solid/standard if you are deciding between negate and spreading seas i'd definately go with negate. Counters should take spots over land disruption for sure. Sideboard is meta tuned but yours doesn't seem to be spread very widely. You have some anti-jund and anti-control not much else so it seems. Blightning is bad in grixis control, don't play it.
As for my deck: I'm really scared of tectonic edge, i think i'm going to splash 2 plains and 3 marsh flats and run 3 Terra Eternal to protect my deck from ruinblasters and edge. Would my manlands be invincible since it is still a land? Thoughts?
^
You Rage, You Lose. (Someone actually said that i should try that today)
i was thinking negates myself, and yeah i realize my Sb is a little narrow, whats yours like?.
also i dont think splashing white is a good idea as cruel is WAY to color heavy.. if you're going to i would use two BW manlands, they would be indestructible and huge so, why not.
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:symu::symb:Sculpting Minds, One At A Time:symu::symb:
4-0-0
@compulsive
control is something that takes time and if you aren't even going to take the time to read the (not that long thread) that sums up the progress and thought process behind the developement of the deck, then you obviously aren't 'that' interested in being successful with this deck. I've been playing this deck for a long time and i've never found a lack of red and 10 red sources minimal i was counting, 4 crumbling, 4 dskull, 2 mountains, not including fetches. I never have mana problems runeflare trap requires heavy red...but this isn't runeflare trap, this is grixis control.
I'm not sure if i am understanding the overall gist of your post but you are against running double negative due to mana problems in a completely different deck?
On the last bit I was using as as an example of how it's screwed me over when mana commitments are significantly easier to achieve because you are routinely drawing 2-4 cards a turn, and you don't need anything more than 1 red until late in the game.
On the part that I bolded, I can understand not calling fetches mana sources for technical reasons, but for practical reasons, they should be considered mana sources.
Either way, the red sources are succeptible to other problems such as your red sources coming into play tapped (relevant because BBE comes in turn 4), or spreading seas & other LD (meta dependant). Since potentially 8 red sources enter the battlefield tapped, plenty of mana problems can pop up.
As for my deck: I'm really scared of tectonic edge, i think i'm going to splash 2 plains and 3 marsh flats and run 3 Terra Eternal to protect my deck from ruinblasters and edge. Would my manlands be invincible since it is still a land? Thoughts?
I wouldn't stretch the manabase to protect it. You would need 1 of 5 cards in your deck to play it in the first place so I don't think that it will save you too often.
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I don't buy into the idea that Grixis doesn't work without Jace. It worked well before Jace 2.0, so that kind of debunks that whole theory. I've yet to use Jace, but I must admit that he looks very powerful, and will no doubt make Grixis stronger than it was pre-WW. However, the games that I've lost online can't really be attributed to my lack of Jace 2.0. I mean, there's nothing stopping an opponent from double LB'ing at EOT, leaving you tapped out and Jace-less. No single card makes Grixis tick(outside of Cruel of course).
to be fair, the grixis deck you ran pre-WWK isn't close to the deck it is post-WWK. jace is a freaking house, and treasure hunt is in worst-case scenario a two mana cycle.
I've been playing a very similar list and I think 4 Ultimatum is overkill. You don't want to draw them more than once and you absolutely don't want them in your opener.
Basically my list is -2 Cruel Ultimatum, -1 Mind Spring, -1 Sorin, -1 Earthquake, -1 Negate, +2 Essence Scatter (it's huge!), +1 Jace, +3 Ponder.
I'm specially fond of Ponder because it makes the deck run much smoother and synergizes with Treasure Hunt and Jace. This is also the reason I'm fine with running only 2 CU, since you draw ridiculous amounts of cards with Treasure Hunt and you will draw into one of the Ultimatums in a timely manner (which is in my limited experience around Turn 6 or 7).
On Calcite Snapper: I fell in love with this little fella when drafting U at the WWK Release and he shines. The format is so dominated by spot removal that he generates both tempo and virtual card advantage just by sitting in front of you and keeping away Goblins or BBEs. With him out, you can save your removal for opposing flyers, sit back, relax and draw into your game-ender.
Thanks, even if I did say that comment on everything else but the 4 CUs. I've been playing Grixis since October, before it got this competitive. I've played all versions, with the earliest version running Sedraxis Specter and Blightning which I will still never call the Flores build. I've loved that tap-out version and am now playing a version with some permission. 4 has always been the perfect number for me outside of the earliest version I played. To each his own I guess.
And yes, I love Calcite Snapper too, and was one if the card's biggest advocates early on in the old Competitive Grixis thread. I don't get why people still question the card.
to be fair, the grixis deck you ran pre-WWK isn't close to the deck it is post-WWK. jace is a freaking house, and treasure hunt is in worst-case scenario a two mana cycle.
Coming back to redoing my Grixis deck post-WWK I totally agree. When you're stacking Halimar Depths, Jace and Treasure Hunt you really get some great synergy and draw out of it but I think people try to use Treasure Hunt a bit too early as if it's a T2 play when it should be held off for a little bit (I usually play it T5 or so).
I threw the specters in based on some meta changes I am seeing with Eldrazi not getting online fast enough by Turn 3 so with Duress + Specter I can hand-pick and force them to discard hoping to bring them to topdeck mode. I'm going to see how it plays out over the next week.
Here is the latest version of my Grixis Burn. I realize that it is different than Grixis Control but as discussed before, until the Jund forum subtype shows good results, we are forced to share:
I've done a fair amount of testing on MWS and it's been going well. I just want to share the list and comment on a couple cards.
The one-ofs of Mind Spring and Mind Shatter have been a nice addition. Since the both read: "pay 2 and X to gain X-1 card advantage" I thought playing one of each would make sure I don't get 2 of the same in a hand.
I think I am going to test Bit Blast in their place from the sideboard but am hesitant since I've seen a lot of "shroud only" decks. The thought of Bit Blasting into Jace 2.0 or Blightning EOT sounds good though.
I know a lot of people see Clone in the sideboard and are like... "Clone?" but it's actually tested quite well. It helps against ramped Baloths, Thoctars, BSAs. You can clone shroud creatures so it helps with Sphinx. You can clone your own turtle. Clone copies CIP abilities as well so a cloned Broodmate gets you token. Clone on Thrinax is nice too. All in all it is actually very very good with the current decks that are out.
I am simply searching for comments and advice on the deck and especially the side board. I know 90% of the forum is working on the counter version but I would appreciate an outside perspective on this version from a list of intelligent and experienced players and you guys fit the bill. Thanks
Jared
Edits: Clone doesn't cascade and it's Mind Shatter not Mind Warp
i was thinking negates myself, and yeah i realize my Sb is a little narrow, whats yours like?.
also i dont think splashing white is a good idea as cruel is WAY to color heavy.. if you're going to i would use two BW manlands, they would be indestructible and huge so, why not.
Haha the White splash was a joke buddy.
But lemme pull out my sideboard and check...its 11 am so i can't remember lol. Mine is...
Chain reaction might actually find its way in there as a sweeper against the token decks as suggested by another poster.
I WAS KIDDING ABOUT THE WHITE SPLASH, PLEASE DON'T TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY
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Quote from badjuju »
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
If i were to include chain reaction i'd remove the scatter and the negate.
The reason my list got switched around was because i re added the calcite snappers as a 3-of.
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Quote from badjuju »
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
I know a lot of people see Clone in the sideboard and are like... "Clone?" but it's actually tested quite well. It helps against ramped Baloths, Thoctars, BSAs. You can clone shroud creatures so it helps with Sphinx. You can clone your own turtle. Clone copies CIP abilities as well so a cloned Broodmate gets you token. Clone on Thrinax is nice too. All in all it is actually very very good with the current decks that are out.
Wouldn't Mind Control be a better option? The cons are its U more and you don't get the CIP triggers. However, the card advantage it possibly generates is worth it. Instead of copying one of their dudes, you steal it! If they have removal in hand they could just kill the Clone or trade with you, but if you Mind Control one of their dudes and they have to remove it, that's solid card advantage right there...
Wouldn't Mind Control be a better option? The cons are its U more and you don't get the CIP triggers. However, the card advantage it possibly generates is worth it. Instead of copying one of their dudes, you steal it! If they have removal in hand they could just kill the Clone or trade with you, but if you Mind Control one of their dudes and they have to remove it, that's solid card advantage right there...
This is true, but Clone is slightly less likely to be a dead card because you can Clone your own Sphinx/Snapper as well. I don't think that outweighs the CA benefits of Mind Control, but it's worth considering. I don't think either is really that necessary, though. We don't have a common threatening creature with protection from our main removal spells like UWR does in Bloodwitch.
This is true, but Clone is slightly less likely to be a dead card because you can Clone your own Sphinx/Snapper as well. I don't think that outweighs the CA benefits of Mind Control, but it's worth considering. I don't think either is really that necessary, though. We don't have a common threatening creature with protection from our main removal spells like UWR does in Bloodwitch.
Your running the card in the sideboard, so chances are your going to side it in against decks like vamps, jund, junk ect. If they dont have a creature to steal with mind control, you probably already won the game. Therefore mind control is better than clone in the sideboard.
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Quote from thundyr »
Jacerator is an aggro deck - it just wins by attacking the library, it doesn't really control the board other than to play a few Fogs
This is what I am running currently and it's been pretty solid vs. everything I have tested against so far. But still a lot more testing to go. And I just am not a fan of using nighthawk to be honest so I might work something else in there but the mana is easier to fanagle than a gatekeeper which I usually use against other Sphix of Jwar isle etc to make them sac.
I should be running a Halimar Depths but I just have gotten better results w/o it though treasure hunt is more useful with it I just end up using Jace 2.0's 0 ability for it more often than not. (not quite as effective but I don't always fate seal and shoot for the 12 point ability). Also I know not running it hurts my ability to use Treasure Hunt in a more solid manner but as it stands I will keep testing this and toss in one or two if need be.
I don't buy into the idea that Grixis doesn't work without Jace. It worked well before Jace 2.0, so that kind of debunks that whole theory. I've yet to use Jace, but I must admit that he looks very powerful, and will no doubt make Grixis stronger than it was pre-WW. However, the games that I've lost online can't really be attributed to my lack of Jace 2.0. I mean, there's nothing stopping an opponent from double LB'ing at EOT, leaving you tapped out and Jace-less. No single card makes Grixis tick(outside of Cruel of course).
edit: Speaking of Jace, if a Grixis deck is running a playset of him, is there any reason NOT to sub out all of our creatures, and replace them with Persecutor's? I mean, Jace has a built in unsummon, so the drawbacks of Persecutor are easily circumvented in our deck. Unlike other decks, we wouldn't even have to change our deck to make him work, what with all of our removal anyway, plus Jace 2.0 unsummon. I don't know, just seems like adding x4 of both would inject a huge amount of raw power into the deck.
Here's a sample decklist featuring Persector's MB:
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Crumbling Necropolis
4 Swamp
4 Island
2 Mountain
4 Abyssal Persecutor
Planeswalkers: 4
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells: 26
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Treasure Hunt
4 Spreading Seas
3 Terminate
3 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Essence Shatter
3 Negate
2 Double Negative
I have read over half of the posts here and would like to share my opinion and also add a few off the wall ideas of my own.
First things first: The Blightning debate: It maybe a dead debate finally but not quite. I agree 100% that with the way the overall take on this deck, having the Shroud creatures and not dropping any early creatures, you hit them with Blightning tapping out on turn 3 at best, they will dump their removal that is dead cards to them anyways, so as someone has already stated you're not really getting the card advantage for it.
Sedraxis Specter: For a long long long time this was one of the personal touches that I put into my version. Up until after reading a good majority of these posts today in this new thread I decided to opt out on him and try the Snappers. Last week I got raped by Mono White and then I made a play mistake and shoulda pulled Sedraxis for game 2 and didn't. So I am just going to go the Shroud rout with the Turtle and give myself a good early blocker as well for other decks such as RDW and Boros Bushwhackers. I like the idea better, although the person that said Sedraxis in the SB when game 2 most control decks will side out removal, Sedraxis will rape!
The Treasure Hunt debate: I think honestly, if you're running Halamir Depths and Jace 2.0, then Treasure Hunt would probably be a pretty great card. Since you're able to manipulate at least a 3 card advantage off it. Giving you extra lands and a spell if nothing else. But if you are running the older versions of the draw power as I am, IE: Capsule, with no Halamir Depths or Jace 2.0, then I don't think it is better.
Double Negative: I 100% agree that this is basically a Cancel 85% or more of the time. So why not? Then havig that other 15% of the time where it matches up with a Bloodbraid and a Blightning is as someone already said, orgasmic!
Sorin Markov: I have noticed alot of people not liking him either... Personally if you got decent enough draw power and thinning of your deck, 1 Sorin in my honest opinion is plenty. And sure, 1 Sorin more often then not might not see play to change the game either way. However he is such a bad ass that when he does see play, he's worth it. Obviously as some have mentioned, in decks where you're being out aggro'ed, you have Sorin in hand, you evaluate, do I play it? Will gaining 2 life now really help me? And sure, sometimes the case is no... but more often then not, every time I have hit him in a situation, he's saved me those games and I came back to stabilize and win.
Ok, now that I have chimed in on a few other debated things... I got a few questions for you guys.
#1: Jace Mindsculpter: Last week mostly due to bad luck, this guy completely raped me. I was mana screwed, couldn't get to a blue mana early enough (Which incidently doesn't hardly ever happen) and he dropped Mindsculpter and kept the Blue away from me. Never saw any other form of removal that could handle it. Sure this is the worst case scenario, but it started making me wonder. In my version I don't have enough PW answers. I run the Lightning Bolts, the Tar Pits, and the Ultimatum and Earthquakes can be redirected. so I thought really I have plenty of removal...
So heres a curve ball? Since I am somewhat poor, and can't add Mindsculpters to my list, the PW rule where 2 PWs of the same type can't be on the battlefield at the same time... Using this rule, sticking Jace 1.0 in my deck could be a decent answer? I drop him turn 3, they will be forced to deal with it or just quite frankly not even play their Jace 2.0. If they drop theirs first, I drop mine and remove it. And in all other matchups, its another draw engine... Thoughts?
Into the Roil: How come not many run this? With the Firewalkers having Pro Red, and other things having Pro Black, most decks I have seen run Bolts, Earthquakes, and Terminates as the main portion of removal. Into the Roil is that odd ball can't call it removal spell, but it'll help you to work around those pesky critters or even non critters that are hard to deal with. Its even an answer to a PW, bounce it, when they try to replay it, save a counter. Its in my honest opinion good utility if you are missing the answer card to whatever it is they are doing. And if kicked, its extra CA.
Oh, and heres my decklist, and sorry for writting alot.
Creatures: 9
Sphinx of Jwar Isle x2
Calcite Snapper x4
Sphinx of Lost Truths x3
Spells: 21
Cruel Ultimatum x3
Lightning Bolt x4
Earthquake x2
Negate x4
Double Negative x2
Into the Roil x3
Terminate x3
Artifacts: 4
Courier's Capsule x4
Planeswalkers: x1
LAND: x25
x4 Crumbling Necropolis
x3 Scalding Tarn
x3 Drowned Catacomb
x2 Creeping Tar Pit
x4 Dragonskull Summit
x4 Swamp
x3 Island
x2 Mountain
Also running Calcite Snapper; which is surprisingly amazing. Especially since a lot of local players are running allies now it lets me keep Jace etc out without to much worry about countering lowbie chumps as i build up his -12 which oddly so far I have been surprised I've gotten it off. (or late game to keep picking up 3 put two back and get a cruel etc or get 3 good spells and put two lands from hand down then play treasure hunt etc)
I feel Jace is solid Ism still trying this deck out to smooth out bumps so... Friday will be a better test; I don't think I will possibly ever run 4 of Jace 2.0 in Grixis.
Edit:
Also to put in for Sorin staying around etc he works wonders against all the life gain by allies, mmm cut them from 50 etc to 10 life. Just fun to annoy them with it then take the game and what not.
:symb::symr::symg:
Jund
White Wienies
The R difference from Cancel shouldn't discourage you from running it opposed to running its counterpart, cancel. the UU is more of a concern than the R and the potential to stop a cascade is definately worth the "r" you are so terrified of being screwed by. How is tectonic edge related to playing DN? Are you honestly referring to tectonic edge denying you from getting a single red source? Out of all of the minimum 10 sources of red in the deck?
Playing: Standard
UWGMythic ConscriptionUWG
47-4-2
UBR Grixis RBU (Retired) 23-17-2
Playing: EDH
Zur the Enchanter
Malfegor
I'm complaining because I've had bad experiences with the card. It's a pain when someone plays their MD spreading seas or SB goblin ruinblaster denies the counterspell and drops ajani vengeant/jace 2.0 or really anything else powerful. It's kind of hard to like the card when you play UR runeflare trap and can't combo off in time since you can't play a counterspell because you need 3 red sources to combo off with counter backup. And for obvious reasons, mana commitments are obviously easier to hit in that deck. I have other reasons too.
Aside from that, 10 red sources, are you seriously saying that that will get me by? You'll get one roughly once every 5 or 6 turns and even less often if you already used a fetchland. All some decks need is a turn or two without you having a red source to kill you. Keep in mind just how much of your removal is linked up to red. Doing this at least gives some insurance against the above happening. At the very least you get about another turn to dig for solutions/red sources.
More importantly than anything else, consistency is better than potential 9 times out of 10. If you plan on going to big events, it's better to be able to win off of skill and your deck not crapping out on you. This is the real reason that I'm opposed to it.
On another subject, everyone here seems to be running treasure hunt as the primary draw spell. I'm not going to be able to read through the whole thread by Friday and I'm strongly thinking about playing this deck. I'm not really debating it's use, I just want a justification on it being in the deck.
Best video games of all time:
4. Metal Gear Solid
3. Super Mario 64
2. Ocarina of Time
1. Cave Story
^ Seriously, play it and thank me later.
This is not a deck where you get colour screwed easily. If you don't have red mana, you're likely not going to win anyway (cut off from terminates, bolts, cruel, & EQ). There are very few times where vs is going to make a huge difference, and countering cascade just makes the jund matchup even easier which helps you diversify your SB a little better.
Regardless, I don't run either because I feel as though a hard counter isn't necessary. I'd only run 2 of in place of essence scatter if I felt as though ES wasn't pulling it's weight. In fact, if this stupid vampire trend keeps up in my locale, I might just use 2x double negatives instead of the regular ess scatters in a futile attempt to get a counter in hand by turn 5 for the always prevalent mind sludge. >_>
Bottom line: if you're going to run a 3 mana hard counter, run the one with more potential applications.
This thread isn't even that big yet.
Treasure hunt synergizes with our deck. Jace's brainstorm, some people run halimar depths, and the fact that we run 26+ lands and NEED to hit a land drop every turn to stay in the game leads up to treasure hunt being ideal. You won't always get multiple cards, however there are enough viable uses for it to justify using it in place of the divination/capsule slot.
control is something that takes time and if you aren't even going to take the time to read the (not that long thread) that sums up the progress and thought process behind the developement of the deck, then you obviously aren't 'that' interested in being successful with this deck. I've been playing this deck for a long time and i've never found a lack of red and 10 red sources minimal i was counting, 4 crumbling, 4 dskull, 2 mountains, not including fetches. I never have mana problems runeflare trap requires heavy red...but this isn't runeflare trap, this is grixis control.
I'm not sure if i am understanding the overall gist of your post but you are against running double negative due to mana problems in a completely different deck?
Playing: Standard
UWGMythic ConscriptionUWG
47-4-2
UBR Grixis RBU (Retired) 23-17-2
Playing: EDH
Zur the Enchanter
Malfegor
4 Calcite Snapper
2 Sphinx of the Jwar Isle
Spells: 28
4 Terminate
4 Lightning bolt
4 Divination
3 Earthquake
3 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Spreading Seas/Negate
3 Essence Scatter
2 Double Negative
2 Sorin Markov
4 Crumbling Necropolis
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Drowned Catacombs
2 Creeping Tar-pits
4 Islands
3 Mountains
2 Swamps
4 Flashfreeze
4 Negate
4 Duress
3 Swerve
im thinking about putting 3 negates in MB instead of SS.. if i did that i wouldswap the 4 negates in the SB and put in SS there.. also i was considering blightning SB for other control matchups, a little worried about letting them get swerved back in my face though.
4-0-0
List looks pretty solid/standard if you are deciding between negate and spreading seas i'd definately go with negate. Counters should take spots over land disruption for sure. Sideboard is meta tuned but yours doesn't seem to be spread very widely. You have some anti-jund and anti-control not much else so it seems. Blightning is bad in grixis control, don't play it.
As for my deck: I'm really scared of tectonic edge, i think i'm going to splash 2 plains and 3 marsh flats and run 3 Terra Eternal to protect my deck from ruinblasters and edge. Would my manlands be invincible since it is still a land? Thoughts?
^
You Rage, You Lose. (Someone actually said that i should try that today)
Playing: Standard
UWGMythic ConscriptionUWG
47-4-2
UBR Grixis RBU (Retired) 23-17-2
Playing: EDH
Zur the Enchanter
Malfegor
For those interested in the vid,
Link
i was thinking negates myself, and yeah i realize my Sb is a little narrow, whats yours like?.
also i dont think splashing white is a good idea as cruel is WAY to color heavy.. if you're going to i would use two BW manlands, they would be indestructible and huge so, why not.
4-0-0
On the last bit I was using as as an example of how it's screwed me over when mana commitments are significantly easier to achieve because you are routinely drawing 2-4 cards a turn, and you don't need anything more than 1 red until late in the game.
On the part that I bolded, I can understand not calling fetches mana sources for technical reasons, but for practical reasons, they should be considered mana sources.
Either way, the red sources are succeptible to other problems such as your red sources coming into play tapped (relevant because BBE comes in turn 4), or spreading seas & other LD (meta dependant). Since potentially 8 red sources enter the battlefield tapped, plenty of mana problems can pop up.
I wouldn't stretch the manabase to protect it. You would need 1 of 5 cards in your deck to play it in the first place so I don't think that it will save you too often.
Best video games of all time:
4. Metal Gear Solid
3. Super Mario 64
2. Ocarina of Time
1. Cave Story
^ Seriously, play it and thank me later.
to be fair, the grixis deck you ran pre-WWK isn't close to the deck it is post-WWK. jace is a freaking house, and treasure hunt is in worst-case scenario a two mana cycle.
_____________________________________________
Thanks, even if I did say that comment on everything else but the 4 CUs. I've been playing Grixis since October, before it got this competitive. I've played all versions, with the earliest version running Sedraxis Specter and Blightning which I will still never call the Flores build. I've loved that tap-out version and am now playing a version with some permission. 4 has always been the perfect number for me outside of the earliest version I played. To each his own I guess.
And yes, I love Calcite Snapper too, and was one if the card's biggest advocates early on in the old Competitive Grixis thread. I don't get why people still question the card.
Coming back to redoing my Grixis deck post-WWK I totally agree. When you're stacking Halimar Depths, Jace and Treasure Hunt you really get some great synergy and draw out of it but I think people try to use Treasure Hunt a bit too early as if it's a T2 play when it should be held off for a little bit (I usually play it T5 or so).
4 Dragonskull Summit
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Halimar Depths
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Swamp
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
4 Treasure Hunt
4 Essence Scatter
4 Spreading Seas
1 Sorin Markov
2 Chandra Nalaar
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Earthquake
2 Negate
4 Terminate
3 Flashfreeze
2 Swerve
2 Negate
2 Malakir Bloodwitch
2 Sedraxis Specter
I threw the specters in based on some meta changes I am seeing with Eldrazi not getting online fast enough by Turn 3 so with Duress + Specter I can hand-pick and force them to discard hoping to bring them to topdeck mode. I'm going to see how it plays out over the next week.
4 calcite snapper
Spells:
4 lightning bolt
3 earthquake
4 terminate
4 blightning
3 cruel ultimatum
3 burst lightning
4 treasure hunt
1 mind spring
1 mind shatter
3 jace, mind sculptor
Lands:
3 swamp
2 mountain
3 island
4 crumbling necropolis
4 dragonskull summit
4 drowned catacomb
4 scalding tarn
2 creeping tar pit
4 spreading seas
3 magma spray
3 clone
2 deathmark
2 bit blast
1 earthquake
I've done a fair amount of testing on MWS and it's been going well. I just want to share the list and comment on a couple cards.
The one-ofs of Mind Spring and Mind Shatter have been a nice addition. Since the both read: "pay 2 and X to gain X-1 card advantage" I thought playing one of each would make sure I don't get 2 of the same in a hand.
I think I am going to test Bit Blast in their place from the sideboard but am hesitant since I've seen a lot of "shroud only" decks. The thought of Bit Blasting into Jace 2.0 or Blightning EOT sounds good though.
I know a lot of people see Clone in the sideboard and are like... "Clone?" but it's actually tested quite well. It helps against ramped Baloths, Thoctars, BSAs. You can clone shroud creatures so it helps with Sphinx. You can clone your own turtle. Clone copies CIP abilities as well so a cloned Broodmate gets you token. Clone on Thrinax is nice too. All in all it is actually very very good with the current decks that are out.
I am simply searching for comments and advice on the deck and especially the side board. I know 90% of the forum is working on the counter version but I would appreciate an outside perspective on this version from a list of intelligent and experienced players and you guys fit the bill. Thanks
Jared
Edits: Clone doesn't cascade and it's Mind Shatter not Mind Warp
Mind Warp is not T2 legal. I think you mean Mind Shatter...
Haha the White splash was a joke buddy.
But lemme pull out my sideboard and check...its 11 am so i can't remember lol. Mine is...
3 Malakir Bloodwitch
2 Mind Shatter
2 Negate
4 Duress
Chain reaction might actually find its way in there as a sweeper against the token decks as suggested by another poster.
I WAS KIDDING ABOUT THE WHITE SPLASH, PLEASE DON'T TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY
Playing: Standard
UWGMythic ConscriptionUWG
47-4-2
UBR Grixis RBU (Retired) 23-17-2
Playing: EDH
Zur the Enchanter
Malfegor
What are you thinking about removing for Chain Reaction? My sideboard is very similar except -2 Duress -2 Negate, +2 Though Hemorrhage +2 Swerve.
If I had to fit in Chain Reaction, I'd probably do the following:
4 Flashfreeze
2 Duress
1 Swerve
1 Mind Shatter
2 Though Hemhorrage
2 Chain Reaction
I just had a total brainfart, i redid my sideboard just now --
That was the sideboard for my old deck. haha
1 Essence Scatter (3 Maindeck)
1 Negate (3 Maindeck)
2 Spreading Seas (i run two Maindeck)
3 Malakir Bloodwitch
4 Flashfreeze
If i were to include chain reaction i'd remove the scatter and the negate.
The reason my list got switched around was because i re added the calcite snappers as a 3-of.
Playing: Standard
UWGMythic ConscriptionUWG
47-4-2
UBR Grixis RBU (Retired) 23-17-2
Playing: EDH
Zur the Enchanter
Malfegor
Wouldn't Mind Control be a better option? The cons are its U more and you don't get the CIP triggers. However, the card advantage it possibly generates is worth it. Instead of copying one of their dudes, you steal it! If they have removal in hand they could just kill the Clone or trade with you, but if you Mind Control one of their dudes and they have to remove it, that's solid card advantage right there...
This is true, but Clone is slightly less likely to be a dead card because you can Clone your own Sphinx/Snapper as well. I don't think that outweighs the CA benefits of Mind Control, but it's worth considering. I don't think either is really that necessary, though. We don't have a common threatening creature with protection from our main removal spells like UWR does in Bloodwitch.
Your running the card in the sideboard, so chances are your going to side it in against decks like vamps, jund, junk ect. If they dont have a creature to steal with mind control, you probably already won the game. Therefore mind control is better than clone in the sideboard.
3 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
3 Calcite Snapper
Spells:
3 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Earthquake
4 Negate
4 Essence Scatter
4 Treasure Hunt
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
2 Sorin Markov
Land:
4 Crumbling Necropolis
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Dragonskull Summit
3 Drowned Catacombs
3 Terramorphic Expanse
3 Island
3 Moutain
3 Swamp
3 Spreading Seas
3 Fleshbag Maurader
4 Double Negative
2 Swerve
3 Sedraxis Specture
This is what I am running currently and it's been pretty solid vs. everything I have tested against so far. But still a lot more testing to go. And I just am not a fan of using nighthawk to be honest so I might work something else in there but the mana is easier to fanagle than a gatekeeper which I usually use against other Sphix of Jwar isle etc to make them sac.
I should be running a Halimar Depths but I just have gotten better results w/o it though treasure hunt is more useful with it I just end up using Jace 2.0's 0 ability for it more often than not. (not quite as effective but I don't always fate seal and shoot for the 12 point ability). Also I know not running it hurts my ability to use Treasure Hunt in a more solid manner but as it stands I will keep testing this and toss in one or two if need be.
:symb::symr::symg:
Jund
White Wienies