@ Khan - your mana base is almost the same as mine except i'm only running 2 tar pits and an extra dragonskull summit and drowned catacomb in their place. having as many tapped lands as your running seems like it would hurt and slow you down considerably.
Also, i haven't seen anyone running essence scatter due to the fact that we don't need to deal with creatures because of terminate and consume the meek should be mainboard, so if i were you i'd go -2 tar pits + 1 summit +1 catacombs -2 essence scatter +1 negate +1 consume the meek -1 cancel +1 consume the meek
EDIT: I would also drop one ultimatum for an earthquake, since your running 3 sphinx the earthquake should help you clear the board, finish your opponent, and possibly rid yourself of a pesky planeswalker
UWBlade GRWolf Run "It's actually quite simple, but since you've only recently begun to walk upright, it may take some time to explain."—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
@ MrRotten - I see a lot of people running countersquall and if that works more power to you, but personally i think negate is a stronger card. I always find myself leaving a red and a blue/black land open for the negate or terminate so my mana is easier to manipulate and use during my turn as well as my opponents. I also think 3 into the roil is 1 too many. with as much control as we are running you shouldn't need to bounce so much unless your meta is all about super friends. My only real complaint is mind shatter, i tried testing this card so much when i first built the deck and it was almost always a dead card, but seeing as i was playing with ulimatums its probably a good idea for your build.
As for the board duress has always been champ in my sb, especially against any kind of u/w decks and mirror, even eldrazi green to hit their monuments where it hurts. Lastly, is hatcher actually helping you considering your using consume the meek, it just seem kind of counter productive. just trying to help you out
Crusnik, I ran Grixis Control this weekend with both Terminate and Countersquall in it. I had no problem keeping the needed mana up for whichever I needed. The added 2 damage was always very spicy IMO. As for Duress I find this deck really doesn't need it. I never had a problem with U/W's planeswalkers this past weekend. I either countered them, or killed them with Lightning Bolt, Blightning or Creeping Tarpit.
My two losses came vs. Mythic Conscription and Mythic Bant. Mainly because I played poorly and was playing under the mindset of having to kill all their mana creatures. Instead, if I was short on creature kill, I should have held it and killed their Knights or their Conscription target.
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What the Bolas version lacks isn't early game support so much as lack of lifegain. Cruel doesn't just screw your opponent, it brings you back out of burn range and refills your own hand. My matches seemed to improve after putting Sorin in the deck so I bumped him up to 2, but if that doesn't work out I'll cut him back to 1. Anyway, this is what I'm using now.
Bringing Flashfreeze to the main for anti-aggro was much needed. UW can be tough, if the game goes on too long, but after boarding its a much better matchup. The Persecutor is pretty great across the board, coming down early and being generally beastly, especially against red. The Edges I find I don't like, too conditional for me to be screwing my own mana over for. Thoughts or questions welcome.
Lastly, is hatcher actually helping you considering your using consume the meek, it just seem kind of counter productive. just trying to help you out
Hatcher drops 3 spawn tokens, CtM has 3 colorless in its casting cost. Coincidence? I think not. Hatcher doesn't just let you hit Bolas early, it also lets you keep mana up when playing other big spells.
@ MrRotten - I see a lot of people running countersquall and if that works more power to you, but personally i think negate is a stronger card. I always find myself leaving a red and a blue/black land open for the negate or terminate so my mana is easier to manipulate and use during my turn as well as my opponents. I also think 3 into the roil is 1 too many. with as much control as we are running you shouldn't need to bounce so much unless your meta is all about super friends. My only real complaint is mind shatter, i tried testing this card so much when i first built the deck and it was almost always a dead card, but seeing as i was playing with ulimatums its probably a good idea for your build.
As for the board duress has always been champ in my sb, especially against any kind of u/w decks and mirror, even eldrazi green to hit their monuments where it hurts. Lastly, is hatcher actually helping you considering your using consume the meek, it just seem kind of counter productive. just trying to help you out
Honestly COUNTERSQUAL = NEGATE, plain and simple. The only true difference is obviously the BU VS the 1U debate. And the way my mana base rolls out, it works just fine, never had an issue. Theres only 3 Countersqualls, and generally the UB is available to me whenever I needed it. But personally I don't think that either one is stronger then the other, they do the same thing. And like you said, alot of times its best to leave RED open for a Lightning Bolt, so the UB sources are open for a Countersquall.
Just curious... Can you redirect Countersquall to a Planeswalker? Just thought of this.... But regardless, it also pings for damage here and there, so it helps to pull off wins when you aren't able to utilize BOLAS.
Yea, you're probably right... 3 Into the Roils is more then what most run. The only reason I was thinking it was because my roommate built a rogue deck for Gameday and its nasty, and Into the Roil is soooo key in that matchup since it uses lots of ENCH/ARTS and even a bunch of Planeswalkers. Its pretty good and ridiculous, and there just isn't enough in the MB to answer that kind of deck. The same goes with the American Gladiator/Control/Superfriends type of decks too. Those matchups are rough... But you're still right, the better move is to -1 Into the Roil, and I am thinking instead of +1 Terminate, I may look towards SORIN.
Mind Shatter is very good in this deck... And like I pointed out, just like with VAMPS, when they Mind Sludge your hand, if it resolves, that play alone can be game winning. In the Control matchups, if I get a Shatter to resolve, its over, plain and simple. With me messing with their lands, then Shattering their hand, then dropping Bolas, there isn't much they can do.
Duress, yea, you guys are totally right... I honestly think this could be better then running the All is Dust, so due to the fact I ain't going to be able to acquire any for Gameday, this could be a good opportunity to try something else and it might actually prove worthwhile. I think with more time, and when I get All is Dust, it'll still be good in a deck like this... But the idea is to Duress those hard to answer threats, and Counterspells/Purges/Maelstroms, and then Mind Shatter the rest of their hand. Then let Bolas clean up the rest after that...
As for Hatcher being actually helpful? Oh yes, he is... He synergizes so good with Mind Shatters and Springs, and even in the cases where he comes and I need Chump blockers, he's so good for that too. Alot of times I am able to hold off any decks around Turn 5 and 6. All I gotta do is Chump block with the Hatcher, and maybe 1 or 2 tokens, and buy myself that 1 extra turn where it all turns around. Drop my 6th mana, sac 2 tokens, cast Bolas. Its very good!
On regards to Consume the Meek with HATCHER/Sedraxis and it being counterproductive. Honestly it really isn't. Alot of times I will cast a MEEK before a Hatcher since they are both 5CMC to clear a board of any attackers. Then next turn drop the Hatcher. SO on Turn 6 I have a Hatcher + 3 Tokens, and 6 mana. This is generally a good place to be, specially if you have Bolas in hand. Sedraxis has unearth, so Meeking Sedraxis isn't a huge blow either. Preferably I was going with All is Dust in the MEEK slot, but MEEKs turned out to be a better META call. If you Meek a board full of allies, you probably won anyways. Because they lose all their steam, and before I know it I am hard casting Bolas anyways. There are only 2 Meeks, so it doesn't make problems for my board or being a dead card in my hand as often as you may think. BUT: Do you guys think EQ would be better in this slot?
What the Bolas version lacks isn't early game support so much as lack of lifegain. Cruel doesn't just screw your opponent, it brings you back out of burn range and refills your own hand. My matches seemed to improve after putting Sorin in the deck so I bumped him up to 2, but if that doesn't work out I'll cut him back to 1. Anyway, this is what I'm using now.
Bringing Flashfreeze to the main for anti-aggro was much needed. UW can be tough, if the game goes on too long, but after boarding its a much better matchup. The Persecutor is pretty great across the board, coming down early and being generally beastly, especially against red. The Edges I find I don't like, too conditional for me to be screwing my own mana over for. Thoughts or questions welcome.
Sorin: Yea I have really thought about bringing Sorin in the Bolas build as well. I like it! Not sure where I'd find room though... Maybe -1 Into the Roil and +1 Sorin. I've always liked just 1 Sorin, not 2. Let us know how it goes for you.
Flashfreeze: in the main? Thats seriously just a meta call, and my meta, no, that won't work. It'll be a dead card more often then not.
I agree with your assessment on the Bolas build though. Cuz I also think that its not got a lack of early presence, but it does lack something, and you might be right. The LIFE Gain and the DRAW from Cruel, you might be spot on. I had considered Essence Feed as a possible Lifegain source that also produces tokens. But never tried it...
I also noticed, you cut Tectonic Edges?
What do you think about a few of my proposed questions that I had for my list a few posts above?
Cruel is almost uncastable now thanks to the popularity of Spreading Seas. Two of them is nearly always game.
Thankfully, Consuming Vapors is like a mini-Cruel and Sorin Markov is great all around. Life isn't so much a problem.
Planeswalkers are a huge problem without Oblivion Ring, so some kind of disruption in the vein of Duress, Negate/Countersquall, Pithing Needle seems necessary. Nicol Bolas deals with planeswalkers, but not in the face of t3-4 Jace/Elspeth/Ajani.
Took this list to the NQ on Saturday and went 4-3. I saw a lot of the "Tapout Grixis" builds that run Specter, SGC, and Gatekeeper. Lost twice to Jacerator, and to play mistakes in the final roundsince Top 8 was out of my reach I wasn't as careful.
Before my first match, I realised I had put my two Thought Hemmorhages in the wrong sleeves, and being the person I am, I was very reluctant to board them in, although I felt I really should've in a few matches.
I was dreading running into this and Time Sieve, but especially this since I had expected no one to play it, and left Emrakul out of my SB for an extra Flashfreeze,
Game 1: I get no Sphinx or Manlands, get 2x Archive trap'd and Jace B + Mine + font deck me.
SB: +2 Duress, +2 Pithing Needle +1 Negate, +1 Swerve, -2 Essence Scatter, -2 Terminate, -2 Treasure Hunt (Wanted to bring TH in here)
Game 2: Early Duress his mine, counter Font, double bolt, drop Sphinx. Seems he boarded out his Angelsongs after seing no creatures, so I swing for 8 with Tar Pit + Sphinx two turns and win.
SB: None
Game 3: Needle Jace B early, he gets a mine, then lands a Mind Sculptor, I play mine but he negates. Then gets alot of turns with his Time Warp + Twincast + Echo Mage + Emrakul Reshuffling, then exiles my library and Archive Traps what's left.
1-2. (0-1)
Looking forward to this matchup.
Game 1: Seas a land, Terminate leech EOT, Double Neg BBE into Thrinax, Essence Scatter SGC, play Sphinx T6, Sorin T7, put him to 10 then 5, and he scoops.
SB: +4 Flashfreeze, +1 Swerve, -1 Negate, -2 Terminate, -2 Treasure Hunt
Game 2: Ponder, ponder, D. Neg, 4 lands. I keep drawing and Pondering into nothing but lands and a bolt. Get hit by Blightning, I D.Neg a BBE into Leech, then he plays a Bloodwitch, I draw Spreading Seas, he plays Broodmate and swings me down to 13. Next turn I draw Ponder into Sphinx, but he activates a Ravine, swings for 16, puts me to 1 life and then bolts.
SB: None.
Game 3: Seas a Savage lands, then seas Raging Ravine, and he misses his 3rd land drop. I play Mind Sculptor and Fateseal him off lands. At 9, I let him keep Rootbound Crag and I seas it. At 11, I let him keep Swamp. At 13, I let him keep forest, then Double Negative his Maelstrom Pulse and he scoops.
2-1, (1-1)
I sure was happy to see another one of these.
Game 1: I get mill'd.
SB: +1 Negate, +1 Swerve, +2 Duress, +2 Needle, -2 Essence Scatter, -2 Terminate, -2 Treasure Hunt (Once again, refuse to bring in the mis-sleeved TH)
Game 2:Counter mine and Jace B, and bolt him to 17. Drop T6 Sphinx. He plays font and passes. I swing and put him to 11, he time warps, I Swerve it targeting me, he negates, I D. Neg it and win the counter war. Swing for 12 with Sphinx and onto game 3.
SB: None
Game 3: Two mines and a Jace B for him, a needle on Jace B for me. He EOT Into the Roils my needle, and I make the brilliant play mistake of Swerving it at his Jace instead of one of the mines. He Time Warps, negates my counters, and mills me.
1-2, (1-2)
Another match I was looking forward to. Anything but Jacerator was fine by me at this point.
Game 1: He resolves an Elspeth and I put all my efforts into bringing her down. He lands a Baneslayer. I have no terminate for it, and the following turn he lands another Bane, I have nothing. I play Mind Sculptor and return his Bane, and unsummon it again, Double Negative it, but there's still one left, and it kills me.
SB: +3 Bloodwitch, +1 Negate +2 Duress, +2 Needle, -2 Bolt, -2 Essence Scatter, -1 Double Negative, -2 Sphinx, -1 Treasure Hunt
Game 2: Once again Seas + Manascrew + Jace help me take the game, but he eventually O-Rings my Jace, and I have to kill him with Sorin and Tarpits.
SB: None
Game 3: I Negate Elspeth, Duress a 2nd Elspeth, then Needle his Gideon once it's out. Bolt + Tar Pit his mind sculptor then drop my Sorin. He plays Baneslayer, I Cruel + Sorin to bring him down to 3, EQ for 1 the following turn, but he Negates, so I Tar Pit, he Path's it, I negate.
2-1, (2-2)
Game 1: Bolt his Polymorph target, he Vines'd it so in response I terminate. I drop Sorin, put him to 10 then wittle him down.
SB: +2 Duress, +2 Needle, +1 Negate, -2 Essence Scatter, -2 Earthquake, -1 Double Negative
Game 2: He plays two Halimar depths in a row, I ponder on my first turn. T2 I Duress a Negate out of his hand and see 2 Misty Rainforest, so I play a needle on his rainforests, and he's manascrewed until he draws a Khalni Garden, but I've already landed a Sphinx and swing with a 6/2 Lavaclaw for the win.
2-0, (3-2)
Another match I looked forward to.
Game 1: He's on the play, gets 3 mana dorks out T2. I Essence Scatter the incoming Bane T3, then ponder into an Earthquake to wipe out 2 Hierarchs and Bolt his BoP. He lands a Cobra, but I D. Neg the Sovereigns. I get Mindsculptor out and brainstorm into 2 Cruels in a row, then Tar Pit his remaining 6 life.
SB: +3 Bloodwitch, +1 Flashfreeze, -2 Sphinx, -1 Negate, -1 Double Negative,
Game 2: He overextends again, I T2 EOT bolt Birds, and tapout to EQ for 1, taking Hierarch and Cobra. He lands a Mindsculptor. I have no outs for a bit, so he has a board with 2 Hierarchs, 1 Rhox War Monk, and a Dauntless Escort. I EOT Bolt the Escort, then ponder into my second EQ and do it for 4, taking his Jace, and creatures. Cruel, he flashfreezes, but I get a Witch out the next turn, then draw into my Mind Sculptor and brain storm into a 2nd witch, and they bring it home.
2-0, (4-2)
At this point I knew I hadn't made Top 8 so I wasn't as on guard anymore.
Game 1: I bolt, terminate, and EQ his creatures nonstop, counter Ranger, seas his lands. Play Mindsculptor and fateseal until I get to 11, he bolts Jace. I brainstorm into Cruel on like my 20th turn. Play it, play another cruel, and EQ for 7. Loooong game.
SB: +3 Bloodwitch, +2 Needle, -2 Sphinx, -1 Double Negative, -1 Negate, -1 Treasure Hunt
Game 2: He lands an Elspeth, but I needle it. He O Rings my needle. I EQ for 6, taking Elspeth and his Ranger'd creatures. I play Bloodwitch, he swings me down to 1 but I topdeck cruel. He swings again, and I could survive at 1 if I blocked his lynx instead of stoneforge, and since I didn't see the Terramorphic Expanse, I just let the Lynx, Ranger and Kitesail in and lost.
SB: +1 Negate, -1 D. Neg
Game 3: 3 minutes left in the round so we speed through. I'm really out of it by this point and I forget to play a land on two turns, and end up losing.
1-2, (4-3)
That's how it ended up. As much as I like Sphinx, there were a lot of times when I'd rather have played something else. Emrakul in my SB for the Jacerator matchup is a necessity, and I need to run more mainboard negates to deal with the declining popularity of aggro.
Changes I'd make if I had to do it again.
MD: -1 Sphinx, -1 Treasure Hunt, - forgetting land drops, +1 Negate, +1 Suffer the Past
SB: -1 Flashfreeze, -2 wrong sleeves, +1 Emrakul, +2 Good sleeves
More on-topic: I'm not having much of a problem with my Cruel mana, IRL or online, and I have been getting Seas'd a lot. Also, the Bolas list is interesting, I'm definitely going to try it out.
But, ideally, I wish we had signets. I feel the deck would really benefit if it could get Cruel off a turn or two earlier, so I'm going to try experimenting with Obelisk of Grixis.
Sorin: Yea I have really thought about bringing Sorin in the Bolas build as well. I like it! Not sure where I'd find room though... Maybe -1 Into the Roil and +1 Sorin. I've always liked just 1 Sorin, not 2. Let us know how it goes for you.
Flashfreeze: in the main? Thats seriously just a meta call, and my meta, no, that won't work. It'll be a dead card more often then not.
I agree with your assessment on the Bolas build though. Cuz I also think that its not got a lack of early presence, but it does lack something, and you might be right. The LIFE Gain and the DRAW from Cruel, you might be spot on. I had considered Essence Feed as a possible Lifegain source that also produces tokens. But never tried it...
I also noticed, you cut Tectonic Edges?
What do you think about a few of my proposed questions that I had for my list a few posts above?
On Sorin: I feel if a card is only worth running one of, its value is questionable. They replaced 1x Hatcher and 1x Treasure Hunt, both of which I found myself drawing into too much.
On Flashfreeze: How many decks do you have trouble with that run neither red or green compared to those that do? I could argue that Terminate is a meta call because some decks might not run creatures. Flashfreeze hits bant, jund, mythic and rdw among others. If your meta runs few to none of those, then yeah, taking them out would be a good call.
On Essence Feed: No. If you're concerned about life and can't put Sorin in, try Nighthawks, which I'm considering using to keep casting costs down.
On Edges: Yes, I cut them. The opportunity to ruin my Op's mana is a moot point if mine suffers too.
Regarding your questions:I don't like Into The Roil, so I'll always say replace it. I keep trying to fit it in, but I never want to see it over something else. Terminate is better against creatures and I use AiD or direct damage on planeswalkers. For sideboard tech, try out Swerve. It counters counterspells, destroys people who play heavy discard spells and turns your OPs removal against them. If it doesn't work out for you, try Thought hemorrhage, it combos pretty well with duress.
It happens, but the amount of times you get hit with 4/4 flying soldiers and elementals happens more frequently while you're struggling with mana. Some builds even run Tectonic Edges.
How are you struggling with mana in a U/B/R deck where they change one of your lands into an ISLAND? The best they can do is take away a Red/Black dual land or blow up a man land. I had both happen to me this weekend and I still never had mana issues because of either Spreading Seas or Tectonic Edge. I even had my Creeping Tar Pit get hit with Celestial Purge and it wasn't an issue.
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Not easier, but by far not impossible. Another reason to look at working Terramorphic Expanses or Evolving Wilds into manabases, even if your deck does not run Grim Discovery, is the advantage of being able to get Swamps, and the added resistance to Ruinblaster and Tectonic Edge. The CiPT has never really slowed me down too much, and can be mitigated by planning ahead accordingly.
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THE THOUGHTHAMMER HAS SPOKEN!
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
On Sorin: I feel if a card is only worth running one of, its value is questionable. They replaced 1x Hatcher and 1x Treasure Hunt, both of which I found myself drawing into too much.
Yea I was starting to think this... Was looking at possibly putting in x1 Sorin in this list, however in my old CRUEL build where I ran x1 Sorin, there was a much much better draw engine and I saw him quite of bit. In the Bolas build that I am trying to run with, the draw engine is a bunch of Cantrips and big Mind Springs, other then that, thats it.... So a x1 Sorin probably won't cut it...
On Flashfreeze: How many decks do you have trouble with that run neither red or green compared to those that do? I could argue that Terminate is a meta call because some decks might not run creatures. Flashfreeze hits bant, jund, mythic and rdw. If your meta runs few to none of those, then yeah, taking them out would be a good call.
There are alot of UW/x variants at my shop. Some JUND, some RDW and even Boros, but alot of WHITE, UW, UWr, stuff like that. It seems to be moving more towards control then aggro. Course thats not a very good assessment, since there are still about 25 to 30+ people each Friday. The ones at the top seem to be more control, but getting there you have to field your way through tons of AGGRO. Pretty diverse meta... Still not enough to MB Flashfreeze and remove Terminates though. And just to be clear, I wasn't knocking your choice, if it works for you, great.
On Essence Feed: No. If you're concerned about life and can't put Sorin in, try Nighthawks, which I'm considering using to keep casting costs down.
Lifegain isn't as huge as a problem as it maybe for some. I run Consuming Vapors in my MB, so I do have some access to Lifegain. I considered Sorin, but as a x1 of in a deck that runs a low quality draw engine, probably not going to be all that effective. For the use of Essence Feed, I never said use it or we need it, when I first started putting the deck on paper, it was a consideration, but never tried it for obvious reasons.
On Edges: Yes, I cut them. The opportunity to ruin my Op's mana is a moot point if mine suffers too.
The way I see it, with Hatchers: When you sac a EDGE to destroy your OPs land, you replace it with 3 Hatcher Tokens... SORTA..... I know it sounds iffy, but thats kinda my mindset. I run Hatchers, so sure it puts me a TURN back, but how baddly is it screwing them up? More often then not, with Spreading Seas backing it up, its screwing them up pretty bad. Atleast from what I found... There are times the Tectonics caused color issues for me, but so far its been few and far between.
BUT again, not knocking anything you're doing, I think your list is great.
Regarding your questions:I don't like Into The Roil, so I'll always say replace it. I keep trying to fit it in, but I never want to see it over something else. Terminate is better against creatures and I use AiD or direct damage on planeswalkers. For sideboard tech, try out Swerve. It counters counterspells, destroys people who play heavy discard spells and turns your OPs removal against them.
Into the Roil is most importantly our answer to those trouble cards. Trouble cards meaning we run lots of Creature removal, and even ways of dealing with Planeswalkers. But there isn't a whole lot going on in the area of dealing with Enchantments and Artifacts. Sure in our Bolas build, Bolas does, but he doesn't come online till MID-LATE. So I found that having some sort of all around utility bounce spell is needed. But that could be just me......
AiD is absolutely great! Wish I could acquire my 2 that I wanted for my deck. Although my shop is filled with alot of heavy fast aggro in the beginning stages of a FNM, there are still those top control decks that seem to do great every week. I felt that it would be the same issue the Cleveland Cavs had. They bring in Shaq to deal with Dwight Howard, but didn't even beat the Celtics to get a chance to face the Magic. So it was moot.... All is Dust is great, it has its purpose, but IMHO its a tad slower when trying to answer to quicker aggro matchups. So my AiD is in the sideboard, will come in against slower aggro and/or Control decks.
Swerve sounds interesting... Not sure where i'd fit it, my SB is pretty tight right now. I really like what Duress does for Grixis builds in general. Ruinblaster is a keeper since that is part of one of the strategies I wanted to accomplish. Fissure Vent is my answer to Pithing Needle mostly, but any other pesky artifacts. And bonus, it also can kill Man Lands. Flashfreeze for obvious reasons... Ulamog can honestly GO, and I kinda like having the extra Consume the Meek for added protection VS allies and certain other matchups just in case. Sideboard is pretty tight...
Thanks for the suggestions!
And again, wasn't knocking your list by no means. I honestly think your list is probably better.
There are alot of UW/x variants at my shop. Some JUND, some RDW and even Boros, but alot of WHITE, UW, UWr, stuff like that. It seems to be moving more towards control then aggro. Course thats not a very good assessment, since there are still about 25 to 30+ people each Friday. The ones at the top seem to be more control, but getting there you have to field your way through tons of AGGRO. Pretty diverse meta... Still not enough to MB Flashfreeze and remove Terminates though. And just to be clear, I wasn't knocking your choice, if it works for you, great.
Into the Roil is most importantly our answer to those trouble cards. Trouble cards meaning we run lots of Creature removal, and even ways of dealing with Planeswalkers. But there isn't a whole lot going on in the area of dealing with Enchantments and Artifacts. Sure in our Bolas build, Bolas does, but he doesn't come online till MID-LATE. So I found that having some sort of all around utility bounce spell is needed. But that could be just me......
Swerve sounds interesting... Not sure where i'd fit it, my SB is pretty tight right now. I really like what Duress does for Grixis builds in general. Ruinblaster is a keeper since that is part of one of the strategies I wanted to accomplish. Fissure Vent is my answer to Pithing Needle mostly, but any other pesky artifacts. And bonus, it also can kill Man Lands. Flashfreeze for obvious reasons... Ulamog can honestly GO, and I kinda like having the extra Consume the Meek for added protection VS allies and certain other matchups just in case. Sideboard is pretty tight...
Lol, I'm not saying to remove terminates, I always run a full 4 MB, I was just making a point. You can make an argument against any card, they all have matchups where they don't work, that's why we have a sideboard. For ItR, my main problem is it's only half an answer, they can just play the problem card again afterwards, and though it cantrips, I still have reservations on using it. As for your SB, you JUST said you had 2 open slots lol. Try them, if you dont like either, go +1 squall, +1 duress
I did mean multiple Spreading Seas, not just one. You don't exactly want more than two islands. Maybe you've played against people who don't know how to put pressure or target the right lands, I don't know, but casting Cruel has definitely not been made easier by Spreading Seas.
What's your mana base? I find the best way around this is using only Creeping Tar Pits for manlands. That way they are forced to choose between stopping our mana or our manlands with seas, and we're left with an out no matter which they choose.
It's not that I can't cast Cruel. It's that I can't cast cruel on t7. By then they have a board of planeswalkers, which I can't deal with and get overrun.
Does it happen often? its easier to get cut off red than blue, you could cut 1 or 2 blue sources for red.
It's not that I can't cast Cruel. It's that I can't cast cruel on t7. By then they have a board of planeswalkers, which I can't deal with and get overrun.
If you want to cast Cruel on turn 7, you should probably be playing 27-28 land (along with a nice helping of card drawing). 25 isn't even going to reliably hit 5 mana on turn 5.
Playing more land should help mitigate Spreading Seas-induced colorscrew, as well.
Honestly I don't see where a single Double Negative is going to do you much good, I would probably personally drop a thought hemhorrage and a double negative for 2 duress, or maybe even two Vampire Hexmage, you probably run into the same agro headaches as I do
So i lost most of the day yesterday to Spreading seas. Played quite a few Tapout and Superfriends lists. How do I mitigate this weakness to SS? My mana base is pretty solid, It is basically the amsterdam list. Should I put deprive in my baord perhaps?
Personally, I'm loving All is Dust, I maindeck it as a meta preference, but its nuts against blue/white because it eats spreading seas, shroud creatures, oblivion rings, and planeswalkers all in one fell swoop, and the best part? All colorless. If you have 7 mana you can play this spell.
It's not that I can't cast Cruel. It's that I can't cast cruel on t7. By then they have a board of planeswalkers, which I can't deal with and get overrun.
At the very least you should swap a Tarn or two for Drowned Catacombs. And consider Lavaclaw Reaches. Also, you should probably go to 26 lands, if not 27. I ran a Cruel version at Regionals and never had an issue making UUBBBRR when I had 7 lands in play.
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I was pretty excited for Modern.
Not so much anymore.
I see a lot of great Grixis lists here, and I have read a bunch of the thread, but not the entire 170 pages. Why isn't anyone using Pyroclasm to kill multiple manadorks and other early game creatures cast by quicker decks? they have been great for me in MWS testing as a 3-of alongside 4 EQ.
In summation.....Star Trek wins a prolonged naval battle against superior, yet less technologically advanced, numbers, with Picard leading the assault, while Kirk takes your soul by laying out Solo and probably his manservant Chewy as well, before impregnating and ditching your Princess.
Again, I can't cast Cruel on t7 when my lands are turned into islands. I have zero issues otherwise.
I should add that I play Ponder + Treasure Hunt alongside Jace, so the amount of mana usually isn't an issue. It's getting the right mana on t7 while being clobbered by Spreading Seas, 1/1 soldiers and other shenanigans.
Even when I manage to resolve a Cruel it won't stop them from dominating the board. They can simply keep Mind Spring and refuel their hand. Their ability to ramp really has a huge advantage over us.
That just seems odd to me. Maybe your list is wildly different than mine, but even with Spreading Seas and their acceleration U/W is a pretty easy matchup for me, and the only thing that makes UWr really difficult is Ajani V and the multiple-angled planeswalker attack. And if they tap-out for Mindspring, so be it. We've still got Cruel, Nicol B, and access to counters (if that's your style. It is mine, and they were pretty good all day)
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I was pretty excited for Modern.
Not so much anymore.
I play 4 hard counters. They play 8-12 planeswalkers. I can't deal with them all. It's especially difficult on the draw. Eight counters after sbing, but they have access to Negate as well.
Perhaps it's time to maindeck Duress once again.
Do you run any creatures aside from manlands and any burn? My list is a couple pages back if you want to look at it, but between testing and the matches I've played in tournaments I'm about 75/35 pre-board and 60/40 (maybe a little worse) post-board.
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I was pretty excited for Modern.
Not so much anymore.
So I know that alot of you don't like the Bolas build...
And I know that MOST of you prefer the Cruel version over this build...
I get that...
However as having been a person that has ran just about every variation out there, I been wanting to try something different and a bit more unique with the Bolas build. When I proposed it a while back ago, it got immediately crushed by popular opinion. Fair enough...
I think this build does a bunch of things very well, and no one can't argue that Bolas wins when he resolves.
So with that being said... I ask you to set aside your personal preference to help and give me a few suggestions.
FIRST: 3 Into the Roil VS 3 Terminate - It seems to me that 3/3 split can be good, although I also think that 2 Into the Roil for a 4th Terminate could be better. Agreed?
SECOND: All is Dust in the sideboard - I will NOT be able to acquire 2 All is Dust for the sideboard. I mostly liked it for all of the CONTROL matchups that run multiple Enchantments and multiple Planeswalkers. IE: American Control/Gladiators, any UW/x variants, etc.. etc.. Its tested out very good when it resolves! However I don't think NOT having All is Dust is going to break me, in fact might be an opportunity to try something else. My thought process is x4 Duress to remove those problem cards from their hands, and then if Bolas resolves, then clean up whatevers left. Agreed?
THIRD: So with -2 All is Dust from the sideboard, doing +1 Duress putting that to x4. Where should I go with the remaining 1 slot thats open? 4th Ruinblaster? Add an extra Countersquall? Or anything in particular that can be good as a x1 of?
Other then that, those are the only 2 dilemmas I'm dealing with ATM... Other then that, I like the idea, I like the way its been flowing, and I think its kookie enough to be considered rogue for Gameday.
Thanks in advance for any feedback/input anyone can give...
Well, first up, mad respect to you for making a good effort to explain your choices rather than being all "here's a decklist what do you think durrr?"
This thread has enough of those already.
The bottom line for me, though, is that in games I tested dragon 'walker in, he eats a land.
He then proceeds to get o-ringed or purged.
With cards like oblivion ring EVERYWHERE, I just don't see why people would play Nico over untargetable finishers + cruel. And Emrakul's hatcher - Turn 5 is when a person needs to EQ, y'know?
I think that there could be quite an argument for the chalice in there, though. Turn 5 Bolas would probably be able to nuke their white before they can hit the jackpot
Well, first up, mad respect to you for making a good effort to explain your choices rather than being all "here's a decklist what do you think durrr?"
This thread has enough of those already.
The bottom line for me, though, is that in games I tested dragon 'walker in, he eats a land.
He then proceeds to get o-ringed or purged.
With cards like oblivion ring EVERYWHERE, I just don't see why people would play Nico over untargetable finishers + cruel. And Emrakul's hatcher - Turn 5 is when a person needs to EQ, y'know?
I think that there could be quite an argument for the chalice in there, though. Turn 5 Bolas would probably be able to nuke their white before they can hit the jackpot
I agree with most of this post, excepting the Chalice question. I feel like with Grixis you might as well be playing Cruel, and since Chalice doesn't help Cruel at all you might as well be playing something of value over it. Vapors, Quake, something like that. I mean, don't get me wrong, and early Bolas could be incredible, but my experiences have been similar to yours in that Bolas either gets Duressed away, O-ring'd, Countered, or he just runs away with the game. Even early against decks that can O-ring he won't be able to remove enough white sources, given that UW and UWr decks are solidly in the more white than blue category.
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I was pretty excited for Modern.
Not so much anymore.
A few people have mentioned playing regular-Jace along with Sculptor-Jace in the past, and I think it's something worth trying out. The way I see it, it's pretty much a straight upgrade to Divination. While it may delay your own Mind Sculptor, it can preempt an opposing Jace on the draw or blow up one already on the board. Plus, it's not like having it stick is some kind of terrible tragedy, anyway.
A few people have mentioned playing regular-Jace along with Sculptor-Jace in the past, and I think it's something worth trying out. The way I see it, it's pretty much a straight upgrade to Divination. While it may delay your own Mind Sculptor, it can preempt an opposing Jace on the draw or blow up one already on the board. Plus, it's not like having it stick is some kind of terrible tragedy, anyway.
I haven't played many games with this list yet, only one FNM where I beat Vampires, Mill, Homebrew Bant Planeswalkers, and got blown away by RDW.
Has anyone else tried playing with extra Jaces? I don't have much of a sample size to offer, but they've done pretty well for me so far.
I think you've created some dead card instances and some counter productive things with having BOTH Jaces running together... *shrug* Good luck with it though!
I think for this strategy to work to the most effective of ways... When you're on the play, Jace 2.0 is golden, when you're on the draw, maybe side out 2 of your Jace 2.0, bringing in 2 or 3 Jace Beleren as pseudo removal for their Jace 2.0, and it helps with the draw engine, where you eventually get your own Jace 2.0 and play it... *shrug* Sounds like alot of things to deal with just to deal with their Jace. Just kill out?
I think you've created some dead card instances and some counter productive things with having BOTH Jaces running together... *shrug* Good luck with it though!
I think for this strategy to work to the most effective of ways... When you're on the play, Jace 2.0 is golden, when you're on the draw, maybe side out 2 of your Jace 2.0, bringing in 2 or 3 Jace Beleren as pseudo removal for their Jace 2.0, and it helps with the draw engine, where you eventually get your own Jace 2.0 and play it... *shrug* Sounds like alot of things to deal with just to deal with their Jace. Just kill out?
Well, I started playing Beleren because I wasn't happy with any of the other draw spells currently available, so I'm mostly using him as a replacement for Divination. The fact that he can mess with opposing Jaces is basically a bonus.
I haven't run into the multiple dead Jace problem yet, partly because one or the other tends to die fairly often. Plus, you could always just draw Beleren to death or, if 2.0 is on the board, brainstorm the copies away.
But anyway, more testing~
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Also, i haven't seen anyone running essence scatter due to the fact that we don't need to deal with creatures because of terminate and consume the meek should be mainboard, so if i were you i'd go -2 tar pits + 1 summit +1 catacombs -2 essence scatter +1 negate +1 consume the meek -1 cancel +1 consume the meek
EDIT: I would also drop one ultimatum for an earthquake, since your running 3 sphinx the earthquake should help you clear the board, finish your opponent, and possibly rid yourself of a pesky planeswalker
GRWolf Run
"It's actually quite simple, but since you've only recently begun to walk upright, it may take some time to explain."—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
Crusnik, I ran Grixis Control this weekend with both Terminate and Countersquall in it. I had no problem keeping the needed mana up for whichever I needed. The added 2 damage was always very spicy IMO. As for Duress I find this deck really doesn't need it. I never had a problem with U/W's planeswalkers this past weekend. I either countered them, or killed them with Lightning Bolt, Blightning or Creeping Tarpit.
My two losses came vs. Mythic Conscription and Mythic Bant. Mainly because I played poorly and was playing under the mindset of having to kill all their mana creatures. Instead, if I was short on creature kill, I should have held it and killed their Knights or their Conscription target.
Standard
:symu::symb::symr:Grixis Control:symu::symb::symr:
:symw::symu:Tapout:symw::symu:
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
4 Spreading Seas
3 Treasure Hunt
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
3 Flashfreeze
2 Consume The Meek
2 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
2 All Is Dust
2 Sorin Markov
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Dragonskull Summit
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Mountain
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Negate
3 Swerve
3 Malakir Bloodwitch
2 Consuming Vapors
2 Mind Shatter
1 Consume The Meek
1 Flashfreeze
EDIT
Hatcher drops 3 spawn tokens, CtM has 3 colorless in its casting cost. Coincidence? I think not. Hatcher doesn't just let you hit Bolas early, it also lets you keep mana up when playing other big spells.
360-cube - Suggestions welcome!
Honestly COUNTERSQUAL = NEGATE, plain and simple. The only true difference is obviously the BU VS the 1U debate. And the way my mana base rolls out, it works just fine, never had an issue. Theres only 3 Countersqualls, and generally the UB is available to me whenever I needed it. But personally I don't think that either one is stronger then the other, they do the same thing. And like you said, alot of times its best to leave RED open for a Lightning Bolt, so the UB sources are open for a Countersquall.
Just curious... Can you redirect Countersquall to a Planeswalker? Just thought of this.... But regardless, it also pings for damage here and there, so it helps to pull off wins when you aren't able to utilize BOLAS.
Yea, you're probably right... 3 Into the Roils is more then what most run. The only reason I was thinking it was because my roommate built a rogue deck for Gameday and its nasty, and Into the Roil is soooo key in that matchup since it uses lots of ENCH/ARTS and even a bunch of Planeswalkers. Its pretty good and ridiculous, and there just isn't enough in the MB to answer that kind of deck. The same goes with the American Gladiator/Control/Superfriends type of decks too. Those matchups are rough... But you're still right, the better move is to -1 Into the Roil, and I am thinking instead of +1 Terminate, I may look towards SORIN.
Mind Shatter is very good in this deck... And like I pointed out, just like with VAMPS, when they Mind Sludge your hand, if it resolves, that play alone can be game winning. In the Control matchups, if I get a Shatter to resolve, its over, plain and simple. With me messing with their lands, then Shattering their hand, then dropping Bolas, there isn't much they can do.
Duress, yea, you guys are totally right... I honestly think this could be better then running the All is Dust, so due to the fact I ain't going to be able to acquire any for Gameday, this could be a good opportunity to try something else and it might actually prove worthwhile. I think with more time, and when I get All is Dust, it'll still be good in a deck like this... But the idea is to Duress those hard to answer threats, and Counterspells/Purges/Maelstroms, and then Mind Shatter the rest of their hand. Then let Bolas clean up the rest after that...
As for Hatcher being actually helpful? Oh yes, he is... He synergizes so good with Mind Shatters and Springs, and even in the cases where he comes and I need Chump blockers, he's so good for that too. Alot of times I am able to hold off any decks around Turn 5 and 6. All I gotta do is Chump block with the Hatcher, and maybe 1 or 2 tokens, and buy myself that 1 extra turn where it all turns around. Drop my 6th mana, sac 2 tokens, cast Bolas. Its very good!
On regards to Consume the Meek with HATCHER/Sedraxis and it being counterproductive. Honestly it really isn't. Alot of times I will cast a MEEK before a Hatcher since they are both 5CMC to clear a board of any attackers. Then next turn drop the Hatcher. SO on Turn 6 I have a Hatcher + 3 Tokens, and 6 mana. This is generally a good place to be, specially if you have Bolas in hand. Sedraxis has unearth, so Meeking Sedraxis isn't a huge blow either. Preferably I was going with All is Dust in the MEEK slot, but MEEKs turned out to be a better META call. If you Meek a board full of allies, you probably won anyways. Because they lose all their steam, and before I know it I am hard casting Bolas anyways. There are only 2 Meeks, so it doesn't make problems for my board or being a dead card in my hand as often as you may think. BUT: Do you guys think EQ would be better in this slot?
Sorin: Yea I have really thought about bringing Sorin in the Bolas build as well. I like it! Not sure where I'd find room though... Maybe -1 Into the Roil and +1 Sorin. I've always liked just 1 Sorin, not 2. Let us know how it goes for you.
Flashfreeze: in the main? Thats seriously just a meta call, and my meta, no, that won't work. It'll be a dead card more often then not.
I agree with your assessment on the Bolas build though. Cuz I also think that its not got a lack of early presence, but it does lack something, and you might be right. The LIFE Gain and the DRAW from Cruel, you might be spot on. I had considered Essence Feed as a possible Lifegain source that also produces tokens. But never tried it...
I also noticed, you cut Tectonic Edges?
What do you think about a few of my proposed questions that I had for my list a few posts above?
I was able to cast Cruel Ultimatum this past weekend at our Nationals Qualifier with a Spreading Seas on my Creeping Tar Pit vs. U/W Control and I had exactly 7 lands in play.
Standard
:symu::symb::symr:Grixis Control:symu::symb::symr:
:symw::symu:Tapout:symw::symu:
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
3 Cruel Ultimatum
Counters (7)
4 Double Negative
2 Essence Scatter
1 Negate
Removal (9)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
2 Earthquake
Planeswalkers (3)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sorin Markov
Card Draw (10)
4 Ponder
4 Spreading Seas
2 Treasure Hunt
4 Crumbling Necropolis
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Drowned Catacomb
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Dragonskull Summit
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Swamp
3 Island
3 Mountain
4 Flashfreeze
3 Malakir Bloodwitch
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thought Hemorrhage
1 Negate
1 Swerve
Before my first match, I realised I had put my two Thought Hemmorhages in the wrong sleeves, and being the person I am, I was very reluctant to board them in, although I felt I really should've in a few matches.
I was dreading running into this and Time Sieve, but especially this since I had expected no one to play it, and left Emrakul out of my SB for an extra Flashfreeze,
Game 1: I get no Sphinx or Manlands, get 2x Archive trap'd and Jace B + Mine + font deck me.
SB: +2 Duress, +2 Pithing Needle +1 Negate, +1 Swerve, -2 Essence Scatter, -2 Terminate, -2 Treasure Hunt (Wanted to bring TH in here)
Game 2: Early Duress his mine, counter Font, double bolt, drop Sphinx. Seems he boarded out his Angelsongs after seing no creatures, so I swing for 8 with Tar Pit + Sphinx two turns and win.
SB: None
Game 3: Needle Jace B early, he gets a mine, then lands a Mind Sculptor, I play mine but he negates. Then gets alot of turns with his Time Warp + Twincast + Echo Mage + Emrakul Reshuffling, then exiles my library and Archive Traps what's left.
1-2. (0-1)
Looking forward to this matchup.
Game 1: Seas a land, Terminate leech EOT, Double Neg BBE into Thrinax, Essence Scatter SGC, play Sphinx T6, Sorin T7, put him to 10 then 5, and he scoops.
SB: +4 Flashfreeze, +1 Swerve, -1 Negate, -2 Terminate, -2 Treasure Hunt
Game 2: Ponder, ponder, D. Neg, 4 lands. I keep drawing and Pondering into nothing but lands and a bolt. Get hit by Blightning, I D.Neg a BBE into Leech, then he plays a Bloodwitch, I draw Spreading Seas, he plays Broodmate and swings me down to 13. Next turn I draw Ponder into Sphinx, but he activates a Ravine, swings for 16, puts me to 1 life and then bolts.
SB: None.
Game 3: Seas a Savage lands, then seas Raging Ravine, and he misses his 3rd land drop. I play Mind Sculptor and Fateseal him off lands. At 9, I let him keep Rootbound Crag and I seas it. At 11, I let him keep Swamp. At 13, I let him keep forest, then Double Negative his Maelstrom Pulse and he scoops.
2-1, (1-1)
I sure was happy to see another one of these.
Game 1: I get mill'd.
SB: +1 Negate, +1 Swerve, +2 Duress, +2 Needle, -2 Essence Scatter, -2 Terminate, -2 Treasure Hunt (Once again, refuse to bring in the mis-sleeved TH)
Game 2:Counter mine and Jace B, and bolt him to 17. Drop T6 Sphinx. He plays font and passes. I swing and put him to 11, he time warps, I Swerve it targeting me, he negates, I D. Neg it and win the counter war. Swing for 12 with Sphinx and onto game 3.
SB: None
Game 3: Two mines and a Jace B for him, a needle on Jace B for me. He EOT Into the Roils my needle, and I make the brilliant play mistake of Swerving it at his Jace instead of one of the mines. He Time Warps, negates my counters, and mills me.
1-2, (1-2)
Another match I was looking forward to. Anything but Jacerator was fine by me at this point.
Game 1: He resolves an Elspeth and I put all my efforts into bringing her down. He lands a Baneslayer. I have no terminate for it, and the following turn he lands another Bane, I have nothing. I play Mind Sculptor and return his Bane, and unsummon it again, Double Negative it, but there's still one left, and it kills me.
SB: +3 Bloodwitch, +1 Negate +2 Duress, +2 Needle, -2 Bolt, -2 Essence Scatter, -1 Double Negative, -2 Sphinx, -1 Treasure Hunt
Game 2: Once again Seas + Manascrew + Jace help me take the game, but he eventually O-Rings my Jace, and I have to kill him with Sorin and Tarpits.
SB: None
Game 3: I Negate Elspeth, Duress a 2nd Elspeth, then Needle his Gideon once it's out. Bolt + Tar Pit his mind sculptor then drop my Sorin. He plays Baneslayer, I Cruel + Sorin to bring him down to 3, EQ for 1 the following turn, but he Negates, so I Tar Pit, he Path's it, I negate.
2-1, (2-2)
Game 1: Bolt his Polymorph target, he Vines'd it so in response I terminate. I drop Sorin, put him to 10 then wittle him down.
SB: +2 Duress, +2 Needle, +1 Negate, -2 Essence Scatter, -2 Earthquake, -1 Double Negative
Game 2: He plays two Halimar depths in a row, I ponder on my first turn. T2 I Duress a Negate out of his hand and see 2 Misty Rainforest, so I play a needle on his rainforests, and he's manascrewed until he draws a Khalni Garden, but I've already landed a Sphinx and swing with a 6/2 Lavaclaw for the win.
2-0, (3-2)
Another match I looked forward to.
Game 1: He's on the play, gets 3 mana dorks out T2. I Essence Scatter the incoming Bane T3, then ponder into an Earthquake to wipe out 2 Hierarchs and Bolt his BoP. He lands a Cobra, but I D. Neg the Sovereigns. I get Mindsculptor out and brainstorm into 2 Cruels in a row, then Tar Pit his remaining 6 life.
SB: +3 Bloodwitch, +1 Flashfreeze, -2 Sphinx, -1 Negate, -1 Double Negative,
Game 2: He overextends again, I T2 EOT bolt Birds, and tapout to EQ for 1, taking Hierarch and Cobra. He lands a Mindsculptor. I have no outs for a bit, so he has a board with 2 Hierarchs, 1 Rhox War Monk, and a Dauntless Escort. I EOT Bolt the Escort, then ponder into my second EQ and do it for 4, taking his Jace, and creatures. Cruel, he flashfreezes, but I get a Witch out the next turn, then draw into my Mind Sculptor and brain storm into a 2nd witch, and they bring it home.
2-0, (4-2)
At this point I knew I hadn't made Top 8 so I wasn't as on guard anymore.
Game 1: I bolt, terminate, and EQ his creatures nonstop, counter Ranger, seas his lands. Play Mindsculptor and fateseal until I get to 11, he bolts Jace. I brainstorm into Cruel on like my 20th turn. Play it, play another cruel, and EQ for 7. Loooong game.
SB: +3 Bloodwitch, +2 Needle, -2 Sphinx, -1 Double Negative, -1 Negate, -1 Treasure Hunt
Game 2: He lands an Elspeth, but I needle it. He O Rings my needle. I EQ for 6, taking Elspeth and his Ranger'd creatures. I play Bloodwitch, he swings me down to 1 but I topdeck cruel. He swings again, and I could survive at 1 if I blocked his lynx instead of stoneforge, and since I didn't see the Terramorphic Expanse, I just let the Lynx, Ranger and Kitesail in and lost.
SB: +1 Negate, -1 D. Neg
Game 3: 3 minutes left in the round so we speed through. I'm really out of it by this point and I forget to play a land on two turns, and end up losing.
1-2, (4-3)
That's how it ended up. As much as I like Sphinx, there were a lot of times when I'd rather have played something else. Emrakul in my SB for the Jacerator matchup is a necessity, and I need to run more mainboard negates to deal with the declining popularity of aggro.
Changes I'd make if I had to do it again.
MD: -1 Sphinx, -1 Treasure Hunt, - forgetting land drops, +1 Negate, +1 Suffer the Past
SB: -1 Flashfreeze, -2 wrong sleeves, +1 Emrakul, +2 Good sleeves
More on-topic: I'm not having much of a problem with my Cruel mana, IRL or online, and I have been getting Seas'd a lot. Also, the Bolas list is interesting, I'm definitely going to try it out.
But, ideally, I wish we had signets. I feel the deck would really benefit if it could get Cruel off a turn or two earlier, so I'm going to try experimenting with Obelisk of Grixis.
On Sorin: I feel if a card is only worth running one of, its value is questionable. They replaced 1x Hatcher and 1x Treasure Hunt, both of which I found myself drawing into too much.
On Flashfreeze: How many decks do you have trouble with that run neither red or green compared to those that do? I could argue that Terminate is a meta call because some decks might not run creatures. Flashfreeze hits bant, jund, mythic and rdw among others. If your meta runs few to none of those, then yeah, taking them out would be a good call.
On Essence Feed: No. If you're concerned about life and can't put Sorin in, try Nighthawks, which I'm considering using to keep casting costs down.
On Edges: Yes, I cut them. The opportunity to ruin my Op's mana is a moot point if mine suffers too.
Regarding your questions:I don't like Into The Roil, so I'll always say replace it. I keep trying to fit it in, but I never want to see it over something else. Terminate is better against creatures and I use AiD or direct damage on planeswalkers. For sideboard tech, try out Swerve. It counters counterspells, destroys people who play heavy discard spells and turns your OPs removal against them. If it doesn't work out for you, try Thought hemorrhage, it combos pretty well with duress.
360-cube - Suggestions welcome!
How are you struggling with mana in a U/B/R deck where they change one of your lands into an ISLAND? The best they can do is take away a Red/Black dual land or blow up a man land. I had both happen to me this weekend and I still never had mana issues because of either Spreading Seas or Tectonic Edge. I even had my Creeping Tar Pit get hit with Celestial Purge and it wasn't an issue.
Standard
:symu::symb::symr:Grixis Control:symu::symb::symr:
:symw::symu:Tapout:symw::symu:
Current Standard:
Boros
Current Legacy:
Merfolk
UW Stoneforge
MonoUDelver(in progress)
Yea I was starting to think this... Was looking at possibly putting in x1 Sorin in this list, however in my old CRUEL build where I ran x1 Sorin, there was a much much better draw engine and I saw him quite of bit. In the Bolas build that I am trying to run with, the draw engine is a bunch of Cantrips and big Mind Springs, other then that, thats it.... So a x1 Sorin probably won't cut it...
There are alot of UW/x variants at my shop. Some JUND, some RDW and even Boros, but alot of WHITE, UW, UWr, stuff like that. It seems to be moving more towards control then aggro. Course thats not a very good assessment, since there are still about 25 to 30+ people each Friday. The ones at the top seem to be more control, but getting there you have to field your way through tons of AGGRO. Pretty diverse meta... Still not enough to MB Flashfreeze and remove Terminates though. And just to be clear, I wasn't knocking your choice, if it works for you, great.
Lifegain isn't as huge as a problem as it maybe for some. I run Consuming Vapors in my MB, so I do have some access to Lifegain. I considered Sorin, but as a x1 of in a deck that runs a low quality draw engine, probably not going to be all that effective. For the use of Essence Feed, I never said use it or we need it, when I first started putting the deck on paper, it was a consideration, but never tried it for obvious reasons.
The way I see it, with Hatchers: When you sac a EDGE to destroy your OPs land, you replace it with 3 Hatcher Tokens... SORTA..... I know it sounds iffy, but thats kinda my mindset. I run Hatchers, so sure it puts me a TURN back, but how baddly is it screwing them up? More often then not, with Spreading Seas backing it up, its screwing them up pretty bad. Atleast from what I found... There are times the Tectonics caused color issues for me, but so far its been few and far between.
BUT again, not knocking anything you're doing, I think your list is great.
Into the Roil is most importantly our answer to those trouble cards. Trouble cards meaning we run lots of Creature removal, and even ways of dealing with Planeswalkers. But there isn't a whole lot going on in the area of dealing with Enchantments and Artifacts. Sure in our Bolas build, Bolas does, but he doesn't come online till MID-LATE. So I found that having some sort of all around utility bounce spell is needed. But that could be just me......
AiD is absolutely great! Wish I could acquire my 2 that I wanted for my deck. Although my shop is filled with alot of heavy fast aggro in the beginning stages of a FNM, there are still those top control decks that seem to do great every week. I felt that it would be the same issue the Cleveland Cavs had. They bring in Shaq to deal with Dwight Howard, but didn't even beat the Celtics to get a chance to face the Magic. So it was moot.... All is Dust is great, it has its purpose, but IMHO its a tad slower when trying to answer to quicker aggro matchups. So my AiD is in the sideboard, will come in against slower aggro and/or Control decks.
Swerve sounds interesting... Not sure where i'd fit it, my SB is pretty tight right now. I really like what Duress does for Grixis builds in general. Ruinblaster is a keeper since that is part of one of the strategies I wanted to accomplish. Fissure Vent is my answer to Pithing Needle mostly, but any other pesky artifacts. And bonus, it also can kill Man Lands. Flashfreeze for obvious reasons... Ulamog can honestly GO, and I kinda like having the extra Consume the Meek for added protection VS allies and certain other matchups just in case. Sideboard is pretty tight...
Thanks for the suggestions!
And again, wasn't knocking your list by no means. I honestly think your list is probably better.
Lol, I'm not saying to remove terminates, I always run a full 4 MB, I was just making a point. You can make an argument against any card, they all have matchups where they don't work, that's why we have a sideboard. For ItR, my main problem is it's only half an answer, they can just play the problem card again afterwards, and though it cantrips, I still have reservations on using it. As for your SB, you JUST said you had 2 open slots lol. Try them, if you dont like either, go +1 squall, +1 duress
Edit
What's your mana base? I find the best way around this is using only Creeping Tar Pits for manlands. That way they are forced to choose between stopping our mana or our manlands with seas, and we're left with an out no matter which they choose.
360-cube - Suggestions welcome!
Does it happen often? its easier to get cut off red than blue, you could cut 1 or 2 blue sources for red.
360-cube - Suggestions welcome!
If you want to cast Cruel on turn 7, you should probably be playing 27-28 land (along with a nice helping of card drawing). 25 isn't even going to reliably hit 5 mana on turn 5.
Playing more land should help mitigate Spreading Seas-induced colorscrew, as well.
Honestly I don't see where a single Double Negative is going to do you much good, I would probably personally drop a thought hemhorrage and a double negative for 2 duress, or maybe even two Vampire Hexmage, you probably run into the same agro headaches as I do
Personally, I'm loving All is Dust, I maindeck it as a meta preference, but its nuts against blue/white because it eats spreading seas, shroud creatures, oblivion rings, and planeswalkers all in one fell swoop, and the best part? All colorless. If you have 7 mana you can play this spell.
At the very least you should swap a Tarn or two for Drowned Catacombs. And consider Lavaclaw Reaches. Also, you should probably go to 26 lands, if not 27. I ran a Cruel version at Regionals and never had an issue making UUBBBRR when I had 7 lands in play.
Not so much anymore.
That just seems odd to me. Maybe your list is wildly different than mine, but even with Spreading Seas and their acceleration U/W is a pretty easy matchup for me, and the only thing that makes UWr really difficult is Ajani V and the multiple-angled planeswalker attack. And if they tap-out for Mindspring, so be it. We've still got Cruel, Nicol B, and access to counters (if that's your style. It is mine, and they were pretty good all day)
Not so much anymore.
Do you run any creatures aside from manlands and any burn? My list is a couple pages back if you want to look at it, but between testing and the matches I've played in tournaments I'm about 75/35 pre-board and 60/40 (maybe a little worse) post-board.
Not so much anymore.
This thread has enough of those already.
The bottom line for me, though, is that in games I tested dragon 'walker in, he eats a land.
He then proceeds to get o-ringed or purged.
With cards like oblivion ring EVERYWHERE, I just don't see why people would play Nico over untargetable finishers + cruel. And Emrakul's hatcher - Turn 5 is when a person needs to EQ, y'know?
I think that there could be quite an argument for the chalice in there, though. Turn 5 Bolas would probably be able to nuke their white before they can hit the jackpot
I agree with most of this post, excepting the Chalice question. I feel like with Grixis you might as well be playing Cruel, and since Chalice doesn't help Cruel at all you might as well be playing something of value over it. Vapors, Quake, something like that. I mean, don't get me wrong, and early Bolas could be incredible, but my experiences have been similar to yours in that Bolas either gets Duressed away, O-ring'd, Countered, or he just runs away with the game. Even early against decks that can O-ring he won't be able to remove enough white sources, given that UW and UWr decks are solidly in the more white than blue category.
Not so much anymore.
4 Crumbling Necropolis
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Drowned Catacomb
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
3 Dragonskull Summit
3 Swamp
3 Island
2 Mountain
Creatures 7
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Sedraxis Specter
2 Jace Beleren
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Chandra Nalaar
Spells 20
1 Burst Lightning
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Consuming Vapors
2 Grixis Charm
4 Spreading Seas
3 Blightning
3 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Pithing Needle
3 Countersquall
1 Swerve
3 Duress
3 Goblin Ruinblaster
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
1 All is Dust
I haven't played many games with this list yet, only one FNM where I beat Vampires, Mill, Homebrew Bant Planeswalkers, and got blown away by RDW.
Has anyone else tried playing with extra Jaces? I don't have much of a sample size to offer, but they've done pretty well for me so far.
I think you've created some dead card instances and some counter productive things with having BOTH Jaces running together... *shrug* Good luck with it though!
I think for this strategy to work to the most effective of ways... When you're on the play, Jace 2.0 is golden, when you're on the draw, maybe side out 2 of your Jace 2.0, bringing in 2 or 3 Jace Beleren as pseudo removal for their Jace 2.0, and it helps with the draw engine, where you eventually get your own Jace 2.0 and play it... *shrug* Sounds like alot of things to deal with just to deal with their Jace. Just kill out?
i present to our brilliant minds, another list to critique, and give feedback on.
this is my current build and i have found it to be very superior to some decks.
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Crumbling Necropolis
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Island
4 Mountain
1 Vampire Nighthawk
// Spells \\_______
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Terminate BR Instant
4 Double Negative
3 Essence Scatter
2 See Beyond
3 Consume the Meek
4 Ponder
3 Instant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Consume the Meek
3 Flashfreeze
3 Into the Roil
4 Consuming Vapors
2 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Swerve
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Mnemonic Wall
does anyone know how to name the deck? i dont know where to look to find out how to do that so i figured i'd ask you all
Well, I started playing Beleren because I wasn't happy with any of the other draw spells currently available, so I'm mostly using him as a replacement for Divination. The fact that he can mess with opposing Jaces is basically a bonus.
I haven't run into the multiple dead Jace problem yet, partly because one or the other tends to die fairly often. Plus, you could always just draw Beleren to death or, if 2.0 is on the board, brainstorm the copies away.
But anyway, more testing~