it's really good, but everyone's putting ratchet bomb in sideboard now which totally hoses tokens/weenie. not to mention firewalker.
but with poison, all of your eggs are in one basket, namely a single pumped infect creature -- they WILL have single-target removal if they're halfway competitive. bolt. condemn. grip. doomblade. roil. mana leak.
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Stoneforge Mystic is GILBIC.
Dude, Blightning sucks. It's just a slightly better Mind Rot!
Squadron Hawks? Maybe okay in Limited. They're just 1/1 fliers, after all.
Why pre-order 30 Primeval Titans off Ebay for 25$ each? Sun Titan is obviously the best.
i think the whole point is most decks will Bolt, Mana Leak, Journey to Nowhere or Doom Blade it. easily. that's just common removal people run. You HAVE to keep a blue open for a Dispel or the new one drop Counter, or heck a Vines.
This is especially true in the second and third matches. Unless your LGS does single elimination.
So much truth right there...
Until we can find out wether poison decks will be one of these, it's still a fun mental excercise
Fun mental excerise? You mean assuming you're playing the slowest deck on the planet, or a non-interactive opponent? I don't understand why people play those out on gatherer and here. It's a waste of time when anyone whose played even a kitchen table game knows that a godhand as people state wont happen.
You may play one opponent who just DOESNT have an answer to your godhand. Is it worth the mental exercise?
I personally look for a consistent wincon in a deck, and many ways to go about it. You've also got to protect your permanents and stop your opponent's wincon. These mental exercises don't help with that.
By the logic you guys are exhibiting than all creatures in the history of ever are crap and not worth playing.
We get it. Everybody has mana leaks, doom blades, condemns, lightning bolts & virtually a thousand answers for any good creatures you feel like bringing out.
Does that have to automatically disqualify every deck idea that comes around? I'm surprised this isn't the universal response to every deck posted in the standard forum then.
"Well that's a nice Naya Shaman deck you have there, but all of your creatures are gonna die to Lightning Bolt, Doom Blade & White removal so it sucks".
"Interesting elfball strategy, too bad all your elves are going to get killed by lightning bolt or countered by mana leak. So your deck sucks too".
"Good creativity on your revised RDW deck, too bad all your elementals, kiln fiends & goblin bushwackers get slaughtered by white removal & doom blade. So your deck sucks as well."
Give the guy some credit for coming up with a turn 3 kill, jeez. EVERY deck strategy gets killed by the cheap removal that every color except for green has access to. That doesn't automatically mean that infect sucks. It just lumps it in the same boat as every other aggro deck in Standard that doesn't stand a chance against W/U control. As usual.
By the logic you guys are exhibiting than all creatures in the history of ever are crap and not worth playing.
We get it. Everybody has mana leaks, doom blades, condemns, lightning bolts & virtually a thousand answers for any good creatures you feel like bringing out.
Does that have to automatically disqualify every deck idea that comes around? I'm surprised this isn't the universal response to every deck posted in the standard forum then.
"Well that's a nice Naya Shaman deck you have there, but all of your creatures are gonna die to Lightning Bolt, Doom Blade & White removal so it sucks".
"Interesting elfball strategy, too bad all your elves are going to get killed by lightning bolt or countered by mana leak. So your deck sucks too".
"Good creativity on your revised RDW deck, too bad all your elementals, kiln fiends & goblin bushwackers get slaughtered by white removal & doom blade. So your deck sucks as well."
Give the guy some credit for coming up with a turn 3 kill, jeez. EVERY deck strategy gets killed by the cheap removal that every color except for green has access to. That doesn't automatically mean that infect sucks. It just lumps it in the same boat as every other aggro deck in Standard that doesn't stand a chance against W/U control. As usual.
you're missing the point. he's making a turn three kill with a few select cards, and assuming the opponent wont have ONE answer. You're logic is horribly flawed considering you're not reading what were saying, at all.
By the logic you guys are exhibiting than all creatures in the history of ever are crap and not worth playing.
Pretty much yeah. There's no creature that can't be removed from play somehow. If you rely on creatures, you rely on either threat density (outnumber their answers) or threat quality (fewer things kill Emrakul than kill Kiln Fiend). Everything dies to some kind of removal. If you can't accept that, then you're going to lose games because of it and frankly you'll deserve it.
It's a cute trick to kill someone on turn 2 or 3 using only Standard cards. Not every Standard card pool has that capability. But in any metagame, consistency is the most important part of the deck, especially in aggro, where you want every card you draw to be either a threat or an answer to something your opponent's played. Memnite for example is great if it helps enable Mox Opal on turn 1. It's also a pretty horrible topdeck on turn 8.
see, the thing is. if they remove your fauna shaman or poison creature, no big deal... card for a card, and all that
but if they remove a creature that you just targetted with a pump spell, they're taking away your livelyhood, man. your livelyhood.
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Stoneforge Mystic is GILBIC.
Dude, Blightning sucks. It's just a slightly better Mind Rot!
Squadron Hawks? Maybe okay in Limited. They're just 1/1 fliers, after all.
Why pre-order 30 Primeval Titans off Ebay for 25$ each? Sun Titan is obviously the best.
Why do we assume that the OP's deck is a one trick pony and it doesn't have more synergy and depth? I think renegade doppleganger is actually a brilliant idea for use with an infect strategy, and his deck happens to have a 3rd turn kill because of it.
A card is only as good as its synergies. People who say cards are "Bad" on their own are being rather short sighted, because no one plays a deck with 1 card. Pyretic ritual is considered a bad card, but when used in Charbeltcher it's perfectly on par with the powerlevel of legacy. Legacy goblin decks use a ton of cards that wouldn't be played outside their own decks, yet kick ass in that one. Cultivate would be awful with the amount of aggro the game has right now, if you didn't have things like the titans to ramp into, but since you do its perfectly great.
Those combos are pretty cute and would be nice if you can pull it off. While killing on turn 3 is awesome, a simple disruption would make you lose a lot of cards. And that will cost you the game.
I think this is what the guys are trying to point out. If you overextend too much and it gets countered.
IMO, it would be strong for casual playing, but not for competitive matches.
By the logic you guys are exhibiting than all creatures in the history of ever are crap and not worth playing.
We get it. Everybody has mana leaks, doom blades, condemns, lightning bolts & virtually a thousand answers for any good creatures you feel like bringing out.
Don't be defensive, this isn't a 'dies to removal' argument. Its a 'can easily be disrupted by cards common to nearly every major deck in the format' argument.
Fauna Shaman dies to Lightning Bolt, it doesn't make it a bad card, and it doesn't make the synergy with Vengevine any worse. Why? Because it is a must-remove threat that will win the game by itself if left alone for even a couple of turns. That's the key here, the card is good alone and only gets better with support.
Look at Vengevine, a card that could fall to a similar judgment based on its toughness. Not only is it a giant threat that starts working the moment you play it, it also gets BETTER when it dies in multiples. But Kiln fiend is bad because in order to extract its explosive potential it requires you to play cards... EVERY TURN YOU ATTACK! Beyond that, its susceptible to every form of removal known to man and actually encourages 2-for-1s.
Goldfishing a turn-3 kill that requires more than 3 cards is an interesting thought exercise that also does not really warrant a thread. Anyone can think of that. Trying to build a legit deck around that concept quickly obviates the lie of such a thing being 'good' because it becomes instantly obvious that making something like this work consistently enough to be worth trying anywhere other than the kitchen table is impossible.
So when someone says "Deck X With Janky Idea" is "bad" it's not an attack on the character of the builder, just an acknowledgment of reality. In order to disprove this assessment, one must answer some very basic questions;
1. "Is our winning strategy hard to disrupt?"
2. "Are the key pieces of said strategy reliable/easy to draw when we need them?"
3. "What do we do when the main win strategy fails?"
If the answer to the first question is 'yes', your deck is probably going to have problems setting up a win. This is especially relevant to creatures, which are the easiest cards to get rid of. So to assess how good a creature-based winning strategy, you must show how your creatures match-up against other creatures and *gasp* removal + control.
Now, if the answer to the second question is 'no' then ditto above. This speaks directly to all of these "T3 Kills" and "T4 Game-locks" posts. The more cards you need in-hand and on the board by a particular (early) turn the worse the concept is. You can goldfish a 7-card T2 pseudo-win using 1x Mox, 3x Memnite, 1x Glint Hawk, 1x Quest for the Holy Relic, and a plains (fetching Argentum Armor). The likelihood of this ever happening are within the statistical margin of error (eg: impossible). The general rule is that every card you play should be relevant any time you play it. Decks that pack cards that are only useful in very narrow setups will almost always lose.
Now focusing on #3 is critical. The best decks (U/W, Valakut, etc) all have ways to win reliably even without their central win mechanic. U/W can swing with Gideon, Collonades or fliers, pop off either Jace's Ultimate. Valakut can just bash your head in with Primeval Titan, etc. If your deck has only one way to win (say a suped-up, double-striking, unblockable Kiln Fiend) that costs you at least 3 cards out of your hand and can be completely foiled by a common piece of removal, bounce, or denial (Lightning Bolt/Into the Roil the creature, Mana Leaking Tainted Strike) then your answer is "You lose". This means your deck is probably "bad".
OP: *depletes his god hand that happens once every 400 games in the table by turn 3*
Me: Lightning Bolt/Mana Leak/Doom Blade/Condemn
SOM is such a blast! Turn 3 scoops are hilarious!
Seriously, anyone that doesn't realize that you should count with at least one blocker/removal/counter being played from your opponent is just being delusional.
I honestly hate coming to forums where people have a good idea (seems viable as a deck to atleast test) and there are 3 pages of people saying "bolt this", "doom blade that", "counter that"..... you guys do realize that if you killed all the mana dorks (especially cobra) in mythic.dec that you pretty much won right!
there are like 850 cards in standard and there is an answer for everything you would play! that does not mean you can dismiss someones idea just because of the existance of bolt, counters, and doom blade!
until you guys get into the hall of fame, which i am not saying i am, but you need to keep an opened mind. you dont see conley woods saying "i cant play soul sisters because my creatures die to infest, pyroclasm effects"
While we are goldfishing, why not turn 1 wins with 4x Archive Trap....
That said, I think its possible that this general idea may work if he has a lot of creatures which achieve these effects along with spells like vines of vastwood, emerge unscathed etc. Given that infect needs to take only 10 health ever, a lot of pumped up creatures might be able to achieve something.
I didn't find it too fun. There were 3 types of decks (excudling mine: terrible)
Artifact heavy
luck sack control/removal
Infect
That's it. Like usual, it's the pools that make the decks, and mine was baaaad. I just hate how people kept saying Infect is the next big thing, I just don't see it being an issue outside 40 card decks (yet).
First off I made this post to point out a turn 3 kill, not to debate the whole dies to removal era.
I said I love scars because it was very easy for me to think it up. Now does it work 100 percent of the time. Hell no. But in the 8 matches I have played on lack with the infect deck which were about 20 games, this has happened 4 times. It is not what I go for though, and building a deck around a turn 3 kill is stupid. I didn't even realize I could get the turn 3 kill until the first time it happened.
I am not here to debate the deck, or talk about the deck, but people here want to assume that a deck automatically dies to removal. What people are missing is that in the current standard year, there is a nice amount of creature recursion in the colors I run. I want the recursion because Putrefax is going to be sacrificed the turn it comes in anyways and I want more ways to play it. But I have 4 cards that might make the whole dies to removal and board wipe argument people want to talk about.
In today's Pre Release, creature recursion or creature imprinting was happening all over the place.
So yes Putrefax can die to bolt, and to doomblades and to all the other cheap removal. If you are going to play Cards that die to removal so easily, wouldn't you assume you are going to need to to protect that weakness with support cards.
But again that was not the point of the thread. Point of the thread was to point out a turn 3 win that COULD happen, not neccesarily WILL happen.
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My point still remains the same. EVERY deck dies to doom blades, lightning bolts, mana leaks and white removal spells killing any early momentum that you get off the ground. Therefore saying that his idea sucks is a stupid position because you can just say that to every single deck idea in existence.
You can have a thousand ways to kill a person in a deck, and every single one of those will still fall to the power of cheap removal instants. It doesn't make the deck bad. At all. And you really can't convince me that it does. Because if EVERY DECK is subject to cheap instant removal killing off all momentum, then EVERY DECK sucks. And I refuse to believe that logic.
My point still remains the same. EVERY deck dies to doom blades, lightning bolts, mana leaks and white removal spells killing any early momentum that you get off the ground. Therefore saying that his idea sucks is a stupid position because you can just say that to every single deck idea in existence.
You can have a thousand ways to kill a person in a deck, and every single one of those will still fall to the power of cheap removal instants. It doesn't make the deck bad. At all. And you really can't convince me that it does. Because if EVERY DECK is subject to cheap instant removal killing off all momentum, then EVERY DECK sucks. And I refuse to believe that logic.
The big problem is that Infect wants to deal its 10 counters as quickly as possible because otherwise you will be top decking Plague Stingers (Or even Skithyx and Putrefax) that will be met by Baneslayers, Titans, and Avenger Tokens. Decks that rush damage like that are even more vulnerable to removal then other decks because they are sacrificing a late game for a really good early game.
My point still remains the same. EVERY deck dies to doom blades, lightning bolts, mana leaks and white removal spells killing any early momentum that you get off the ground. Therefore saying that his idea sucks is a stupid position because you can just say that to every single deck idea in existence.
You can have a thousand ways to kill a person in a deck, and every single one of those will still fall to the power of cheap removal instants. It doesn't make the deck bad. At all. And you really can't convince me that it does. Because if EVERY DECK is subject to cheap instant removal killing off all momentum, then EVERY DECK sucks. And I refuse to believe that logic.
Sounds like you just don't understand magic, as black decks don't die to doom blade! :rolleyes::facepalm: And that every good deck has a way around cheap removal or is good due to outracing it.
Look at Vengevine. The only way to stop it from coming back is countering the second creature spell, exiling their graveyard, killing fauna shaman early, or exiling vengevine. It's the perfect card to combat the rampant removal in this format. Considering white lost two powerful exile cards, its going to be even stronger.
You seem to have this preconceived notion that if someone disagrees that this turn three deck is possible, it is because they are wrong or their logic is flawed. How old are you? You just throw around the argument that every deck is bad because every deck can die to removal. It's only true if every deck is built as bad as a turn three kill, as any almost any FNM deck I've played has an answer for a turn three kill like that.
UW Control: Mana Leak, Deprive
Red anything: Lightning Bolt, Burst Lightning, Pyroclasm
black anything: Doomblade, deathmark, their new kill spell
Let's say they happen to not draw removal, or you actually get this godhand. What are those chances? Your deck has to be able to win outside of this, and quickly, before they can stop you. Throw bad threats out to get killed, then throw the good ones right after. Fake them out. Play smart.
You have to account for Doom Blades in a black deck, or Condemn in a white deck. From the looks of it, you don't want to admit that a turn three deck, or any deck, can win when a person packs zero to two in their opening hand.
Pretty much yeah. There's no creature that can't be removed from play somehow. If you rely on creatures, you rely on either threat density (outnumber their answers) or threat quality (fewer things kill Emrakul than kill Kiln Fiend). Everything dies to some kind of removal. If you can't accept that, then you're going to lose games because of it and frankly you'll deserve it.
It's a cute trick to kill someone on turn 2 or 3 using only Standard cards. Not every Standard card pool has that capability. But in any metagame, consistency is the most important part of the deck, especially in aggro, where you want every card you draw to be either a threat or an answer to something your opponent's played. Memnite for example is great if it helps enable Mox Opal on turn 1. It's also a pretty horrible topdeck on turn 8.
I've played 5 infect decks so far. I've only lost 1 game in all 5 series. Metalcraft is even worse...
T1 Goblin guide
T2 Searing blaze
T3 Dsummons, Kicked Bushwhacker
T1 Memnite, Memnite, Opal, red land, Glint hawk off opal, Glint Hawk off opal, Kicked Bushwhacker for 12
T2 Bolt and swing for game'
List goes on, i think the new goblin ritual will unlock a few as well.
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t2: bushwhacker, swing for 10
t3: bushwhacker + rebirth/summons/guide/bolt
it's really good, but everyone's putting ratchet bomb in sideboard now which totally hoses tokens/weenie. not to mention firewalker.
but with poison, all of your eggs are in one basket, namely a single pumped infect creature -- they WILL have single-target removal if they're halfway competitive. bolt. condemn. grip. doomblade. roil. mana leak.
Stoneforge Mystic is GILBIC.
Dude, Blightning sucks. It's just a slightly better Mind Rot!
Squadron Hawks? Maybe okay in Limited. They're just 1/1 fliers, after all.
Why pre-order 30 Primeval Titans off Ebay for 25$ each? Sun Titan is obviously the best.
This is especially true in the second and third matches. Unless your LGS does single elimination.
Fun mental excerise? You mean assuming you're playing the slowest deck on the planet, or a non-interactive opponent? I don't understand why people play those out on gatherer and here. It's a waste of time when anyone whose played even a kitchen table game knows that a godhand as people state wont happen.
You may play one opponent who just DOESNT have an answer to your godhand. Is it worth the mental exercise?
I personally look for a consistent wincon in a deck, and many ways to go about it. You've also got to protect your permanents and stop your opponent's wincon. These mental exercises don't help with that.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Kiln Fiend
Plated Geopede
and two of the following
Groundswell / Vines of Vastwood
Tainted Strike
Assault Stobe
You'll win (though Geopede + pump + Strobe is only 18), and having the correct support card will probably let that happen.
I have no idea if this is even anywhere near good, but it seems interesting
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Tainted Strike
4 Groundswell
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Assault Strobe
4 Withstand Death
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
4 Arid Mesa
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Forest
4 Copperline Verge
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Rootbound Crag
4 Autumn's Veil
2 Forked Bolt
4 Goblin Guide
2 Burst Lightning
3 Staggershock
Draft it on Cubetutor!
:symrw::symrw: Titan Mimic (tec)
We get it. Everybody has mana leaks, doom blades, condemns, lightning bolts & virtually a thousand answers for any good creatures you feel like bringing out.
Does that have to automatically disqualify every deck idea that comes around? I'm surprised this isn't the universal response to every deck posted in the standard forum then.
"Well that's a nice Naya Shaman deck you have there, but all of your creatures are gonna die to Lightning Bolt, Doom Blade & White removal so it sucks".
"Interesting elfball strategy, too bad all your elves are going to get killed by lightning bolt or countered by mana leak. So your deck sucks too".
"Good creativity on your revised RDW deck, too bad all your elementals, kiln fiends & goblin bushwackers get slaughtered by white removal & doom blade. So your deck sucks as well."
Give the guy some credit for coming up with a turn 3 kill, jeez. EVERY deck strategy gets killed by the cheap removal that every color except for green has access to. That doesn't automatically mean that infect sucks. It just lumps it in the same boat as every other aggro deck in Standard that doesn't stand a chance against W/U control. As usual.
you're missing the point. he's making a turn three kill with a few select cards, and assuming the opponent wont have ONE answer. You're logic is horribly flawed considering you're not reading what were saying, at all.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
...and the other 99.9% of the time they have an answer and you just lose.
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Pretty much yeah. There's no creature that can't be removed from play somehow. If you rely on creatures, you rely on either threat density (outnumber their answers) or threat quality (fewer things kill Emrakul than kill Kiln Fiend). Everything dies to some kind of removal. If you can't accept that, then you're going to lose games because of it and frankly you'll deserve it.
It's a cute trick to kill someone on turn 2 or 3 using only Standard cards. Not every Standard card pool has that capability. But in any metagame, consistency is the most important part of the deck, especially in aggro, where you want every card you draw to be either a threat or an answer to something your opponent's played. Memnite for example is great if it helps enable Mox Opal on turn 1. It's also a pretty horrible topdeck on turn 8.
but if they remove a creature that you just targetted with a pump spell, they're taking away your livelyhood, man. your livelyhood.
Stoneforge Mystic is GILBIC.
Dude, Blightning sucks. It's just a slightly better Mind Rot!
Squadron Hawks? Maybe okay in Limited. They're just 1/1 fliers, after all.
Why pre-order 30 Primeval Titans off Ebay for 25$ each? Sun Titan is obviously the best.
A card is only as good as its synergies. People who say cards are "Bad" on their own are being rather short sighted, because no one plays a deck with 1 card. Pyretic ritual is considered a bad card, but when used in Charbeltcher it's perfectly on par with the powerlevel of legacy. Legacy goblin decks use a ton of cards that wouldn't be played outside their own decks, yet kick ass in that one. Cultivate would be awful with the amount of aggro the game has right now, if you didn't have things like the titans to ramp into, but since you do its perfectly great.
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I think this is what the guys are trying to point out. If you overextend too much and it gets countered.
IMO, it would be strong for casual playing, but not for competitive matches.
Don't be defensive, this isn't a 'dies to removal' argument. Its a 'can easily be disrupted by cards common to nearly every major deck in the format' argument.
Fauna Shaman dies to Lightning Bolt, it doesn't make it a bad card, and it doesn't make the synergy with Vengevine any worse. Why? Because it is a must-remove threat that will win the game by itself if left alone for even a couple of turns. That's the key here, the card is good alone and only gets better with support.
Look at Vengevine, a card that could fall to a similar judgment based on its toughness. Not only is it a giant threat that starts working the moment you play it, it also gets BETTER when it dies in multiples. But Kiln fiend is bad because in order to extract its explosive potential it requires you to play cards... EVERY TURN YOU ATTACK! Beyond that, its susceptible to every form of removal known to man and actually encourages 2-for-1s.
Goldfishing a turn-3 kill that requires more than 3 cards is an interesting thought exercise that also does not really warrant a thread. Anyone can think of that. Trying to build a legit deck around that concept quickly obviates the lie of such a thing being 'good' because it becomes instantly obvious that making something like this work consistently enough to be worth trying anywhere other than the kitchen table is impossible.
So when someone says "Deck X With Janky Idea" is "bad" it's not an attack on the character of the builder, just an acknowledgment of reality. In order to disprove this assessment, one must answer some very basic questions;
1. "Is our winning strategy hard to disrupt?"
2. "Are the key pieces of said strategy reliable/easy to draw when we need them?"
3. "What do we do when the main win strategy fails?"
If the answer to the first question is 'yes', your deck is probably going to have problems setting up a win. This is especially relevant to creatures, which are the easiest cards to get rid of. So to assess how good a creature-based winning strategy, you must show how your creatures match-up against other creatures and *gasp* removal + control.
Now, if the answer to the second question is 'no' then ditto above. This speaks directly to all of these "T3 Kills" and "T4 Game-locks" posts. The more cards you need in-hand and on the board by a particular (early) turn the worse the concept is. You can goldfish a 7-card T2 pseudo-win using 1x Mox, 3x Memnite, 1x Glint Hawk, 1x Quest for the Holy Relic, and a plains (fetching Argentum Armor). The likelihood of this ever happening are within the statistical margin of error (eg: impossible). The general rule is that every card you play should be relevant any time you play it. Decks that pack cards that are only useful in very narrow setups will almost always lose.
Now focusing on #3 is critical. The best decks (U/W, Valakut, etc) all have ways to win reliably even without their central win mechanic. U/W can swing with Gideon, Collonades or fliers, pop off either Jace's Ultimate. Valakut can just bash your head in with Primeval Titan, etc. If your deck has only one way to win (say a suped-up, double-striking, unblockable Kiln Fiend) that costs you at least 3 cards out of your hand and can be completely foiled by a common piece of removal, bounce, or denial (Lightning Bolt/Into the Roil the creature, Mana Leaking Tainted Strike) then your answer is "You lose". This means your deck is probably "bad".
:symrw::symrw: Titan Mimic (tec)
Me: Lightning Bolt/Mana Leak/Doom Blade/Condemn
SOM is such a blast! Turn 3 scoops are hilarious!
Seriously, anyone that doesn't realize that you should count with at least one blocker/removal/counter being played from your opponent is just being delusional.
there are like 850 cards in standard and there is an answer for everything you would play! that does not mean you can dismiss someones idea just because of the existance of bolt, counters, and doom blade!
until you guys get into the hall of fame, which i am not saying i am, but you need to keep an opened mind. you dont see conley woods saying "i cant play soul sisters because my creatures die to infest, pyroclasm effects"
Synergies that are fragile enough to fall apart under a lightning bolt are justifiably called weak. You can't really argue that they aren't.
:symrw::symrw: Titan Mimic (tec)
You can if it involves spending a lot of cards to boost one creature with no defenses of its own.
That said, I think its possible that this general idea may work if he has a lot of creatures which achieve these effects along with spells like vines of vastwood, emerge unscathed etc. Given that infect needs to take only 10 health ever, a lot of pumped up creatures might be able to achieve something.
Artifact heavy
luck sack control/removal
Infect
That's it. Like usual, it's the pools that make the decks, and mine was baaaad. I just hate how people kept saying Infect is the next big thing, I just don't see it being an issue outside 40 card decks (yet).
I said I love scars because it was very easy for me to think it up. Now does it work 100 percent of the time. Hell no. But in the 8 matches I have played on lack with the infect deck which were about 20 games, this has happened 4 times. It is not what I go for though, and building a deck around a turn 3 kill is stupid. I didn't even realize I could get the turn 3 kill until the first time it happened.
I am not here to debate the deck, or talk about the deck, but people here want to assume that a deck automatically dies to removal. What people are missing is that in the current standard year, there is a nice amount of creature recursion in the colors I run. I want the recursion because Putrefax is going to be sacrificed the turn it comes in anyways and I want more ways to play it. But I have 4 cards that might make the whole dies to removal and board wipe argument people want to talk about.
Distemtob
Nature's Spiral
Corpse Cur
Mimic Vat
In today's Pre Release, creature recursion or creature imprinting was happening all over the place.
So yes Putrefax can die to bolt, and to doomblades and to all the other cheap removal. If you are going to play Cards that die to removal so easily, wouldn't you assume you are going to need to to protect that weakness with support cards.
But again that was not the point of the thread. Point of the thread was to point out a turn 3 win that COULD happen, not neccesarily WILL happen.
Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
Love is Emphatic, cards need to be played
Hailing from the BA, accumulating CA"
You can have a thousand ways to kill a person in a deck, and every single one of those will still fall to the power of cheap removal instants. It doesn't make the deck bad. At all. And you really can't convince me that it does. Because if EVERY DECK is subject to cheap instant removal killing off all momentum, then EVERY DECK sucks. And I refuse to believe that logic.
The big problem is that Infect wants to deal its 10 counters as quickly as possible because otherwise you will be top decking Plague Stingers (Or even Skithyx and Putrefax) that will be met by Baneslayers, Titans, and Avenger Tokens. Decks that rush damage like that are even more vulnerable to removal then other decks because they are sacrificing a late game for a really good early game.
Sounds like you just don't understand magic, as black decks don't die to doom blade! :rolleyes::facepalm: And that every good deck has a way around cheap removal or is good due to outracing it.
Look at Vengevine. The only way to stop it from coming back is countering the second creature spell, exiling their graveyard, killing fauna shaman early, or exiling vengevine. It's the perfect card to combat the rampant removal in this format. Considering white lost two powerful exile cards, its going to be even stronger.
You seem to have this preconceived notion that if someone disagrees that this turn three deck is possible, it is because they are wrong or their logic is flawed. How old are you? You just throw around the argument that every deck is bad because every deck can die to removal. It's only true if every deck is built as bad as a turn three kill, as any almost any FNM deck I've played has an answer for a turn three kill like that.
UW Control: Mana Leak, Deprive
Red anything: Lightning Bolt, Burst Lightning, Pyroclasm
black anything: Doomblade, deathmark, their new kill spell
Let's say they happen to not draw removal, or you actually get this godhand. What are those chances? Your deck has to be able to win outside of this, and quickly, before they can stop you. Throw bad threats out to get killed, then throw the good ones right after. Fake them out. Play smart.
You have to account for Doom Blades in a black deck, or Condemn in a white deck. From the looks of it, you don't want to admit that a turn three deck, or any deck, can win when a person packs zero to two in their opening hand.
I'll quote these for truth
Stop being delusional
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown