Digging Knight of the White Orchid. Only 1 Tech Edge in each deck, hmmmm. Apparently 4 Baneslayer = 2 Iona, lol. I'm digging them both, but obviously not what I would play.
First of all, you don't need permission to be called a control deck. Second, while they are ramping to a degree, this doesn't deny it from being a control deck. They are just trying to tap out for powerful spells.
In fact, the reasoning is that tapping out to do something powerful is better than bluffing a counter or even having the counter and just trading 1-for-1.
In addition, they actually boast a good percentage against Jund and Naya. You don't need permission to beat those decks. I really don't understand why people think permission is the end-all, be-all of control decks or that it's even required.
About the 1 Tectonic Edge: Sam Black said in his article, if he was to play it again, he'd add one as well as a 4th Path. He claimed he had trouble with Man Lands.
I've been running a similar list to both before Chapin announced his build at Pro Tour San Diego (because I miss the old u/w borderpost builds), and personally, I'm glad to see that it's doing well in high level tournaments. If it's worth mentioning, the deck has gotten me top 4 in the last 3 weeks of FNM with tweakings in between (jund/naya meta).
Currently, I'm trying to test the Marshal's Anthem recursion (1-of for now), which seems to work well with the ramp strategy. On top of that, I love its interaction with Martial Coup and top-decked creatures. If only we had more useful creatures to trigger with MA (like mulldrifter from last year), then we could get more value out of a late game recursion. At least recurred baneslayers are fun to play with.
He is so man, he is mario, and I will tell my opponents such. As and when I bounce their permanent I will exclaim "MARIO" as though he were stomped on by our mighty Jace. Every time someone kill him I will give them 99 USD (not AUS!!!) because their lightning bolt should cost 100 DOLLARS...
Jace even made it into the Teenage Super Hero Mutant Ninja Hero Turtles.
Thought Scour is terrible in BV. How many flashback spells are being run? Say roughly 15. This gives you a roughly 38% chance of milling one flashback spell. And even if you do, you paid one mana to cantrip and dump an overcosted spell. Alchemy, Geistflame, Devil's play, etc. all cost much more to flash back than your average card, so you're not getting full value out of it.
You'd much rather play Ponder. At least that generates a tangible advantage.
I've been working with a KotWo build that runs FF as the only countermagic and does similar ramping things. It seems to work very well. While the deck feels more like control than permission, if that is the flavor the metagame demands, that's what the deck needs to do.
I would like to note that my build (very similar to the Spreading Seas list) has had a much improved game against Naya, a match up I was having some trouble with playing Chapin's list.
This build is really good, still resistant to blightning, and the absence of jace, the mind sculptor is rarely missed, seeing how the card is decent at best against jund most of the time, but still in the sideboard for matches its needed, while mind spring and coup, this obviouslty has been said, wins games against jund, and being able to cast baneslayer late game is amazing as well, usually forcing a 2-for-1
Check out this deck, try it over the permission builds, the card advantadge engine in it is terrific.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Originally Posted by Alderant Baneslayer Angel could be hungover, slightly blind, and texting while flying and still win the game.
No SCG Premium, so no, I would not have had the privilege of reading his thoughts on the subject. The reason why I said they both look more like ramp lists is because of the amount of control elements each run (9 - 3 DoJ, 3/4 PtE, 3/2 Oblivion Ring). Every other effect in the deck is either a ramp effect (Knight, Chalice, Borderpost), or is aimed at blowing the opponent out with huge spells (Martial Coup, Mind Spring, Iona), which is reminiscent of ramp decks. Ramp lists also run sweepers and some point removal, but they aren't regarded as control lists.
Permission, in a vacuum, is what makes Ux decks different from control decks based off of other colours. It lets you say no to any game ending effects that the opponent could possibly throw at you. I suppose that this point is not relevant now, given that Grixis and UW aren't exactly popular, and that the most powerful play from Jund (BBE -> Blightning) can't be dealt with efficiently using permission alone. You will however, remember this when you get Mind Sludged.
I'm not saying the deck is bad (it looks quite fun, actually), but its gameplan is fundamentally different from the other iterations of UW Control that we've seen so far.
Yes, the deck is ramping. But this doesn't make it NOT a control deck. It doesn't really matter what the cards in the deck are. There aren't specific "control" cards. If you know your history, the original Sligh decks were actually control decks!
Yes, blue has counter magic. But that's not really the point. Their reasoning is, if the counter magic sucks, why not tap out and do something powerful?
Only in that this goal is to tap out and be more proactive as oppose to reactive.
While the deck feels more like control than permission
"Permission" is not a deck archetype, but a classification for a subset of spells (i.e. Counterspell, Mana Leak, Force of Will). Again, you don't need counter magic (permission) to be a control deck.
There is a mistake in first list OP. 3 KoTWO mainboard, and 2 more SB? Seem's a little cheaty.
Well, I believe either card only has room as a singleton in this deck. So...do you want a card that could possibly, maybe, if everything goes right, make your crap indestructible (in and of itself not a win condition)? Or a card that, if resolved, will lock out at least 1/3 of your opponent's deck, and plop a 7/7 flying body on the BF?
Every single time I've resolved Iona in competitive play, my opponent has started picking up his lands. Every single time I've resolved Elspeth, she's bought me a lot of turns (extremely valuable, don't get me wrong) but has eventually been dealt with.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Banner courtesy of Skizzik_NZ and Maelstrom Graphics
Thought Scour is terrible in BV. How many flashback spells are being run? Say roughly 15. This gives you a roughly 38% chance of milling one flashback spell. And even if you do, you paid one mana to cantrip and dump an overcosted spell. Alchemy, Geistflame, Devil's play, etc. all cost much more to flash back than your average card, so you're not getting full value out of it.
You'd much rather play Ponder. At least that generates a tangible advantage.
Iona is a tough card to defend. For all the reasons mentioned, I have considered taking her out. At the same time however, I have not lost a single game when I dropped her. She's also an auto "side out" in many match ups. I have considered dropped her from the list entirely in favor of a SoJI, due to he's not so dead if I draw it early. Cause it does happen more than I would like it too where I draw her early but then again, if played correctly, 2/3's of the time she gets shuffled back in which has me less worried. It's a tough choice. I never thought about adding in Elspeth in that slot though, that may be a good choice.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGUSULTI ELEVENSBGU
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
I actually really like it. Remember, you aren't trying to utilize Iona as your primary victory condition. It's in there as a power, game breaking misers 1-of. And in this, it does the job perfectly.
Actually Sam's article lists his deck as having 5 Knight of the White Orchid...
However it's actually supposed to be 1 Knight and 1 Path...
My personal feeling is that if i was to play Tap Out Control like this i'd want to tap out to play more degenerate things like Cruel Ultimatum etc... Not Mind Spring & Martial Coup...
Now, if only the rest of Grixis was actually good...
...whereas the rest of UW actually IS good.
Testing Wall of Reverance in the main and it may makes its way into the board.
Thoughts on Hindering Light?
Why would you do that? What problems does it solve? What match up(s) does it make better? What are you cutting?
Most lists are running what, ~26 lands, correct? With our deck manipulation/draw power I rarely miss land drops, combined with a couple kicked EFC's its very possible to have her out T7 or so, which I don't think is such a stretch. She can be more game ending than Cruel Ultimatum can be in Grixis, and she can come down the same turn.
With so many people running mono-color decks at a competitive level I don't think I'd want to cut her from the main.
Iona rules. So does Elspeth. I started a thread the other day basically discussing this same question. I'm currently testing with one MD Elspeth in Iona's spot. I wish there was room for both...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Originally posted by Deimosfobos
BTW... what a silly question, I guess I should go to Ux control forum and ask: How come Mana Leak has a place in Ux control?
Most lists are running what, ~26 lands, correct? With our deck manipulation/draw power I rarely miss land drops, combined with a couple kicked EFC's its very possible to have her out T7 or so, which I don't think is such a stretch. She can be more game ending than Cruel Ultimatum can be in Grixis, and she can come down the same turn.
With so many people running mono-color decks at a competitive level I don't think I'd want to cut her from the main.
you can cast it on turn 7 if it's in your hand, and since it's a one-of that's hardly a given... or if you survive that long with dead cards in your hand, (dead until you have the mana to play it obviously)...which ain't gonna be easy against fast aggro decks... and it seems to me like most mono colored decks are actually fast to mid range aggro decks (RDW, Vampires)
anyways, peace, but I vote for Elspeth, or more removal/counters, or even Baneslayer/SoJI
I tested it, cut it, and i'm not looking back
gl
PS It's worth noting that before Chapin played it it only showed up in summoning trap, and if someone had posted a UW list with it before Chapin played it he would have been called a noob and derided to no end, funny like one Pro's successful run can change the people's perception of a card
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Niteowl the blue mage....
Originally posted by thepchapin
too many people are relying far too heavily on netdecking instead of actually pushing themselves to find ways to advance the format.
Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning
To be fair, UW Control didn't really exist (in the competitive sense) before Worldwake was released on 2-5-10. There weren't many high-profile tournaments post-Worldwake that had a UW Control deck feature Iona, Jace, Treasure Hunt, etc. until PT-San Diego which started on 2-19-10. That's only 2 weeks from the time UW Control could be constructed until it's debut at PT-San Diego.
I'm not really impressed with the deck... it seems like it has more problems with Jund then Chapin-esque list.
Its much safer to excell your mana. It also has a 2/2 first striker on the field where as Chapins does not. That little knight has saved me from so much dmg. With chapins list I find I stabalize at around 3-6 dmg so lucky bolts that get through tend to kill me, but Soorani/Kiblers I tend to stabalize with 8-10 life points remaining.
Well, I believe either card only has room as a singleton in this deck. So...do you want a card that could possibly, maybe, if everything goes right, make your crap indestructible (in and of itself not a win condition)? Or a card that, if resolved, will lock out at least 1/3 of your opponent's deck, and plop a 7/7 flying body on the BF?
Every single time I've resolved Iona in competitive play, my opponent has started picking up his lands. Every single time I've resolved Elspeth, she's bought me a lot of turns (extremely valuable, don't get me wrong) but has eventually been dealt with.
Apples and Oranges. Elspeth is more like WoD or Calcite snapper than Iona. Iona is a win card, I tap out, I win. Elspeth is more a protective wall our Jace can hide behind. I also find making my things indestructible to be less effective than it should be, so I don't even ult her off if it will kill her in this deck sometimes. I don't think its one or the other, I run both. Elspeth giving you alot of turns to think is very synergistic with Iona.
After testing with her, I found it took way too long to get her out. When she did hit the board however there was a decent amount of effect. In all honesty though playing an extra sphinx worked out a lot better int he long run. The only reason I would see playing her MD would be in a meta of mono color decks obviously.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern:
Affinity
EDH:
Rhys (Tokens)
Karrthus (Dragons)
Bruna (Auras OP)
Its much safer to excell your mana. It also has a 2/2 first striker on the field where as Chapins does not. That little knight has saved me from so much dmg. With chapins list I find I stabalize at around 3-6 dmg so lucky bolts that get through tend to kill me, but Soorani/Kiblers I tend to stabalize with 8-10 life points remaining.
Basically, yeah. The Knight baits out removal for your Baneslayers as well as accelerating you.
Brian Kibler published his tournament report today. His biggest suggestion, cut Baneslayer Angel for Elspeth (!).
It has also enjoyed some success on Magic Online as well.
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Path to Exile
3 Day of Judgment
4 Divination
4 Martial Coup
4 Mind Spring
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Everflowing Chalice
3 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Glacial Fortress
6 Island
8 Plains
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Celestial Purge
3 Flashfreeze
4 Negate
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Path to Exile
3 Day of Judgment
4 Martial Coup
4 Mind Spring
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Spreading Seas
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Glacial Fortress
6 Island
6 Plains
1 Tectonic Edge
3 Celestial Purge
4 Flashfreeze
4 Negate
1 Day of Judgment
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sam Black published an article today about this very deck on Star City Games (premium). I'm sure Kibler will do the same.
DISCUSS!
-Chris Alexander
www.tjcollect.com
Follow TJ's on Twitter:
www.twitter.com/tjcollect
DCI Certified Judge
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
First of all, you don't need permission to be called a control deck. Second, while they are ramping to a degree, this doesn't deny it from being a control deck. They are just trying to tap out for powerful spells.
In fact, the reasoning is that tapping out to do something powerful is better than bluffing a counter or even having the counter and just trading 1-for-1.
In addition, they actually boast a good percentage against Jund and Naya. You don't need permission to beat those decks. I really don't understand why people think permission is the end-all, be-all of control decks or that it's even required.
About the 1 Tectonic Edge: Sam Black said in his article, if he was to play it again, he'd add one as well as a 4th Path. He claimed he had trouble with Man Lands.
-Chris Alexander
www.tjcollect.com
Follow TJ's on Twitter:
www.twitter.com/tjcollect
DCI Certified Judge
-Chris Alexander
www.tjcollect.com
Follow TJ's on Twitter:
www.twitter.com/tjcollect
DCI Certified Judge
Currently, I'm trying to test the Marshal's Anthem recursion (1-of for now), which seems to work well with the ramp strategy. On top of that, I love its interaction with Martial Coup and top-decked creatures. If only we had more useful creatures to trigger with MA (like mulldrifter from last year), then we could get more value out of a late game recursion. At least recurred baneslayers are fun to play with.
MTG Rules Advisor
Standard
UW UW Control
B MBC (developing)
Legacy
WUG Bant
I run Flashfreeze mained though.
I've been working with a KotWo build that runs FF as the only countermagic and does similar ramping things. It seems to work very well. While the deck feels more like control than permission, if that is the flavor the metagame demands, that's what the deck needs to do.
I would like to note that my build (very similar to the Spreading Seas list) has had a much improved game against Naya, a match up I was having some trouble with playing Chapin's list.
Check out this deck, try it over the permission builds, the card advantadge engine in it is terrific.
Yes, the deck is ramping. But this doesn't make it NOT a control deck. It doesn't really matter what the cards in the deck are. There aren't specific "control" cards. If you know your history, the original Sligh decks were actually control decks!
Yes, blue has counter magic. But that's not really the point. Their reasoning is, if the counter magic sucks, why not tap out and do something powerful?
Only in that this goal is to tap out and be more proactive as oppose to reactive.
"Permission" is not a deck archetype, but a classification for a subset of spells (i.e. Counterspell, Mana Leak, Force of Will). Again, you don't need counter magic (permission) to be a control deck.
Probably just a typo on my part. lol.
-Chris Alexander
www.tjcollect.com
Follow TJ's on Twitter:
www.twitter.com/tjcollect
DCI Certified Judge
Every single time I've resolved Iona in competitive play, my opponent has started picking up his lands. Every single time I've resolved Elspeth, she's bought me a lot of turns (extremely valuable, don't get me wrong) but has eventually been dealt with.
Banner courtesy of Skizzik_NZ and Maelstrom Graphics
Currently Playing:
Anything U in Theogony IX's Cube: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5794231&postcount=1
Check out our EDH Cube! Constructive discussion welcomed. Hell, just a response would be nice.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8316611&postcount=1
Thoughts on Hindering Light?
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
-Chris Alexander
www.tjcollect.com
Follow TJ's on Twitter:
www.twitter.com/tjcollect
DCI Certified Judge
Now, if only the rest of Grixis was actually good...
...whereas the rest of UW actually IS good.
Why would you do that? What problems does it solve? What match up(s) does it make better? What are you cutting?
Hindering Light seems cute. That's about it.
-Chris Alexander
www.tjcollect.com
Follow TJ's on Twitter:
www.twitter.com/tjcollect
DCI Certified Judge
Most lists are running what, ~26 lands, correct? With our deck manipulation/draw power I rarely miss land drops, combined with a couple kicked EFC's its very possible to have her out T7 or so, which I don't think is such a stretch. She can be more game ending than Cruel Ultimatum can be in Grixis, and she can come down the same turn.
With so many people running mono-color decks at a competitive level I don't think I'd want to cut her from the main.
you can cast it on turn 7 if it's in your hand, and since it's a one-of that's hardly a given... or if you survive that long with dead cards in your hand, (dead until you have the mana to play it obviously)...which ain't gonna be easy against fast aggro decks... and it seems to me like most mono colored decks are actually fast to mid range aggro decks (RDW, Vampires)
anyways, peace, but I vote for Elspeth, or more removal/counters, or even Baneslayer/SoJI
I tested it, cut it, and i'm not looking back
gl
PS It's worth noting that before Chapin played it it only showed up in summoning trap, and if someone had posted a UW list with it before Chapin played it he would have been called a noob and derided to no end, funny like one Pro's successful run can change the people's perception of a card
Originally posted by thepchapin
too many people are relying far too heavily on netdecking instead of actually pushing themselves to find ways to advance the format.
Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning
Its much safer to excell your mana. It also has a 2/2 first striker on the field where as Chapins does not. That little knight has saved me from so much dmg. With chapins list I find I stabalize at around 3-6 dmg so lucky bolts that get through tend to kill me, but Soorani/Kiblers I tend to stabalize with 8-10 life points remaining.
Apples and Oranges. Elspeth is more like WoD or Calcite snapper than Iona. Iona is a win card, I tap out, I win. Elspeth is more a protective wall our Jace can hide behind. I also find making my things indestructible to be less effective than it should be, so I don't even ult her off if it will kill her in this deck sometimes. I don't think its one or the other, I run both. Elspeth giving you alot of turns to think is very synergistic with Iona.
Modern:
Affinity
EDH:
Rhys (Tokens)
Karrthus (Dragons)
Bruna (Auras OP)
Basically, yeah. The Knight baits out removal for your Baneslayers as well as accelerating you.
Brian Kibler published his tournament report today. His biggest suggestion, cut Baneslayer Angel for Elspeth (!).
-Chris Alexander
www.tjcollect.com
Follow TJ's on Twitter:
www.twitter.com/tjcollect
DCI Certified Judge