why not ex cap the creature they ramp into? I'll let myself be put on a 20 turn clock, with them down to 5 cards. hierarch's presence doesn't really scare me. I'd rather cycle a couple of times/cast chalice than deal with the hierarch. I'll deal with whatever she ramps into with a t3 day. Remember that this removal can hit MANLANDS as well!
Have fun Dispelling Jace. He would be broken if he was an instant.
meh. Never had issues with the RDW. Path for basically ball lightning/hell's thunder MB/sculler/architect/hulk chumper-->Flashfreeze +Purge coming in from the side. My bombs hit once and i win. SoLT has a large ass.
Some of the people playing 4 don't even play black!
Anyway, your build is just different.. more controllish with Negates and Scullers MD. I may test the scullers, but I'm not entirely convinced.
Scullers are usually at most a 1 for 1 and they get in the way of your Day of Judgements. Plus forcing the early black is a pain on your manabase.
What do you guys think about SotSW vs Filligree numbers?
I wouldn't personally run less than 3X Filigree in the MD - you'll pretty much always find one each game to dump into the GY and bringing even just 1 back through a OtV means at least 12 life, if not more. I run 1 SotSW and 1 Inkwell in the MD alongside Sharuum and it works just fine.
I really think people need to run less than 18 total creatures in the MD and loading up on the utility/control spells to control the game early. The creatures that should definately be in the MD are the following:
That's 17 right there and it's up to the player if they want to run an extra SotSW or an Inkwell. I would run an Inkwell really because of the syngery w/ Spreading Seas. The point of the deck is to control the game early w/ the Seas, JtN, O-Ring, DoJ or other control spells until you can use the Vault. I used to run Scullers but found they really weren't needed - yes, they have synergy when they come back from the Vault, but you should have enough out on the battlefield for it to not really matter so much. Plus, dropping it early on T2 means taking away from a control spell and the Sculler will more than likely eat removal.
Manlands - I would definately run at least 2X Celestial Colonnade in the MD. There are some rare games in which you won't have a "fattie" in the Vault to bring back so you need to go aggro mid-range w/ the Hulk or Architects. When that happens, it's nice to have another flying guy out there and the Collonade works perfect for that.
The Scullers are not good. When I was playing with them for the first two weeks I was convinced they were worth it, then I took them out to add spreading seas and realized that they weren't adding anything and were just eating removal. I like this deck because I rarely play a creautre before lost truths on turn 5, and the /5 is usually too big for most removal, so the opp. is sitting on a hand full of dead removal.
Pithing needle is an interesting thought, might deserve a 2-of in the SB.
I'm currently running a 2 filigree 2 SotSW build, might switch it to 3-1 since jund is such a joke matchup.
Nukeme: your build is missing spreading seas. Path to exile is OK, not huge but I run it as a 2-of. I think its foolish to run more paths then o-rings though, O-rings have much more utility and dont allow them to ramp if you are forced to use it early.
I really like running 2 negate MD 2 negate SB. Its just so nice to be holding it when they drop the post-OtV doj, or the mind sludge, or Jace TMS.
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T2: UWB Open the Vaults UWB UWG Milllies UWG RB Blightning Aggro RB
T1.5: RBU Underworld Dreams RBU
T1: U Mono-Blue Control U
These are the decks I played against in order:
Boss Naya - Won 2-1 -
Pyromancer Combo - Won 2-1
Turbofog - Won 2-1
Vampires - Won 2-0
Jund - 2-0
Jund - ID into top 8.
Top 8 random R/G Aggro Burn Hasty Deck - 1-2
I got land screwed in top 8. The R/G deck showed me his hand and the top 5 cards of his deck... all land. GG Bloodbraid and Jund Hackblade got there I was 1 land away from Day of Judgment.
Relics and Bond were meta choices. Several fogs, Pyromancer combos, and one other Open 'Em Up.
The win against Pyromancer in G3 was the highlight of the tournament. I had 2 Ascensions O-Ringed. I kept digging for a Relic and laying the beats with a Sphinx of Lost Truths. Eventually it goes to time. I have two Sphinx he is at 4 life. He takes some turns from me. Then it is turn 4 after time and he Banefires one of two Sphinxes. Passes turn I draw. He asks if its good game. I activate Celestial Colonnade and he throws his hand out and says he didn't know I played those and showed me the Naya Charm. Haha.
Overall I had fun. I was 1 card different than the other Open 'Em Up Player aside from sideboard and lands. He placed 9th. He ran 3 Baneslayers for 61 Cards. I cut a Baneslayer for 60. He ran more black producing lands and he ran Silences in Sideboard.
I see filigree angel, but whats the plan for landing her? Obviously shes a back breaker coming out of the GY with OtV, but how is she getting there in the first place? SoLT? What else?
I see filigree angel, but whats the plan for landing her? Obviously shes a back breaker coming out of the GY with OtV, but how is she getting there in the first place? SoLT? What else?
Yes SoLT, or Courier's Capsule early, or the ever faithful HARDCAST her. We have enough control I regularly get to the point to where I can cast her, not saying it is going to turn the game much at that point, but it is possible.
Basically that is why I run two, I don't have to see her early, and I don't have to see her late, but if I do it's that much better.
@Pithing Needle That may be interesting, not much that we can Pith that is game breaking, besides maybe a Walker, but it would come in handy in some match ups im sure. No idea what I'd pull out of the SB though.
@Iwerks. Nice results. Little confused about the Slayers though, they seem forced to me. Only thing I'd suggest, would be to drop the Borderposts for Chalices.
Personally if I were to implement Manlands, Id put in Creeping Tar Pits If it comes down to something where we have to win on the back of a land, I'd rather it be one that they can't block, and with only a 1 power difference, I don't find it to be a big deal.
I don't think there is any problem with using Manlands, other than what someone had stated earlier, about drawing a 6th land to OtV, and it being a Manland, which would suck lol. I just don't like the stuff coming into play tapped anymore, ever since dropping the Posts. I think it runs extremely streamlined now, in that every turn we have something to do, and turns 5 and 6 are most important.
I wont go into Tidehollow, because most of you know how I feel about them.
All in all I think we've got the MD, down to just about as good as we can't, with a few tweaks to come I'm sure, but the real issue is with SBs. Now I know that everyone is probably going to have a different on, due to the fact of individual metas, but i think, with the turning point of standard and U/W Control, we're all gonna face them....I'm calling it now, they are the new Jund.:-/
I see filigree angel, but whats the plan for landing her? Obviously shes a back breaker coming out of the GY with OtV, but how is she getting there in the first place? SoLT? What else?
You're hopefully cycling in the first 5 turns w/ Glassdusts and Architects to get 1 in hand, and then when you play a SoLT on T5 you throw her in the GY. If you have 3 in the MD, and you cycle early, chances are you will probably draw at least 1 and will be able to throw her in the GY via SoLT. Last resort if stocking your hand at the end of of a turn and throwing her in the GY via getting down to 7 cards at EOT.
At Gameday over the weekend, I had an awesome T5 where I had 1 Filigree in hand before I played the SoLT and then I draw 2 more, throwing all 3 in the GY. On T6 I Vaulted and it was GG. Usually your opponent will concede if you manage to Vault out just 1 because chances are you've already got a Courier's Capsule, Glassdust and Architects in there and you're gaining at least 12 life, if not more. W/ multiple Filigree's triggering when they get Vaulted the lifegain gets crazy.
why isnt sanguine blood in the main. wouldnt it be just easier to win the turn you vault?
unstable footing is a ***** the couple times i have played against it. if Monored rears its ugly head more, is it better to put paths in then? to deal with ball lightnings, hells thunders?
and for that case, thats the plan against the mirror ;O
why isnt sanguine blood in the main. wouldnt it be just easier to win the turn you vault?
unstable footing is a ***** the couple times i have played against it. if Monored rears its ugly head more, is it better to put paths in then? to deal with ball lightnings, hells thunders?
What is the problem with Unstable Footing? The 5 damage???? I sure hope it isn't the damage can't be prevented part? Oh well I'm confused.
Like it has been said, some people do run Paths for RDW, to get rid of the unearthers. I run Purges in the SB, for the same fact, but Path is a find choice in any matchup. Personal preference is all.
Sanguine "Bond" isn't needed in the MD, because when we OtV, it is usually game anyways, and it would just be a Win-More in the MD. The reason it is in the SB is because when ever we are playing against a control deck, they then get to choose what the are going to counter, because...well...they can't counter everything. It is more an Alt-win con versus control.
@Akkountent. That would be a dang nice hand lol. I myself would have probably scooped at that point.
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why isnt sanguine blood in the main. wouldnt it be just easier to win the turn you vault?
unstable footing is a ***** the couple times i have played against it. if Monored rears its ugly head more, is it better to put paths in then? to deal with ball lightnings, hells thunders?
Sanguine Bond isn't in the MD or even in alot of SB lists mainly because of 2 reasons: 1) it's gimicky meaning, yeah, it has great synergy w/ Filigree Angel but it's not consistent enough to warrent serious competitive play - more casual, kitchen-table Magic, and 2) the 2-black mana required to cast it can be a bit rough. The main spells in this deck run U/W, and only very few times will you need the B mana to hard-cast SotSW or Filigree. The B mana is really only for Ex Capsule in the SB and to hardcast Sharuum late in the game if you can't draw a OtV.
Vs RDW - you need to have Celestial Purge and Flashfreeze in the SB against this matchup. You'll take a little early damage from Goblin Guide and perhaps from a Hellspark and maybe a Ball Lightning, but you should be able to stabilize after T5 or so. And a couple early Spreading Seas on their Mountains can prevent them from playing Ball Lightning or Elemental Appeal. They don't have the gas to keep going after 5 or 6 turns and you cruise to victory. A couple people also like the side in Rest for the Weary for early lifegain so they'll be alive when they combo-out, but I haven't found it necessary just yet.
What is the problem with Unstable Footing? The 5 damage???? I sure hope it isn't the damage can't be prevented part? Oh well I'm confused.
Like it has been said, some people do run Paths for RDW, to get rid of the unearthers. I run Purges in the SB, for the same fact, but Path is a find choice in any matchup. Personal preference is all.
Sanguine "Bond" isn't needed in the MD, because when we OtV, it is usually game anyways, and it would just be a Win-More in the MD. The reason it is in the SB is because when ever we are playing against a control deck, they then get to choose what the are going to counter, because...well...they can't counter everything. It is more an Alt-win con versus control.
@Akkountent. That would be a dang nice hand lol. I myself would have probably scooped at that point.
Thanks for getting back to me, I guess I was still running the t8 version of OTV at that point, and it seemed pretty slow against mono red. i was running firewalker in the board and it didnt really seem to help. i just finished making your version on modo and havent seen mono red yet. hoping the dispels help. but from the first times i played, they brought in ricochet trap against the counters. no thoughts on hindering light? too expensive?
Sanguine Bond isn't in the MD or even in alot of SB lists mainly because of 2 reasons: 1) it's gimicky meaning, yeah, it has great synergy w/ Filigree Angel but it's not consistent enough to warrent serious competitive play - more casual, kitchen-table Magic, and 2) the 2-black mana required to cast it can be a bit rough. The main spells in this deck run U/W, and only very few times will you need the B mana to hard-cast SotSW or Filigree. The B mana is really only for Ex Capsule in the SB and to hardcast Sharuum late in the game if you can't draw a OtV.
Vs RDW - you need to have Celestial Purge and Flashfreeze in the SB against this matchup. You'll take a little early damage from Goblin Guide and perhaps from a Hellspark and maybe a Ball Lightning, but you should be able to stabilize after T5 or so. And a couple early Spreading Seas on their Mountains can prevent them from playing Ball Lightning or Elemental Appeal. They don't have the gas to keep going after 5 or 6 turns and you cruise to victory. A couple people also like the side in Rest for the Weary for early lifegain so they'll be alive when they combo-out, but I haven't found it necessary just yet.
I have been reading the forum and various explanations of sanguine bonds* help vs UW counters. and its really fun to play to kill people with it the couple times i have OTV'd it. I understand that the MD is really really greedy (making this deck ultra fun). But if Sanguine Bond* is good against one of your harder matchups, why leave it in the board, after our opponents have the chance to bring in grave hate?
I had in the SB and threw it out. The card-draw is nice, but irrelevent because there's so many other ways to draw and dig throug the deck. I would rather use 4X Negate; sometimes you may need that W mana that you used on the Hindering Light to cast something else.
I have been reading the forum and various explanations of sanguine bloods help vs UW counters. and its really fun to play to kill people with it the couple times i have OTV'd it. I understand that the MD is really really greedy (making this deck ultra fun). But if SB is good against one of your harder matchups, why leave it in the board, after our opponents have the chance to bring in grave hate?
I don't know about you, but I see hardly any GY hate. Very few Jund decks run Jund Charm anymore, and not a whole lot run Relics in the SB. Bojuka Bog was printed more for Extended Dredge decks and Legacy Reanimator Decks so I don't worry about it. I saw 1 Bojuka Bog over the weekend and that was from a "budget" Vamp build - there isn't alot of GY hate in "competitive" decks at the moment.
i have played a couple of decks online with Grave hate already. some opponents will admit: "yea. my deck has trouble with OtV". seemingly, we cant be the only ones piloting this awesome deck. are we just gonna keep the deck as is until there is a need against hate?
i have played a couple of decks online with Grave hate already. some opponents will admit: "yea. my deck has trouble with OtV". seemingly, we cant be the only ones piloting this awesome deck. are we just gonna keep the deck as is until there is a need against hate?
Well not much we can do about hate. If it is first game, unless you have Negate MB, you're just gonna have to deal with a Jund Charm, Relic of Progenitus, and/or Bojuka Bog. SB and or if you have the Negate, then we can actively stop 2 of those cards, pending we have the counters at the right time. Bojuka Bog we just can't get around, and that's something we may have to deal with, if this decks sees more top 8's.
But you have to look at the other GY decks of the past. Dredge, even when it was played in Standard, was susceptible to GY hate, and even more so in Extended. They still play it, and do quite well. If people begin to SB GY hate for use, I'll be happy, cause it means they are worried about us!
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I've seen a decent amount of GY hate online. Boj. bog in a vamps deck. Ravenous Trap in MBC (went 2-0 against MBC in 2 truly epic games). Seen a couple jund charms but they aren't popular. I feel like thats not really our biggest concern.
My question re: sanguine bond is this: how does boarding in a single one impact the matchup? I feel like you would need at least two to catch it with any reliability.
Dispel is awesome against UW control.
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T2: UWB Open the Vaults UWB UWG Milllies UWG RB Blightning Aggro RB
T1.5: RBU Underworld Dreams RBU
T1: U Mono-Blue Control U
My question re: sanguine bond is this: how does boarding in a single one impact the matchup? I feel like you would need at least two to catch it with any reliability.
Sanguine Bond is a "win-more" card as a 1-of in the SB. Yes, the Top 8 deck at PT San Diego did have one, but it was more "tech" at that event than anything else. Having 1 in the SB really doesn't do anything but take up a spot for something more relevent. If you're only running 1 then you probably won't be seeing it consistently enough for it to even matter.
My question re: sanguine bond is this: how does boarding in a single one impact the matchup? I feel like you would need at least two to catch it with any reliability.
We don't need to see it to win. Mainly in there to: If we get it early, we can try to cast it, depending on if it is countered, that's one less counter for anything else.
If we get it late, depending on if its countered, that's one less counter...Assuming they have any left due to countering all our other stuff.
If it gets OtV'd, and a Filigree is in the GY, its probably GG.
Mainly it is there to draw counters, if it hits play they not only have to counter OtV, they will have to counter Rest for the Wearys, soon they will run out of their 7 non-creature counters.
On an unrelated note....Who's ready for FFXIII
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Pithing needle would wreck GY hate. Name Bog vs anything with a good black presence like vamps, and relic against anything else. I would probably leave needle in the SB, as the only deck that I've seen that MD's GY hate is vamps, since they're fine with swapping 4 swamps for 4 bogs. Needle seems like a game 3 card, since you can't really expect your opponents to SB in GY (since they likely don't have it), and then if you do some in G2, bring it in G3.
Cigarette, can you post the list you will be bringing to this week's FNM right now? Perhaps a SB that would be tailored to match UW control/mill decks? There's several floating around my current meta, and like 0 RDW, so I'm far more concerned about UW. I don't feel like I know how the deck runs well enough yet to really start tailoring the list.
Pithing needle would wreck GY hate. Name Bog vs anything with a good black presence like vamps, and relic against anything else. I would probably leave needle in the SB, as the only deck that I've seen that MD's GY hate is vamps, since they're fine with swapping 4 swamps for 4 bogs. Needle seems like a game 3 card, since you can't really expect your opponents to SB in GY (since they likely don't have it), and then if you do some in G2, bring it in G3.
Cigarette, can you post the list you will be bringing to this week's FNM right now? Perhaps a SB that would be tailored to match UW control/mill decks? There's several floating around my current meta, and like 0 RDW, so I'm far more concerned about UW. I don't feel like I know how the deck runs well enough yet to really start tailoring the list.
Pithing Needle does nothing to bog, all they have to do is play the land. True it may help vs. the Relic, but not sure it's needed just yet.
Yeah I'll edit this post with my list for the Tourney coming up Wednesday.
Anyway, your build is just different.. more controllish with Negates and Scullers MD. I may test the scullers, but I'm not entirely convinced.
What do you guys think about SotSW vs Filligree numbers?
I wouldn't personally run less than 3X Filigree in the MD - you'll pretty much always find one each game to dump into the GY and bringing even just 1 back through a OtV means at least 12 life, if not more. I run 1 SotSW and 1 Inkwell in the MD alongside Sharuum and it works just fine.
I really think people need to run less than 18 total creatures in the MD and loading up on the utility/control spells to control the game early. The creatures that should definately be in the MD are the following:
4X Glassdust Hulk
4X Architects of Will
4X Sphinx of Lost Truths
3X Filigree Angel
1X Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1X Sharuum the Hegemon
That's 17 right there and it's up to the player if they want to run an extra SotSW or an Inkwell. I would run an Inkwell really because of the syngery w/ Spreading Seas. The point of the deck is to control the game early w/ the Seas, JtN, O-Ring, DoJ or other control spells until you can use the Vault. I used to run Scullers but found they really weren't needed - yes, they have synergy when they come back from the Vault, but you should have enough out on the battlefield for it to not really matter so much. Plus, dropping it early on T2 means taking away from a control spell and the Sculler will more than likely eat removal.
Manlands - I would definately run at least 2X Celestial Colonnade in the MD. There are some rare games in which you won't have a "fattie" in the Vault to bring back so you need to go aggro mid-range w/ the Hulk or Architects. When that happens, it's nice to have another flying guy out there and the Collonade works perfect for that.
Pithing needle is an interesting thought, might deserve a 2-of in the SB.
I'm currently running a 2 filigree 2 SotSW build, might switch it to 3-1 since jund is such a joke matchup.
Nukeme: your build is missing spreading seas. Path to exile is OK, not huge but I run it as a 2-of. I think its foolish to run more paths then o-rings though, O-rings have much more utility and dont allow them to ramp if you are forced to use it early.
I really like running 2 negate MD 2 negate SB. Its just so nice to be holding it when they drop the post-OtV doj, or the mind sludge, or Jace TMS.
UWB Open the Vaults UWB
UWG Milllies UWG
RB Blightning Aggro RB
T1.5:
RBU Underworld Dreams RBU
T1:
U Mono-Blue Control U
These are the decks I played against in order:
Boss Naya - Won 2-1 -
Pyromancer Combo - Won 2-1
Turbofog - Won 2-1
Vampires - Won 2-0
Jund - 2-0
Jund - ID into top 8.
Top 8 random R/G Aggro Burn Hasty Deck - 1-2
I got land screwed in top 8. The R/G deck showed me his hand and the top 5 cards of his deck... all land. GG Bloodbraid and Jund Hackblade got there I was 1 land away from Day of Judgment.
3 Plains
5 Island
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Marsh Flats
2 Kabira Crossroads
2 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Swamp
Creatures
4 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Architects of Will
4 Glassdust Hulk
2 Baneslayer Angel
4 Filigree Angel
3 Day of Judgment
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Open the Vaults
2 Journey to Nowhere
4 Spreading Seas
Artifacts:
1 Mistvein Borderpost
2 Fieldmist Borderpost
2 Courier's Capsule
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sanguine Bond
4 Negate
3 Flashfreeze
2 Journey to Nowhere
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Day of Judgement
Relics and Bond were meta choices. Several fogs, Pyromancer combos, and one other Open 'Em Up.
The win against Pyromancer in G3 was the highlight of the tournament. I had 2 Ascensions O-Ringed. I kept digging for a Relic and laying the beats with a Sphinx of Lost Truths. Eventually it goes to time. I have two Sphinx he is at 4 life. He takes some turns from me. Then it is turn 4 after time and he Banefires one of two Sphinxes. Passes turn I draw. He asks if its good game. I activate Celestial Colonnade and he throws his hand out and says he didn't know I played those and showed me the Naya Charm. Haha.
Overall I had fun. I was 1 card different than the other Open 'Em Up Player aside from sideboard and lands. He placed 9th. He ran 3 Baneslayers for 61 Cards. I cut a Baneslayer for 60. He ran more black producing lands and he ran Silences in Sideboard.
Yes SoLT, or Courier's Capsule early, or the ever faithful HARDCAST her. We have enough control I regularly get to the point to where I can cast her, not saying it is going to turn the game much at that point, but it is possible.
Basically that is why I run two, I don't have to see her early, and I don't have to see her late, but if I do it's that much better.
@Pithing Needle That may be interesting, not much that we can Pith that is game breaking, besides maybe a Walker, but it would come in handy in some match ups im sure. No idea what I'd pull out of the SB though.
@Iwerks. Nice results. Little confused about the Slayers though, they seem forced to me. Only thing I'd suggest, would be to drop the Borderposts for Chalices.
Personally if I were to implement Manlands, Id put in Creeping Tar Pits If it comes down to something where we have to win on the back of a land, I'd rather it be one that they can't block, and with only a 1 power difference, I don't find it to be a big deal.
I don't think there is any problem with using Manlands, other than what someone had stated earlier, about drawing a 6th land to OtV, and it being a Manland, which would suck lol. I just don't like the stuff coming into play tapped anymore, ever since dropping the Posts. I think it runs extremely streamlined now, in that every turn we have something to do, and turns 5 and 6 are most important.
I wont go into Tidehollow, because most of you know how I feel about them.
All in all I think we've got the MD, down to just about as good as we can't, with a few tweaks to come I'm sure, but the real issue is with SBs. Now I know that everyone is probably going to have a different on, due to the fact of individual metas, but i think, with the turning point of standard and U/W Control, we're all gonna face them....I'm calling it now, they are the new Jund.:-/
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GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
You're hopefully cycling in the first 5 turns w/ Glassdusts and Architects to get 1 in hand, and then when you play a SoLT on T5 you throw her in the GY. If you have 3 in the MD, and you cycle early, chances are you will probably draw at least 1 and will be able to throw her in the GY via SoLT. Last resort if stocking your hand at the end of of a turn and throwing her in the GY via getting down to 7 cards at EOT.
At Gameday over the weekend, I had an awesome T5 where I had 1 Filigree in hand before I played the SoLT and then I draw 2 more, throwing all 3 in the GY. On T6 I Vaulted and it was GG. Usually your opponent will concede if you manage to Vault out just 1 because chances are you've already got a Courier's Capsule, Glassdust and Architects in there and you're gaining at least 12 life, if not more. W/ multiple Filigree's triggering when they get Vaulted the lifegain gets crazy.
unstable footing is a ***** the couple times i have played against it. if Monored rears its ugly head more, is it better to put paths in then? to deal with ball lightnings, hells thunders?
and for that case, thats the plan against the mirror ;O
Don't double post
What is the problem with Unstable Footing? The 5 damage???? I sure hope it isn't the damage can't be prevented part? Oh well I'm confused.
Like it has been said, some people do run Paths for RDW, to get rid of the unearthers. I run Purges in the SB, for the same fact, but Path is a find choice in any matchup. Personal preference is all.
Sanguine "Bond" isn't needed in the MD, because when we OtV, it is usually game anyways, and it would just be a Win-More in the MD. The reason it is in the SB is because when ever we are playing against a control deck, they then get to choose what the are going to counter, because...well...they can't counter everything. It is more an Alt-win con versus control.
@Akkountent. That would be a dang nice hand lol. I myself would have probably scooped at that point.
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Standard
UBU/B ControlBU
EDH
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
Sanguine Bond isn't in the MD or even in alot of SB lists mainly because of 2 reasons: 1) it's gimicky meaning, yeah, it has great synergy w/ Filigree Angel but it's not consistent enough to warrent serious competitive play - more casual, kitchen-table Magic, and 2) the 2-black mana required to cast it can be a bit rough. The main spells in this deck run U/W, and only very few times will you need the B mana to hard-cast SotSW or Filigree. The B mana is really only for Ex Capsule in the SB and to hardcast Sharuum late in the game if you can't draw a OtV.
Vs RDW - you need to have Celestial Purge and Flashfreeze in the SB against this matchup. You'll take a little early damage from Goblin Guide and perhaps from a Hellspark and maybe a Ball Lightning, but you should be able to stabilize after T5 or so. And a couple early Spreading Seas on their Mountains can prevent them from playing Ball Lightning or Elemental Appeal. They don't have the gas to keep going after 5 or 6 turns and you cruise to victory. A couple people also like the side in Rest for the Weary for early lifegain so they'll be alive when they combo-out, but I haven't found it necessary just yet.
Thanks for getting back to me, I guess I was still running the t8 version of OTV at that point, and it seemed pretty slow against mono red. i was running firewalker in the board and it didnt really seem to help. i just finished making your version on modo and havent seen mono red yet. hoping the dispels help. but from the first times i played, they brought in ricochet trap against the counters. no thoughts on hindering light? too expensive?
Yeah, every deck has "ultimate" draws and plays, and I just seemed to hit it 1 time over the weekend in the tourney.
I have been reading the forum and various explanations of sanguine bonds* help vs UW counters. and its really fun to play to kill people with it the couple times i have OTV'd it. I understand that the MD is really really greedy (making this deck ultra fun). But if Sanguine Bond* is good against one of your harder matchups, why leave it in the board, after our opponents have the chance to bring in grave hate?
I had in the SB and threw it out. The card-draw is nice, but irrelevent because there's so many other ways to draw and dig throug the deck. I would rather use 4X Negate; sometimes you may need that W mana that you used on the Hindering Light to cast something else.
I don't know about you, but I see hardly any GY hate. Very few Jund decks run Jund Charm anymore, and not a whole lot run Relics in the SB. Bojuka Bog was printed more for Extended Dredge decks and Legacy Reanimator Decks so I don't worry about it. I saw 1 Bojuka Bog over the weekend and that was from a "budget" Vamp build - there isn't alot of GY hate in "competitive" decks at the moment.
Well not much we can do about hate. If it is first game, unless you have Negate MB, you're just gonna have to deal with a Jund Charm, Relic of Progenitus, and/or Bojuka Bog. SB and or if you have the Negate, then we can actively stop 2 of those cards, pending we have the counters at the right time. Bojuka Bog we just can't get around, and that's something we may have to deal with, if this decks sees more top 8's.
But you have to look at the other GY decks of the past. Dredge, even when it was played in Standard, was susceptible to GY hate, and even more so in Extended. They still play it, and do quite well. If people begin to SB GY hate for use, I'll be happy, cause it means they are worried about us!
Currently Playing
Standard
UBU/B ControlBU
EDH
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
My question re: sanguine bond is this: how does boarding in a single one impact the matchup? I feel like you would need at least two to catch it with any reliability.
Dispel is awesome against UW control.
UWB Open the Vaults UWB
UWG Milllies UWG
RB Blightning Aggro RB
T1.5:
RBU Underworld Dreams RBU
T1:
U Mono-Blue Control U
Sanguine Bond is a "win-more" card as a 1-of in the SB. Yes, the Top 8 deck at PT San Diego did have one, but it was more "tech" at that event than anything else. Having 1 in the SB really doesn't do anything but take up a spot for something more relevent. If you're only running 1 then you probably won't be seeing it consistently enough for it to even matter.
We don't need to see it to win. Mainly in there to: If we get it early, we can try to cast it, depending on if it is countered, that's one less counter for anything else.
If we get it late, depending on if its countered, that's one less counter...Assuming they have any left due to countering all our other stuff.
If it gets OtV'd, and a Filigree is in the GY, its probably GG.
Mainly it is there to draw counters, if it hits play they not only have to counter OtV, they will have to counter Rest for the Wearys, soon they will run out of their 7 non-creature counters.
On an unrelated note....Who's ready for FFXIII
Currently Playing
Standard
UBU/B ControlBU
EDH
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
Cigarette, can you post the list you will be bringing to this week's FNM right now? Perhaps a SB that would be tailored to match UW control/mill decks? There's several floating around my current meta, and like 0 RDW, so I'm far more concerned about UW. I don't feel like I know how the deck runs well enough yet to really start tailoring the list.
Pithing Needle does nothing to bog, all they have to do is play the land. True it may help vs. the Relic, but not sure it's needed just yet.
Yeah I'll edit this post with my list for the Tourney coming up Wednesday.
4x Architects of Will
3x Glassdust Hulk
2x Filigree Angel
2x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
3x Sphinx of the Lost Truth
1x Sharuum the Hegemon
1x Inkwell Leviathan
Spells: 6
3x Open the Vaults
3x Day of Judgment
Enchantments: 9
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Journey to Nowhere
4x Spreading Seas
3x Courier's Capsule
4x Everflowing Chalice
3x Executioner's Capsule
Lands: 20
7x Island
8x Plain
2x Swamp
2x Drowned Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
3x Negate
3x Celestial Purge
2x Rest for the Weary
1x Sanguine Bond
3x Flash Freeze
3x Dispel
Currently Playing
Standard
UBU/B ControlBU
EDH
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
It looks like goblins with 2 lackeys or ichorid with 3 trolls, doesn't it? Especially that 3 sphinxes part.
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