Has anyone playtested Mind Control for this deck? I've played it a couple times and it's great fodder for the Sphinx of Lost Truths. It's also great for hard-casting in a rough time to steal that one creature giving you trouble.
Every UW deck I've seen in tourney practice on MTGO is running O-ring. It's their backup in case something like a planewalker slips through or gets through on a counter war.
I run path over Journey because in the RDW matchup being able to knock out those hells thunder and hellsparks before they swing is crucial. RDW isn't a particularly bad matchup for me. Granted the first game sucks but I rarely lose post-SB games.
I took the outlanders out of my board, they weren't doing anything against RDW and boros isnt a difficult match anyway, and I wasn't boarding them in against Jund. I really felt like it was important to free up some space for the UW matchup. I'm pretty sure I am going to put in 3x Dispel, seems like a perfect card for winning counter wars, and allows for a t7 OtV.
UGH there is so much non-basic land hate out right now, I am heavily considering switching back to basics only and putting in chalices.
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T2: UWB Open the Vaults UWB UWG Milllies UWG RB Blightning Aggro RB
T1.5: RBU Underworld Dreams RBU
T1: U Mono-Blue Control U
@reizencroft I'd strongly recommend putting some B in there somewhere, I personally have no idea, why it wasn't in there before with 6 of your creatures not being able to be cast.
The only problem with Luminarch Ascension is that, they keep 7 MD counters to stop non-creature spells, they run atleast 3 MD O-Rings, the problem with Luminarch is that, we would really need to cast it on turn 2, which if we aren't on the play, is a time that U/W saves their mana for counters, and for the fact that since we need that card earlier, because Luminarch being drawn Turn 12 isn't gonna be worth a ☺☺☺☺, we would have to run bare minimum 3 and maybe even 4. I don't see that much stuff that we can safely take out of our deck.
I believe I will be following suit of Spoons, and TheNidhogg, and take out the Outlanders, replacing them with Dispels.
@Spoons, I really do think that Non-Basics are the way to go. They don't hurt us as mush as half the other decks, due to the fact that we honestly don't need to color fix all that much.
@Cursed Wouter, Obelisk of Alara: I don't think this is needed in this deck. Sure it is multi purpose but, there are a lot of other cards, that do what the Obelisk does, only a lot more efficient.
I also use to run the Borderposts, but have found that they aren't needed, I'd -2 and +2 Chalice. The Chalice is just so much better imo, allows for turn earlier OtV, and also if you do become short on mana, offers late game 1 costs paid.
@Travisty, There isn't too much of an answer for the Bloodwitch, but really don't need that much of an answer. They get it out T5, we have either already OtV, or should be doing it the next turn or 2. With either Sphinx, or Filigree out, they aren't going to be attacking with a Bloodwitch.
As for PoE Vs. Journey, more of personal preference. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, but both are adequate for this deck.
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Currently Playing Standard UBU/B ControlBU EDH GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
U/W Control: -3 Journey -3 DoJ
+2 Rest for the Weary +1 Sanguine Bond +3 Negate
Which makes sense to get the negates and alternate wincon in, but I'm not sure what the UW gusy will board in.
Does it seem safer to drop the executioner's capsule too? Or do we want to have a way to deal with Iona naming white?
I think dropping Journey is probably the right play, but I'm not sure about DoJ, incase they board in Jwar Jwar Sphinx.
Could we run a telemin performance just in case?
Well the Ex Caps are in there for Iona, because if they are smart they will name white. But I can definitely see the plus side of leaving in DoJ, because I have been seeing more and more variations packing either Baneslayer, WoD, or Jwar Jwar. So it may be smart to leav them in. I really am not sure how to SB against them now, due to the addition of the Dispels. We'd want to have in the Negates, Dispels, Sanguine, and Rests. But we'd also want to leave in DoJ, and Ex Caps. I'm at a loss right now lol.
Here's to a BUNCH of playtesting
I did actually buy 2 Telemins last week, in the possibility that we may use them sometime, and if we were able to land them then it would be GG.
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Currently Playing Standard UBU/B ControlBU EDH GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
Excuse me for the non-productive post. I'm pretty excited to see this deck, overall. I've played Boros Bushwhacker, Barely Boros, RDW, and Mono-White Tokens so far, and they've all been very boring to play. I've been playing around with this deck recently, and I'm pleased at how fun it is to run. There's a lot of stuff going on, instead of "drop a curved creature, attack, pass". Keep up the good work, guys.
Even though budget discussion is frowned upon, I'm noticing a lot of these lists don't have Jace, the Mind Sculptor in them. I'm glad to see the deck is runnable without him, because at this particular point in time I'm pretty strapped until the end of the month.
So from what I gather UW Control is the worst matchup? How's it fair against Grixis?
Excuse me for the non-productive post. I'm pretty excited to see this deck, overall. I've played Boros Bushwhacker, Barely Boros, RDW, and Mono-White Tokens so far, and they've all been very boring to play. I've been playing around with this deck recently, and I'm pleased at how fun it is to run. There's a lot of stuff going on, instead of "drop a curved creature, attack, pass". Keep up the good work, guys.
Even though budget discussion is frowned upon, I'm noticing a lot of these lists don't have Jace, the Mind Sculptor in them. I'm glad to see the deck is runnable without him, because at this particular point in time I'm pretty strapped until the end of the month.
So from what I gather UW Control is the worst matchup? How's it fair against Grixis?
The deck is LOADS of fun to play, thats the one reason ive become so hooked on it. The only downside is on MTGO most people just concede once you resolve OTV, so you miss out on some of the satisfaction of victory. The deck definitely doesnt need Jace, you could play it but I feel like you would gain very little. UW control is nasty, but not unbeatable. With after board, with spell pierce and negates in the deck, really its just a slower match. The deck has so much gas/card draw, its really easy to just go midrange and beat on them with hulks.
Grixis is a similarly tough matchup. Mostly for me this was caused by running non-basics into ruinblasters, like someone talked about above. I've only played a few matches though so its hard to say. I maindeck negates as well so I just hold them and wait for the cruel-u.
Luminarch isnt worth a spot in the board IMO. It just gives them an early target for O-ring.
I'm switching my manabase over to what cigarette is running, all basics with the chalices, I just can't handle the amount of non-basic hate that I'm getting in tourney practice on MTGO.
Rest for the weary is huge, cant believe I went so long w/o playing it. Not sure if its needed in the UW matchup tho.
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T2: UWB Open the Vaults UWB UWG Milllies UWG RB Blightning Aggro RB
T1.5: RBU Underworld Dreams RBU
T1: U Mono-Blue Control U
Rest for the weary is huge, cant believe I went so long w/o playing it. Not sure if its needed in the UW matchup tho.
Pretty sure it's necessary to make sure you get the Sanguine Bond to hit big. They have to counter the bond, and if they don't, they have to counter your rests and your OtV. Just another thing they have to waste counters on.
I'm also on the fence about the manabase - I see the value of chalice, but I don't want to keep a hand with 2 lands and a chalice just to see it get O-Ring'd or whatever away. I feel like the nonbasics carry less risk than chalice, while actually getting us colors as well. Running 4 Fortress, 2 Catacombs right now, and it's working pretty well.
1. i used just 24 lands/60 cards, with no borderpost or chalice. i liked how it worked... with borderposts i didn't find myself ramping too often, so basically it was just a tapland that dies to pulse. but i was thinking, i kind of want to cut down on nonbasics... like ruinblaster and tedge both slow us and we want to go off fast so making our opponents answers ineffective seems good?
2. celestial purge... i think i am all in on it. helps vs the red mages, but also stops manabarbs which lost me the game vs naya when it landed
1. i used just 24 lands/60 cards, with no borderpost or chalice. i liked how it worked... with borderposts i didn't find myself ramping too often, so basically it was just a tapland that dies to pulse. but i was thinking, i kind of want to cut down on nonbasics... like ruinblaster and tedge both slow us and we want to go off fast so making our opponents answers ineffective seems good?
2. celestial purge... i think i am all in on it. helps vs the red mages, but also stops manabarbs which lost me the game vs naya when it landed
Somewhat confused by this post. To the first point, there have been many posts on the past few pages, talking about cutting the posts and limiting the nons.
To point 2. I sure hope you are using Purges, and hopefully they are in the SB.
@Spoons. As TheNidhogg stated, the Rests in the U/W matchup is basically there to force counters with the Sanguine, and if they don't, then it starts to hurt.
@TheNidhogg. I see your concern with the O-Rings, but in all honesty, that is, what, one matchup?
I wouldn't mind running a few Nons, as you can see I'm running 2 Drowned Catacombs, mainly the best advice is not to rely on them, as in 4 Glacials, 4 Catacombs, 4 Arcanes. Pretty much, just limit the amount that hit the field early, so that they have dead to semi dead cards.
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Currently Playing Standard UBU/B ControlBU EDH GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
@TheNidhogg. I see your concern with the O-Rings, but in all honesty, that is, what, one matchup?
I wouldn't mind running a few Nons, as you can see I'm running 2 Drowned Catacombs, mainly the best advice is not to rely on them, as in 4 Glacials, 4 Catacombs, 4 Arcanes. Pretty much, just limit the amount that hit the field early, so that they have dead to semi dead cards.
I think posts/chalices are vulnerable to a lot, everything from O Rings to Duress.
Quick list of things that run O-Rings/Duress/Pulse/Artifact Destruction
UW Control
3 O Rings Main
Jund
3-4 Maelstrom Pulse
Possible Duress in the side
Boss Naya:
2 O Rings Main
1 O Ring Side
GW Aggro
3 O Rings Main
Mythic Bant
3 Bant Charm in the side
Tricked out White Weenie
2 O Rings Main
2 O Rings Side
Vampires
4 Duress Side
Baneslayer Junk
3-4 Pulse
(Last one in the Side)
Some of these matchups don't run the Ruinblasters or Tectonic Edges. I just feel that if you're going to go mostly basics, go mostly basics and don't open yourself to the manascrew on other fronts.
After playing against jund, I also felt that the outlanders are suboptimal. I still wasn't able to use the luminarch on tournament play because I wasn't paired to any control decks. Yeah, I think that dispels are better sideboard cards, because the only spell that can really hurt us are instants.
How bout using pilgrims eye? It can really save us from mana screw, it's a chump blocker, it flies and can be OTV'ed.
After playing against jund, I also felt that the outlanders are suboptimal. I still wasn't able to use the luminarch on tournament play because I wasn't paired to any control decks. Yeah, I think that dispels are better sideboard cards, because the only spell that can really hurt us are instants.
How bout using pilgrims eye? It can really save us from mana screw, it's a chump blocker, it flies and can be OTV'ed.
Outlanders aren't meant for Jund, they're mainly for RDW. But I do agree, with the evolution of the deck, they probably aren't needed.
When I use to run 14 lands I ran the Pilgrims, but once I up'd the mana, and with what we cast, we really don't get mana screwed.
Now if you just want a chump blocker that flies and can be OtV'd, you might as well just use Ornithopter. But once again, don't believe at all that they're needed.
@TheNidhogg. I can see the concern with the chalices, but I don't want to hold back the deck, due to being iffy about a card or two. If they O-Ring a Chalice early, sure it MAY slow us down a turn or two, but that does atleast keep it away from something else.
All in all I'd rather take my chances to ramp and get it Ring'd, rather than hope I my first 6 land drops, so I can OtV on time.
Has there been any major changes to your decks this past weekend, having played in both FNM and game day?
And I'm curious as to why no one is running Thopter Foundry and/or Master Transmuter. It seems like Thopter is a great outlet to sack tokens at the end of your opponent's turn right before you OtV on your next turn. Also, a one-of Master seems like an awesome alternate win-con as you flash in a Sphinx of your choice.
what about hindering light? The list that made that top eight used it. does know one here find that extra mana for an extra card too much?
and when i have played against mono red/runetrap bs on modo, ricochet trap is pretty brutal.
Chalice is key - All borderposts are being swapped for Chalices. Borderposts are really slow, and if i'm going to risk getting pulsed, I'm going to want to ramp to an earlier OtV, instead of getting set back a turn. Most people aren't doing much turn 2 anyways.
Don't play too much countermagic. I was hurting my combo by playing cancels. Cutting the cancels for Courier's Capsule. May be moving the negates to the board, but I liked having the ability to counter powerful stuff. You aren't U/W control: you need to be proactive about filling your graveyard and winning. But if you get sludged/blightninged too many times, you regret the negates not MD.
Still stand by the scullers - except for the vamp matchup. They have SO much dead removal that the scullers just die. I don't mind the bolts/bursts because those are 2/3 damage i didn't have to take. Scullers probably took 15 damage over the course of FNM, eating all sorts of burn.
Instant speed removal is pro. Paths are great in the deck. Deck will look like this now. I think it's much more competitive.
1) Something I'm noticing is that people aren't really running manlands in their lists. Why did they get the cut? Because of their vulnerability to Tectonic Edge/Ruinblaster?
2) I'm also surprised by the lack of Pithing Needles in the board. Messes up all planeswalkers/manlands/quests/acensions/etc. (White weenie loves siding in Luminarch Ascension against me)
3) May start cutting Vedalken Outlander. He's not getting sided in too much. Would want ex caps in the board. Would probably go -3 Outlander +1 Dispel +2 Exec Caps.
4) View on Inkwell Leviathan in the SB? Good against U/W, but still dies to DoJ.
Chalice is key - All borderposts are being swapped for Chalices. Borderposts are really slow, and if i'm going to risk getting pulsed, I'm going to want to ramp to an earlier OtV, instead of getting set back a turn. Most people aren't doing much turn 2 anyways.
I think I did underestimate the impact of ramping vs. vulnerability. This is a good point, and 3 chalices have been added to my deck.
Instant speed removal is pro. Paths are great in the deck. Deck will look like this now. I think it's much more competitive.
Cigarette and I have been running ex-caps as maindeck "instant speed removal." Of course they can get played around, but returning them with OtV is sick. I do NOT want to give my opponents land, especially if it gets them counter mana, or whatever. Plus, what do you do vs a Noble Hierarch? Just laugh?
1) Something I'm noticing is that people aren't really running manlands in their lists. Why did they get the cut? Because of their vulnerability to Tectonic Edge/Ruinblaster?
2) I'm also surprised by the lack of Pithing Needles in the board. Messes up all planeswalkers/manlands/quests/acensions/etc. (White weenie loves siding in Luminarch Ascension against me)
3) May start cutting Vedalken Outlander. He's not getting sided in too much. Would want ex caps in the board.
1) As you said, getting that early OtV can be really important. I loved Colonnade in my slower build, as another wincon, but to streamline the deck I cut it. Partly the vulnerability, but it's disheartening to topdeck it for your 6th land you needed to cast OtV with.
2) Pithing needle may be an option that needs to be explored, but I think O Ring suffices enough of the time.
3) I've cut Vedalken Outlander as well, but I put in the Rest for the Weary / Sanguine Bond combo in, that I didn't have. I'm up in the air about my board right now. Trying to squeeze in Dispel/Path to Exile in the board maybe.
EDIT: Also, Sharuum is a boss, especially if they didn't see it game 1. You have negate? I don't care, play Sharuum and return Sphinx of the Steel Win!
Chalice is key - All borderposts are being swapped for Chalices. Borderposts are really slow, and if i'm going to risk getting pulsed, I'm going to want to ramp to an earlier OtV, instead of getting set back a turn. Most people aren't doing much turn 2 anyways.
Don't play too much countermagic. I was hurting my combo by playing cancels. Cutting the cancels for Courier's Capsule. May be moving the negates to the board, but I liked having the ability to counter powerful stuff. You aren't U/W control: you need to be proactive about filling your graveyard and winning. But if you get sludged/blightninged too many times, you regret the negates not MD.
Still stand by the scullers - except for the vamp matchup. They have SO much dead removal that the scullers just die. I don't mind the bolts/bursts because those are 2/3 damage i didn't have to take. Scullers probably took 15 damage over the course of FNM, eating all sorts of burn.
Instant speed removal is pro. Paths are great in the deck. Deck will look like this now. I think it's much more competitive.
1) Something I'm noticing is that people aren't really running manlands in their lists. Why did they get the cut? Because of their vulnerability to Tectonic Edge/Ruinblaster?
2) I'm also surprised by the lack of Pithing Needles in the board. Messes up all planeswalkers/manlands/quests/acensions/etc. (White weenie loves siding in Luminarch Ascension against me)
3) May start cutting Vedalken Outlander. He's not getting sided in too much. Would want ex caps in the board. Would probably go -3 Outlander +1 Dispel +2 Exec Caps.
4) View on Inkwell Leviathan in the SB? Good against U/W, but still dies to DoJ.
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STANDARD
U/B kontroll
U/W Kontroll
:symb::symu::symg: In A :symr::symu::symg:
EXTENDED
Jund's second rampage! :symb::symr::symg:
Cigarette and I have been running ex-caps as maindeck "instant speed removal." Of course they can get played around, but returning them with OtV is sick. I do NOT want to give my opponents land, especially if it gets them counter mana, or whatever. Plus, what do you do vs a Noble Hierarch? Just laugh?
PAth Whatever they ramp into. I'll path a Knight any day of the week, or let them overcommit into a DoJ. Hierarch isn't a threat by itself. It'll die just as efficiently to a Day as that 8/8 Knight.
1) As you said, getting that early OtV can be really important. I loved Colonnade in my slower build, as another wincon, but to streamline the deck I cut it. Partly the vulnerability, but it's disheartening to topdeck it for your 6th land you needed to cast OtV with.
Valid. But Manlands are great surprises for people. Won several games at gameday due to people forgetting that I had a Filigree Angel/ Glassdust, Sphinx of Lost Truths, AND the Colonnade.
2) Pithing needle may be an option that needs to be explored, but I think O Ring suffices enough of the time.
O-ring the chalices, then you can pithing the jace. Ring becomes that stone rain., because even if they destroy it, it'll come back with no counters. Kick that chalice twice - O-ring and that's 4 wasted mana.
3) I've cut Vedalken Outlander as well, but I put in the Rest for the Weary / Sanguine Bond combo in, that I didn't have. I'm up in the air about my board right now. Trying to squeeze in Dispel/Path to Exile in the board maybe.
Not a huge fan for Rest. Rather use that 2 mana to make sure OtV resolves. The sanguine will do the rest.
EDIT: Also, Sharuum is a boss, especially if they didn't see it game 1. You have negate? I don't care, play Sharuum and return Sphinx of the Steel Win!
I wonder how many U/W players side out their scatters to side in more negates. That would be very amusing.
Why are people running 4 Architect/3 Glassdust? It seems to have more of the cycler that is easier to cycle at any given time. And past 2 architect is worthless except in multiplayer.
PAth Whatever they ramp into. I'll path a Knight any day of the week, or let them overcommit into a DoJ. Hierarch isn't a threat by itself. It'll die just as efficiently to a Day as that 8/8 Knight.
I don't want to let little guys like Hierarch ramp them. I like having the exec caps to deal with them, along with journey. I guess they still ramp if they're on the play, but if you go first, it's all upside.
Valid. But Manlands are great surprises for people. Won several games at gameday due to people forgetting that I had a Filigree Angel/ Glassdust, Sphinx of Lost Truths, AND the Colonnade.
Weigh it then.. if colonnades work better and you aren't scared of the LD, go for it.
O-ring the chalices, then you can pithing the jace. Ring becomes that stone rain., because even if they destroy it, it'll come back with no counters. Kick that chalice twice - O-ring and that's 4 wasted mana.
Sure.. or Negate the jace. Or Dispel. Or whatever.
Not a huge fan for Rest. Rather use that 2 mana to make sure OtV resolves. The sanguine will do the rest.
Great card in RDW matchup. 1 card 8 matches their most card efficient burn - the hell's thunder which is 1 for 8. It's got utility in other matchups like Turbofog/UW Control.
Why are people running 4 Architect/3 Glassdust? It seems to have more of the cycler that is easier to cycle at any given time. And past 2 architect is worthless except in multiplayer.
Hardcast Architects can win games by buying you time. You reorder + get a blocker.
I don't want to let little guys like Hierarch ramp them. I like having the exec caps to deal with them, along with journey. I guess they still ramp if they're on the play, but if you go first, it's all upside.
why not ex cap the creature they ramp into? I'll let myself be put on a 20 turn clock, with them down to 5 cards. hierarch's presence doesn't really scare me. I'd rather cycle a couple of times/cast chalice than deal with the hierarch. I'll deal with whatever she ramps into with a t3 day. Remember that this removal can hit MANLANDS as well!
Great card in RDW matchup. 1 card 8 matches their most card efficient burn - the hell's thunder which is 1 for 8. It's got utility in other matchups like Turbofog/UW Control.
meh. Never had issues with the RDW. Path for basically ball lightning/hell's thunder MB/sculler/architect/hulk chumper-->Flashfreeze +Purge coming in from the side. My bombs hit once and i win. SoLT has a large ass.
I run path over Journey because in the RDW matchup being able to knock out those hells thunder and hellsparks before they swing is crucial. RDW isn't a particularly bad matchup for me. Granted the first game sucks but I rarely lose post-SB games.
I took the outlanders out of my board, they weren't doing anything against RDW and boros isnt a difficult match anyway, and I wasn't boarding them in against Jund. I really felt like it was important to free up some space for the UW matchup. I'm pretty sure I am going to put in 3x Dispel, seems like a perfect card for winning counter wars, and allows for a t7 OtV.
UGH there is so much non-basic land hate out right now, I am heavily considering switching back to basics only and putting in chalices.
UWB Open the Vaults UWB
UWG Milllies UWG
RB Blightning Aggro RB
T1.5:
RBU Underworld Dreams RBU
T1:
U Mono-Blue Control U
seems like a fine build
The only problem with Luminarch Ascension is that, they keep 7 MD counters to stop non-creature spells, they run atleast 3 MD O-Rings, the problem with Luminarch is that, we would really need to cast it on turn 2, which if we aren't on the play, is a time that U/W saves their mana for counters, and for the fact that since we need that card earlier, because Luminarch being drawn Turn 12 isn't gonna be worth a ☺☺☺☺, we would have to run bare minimum 3 and maybe even 4. I don't see that much stuff that we can safely take out of our deck.
I believe I will be following suit of Spoons, and TheNidhogg, and take out the Outlanders, replacing them with Dispels.
@Spoons, I really do think that Non-Basics are the way to go. They don't hurt us as mush as half the other decks, due to the fact that we honestly don't need to color fix all that much.
@Cursed Wouter, Obelisk of Alara: I don't think this is needed in this deck. Sure it is multi purpose but, there are a lot of other cards, that do what the Obelisk does, only a lot more efficient.
I also use to run the Borderposts, but have found that they aren't needed, I'd -2 and +2 Chalice. The Chalice is just so much better imo, allows for turn earlier OtV, and also if you do become short on mana, offers late game 1 costs paid.
@Travisty, There isn't too much of an answer for the Bloodwitch, but really don't need that much of an answer. They get it out T5, we have either already OtV, or should be doing it the next turn or 2. With either Sphinx, or Filigree out, they aren't going to be attacking with a Bloodwitch.
As for PoE Vs. Journey, more of personal preference. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, but both are adequate for this deck.
Currently Playing
Standard
UBU/B ControlBU
EDH
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
I see Cigarette's SB plan is:
U/W Control: -3 Journey -3 DoJ
+2 Rest for the Weary +1 Sanguine Bond +3 Negate
Which makes sense to get the negates and alternate wincon in, but I'm not sure what the UW gusy will board in.
Does it seem safer to drop the executioner's capsule too? Or do we want to have a way to deal with Iona naming white?
I think dropping Journey is probably the right play, but I'm not sure about DoJ, incase they board in Jwar Jwar Sphinx.
Could we run a telemin performance just in case?
Well the Ex Caps are in there for Iona, because if they are smart they will name white. But I can definitely see the plus side of leaving in DoJ, because I have been seeing more and more variations packing either Baneslayer, WoD, or Jwar Jwar. So it may be smart to leav them in. I really am not sure how to SB against them now, due to the addition of the Dispels. We'd want to have in the Negates, Dispels, Sanguine, and Rests. But we'd also want to leave in DoJ, and Ex Caps. I'm at a loss right now lol.
Here's to a BUNCH of playtesting
I did actually buy 2 Telemins last week, in the possibility that we may use them sometime, and if we were able to land them then it would be GG.
Currently Playing
Standard
UBU/B ControlBU
EDH
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
Even though budget discussion is frowned upon, I'm noticing a lot of these lists don't have Jace, the Mind Sculptor in them. I'm glad to see the deck is runnable without him, because at this particular point in time I'm pretty strapped until the end of the month.
So from what I gather UW Control is the worst matchup? How's it fair against Grixis?
The deck is LOADS of fun to play, thats the one reason ive become so hooked on it. The only downside is on MTGO most people just concede once you resolve OTV, so you miss out on some of the satisfaction of victory. The deck definitely doesnt need Jace, you could play it but I feel like you would gain very little. UW control is nasty, but not unbeatable. With after board, with spell pierce and negates in the deck, really its just a slower match. The deck has so much gas/card draw, its really easy to just go midrange and beat on them with hulks.
Grixis is a similarly tough matchup. Mostly for me this was caused by running non-basics into ruinblasters, like someone talked about above. I've only played a few matches though so its hard to say. I maindeck negates as well so I just hold them and wait for the cruel-u.
Luminarch isnt worth a spot in the board IMO. It just gives them an early target for O-ring.
I'm switching my manabase over to what cigarette is running, all basics with the chalices, I just can't handle the amount of non-basic hate that I'm getting in tourney practice on MTGO.
Rest for the weary is huge, cant believe I went so long w/o playing it. Not sure if its needed in the UW matchup tho.
UWB Open the Vaults UWB
UWG Milllies UWG
RB Blightning Aggro RB
T1.5:
RBU Underworld Dreams RBU
T1:
U Mono-Blue Control U
Pretty sure it's necessary to make sure you get the Sanguine Bond to hit big. They have to counter the bond, and if they don't, they have to counter your rests and your OtV. Just another thing they have to waste counters on.
I'm also on the fence about the manabase - I see the value of chalice, but I don't want to keep a hand with 2 lands and a chalice just to see it get O-Ring'd or whatever away. I feel like the nonbasics carry less risk than chalice, while actually getting us colors as well. Running 4 Fortress, 2 Catacombs right now, and it's working pretty well.
1. i used just 24 lands/60 cards, with no borderpost or chalice. i liked how it worked... with borderposts i didn't find myself ramping too often, so basically it was just a tapland that dies to pulse. but i was thinking, i kind of want to cut down on nonbasics... like ruinblaster and tedge both slow us and we want to go off fast so making our opponents answers ineffective seems good?
2. celestial purge... i think i am all in on it. helps vs the red mages, but also stops manabarbs which lost me the game vs naya when it landed
Somewhat confused by this post. To the first point, there have been many posts on the past few pages, talking about cutting the posts and limiting the nons.
To point 2. I sure hope you are using Purges, and hopefully they are in the SB.
@Spoons. As TheNidhogg stated, the Rests in the U/W matchup is basically there to force counters with the Sanguine, and if they don't, then it starts to hurt.
@TheNidhogg. I see your concern with the O-Rings, but in all honesty, that is, what, one matchup?
I wouldn't mind running a few Nons, as you can see I'm running 2 Drowned Catacombs, mainly the best advice is not to rely on them, as in 4 Glacials, 4 Catacombs, 4 Arcanes. Pretty much, just limit the amount that hit the field early, so that they have dead to semi dead cards.
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I think posts/chalices are vulnerable to a lot, everything from O Rings to Duress.
Quick list of things that run O-Rings/Duress/Pulse/Artifact Destruction
UW Control
3 O Rings Main
Jund
3-4 Maelstrom Pulse
Possible Duress in the side
Boss Naya:
2 O Rings Main
1 O Ring Side
GW Aggro
3 O Rings Main
Mythic Bant
3 Bant Charm in the side
Tricked out White Weenie
2 O Rings Main
2 O Rings Side
Vampires
4 Duress Side
Baneslayer Junk
3-4 Pulse
(Last one in the Side)
Some of these matchups don't run the Ruinblasters or Tectonic Edges. I just feel that if you're going to go mostly basics, go mostly basics and don't open yourself to the manascrew on other fronts.
How bout using pilgrims eye? It can really save us from mana screw, it's a chump blocker, it flies and can be OTV'ed.
Outlanders aren't meant for Jund, they're mainly for RDW. But I do agree, with the evolution of the deck, they probably aren't needed.
When I use to run 14 lands I ran the Pilgrims, but once I up'd the mana, and with what we cast, we really don't get mana screwed.
Now if you just want a chump blocker that flies and can be OtV'd, you might as well just use Ornithopter. But once again, don't believe at all that they're needed.
@TheNidhogg. I can see the concern with the chalices, but I don't want to hold back the deck, due to being iffy about a card or two. If they O-Ring a Chalice early, sure it MAY slow us down a turn or two, but that does atleast keep it away from something else.
All in all I'd rather take my chances to ramp and get it Ring'd, rather than hope I my first 6 land drops, so I can OtV on time.
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GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
And I'm curious as to why no one is running Thopter Foundry and/or Master Transmuter. It seems like Thopter is a great outlet to sack tokens at the end of your opponent's turn right before you OtV on your next turn. Also, a one-of Master seems like an awesome alternate win-con as you flash in a Sphinx of your choice.
and when i have played against mono red/runetrap bs on modo, ricochet trap is pretty brutal.
Don't play too much countermagic. I was hurting my combo by playing cancels. Cutting the cancels for Courier's Capsule. May be moving the negates to the board, but I liked having the ability to counter powerful stuff. You aren't U/W control: you need to be proactive about filling your graveyard and winning. But if you get sludged/blightninged too many times, you regret the negates not MD.
Still stand by the scullers - except for the vamp matchup. They have SO much dead removal that the scullers just die. I don't mind the bolts/bursts because those are 2/3 damage i didn't have to take. Scullers probably took 15 damage over the course of FNM, eating all sorts of burn.
Instant speed removal is pro. Paths are great in the deck. Deck will look like this now. I think it's much more competitive.
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Filigree Angel
2 Sphinx of Steel Wind
4 Glassdust Hulk
3 Architects of Will
4 Sphinx of Lost Truths
Spells(19):
4 Open the Vaults
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Path to Exile
3 Day of Judgment
3 Negate
3 Courier's Capsule
4 Marsh Flats
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Drowned Catacomb
3 Everflowing Chalice
4 Island
4 Plain
2 Swamp
3 Celestial Purge
3 Flashfreeze
3 Vedalken Outlander
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sanguine Bond
2 Dispel
1) Something I'm noticing is that people aren't really running manlands in their lists. Why did they get the cut? Because of their vulnerability to Tectonic Edge/Ruinblaster?
2) I'm also surprised by the lack of Pithing Needles in the board. Messes up all planeswalkers/manlands/quests/acensions/etc. (White weenie loves siding in Luminarch Ascension against me)
3) May start cutting Vedalken Outlander. He's not getting sided in too much. Would want ex caps in the board. Would probably go -3 Outlander +1 Dispel +2 Exec Caps.
4) View on Inkwell Leviathan in the SB? Good against U/W, but still dies to DoJ.
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I think I did underestimate the impact of ramping vs. vulnerability. This is a good point, and 3 chalices have been added to my deck.
Cigarette and I have been running ex-caps as maindeck "instant speed removal." Of course they can get played around, but returning them with OtV is sick. I do NOT want to give my opponents land, especially if it gets them counter mana, or whatever. Plus, what do you do vs a Noble Hierarch? Just laugh?
1) As you said, getting that early OtV can be really important. I loved Colonnade in my slower build, as another wincon, but to streamline the deck I cut it. Partly the vulnerability, but it's disheartening to topdeck it for your 6th land you needed to cast OtV with.
2) Pithing needle may be an option that needs to be explored, but I think O Ring suffices enough of the time.
3) I've cut Vedalken Outlander as well, but I put in the Rest for the Weary / Sanguine Bond combo in, that I didn't have. I'm up in the air about my board right now. Trying to squeeze in Dispel/Path to Exile in the board maybe.
My current iteration of this:
5 Island
5 Plains
2 Drowned Catacob
3 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
3 Glassdust Hulk
2 Filigree Angel
4 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Architects of Will
1 Sharuum the Hegemon
2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
3 Day of Judgment
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Journey to Nowhere
3 Courier's Capsule
4 Spreading Seas
3 Executioner's Capsule
3 Everflowing Chalice
1 Day of Judgment
3 Flashfreeze
4 Negate
3 Celestial Purge
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sanguine Bond
2 Rest for the Weary
EDIT: Also, Sharuum is a boss, especially if they didn't see it game 1. You have negate? I don't care, play Sharuum and return Sphinx of the Steel Win!
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Valid. But Manlands are great surprises for people. Won several games at gameday due to people forgetting that I had a Filigree Angel/ Glassdust, Sphinx of Lost Truths, AND the Colonnade.
O-ring the chalices, then you can pithing the jace. Ring becomes that stone rain., because even if they destroy it, it'll come back with no counters. Kick that chalice twice - O-ring and that's 4 wasted mana.
Not a huge fan for Rest. Rather use that 2 mana to make sure OtV resolves. The sanguine will do the rest.
I wonder how many U/W players side out their scatters to side in more negates. That would be very amusing.
Why are people running 4 Architect/3 Glassdust? It seems to have more of the cycler that is easier to cycle at any given time. And past 2 architect is worthless except in multiplayer.
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I don't want to let little guys like Hierarch ramp them. I like having the exec caps to deal with them, along with journey. I guess they still ramp if they're on the play, but if you go first, it's all upside.
Weigh it then.. if colonnades work better and you aren't scared of the LD, go for it.
Sure.. or Negate the jace. Or Dispel. Or whatever.
Great card in RDW matchup. 1 card 8 matches their most card efficient burn - the hell's thunder which is 1 for 8. It's got utility in other matchups like Turbofog/UW Control.
True story
Hardcast Architects can win games by buying you time. You reorder + get a blocker.
Have fun Dispelling Jace. He would be broken if he was an instant.
meh. Never had issues with the RDW. Path for basically ball lightning/hell's thunder MB/sculler/architect/hulk chumper-->Flashfreeze +Purge coming in from the side. My bombs hit once and i win. SoLT has a large ass.
Some of the people playing 4 don't even play black!
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