it's a solid list. Have you considered bringing rekindle back into the main board?
something like -1 Firebrand, +1 Rekindle
I'm Interested to know how it goes. Keep us posted!
i don't want to cut Firebrand. if you read post #25, i discussed the scenario of having a 1 mountain/1 light up the stage opening hand. if i can go turn 1, Firebrand, it saves that opening hand and i'll probably even draw a land off LUTS to not miss a beat.
idk how good Rekindle is compared to Experimental Frenzy. i'd just assume i want the full playset of Frenzies before i consider another 4 drop. i only have space for three 4 drops in the main, plus having treasure maps in my 'board makes me want a full playset for Frenzies even more!
test 2 vs Simic w/SB. 0-1.
SB +4 cindervines, +2 treasure map, +1 collision/colossus, +1 experimental frenzy. -4 lightning strike, -4 wizard's lightning.
(kept shocks to feed LUTS.)
test 3 vs IzzetDrakes. 1-0.
no SB. theoretically tho: +4 cindervines, +4 collision/colossus, +2 treasure map, +1 experimental frenzy, +1 lava coil. -4 chainwhirler, -4 lightning strike, -4 wizard's lightning.
(Chainwhirler doesn't kill any of his creatures.)
r1 vs EsperMidrange. 2-0 games, 1-0 matches.
SB: +1 experimental frenzy. -1 chainwhirler. (he had Hero of Precinct One and Seraph of the Scales but i still felt frenzy #4 was more important than chainwhirler #4.)
notes: game 2, he Kaya's Wrath'd away my board and even dropped a Lyra Dawnbringer. but my active Experimental Frenzy was too much for him.
r2 vs RBgoblins, 4-0 games, 2-0 matches.
SB: none. i felt my maindeck was optimal vs him.
notes: budget deck, played by a kid...
test 4 vs IzzetDrakes (again), 0-1.
SB: not yet.
notes: my lack of 4-dmg removal hurt here.
test 5 vs IzzetDrakes w/SB, 1-0.
SB: see test 3.
notes: close but my 'board removal was too good vs him.
r3 vs monoUmill, 6-0 games, 3-0 matches.
SB: +4 cindervines, +2 treasure map, +1 collision/colossus, +1 experimental frenzy. -4 lightning strike, -4 wizard's lightining.
notes: he barely had any creatures (except Wall of Lost Thoughts) but had whole bunch of non-creature spells for my Cindervines. wasn't close.
summary: "Gruul Aggro" was well-positioned tonight. guy who normally runs WW didn't show up for whatever reason.
@hellohero: if you want to add a Rekindling Phoenix, my only dead card tonight were extra SB Lava Coils. good luck!
returning player here highly interested in piloting this deck type as I've always been in love with anything RDW, what cards are we losing to the rotation (if there are any)?
Not been playing for years now so I don't have any idea on the current standard rotation.
returning player here highly interested in piloting this deck type as I've always been in love with anything RDW, what cards are we losing to the rotation (if there are any)?
Not been playing for years now so I don't have any idea on the current standard rotation.
Thanks!
We lose quite a bit in rotation, mostly everything. That isn't until late fall though.
Heartfire won me 9 games in a row last night on Arena.....I'll add a playset to my current build that's for sure!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
Heartfire won me 9 games in a row last night on Arena.....I'll add a playset to my current build that's for sure!
How did it win the game for you? Not doubting you but unless they are at exactly 4 and are going to wipe your board next turn, when is it better than lightning strike? What would you remove for it?
Other than specifically unique situations, I dont see it as a useable card. Lava coil is better vs creatures and lightning strike is better targeted damage.
11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
Is this built with pretty much assuming that Mono-U is dead? I mean, it prolly is, but was that the intent? Otherwise, how do you handle it?
You also have a lower creature count than previous versions of this. Seem ok if they happen to be trying for a craving or a contempt but otherwise you are just trading 1 for 1 with a removal spell still. I'd rather have 4x firebrand to deal with llanowar and mono-u
How has Tibalt, Rakish Investigator been? I haven't tested him yet, I've always had my doubts about him, but I guess against control the tokens could contribute enough damage to make a difference.
I'm seriously thinking about getting my Chandra playset, ever since they spoiled her I though it could be a good replacement for Experimental Frenzy, Chandra may not give you those stupid turns in which you chain 9 damage together, but won't punish you for getting a Goblin Chainwhirler or a Skewer The Critics on top of your library after you have exhausted your mana, and her static ability seems really good against any deck with creatures, on top of that, depending on how the metagame evolves, she may very well have the chance to use her ultimate against control, which should win you the game right there. Drawing multiples is still bad but seems less crappy than multiple Frenzies, if playing against aggro at least, if your opponent bites the bullet and beats Chandra to death with creatures, having a second one in hand won't be much of a downside.
I'm seriously thinking about getting my Chandra playset, ever since they spoiled her I though it could be a good replacement for Experimental Frenzy, Chandra may not give you those stupid turns in which you chain 9 damage together, but won't punish you for getting a Goblin Chainwhirler or a Skewer The Critics on top of your library after you have exhausted your mana, and her static ability seems really good against any deck with creatures, on top of that, depending on how the metagame evolves, she may very well have the chance to use her ultimate against control, which should win you the game right there. Drawing multiples is still bad but seems less crappy than multiple Frenzies, if playing against aggro at least, if your opponent bites the bullet and beats Chandra to death with creatures, having a second one in hand won't be much of a downside.
What do you think about a 2/2 split between Experimental Frenzy and Chandra, Fire Artisan?
Both seem bad in multiples, so this way you could mitigate that somewhat
Experimental Frenzy works much better in cheap, burn, The Flame of Keld style Red decks. Chandra, Fire Artisan is stronger in Red decks with higher 3-4 CMC creature count - Whirlers, Phoenixes, etc. All depends on deck build. I don't think mixing up them is a good idea, it's either one or the other.
Personally as a White Weenie player I've yet to lose a game vs RDW with Chandra. Playing her is pretty much dead turn for Red player and in games vs other aggro decks it might be deadly. Still I'd go with her over Frenzy right now until control decks will play more planeswalker removal instead of Mortify.
Experimental Frenzy works much better in cheap, burn, The Flame of Keld style Red decks. Chandra, Fire Artisan is stronger in Red decks with higher 3-4 CMC creature count - Whirlers, Phoenixes, etc. All depends on deck build. I don't think mixing up them is a good idea, it's either one or the other.
Personally as a White Weenie player I've yet to lose a game vs RDW with Chandra. Playing her is pretty much dead turn for Red player and in games vs other aggro decks it might be deadly. Still I'd go with her over Frenzy right now until control decks will play more planeswalker removal instead of Mortify.
Why do you think a mixup is a bad idea? I think it would be much better to draw one of each, then twice the same one.
Firstly because of the legendary rule, and because the second Experimental Frenzy does nothing for us (until the first one gets removed obviously).
Secondly, they even complement each other in that if you top card off of Experimental Frenzy is you second land or simply to expensive, you could just exile it once with Chandra, Fire Artisan and get another shot.
Experimental Frenzy works much better in cheap, burn, The Flame of Keld style Red decks. Chandra, Fire Artisan is stronger in Red decks with higher 3-4 CMC creature count - Whirlers, Phoenixes, etc. All depends on deck build. I don't think mixing up them is a good idea, it's either one or the other.
Personally as a White Weenie player I've yet to lose a game vs RDW with Chandra. Playing her is pretty much dead turn for Red player and in games vs other aggro decks it might be deadly. Still I'd go with her over Frenzy right now until control decks will play more planeswalker removal instead of Mortify.
You don't want more 4 CMC cards with Frenzy around. Frenzy is great because it can provide you huge card advantage by playing multiple cards in a row and by doing so you have to stay on low on curve. Especially when you have Runaway Steam-Kin or 2 on board, you can just go off the turn you cast it.
Chandra is more consistent, allows to easly play maindeck 3-4 drops and is harder to interact with (ppl right now play more enchantment removal). She's better for slower iterations of the deck and in games that card value matters.
From my experience you have to be really explosive with aggro decks right now and Frenzy allows for much more devastating turns compared to Chandra.
You have to realise that both cards take 1 of your turns off and payoff of both cards is either next explosive Frenzy turn or slow, grindy Chandra turns. If you get both Frenzy and Chandra on board as mono Red player you're losing 2 turns for what? Filtering lands
You don't want more 4 CMC cards with Frenzy around. Frenzy is great because it can provide you huge card advantage by playing multiple cards in a row and by doing so you have to stay on low on curve.
Exactly! But by doing a 2/2 split you don't add any more 4 CMC cards. And hitting your second Frienzy off of your fist is bad, Chandra would be much better.
It seems like you would be comparing drawing chandra to drawing a cheap burn spell, instead of comparing getting two frienzys vs. one frienzy and one chandra
Exactly! But by doing a 2/2 split you don't add any more 4 CMC cards. And hitting your second Frienzy off of your fist is bad, Chandra would be much better.
It seems like you would be comparing drawing chandra to drawing a cheap burn spell, instead of comparing getting two frienzys vs. one frienzy and one chandra
But you want more 4 CMC cards with Chandra in deck... You want those Phoenixes mainboard. And Frenzy doesn't want it.
Personally I wouldn't even run 4 copies of either Frenzy or Chandra maindeck. Even in RNA people were cutting these for more burn.
But you can easly test this split on Arena and post results here
Exactly! But by doing a 2/2 split you don't add any more 4 CMC cards. And hitting your second Frienzy off of your fist is bad, Chandra would be much better.
It seems like you would be comparing drawing chandra to drawing a cheap burn spell, instead of comparing getting two frienzys vs. one frienzy and one chandra
But you want more 4 CMC cards with Chandra in deck... You want those Phoenixes mainboard. And Frenzy doesn't want it.
Personally I wouldn't even run 4 copies of either Frenzy or Chandra maindeck. Even in RNA people were cutting these for more burn.
But you can easly test this split on Arena and post results here
Me personally, I am using a different approach with success. I'm currently on 18 lands, 4 skewers, 2 risk factors and no 4 drops. This way, I try to be as low to the ground and as aggressiv as possible
Exactly! But by doing a 2/2 split you don't add any more 4 CMC cards. And hitting your second Frienzy off of your fist is bad, Chandra would be much better.
It seems like you would be comparing drawing chandra to drawing a cheap burn spell, instead of comparing getting two frienzys vs. one frienzy and one chandra
But you want more 4 CMC cards with Chandra in deck... You want those Phoenixes mainboard. And Frenzy doesn't want it.
Personally I wouldn't even run 4 copies of either Frenzy or Chandra maindeck. Even in RNA people were cutting these for more burn.
But you can easly test this split on Arena and post results here
Me personally, I am using a different approach with success. I'm currently on 18 lands, 4 skewers, 2 risk factors and no 4 drops. This way, I try to be as low to the ground and as aggressiv as possible
That version is perfectly fine. The only reason that was abandoned is because of how dismal it is vs Mono-U tempo. That might not be a problem anymore though haha
4 fanatical firebrand
4 ghitu lavarunner
4 goblin chainwhirler
4 runaway steam-kin
4 viashino pyromancer
(16) instants/sorceries:
4 light up the stage
4 lightning strike
4 shock
4 wizard’s lightning
3 experimental frenzy
(21) lands:
12 mountain
4 rootbound crag
4 stomping ground
1 forest
4 cindervines
4 collision//colossus
4 lava coil
2 treasure map
1 experimental frenzy
limited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkfx2kA8gok&feature=emb_logo
limited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3RYiZJFCK0
limited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j18HlKybrm8&feature=emb_logo
standard - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiAEzfAgpbI
standard - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vNr_4ubfMg
standard - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJcwpxraL-g
modern - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8MyVNLVYNw
modern - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-M5ffoArnY
modern - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_yQEBOPi_w&feature=emb_logo
extended - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLpUB9zpyr4&feature=emb_logo
it's a solid list. Have you considered bringing rekindle back into the main board?
something like -1 Firebrand, +1 Rekindle
I'm Interested to know how it goes. Keep us posted!
Burn
i don't want to cut Firebrand. if you read post #25, i discussed the scenario of having a 1 mountain/1 light up the stage opening hand. if i can go turn 1, Firebrand, it saves that opening hand and i'll probably even draw a land off LUTS to not miss a beat.
idk how good Rekindle is compared to Experimental Frenzy. i'd just assume i want the full playset of Frenzies before i consider another 4 drop. i only have space for three 4 drops in the main, plus having treasure maps in my 'board makes me want a full playset for Frenzies even more!
limited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkfx2kA8gok&feature=emb_logo
limited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3RYiZJFCK0
limited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j18HlKybrm8&feature=emb_logo
standard - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiAEzfAgpbI
standard - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vNr_4ubfMg
standard - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJcwpxraL-g
modern - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8MyVNLVYNw
modern - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-M5ffoArnY
modern - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_yQEBOPi_w&feature=emb_logo
extended - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLpUB9zpyr4&feature=emb_logo
4 fanatical firebrand
4 ghitu lavarunner
4 goblin chainwhirler
4 runaway steam-kin
4 viashino pyromancer
(16) instants/sorceries:
4 light up the stage
4 lightning strike
4 shock
4 wizard’s lightning
3 experimental frenzy
(21) lands:
12 mountain
4 rootbound crag
4 stomping ground
1 forest
4 cindervines
4 collision//colossus
4 lava coil
2 treasure map
1 experimental frenzy
3/30/19 tourney report:
14 players, 3 rounds, *1st place*
test 1 vs Simic (no Nexxus.) 2-0.
no SB.
test 2 vs Simic w/SB. 0-1.
SB +4 cindervines, +2 treasure map, +1 collision/colossus, +1 experimental frenzy. -4 lightning strike, -4 wizard's lightning.
(kept shocks to feed LUTS.)
test 3 vs IzzetDrakes. 1-0.
no SB. theoretically tho: +4 cindervines, +4 collision/colossus, +2 treasure map, +1 experimental frenzy, +1 lava coil. -4 chainwhirler, -4 lightning strike, -4 wizard's lightning.
(Chainwhirler doesn't kill any of his creatures.)
r1 vs EsperMidrange. 2-0 games, 1-0 matches.
SB: +1 experimental frenzy. -1 chainwhirler. (he had Hero of Precinct One and Seraph of the Scales but i still felt frenzy #4 was more important than chainwhirler #4.)
notes: game 2, he Kaya's Wrath'd away my board and even dropped a Lyra Dawnbringer. but my active Experimental Frenzy was too much for him.
r2 vs RBgoblins, 4-0 games, 2-0 matches.
SB: none. i felt my maindeck was optimal vs him.
notes: budget deck, played by a kid...
test 4 vs IzzetDrakes (again), 0-1.
SB: not yet.
notes: my lack of 4-dmg removal hurt here.
test 5 vs IzzetDrakes w/SB, 1-0.
SB: see test 3.
notes: close but my 'board removal was too good vs him.
r3 vs monoUmill, 6-0 games, 3-0 matches.
SB: +4 cindervines, +2 treasure map, +1 collision/colossus, +1 experimental frenzy. -4 lightning strike, -4 wizard's lightining.
notes: he barely had any creatures (except Wall of Lost Thoughts) but had whole bunch of non-creature spells for my Cindervines. wasn't close.
summary: "Gruul Aggro" was well-positioned tonight. guy who normally runs WW didn't show up for whatever reason.
@hellohero: if you want to add a Rekindling Phoenix, my only dead card tonight were extra SB Lava Coils. good luck!
limited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkfx2kA8gok&feature=emb_logo
limited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3RYiZJFCK0
limited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j18HlKybrm8&feature=emb_logo
standard - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiAEzfAgpbI
standard - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vNr_4ubfMg
standard - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJcwpxraL-g
modern - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8MyVNLVYNw
modern - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-M5ffoArnY
modern - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_yQEBOPi_w&feature=emb_logo
extended - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLpUB9zpyr4&feature=emb_logo
returning player here highly interested in piloting this deck type as I've always been in love with anything RDW, what cards are we losing to the rotation (if there are any)?
Not been playing for years now so I don't have any idea on the current standard rotation.
Thanks!
We lose quite a bit in rotation, mostly everything. That isn't until late fall though.
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
How did it win the game for you? Not doubting you but unless they are at exactly 4 and are going to wipe your board next turn, when is it better than lightning strike? What would you remove for it?
Other than specifically unique situations, I dont see it as a useable card. Lava coil is better vs creatures and lightning strike is better targeted damage.
Moment's Craving was a problem for me but with Heartfire I just sac the targeted creature and burn him for 4 or kill a creature/PW.
For reference:
4x Ghitu Lavarunner
4x Viashino Pyromancer
4x Runaway Steam-Kin
4x Fanatical Firebrand
Burn:
4x Lightning Strike
4x Shock
4x Skewer the Critics
4x Wizard's Lightning
4x Heartfire
4x Light Up the Stage
2x Risk Factor
Lands:
10x Mountain
4x Rootbound Crag
4x Stomping Ground
4x Tibalt, Rakish Instigator
4x Cindervines
4x Return to Nature
3x Collision//Colossus
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
You also have a lower creature count than previous versions of this. Seem ok if they happen to be trying for a craving or a contempt but otherwise you are just trading 1 for 1 with a removal spell still. I'd rather have 4x firebrand to deal with llanowar and mono-u
Gonna give it a try though. See whats what.
How did it work out for you?
What do you think about a 2/2 split between Experimental Frenzy and Chandra, Fire Artisan?
Both seem bad in multiples, so this way you could mitigate that somewhat
Personally as a White Weenie player I've yet to lose a game vs RDW with Chandra. Playing her is pretty much dead turn for Red player and in games vs other aggro decks it might be deadly. Still I'd go with her over Frenzy right now until control decks will play more planeswalker removal instead of Mortify.
From my friends experience Tibalt, Rakish Instigator is great sideboard card vs Sultai (stops Wildgrowth Walker and Hydroid Krasis which is a LOT) and less vs Controls. Against everything else he's rather weak.
Why do you think a mixup is a bad idea? I think it would be much better to draw one of each, then twice the same one.
Firstly because of the legendary rule, and because the second Experimental Frenzy does nothing for us (until the first one gets removed obviously).
Secondly, they even complement each other in that if you top card off of Experimental Frenzy is you second land or simply to expensive, you could just exile it once with Chandra, Fire Artisan and get another shot.
And yes, I agree, playing Chandra, Fire Artisan is pretty much a dead turn, but isn't it the same for Experimental Frenzy?
I've actually had the opposite as a RDW player vs WW. Only two in our shop, but i face one of them almost weekly in the finals.
4x Ghitu lavarunner
4x viashino pyromancer
4x runaway steam-kin
4x goblin chainwhirler
4x lightning strike
4x shock
3x wizard's lightning
4x light up the stage
2x Skewer the Critics
3x Chandra, Fire Artisan
2x Tibalt, Rakish Instigator
4x Lava Coil
2x Dire fleet daredevil
3x Banefire
2x Legion Warboss
2x Rekindling Phoenix
This is the list I'm going to run today.
You don't want more 4 CMC cards with Frenzy around. Frenzy is great because it can provide you huge card advantage by playing multiple cards in a row and by doing so you have to stay on low on curve. Especially when you have Runaway Steam-Kin or 2 on board, you can just go off the turn you cast it.
Chandra is more consistent, allows to easly play maindeck 3-4 drops and is harder to interact with (ppl right now play more enchantment removal). She's better for slower iterations of the deck and in games that card value matters.
From my experience you have to be really explosive with aggro decks right now and Frenzy allows for much more devastating turns compared to Chandra.
You have to realise that both cards take 1 of your turns off and payoff of both cards is either next explosive Frenzy turn or slow, grindy Chandra turns. If you get both Frenzy and Chandra on board as mono Red player you're losing 2 turns for what? Filtering lands
Exactly! But by doing a 2/2 split you don't add any more 4 CMC cards. And hitting your second Frienzy off of your fist is bad, Chandra would be much better.
It seems like you would be comparing drawing chandra to drawing a cheap burn spell, instead of comparing getting two frienzys vs. one frienzy and one chandra
But you want more 4 CMC cards with Chandra in deck... You want those Phoenixes mainboard. And Frenzy doesn't want it.
Personally I wouldn't even run 4 copies of either Frenzy or Chandra maindeck. Even in RNA people were cutting these for more burn.
But you can easly test this split on Arena and post results here
Me personally, I am using a different approach with success. I'm currently on 18 lands, 4 skewers, 2 risk factors and no 4 drops. This way, I try to be as low to the ground and as aggressiv as possible
That version is perfectly fine. The only reason that was abandoned is because of how dismal it is vs Mono-U tempo. That might not be a problem anymore though haha
https://youtu.be/Zx7v48Ee-Oo
Exactly! Now even ChannelFireball is jumping on the 4x Chandra, Fire Artisan train: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/3-decks-that-beat-nexus-reclamation/