One could definitely go with a creature package in games 2+3, as the US nationals UB deck did. It may be greedy, but what about running 4 siphoners + 2 stealers? I think the argument made based on the essence scatter is very valid, as it is a card that UB decks typically keep after sb in the control mirror.
The transformative sideboard certainly could be an option. However, I think the mix would need to be Aetherborn and Stealers, rather than Siphoners. Reason being is that the Nationals list had the Aetherborn as option for the aggro matches too. By bringing in 5 creatures for the control match, you still need answers for aggro (2-3 Aetherborn, Contempt 4, depending on your list, maybe Essence Extraction), midrange (3-4 Duress, Vizier), and control (Negate, etc). The remaining 10 slots fill up pretty quick..
On another note, the consistency issues I continue to have with UB control just make the deck untenable for me. Even UB midrange is better with regards to consistency. I'm going to continue figuring out a UWb style deck.
So it seems like the hype for this deck has slowed down a bit since Worlds but I'm still trying to jam it. Right now I'm on a more traditional list with 3 Search for Azcantas and while I haven't got to try it yet I do have a question about Search itself. Say you have Search in hand on turn two, Censor or an Essence Scatter, and no removal and you're up against an Energy or Ramunap deck (most of my meta). Do you just play Search and hope to hit a Push or Extraction on your turn or do you hold up Censor? I find myself in this position rather frequently with only 2 Searches. I usually go with Censor but I'm legitimately not sure if it's the right choice. Sometimes it works out but not always. I'm just curious as to what your guys' opinion is.
The opinion of the players at Worlds was to hold it until T4 or 5... you can't afford to let something sneak by you and not have a ready answer. I've had that happen where I put a Search down T2 against an unknown deck (T1 Aether Hub, so suspected energy but not sure), they played a T2 Cub. I never found a Push, and the Cub went almost all the way.
So it seems like the hype for this deck has slowed down a bit since Worlds but I'm still trying to jam it. Right now I'm on a more traditional list with 3 Search for Azcantas and while I haven't got to try it yet I do have a question about Search itself. Say you have Search in hand on turn two, Censor or an Essence Scatter, and no removal and you're up against an Energy or Ramunap deck (most of my meta). Do you just play Search and hope to hit a Push or Extraction on your turn or do you hold up Censor? I find myself in this position rather frequently with only 2 Searches. I usually go with Censor but I'm legitimately not sure if it's the right choice. Sometimes it works out but not always. I'm just curious as to what your guys' opinion is.
Holding up the counter is most likely the correct choice. I try not to drop Search T2 unless I have nothing for that turn.
So it seems like the hype for this deck has slowed down a bit since Worlds but I'm still trying to jam it. Right now I'm on a more traditional list with 3 Search for Azcantas and while I haven't got to try it yet I do have a question about Search itself. Say you have Search in hand on turn two, Censor or an Essence Scatter, and no removal and you're up against an Energy or Ramunap deck (most of my meta). Do you just play Search and hope to hit a Push or Extraction on your turn or do you hold up Censor? I find myself in this position rather frequently with only 2 Searches. I usually go with Censor but I'm legitimately not sure if it's the right choice. Sometimes it works out but not always. I'm just curious as to what your guys' opinion is.
It honestly depends on your hand, and if you're on the draw or play. If you're screwed or flooded and on the play then it can be ok to just jam the turn 2 search, and hope you can draw the right answers and stabalize. On the draw against energy, and with a good mix of spells and lands, definitely hold up the counterspell for refiner / virtuoso. More often than not it's correct to hold up the countermagic, but the whole point of search is to filter your draw to make the deck more consistent, and sometimes that means jamming on turn 2 and hoping you can filter enough to deal with the threat that will undoubtedly land.
Well, I can't believe it's been nearly a month since people posted on this thread. Have things really been that bad? Answer - no. There were two UB control lists that made it to day 2 of the World Magic Cup (in fact, only 2 UB Control lists in the entire tournament!), and one of them made it in to the Top 4!
As for me, I've taken to running the list without any Scarab Gods (shocking, I know!). Instead, I've been trying Metallurgic Summonings, and so far the results have been promising. I stumbled across a list that was named UB Xerox - it ran 4 Opt, 4 Hieroglyphic Illumination, 3 Censor, 3 Search for Azcanta, and 2 Chart a Course in order to turbo through the deck, find the win cons, and stabilise quicker. All the card draw means it runs only 22 land. However, I wanted to be a little more secure, and tweaked the numbers a little to go back up to 25 land. With the reduced land count, having spare mana to activate Scarab God didn't often happen, hence the Summonings. I'm still playing with card numbers, but last week's FNM I hit Temur Energy down for 2-0 easily. It could be a fluke, but it could also be promising. It's a little weak to aggro, so I'm trying Dynavolt Tower in the board, similar to the list from pre-AER that was run to some success. We'll see what happens tonight!
You say it's not that bad but I'm finding Grixis and Esper control to just be better decks than straight UB. UB has too many holes to fill and generally isn't consistent enough somehow. Often times, I spent more time spinning my wheels (just cycling through cards or spending time drawing cards) than actually controlling the board or the stack. It was a long, painful and not very fruitful search for some level of consistency. I'm glad two UB decks made it deep into the World Cup (I haven't kept up with that) and all that, but the fact that we're not seeing it anywhere else lends that success more to the players than the deck imo.
I've had massive life things going on, but I'm not an active poster really anyway, more of a lurker. What's you Esper list looking like Chaos? I'm still on Esper, but haven't looked at standard in a month and a half at least
I hate to admit, but Esper Approach is where I landed for those colors. I'm also not a huge fan of Scarab God right now for control lists. Other than that, my list is pretty much stock now. Grixis control is far more interesting to me. I have a version with a Shaheen Soorani type sideboard and another that gets more aggressive with Glorybringer and Whirler Viruoso in the sideboard. Apparently, Locust God in the main deck was a surprise to many opponents. It just seems good to me with Whirler Virtuoso and Hazoret running rampant.
I'm on Metallurgic Summonings lately, as it's a win con you can find with Azcanta. Losing to flooding more than anything else. Experimenting with cycling Deserts, but I think I want 1 or 2 more draw spells. Can't give up The Scarab God though, it's so ridiculously OP smh.
I ran Esper Approach for a few weeks, but it didn't feel as good as UB Scarab God, so now I'm playing Esper Scarab God and it handles really well. Vona has proven surprisingly useful. I miss having land slots for more utility lands like Field of Ruin and Scavenger Grounds
Hi! quick question guys, I have seen some lists of UB running liliana death's majesty and I was wondering for what matchup?? I mean, doesnt look super impressive vs temur or even control?? havent tested it, but any thoughts you have I would really appreciate them, thanks!
I played around with an Esper Hailfire build at GP New Jersey last weekend (ten or so one-off matches between rounds of other events) and was rather happy with it. I didn't come up against any Temur decks but it handled excellently against other control and midrange builds--nothing like Torment of Hailfire on X=12 to ruin someone's day. Went 1-1 in my two matches against Ramunap Red--the win thanks to early Fatal Push, Battle at the Bridge, and a perfectly timed Vona, Butcher of Magan. I suspect I need more life gain in the sideboard to consistently survive that matchup.
It's a work in progress (notably the manabase, which is short a few rare lands) but overall I feel it performs pretty consistently. It can take a while to work up to a winning position, particularly if you're like me and bury all your Gearhulks with Azcanta activations, but it's usually resilient enough to get there. The combination of Treasure Map and Search provides a great ramp into the late game and sidesteps the downsides of running too many copies of Search. It's also great Abrade bait to protect the Gearhulks.
Sideboard remains under construction; so far it's mostly been the typical Negate, Duress, Aetherborn, and so on. Never gotten to use it yet but I've been including a Spell Swindle as a nasty surprise for Approach decks. I also tried out Consign // Oblivion for a while as a Gearhulk target but not sure it's worth a slot.
Also @Takabrawn Liliana, Death's Majesty is a turn the corner card for this type of build where you are basically trading blow for blow with your opponent and allows you to turn the corner and rebuild your board while basically invalidating their removal. Plays a similar role as The Scarab God.
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Current Decks Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BWGUB Sultai Constrictor BUG Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG Modern : GB Golgari Elves BGGR Atarka Goblins RG Pauper : W Heroic WGB Delve BG
So, I saw this online a couple of days ago, and gatheringmagic.com ran it as their deck of the day today. It has a few more creatures than a "normal" list, and a few less than the post above. It's certainly an interesting idea, using cards like Aetherborn and Hostage Taker to deal with creatures rather than not letting them resolve. May give it a run out for the last week with a couple of minor changes (I only have one Lili, for example).
Well, as I said, I took a variant of my list above to FNM, and ended 3-1. Lost to Sultai energy, but beat Ramunap Red and another Sultai energy deck (plus a UR control). I ran two Supreme Will where the list posted had Consign//Oblivion, just to have more counters and card draw options, and a third Disallow over the second Lili (as mentioned, I only own one Lili). Sideboard was tweaked a bit too for the local meta.
Changes I'd make to it are adding the second Lili, and probably shifting one Contempt to the board, and adding a couple of Essence Scatter back in the board. Otherwise, a solid list, and it'll go back out for the last FNM next week.
I'm looking forward to the two Elder Dinos, and Twilight Prophet, with some curiosity towards Chupacabra and Disperse in the Wind...
Went 3-1 again with the same list last weekend. Here's my updates for post-RIX. Would be interested to hear opinions as to if/how to fit in Chupacabra...
here is an esper idea for the new set after bans. I've not played any leagues yet, but my games in the tournament practice room of MTGO have been pretty good. Ther idea is simple: 1) leave all your expensive (and narrow) win conditions in the sideboard and grab them with mastermind's acquisition when you are ready to win the game, 2) levy the power of Azor's Gateway to get the mana necessary to play acquisition + your win con in one turn, while leaving counter mana up. Here is the list (the mana base was copied from another esper deck, might need some tweaks for these cards, but i'm too lazy to do it. Plus i've not been having trouble with it so far):
The consign is technically 7 mana (relevant when counting mana costs with azor's gateway).
You might want to go to 3 gateway, or even 4. Drawing mutiples is not as bad (even if it is legendary) because you cn exile the second with the first.
Elenda is a great reanimation target vs any deck that can't exile it. I've been impressed (also, suiciding liliana's tokens grow elenda. When i first read the card i thought is was "non-tken creture" but it's just "creature".)
sometimes you need one more mana cost to flip the gateway, and you don't have it in hand. Don't be afraid to acquisition for the relevant card, once you flip the gateway its almost gg.
Really love your list and i am thinking to try it out too.
Just 2 questions: Why do you Play Dire Fleet poisoner over glint-sleeve siphoner?
And maybe the cabra over Hostage taker?
I haven't tried it yet, but the thinking was to have more instant speed answers. Opponents are not likely to attack in to a Gifted Aetherborn/Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, but they will likely go to an open board with two open mana. Flash in Poisoner which then basically reads "1B, instant, destroy target attacking creature without flying".
Cabra for Taker is change that I'm thinking about. Taker's fun to steal their stuff and use it against them, but with the Gods, I'll be doing that anyway after the Doge kills their stuff first...
What about playing the normal control game, keep the board clear, then nuke them with Sanctum of the Sun + Torment of Hailfire? I'll be giving it a try
Draw_Gone, how does your deck do against aggressive decks? I just feel that it is light on removal
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On another note, the consistency issues I continue to have with UB control just make the deck untenable for me. Even UB midrange is better with regards to consistency. I'm going to continue figuring out a UWb style deck.
Holding up the counter is most likely the correct choice. I try not to drop Search T2 unless I have nothing for that turn.
It honestly depends on your hand, and if you're on the draw or play. If you're screwed or flooded and on the play then it can be ok to just jam the turn 2 search, and hope you can draw the right answers and stabalize. On the draw against energy, and with a good mix of spells and lands, definitely hold up the counterspell for refiner / virtuoso. More often than not it's correct to hold up the countermagic, but the whole point of search is to filter your draw to make the deck more consistent, and sometimes that means jamming on turn 2 and hoping you can filter enough to deal with the threat that will undoubtedly land.
3 Torrential Gearhulk
2 The Scarab God
Spells (29)
4 Essence Scatter
4 Censor
1 Consign // Oblivion
2 Essence Extraction
4 Fatal Push
4 Disallow
2 Glimmer of Genius
2 Hieroglyphic Illumination
4 Vraska's Contempt
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Fetid Pools
4 Drowned Catacomb
6 Island
7 Swamp
2 Field of Ruin
3 Evolving Wilds
2 Essence Extraction
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
2 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Jace's Defeat
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
3 Deadeye Tracker
3 Duress
As for me, I've taken to running the list without any Scarab Gods (shocking, I know!). Instead, I've been trying Metallurgic Summonings, and so far the results have been promising. I stumbled across a list that was named UB Xerox - it ran 4 Opt, 4 Hieroglyphic Illumination, 3 Censor, 3 Search for Azcanta, and 2 Chart a Course in order to turbo through the deck, find the win cons, and stabilise quicker. All the card draw means it runs only 22 land. However, I wanted to be a little more secure, and tweaked the numbers a little to go back up to 25 land. With the reduced land count, having spare mana to activate Scarab God didn't often happen, hence the Summonings. I'm still playing with card numbers, but last week's FNM I hit Temur Energy down for 2-0 easily. It could be a fluke, but it could also be promising. It's a little weak to aggro, so I'm trying Dynavolt Tower in the board, similar to the list from pre-AER that was run to some success. We'll see what happens tonight!
4x Aether Hub
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Glacial Fortress
3x Fetid Pools
3x Irrigated Farmland
1x Island
2x Swamp
1x Plains
Instants
4x Disallow
3x Essence Scatter
3x Fatal Push
3x Settle the Wreckage
2x Essence Extraction
2x Supreme Will
1x Pull from Tomorrow
1x Hieroglyphic Illumination
4x Glimmer of Genius
2x Search for Azcanta
2x Cast Out
Sorceries
2x Fumigate
Creatures
3x Torrential Gearhulk
1x The Scarab God
1x Vona, Butcher of Magan
1x Arguel's Blood Fast
1x Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1x Jace's Defeat
3x Duress
2x Negate
1x Cast Out
1x Battle at the Bridge
3x Gifted Aetherborn
1x Fumigatge
1x Essence Extraction
It's a work in progress (notably the manabase, which is short a few rare lands) but overall I feel it performs pretty consistently. It can take a while to work up to a winning position, particularly if you're like me and bury all your Gearhulks with Azcanta activations, but it's usually resilient enough to get there. The combination of Treasure Map and Search provides a great ramp into the late game and sidesteps the downsides of running too many copies of Search. It's also great Abrade bait to protect the Gearhulks.
Sideboard remains under construction; so far it's mostly been the typical Negate, Duress, Aetherborn, and so on. Never gotten to use it yet but I've been including a Spell Swindle as a nasty surprise for Approach decks. I also tried out Consign // Oblivion for a while as a Gearhulk target but not sure it's worth a slot.
4 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Vona, Butcher of Magan
Spells (25)
3 Fatal Push
3 Censor
2 Essence Scatter
3 Disallow
3 Supreme Will
2 Cast Out
2 Glimmer of Genius
2 Hieroglyphic Illumination
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Vraska's Contempt
2 Fumigate
1 Torment of Hailfire
2 Search for Azcanta
Artifacts (2)
2 Treasure Map
Lands (26)
4 Aether Hub
2 Concealed Courtyard
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Fetid Pools
1 Field of Ruin
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Irrigated Farmland
1 Plains
1 Island
3 Swamp
4x Aether Hub
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Fetid Pools
2x Field of Ruin
5x Island
6x Swamp
Sorcery (7)
4x Chart a Course
3x Duress
Creature (15)
4x Gifted Aetherborn
4x Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
3x Gonti, Lord of Luxury
2x Hostage Taker
2x The Scarab God
2x Consign / Oblivion
4x Fatal Push
2x Supreme Will
3x Vraska's Contempt
Planeswalker (2)
2x Liliana, Death's Majesty
2x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Demon of Dark Schemes
3x Essence Extraction
3x Harsh Scrutiny
3x Negate
2x Vizier of Many Faces
Also @Takabrawn Liliana, Death's Majesty is a turn the corner card for this type of build where you are basically trading blow for blow with your opponent and allows you to turn the corner and rebuild your board while basically invalidating their removal. Plays a similar role as The Scarab God.
Current Decks
Standard : WB Orzhov Vampires BW GUB Sultai Constrictor BUG
Brawl : GB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons BG
Modern : GB Golgari Elves BG GR Atarka Goblins RG
Pauper : W Heroic W GB Delve BG
3 Hostage Taker
3 The Scarab God
3 Torrential Gearhulk
4 Gifted Aetherborn
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Liliana, Death's Majesty
Instants (18)
2 Consign // Oblivion
2 Disallow
2 Negate
4 Fatal Push
4 Glimmer of Genius
4 Vraska's Contempt
2 Treasure Map
Lands (25)
5 Island
6 Swamp
2 Field of Ruin
4 Aether Hub
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
1 Demon of Dark Schemes
2 Disallow
2 Duress
4 Essence Extraction
3 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1 Jace's Defeat
2 Kitesail Freebooter
Changes I'd make to it are adding the second Lili, and probably shifting one Contempt to the board, and adding a couple of Essence Scatter back in the board. Otherwise, a solid list, and it'll go back out for the last FNM next week.
I'm looking forward to the two Elder Dinos, and Twilight Prophet, with some curiosity towards Chupacabra and Disperse in the Wind...
4 Dire Fleet Poisoner
3 Hostage Taker
2 The Scarab God
3 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Tetzimoc, Primal Death
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Liliana, Death's Majesty
Spells (18)
4 Fatal Push
2 Negate
3 Disallow
2 Supreme Will
4 Glimmer of Genius
3 Vraska's Contempt
2 Search for Azcanta
Lands (25)
4 Aether Hub
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
2 Field of Ruin
5 Island
6 Swamp
3 Duress
2 Essence Scatter
2 Gifted Aetherborn
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
3 Essence Extraction
2 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1 Vraska's Contempt
1 Nezahal, Primal Tide
here is an esper idea for the new set after bans. I've not played any leagues yet, but my games in the tournament practice room of MTGO have been pretty good. Ther idea is simple: 1) leave all your expensive (and narrow) win conditions in the sideboard and grab them with mastermind's acquisition when you are ready to win the game, 2) levy the power of Azor's Gateway to get the mana necessary to play acquisition + your win con in one turn, while leaving counter mana up. Here is the list (the mana base was copied from another esper deck, might need some tweaks for these cards, but i'm too lazy to do it. Plus i've not been having trouble with it so far):
2 aether hub
3 concealed courtyard
4 drowned catacomb
4 fetid pools
2 field of ruin
4 glacial fortress
3 irrigated farmland
1 island
2 plains
1 swamp
Draw Spells (14)
1 search for azcanta
2 azor's gateway
3 secrets of the golden city
3 glimmer of genius
2 Mastermind's acquisition
2 torrential gearhulk
1 pull from tomorrow
2 fatal push
2 baffling end
1 negate
4 censor
4 disallow
1 vona's hunger
2 settle the wreckage
2 fumigate
1 liliana, death's majesty
1 consign
1 silent gravestone
3 negate
3 moment of craving
1 forsake the worldly
1 cast out
2 vraska's contempt
1 elenda, the dusk rose
1 Azor, the lawbringer
1 approach of the second sun
1 Nezahal, primal tide
Some tips and questions:
Cabra for Taker is change that I'm thinking about. Taker's fun to steal their stuff and use it against them, but with the Gods, I'll be doing that anyway after the Doge kills their stuff first...
Draw_Gone, how does your deck do against aggressive decks? I just feel that it is light on removal