@NTSC, Do you still have problems getting lands on time with your build?
Very few land problems now that I'm not running Lyra. A mulligan for lands every once in a while, but that's it. I have flooded once or twice. I have been tempted to run a 3rd Search For Azcanta, but I don't thuink that's the move right now.
Also, won a PPTQ Saturday. It was 5 rounds top 4 (16 people), and I squeaked in at 4th at 3-2, then avenged both losses (flood one match, deck check when I happened to accidentally presented an illegal deck due to rushing to deboard in the other smh) for the win.
What do you guys think is the best way to deal with mono black zombies? I know it's going to be a thing at my local FNM, so I need some graveyard hate.
Is the best thing just to find room for two scavenger grounds?
My deck has tons of spot removal and I run 2 Settle main and 1 fumigate side, but having some graveyard hate will be crucial.
I'm only running one Field of Ruin, but I've actually never really had a use for it, so I'm thinking Scavenger ground will be better.
What do you guys think is the best way to deal with mono black zombies? I know it's going to be a thing at my local FNM, so I need some graveyard hate.
Is the best thing just to find room for two scavenger grounds?
My deck has tons of spot removal and I run 2 Settle main and 1 fumigate side, but having some graveyard hate will be crucial.
I'm only running one Field of Ruin, but I've actually never really had a use for it, so I'm thinking Scavenger ground will be better.
What do you guys think is the best way to deal with mono black zombies? I know it's going to be a thing at my local FNM, so I need some graveyard hate.
Is the best thing just to find room for two scavenger grounds?
My deck has tons of spot removal and I run 2 Settle main and 1 fumigate side, but having some graveyard hate will be crucial.
I'm only running one Field of Ruin, but I've actually never really had a use for it, so I'm thinking Scavenger ground will be better.
As always, Vraska's Contempt will be key. I am going back to Fumigate in the SB due to the Knight matchup. Settle can work, but it they are smart and play around it, you may lose anyway. Also, The Scarab God should wreck them, you just need to untap with it. I think smart board management and sequencing will be most important.
Is anyone looking at Tez? Seems decent to me. I mean obviously Teferi is better...
I tried 1 at FNM. Only played it twice. It was good, but I think I have to reconfigure the deck overall, as just sticking him in there was an error. I think the card has a bright future, though. One game, I got Teferi to 8 with Tez at 8 and 3 Thopters. My opponent unfortunately scooped before I got the chance to remove all of his permanents lol. If Teferi didn't exist, he'd be the control king.
I also tried Chromium, btw. I like it, but I think it's overrated. Too easy to work around. Unless you have a control heavy metagame, I think he sits out until rotation. We have to worry about the various aggro decks, Knights and Grixis.
Agreed on everything. I was really disappointed with Chromium in particular. I was expecting to close out games faster, and it just wasn't happening like I thought it would. It fills the same slot that Nezahal, Primal Tide and similar cards would fill. The new Tezzeret, however, I liked a lot as a supplement to Teferi. I didn't really feel that the deck needed to be changed unless you just wanted to focus on more of it's synergies. It fills a hole I find that I have with Teferi as far as having or maintaining a board presence with a card that isn't hit by creature removal.
Agreed on everything. I was really disappointed with Chromium in particular. I was expecting to close out games faster, and it just wasn't happening like I thought it would. It fills the same slot that Nezahal, Primal Tide and similar cards would fill. The new Tezzeret, however, I liked a lot as a supplement to Teferi. I didn't really feel that the deck needed to be changed unless you just wanted to focus on more of it's synergies. It fills a hole I find that I have with Teferi as far as having or maintaining a board presence with a card that isn't hit by creature removal.
buddy of mine has replaced 1 of his 4 Teferi in UW with Tezz and has liked it a lot. Protects itself with evasive threats and draws cards and doesnt clog his hand in multiples
I you wanna get funky, sideboard insidious will. I did it for fun and acutally got someone with it! Not sure that the number of banefires is up there to justify IW in a competitive setting like a GP, but the lulz when you do get them are real. But, in reality, your best hope is commit (perhaps with a shuffle effect like field of ruin) and kill them before they kill you.
I you wanna get funky, sideboard insidious will. I did it for fun and acutally got someone with it! Not sure that the number of banefires is up there to justify IW in a competitive setting like a GP, but the lulz when you do get them are real. But, in reality, your best hope is commit (perhaps with a shuffle effect like field of ruin) and kill them before they kill you.
I've been looking at Insidious Will, Sanguine Sacrament (crazy, I know), Lost Legacy and Fountain Of Renewal. I don't trust Commit/shuffle, I don't like a two card combo, especially one that they can just luck up out of. As wild as it sounds, I think my next test will be Sacrament. It's instant, a good mana sink, can be found with Azcanta, and can be used multiple times. Also, it's playable against all of the aggro decks. I'm trying Lost Legacy now, but against aggro, it doesn't actually DO anything, and is a terrible topdeck mid-late game.
Banefire is absolutely filthy. I am testing a grixis build and I draw it almost every game as a 1 of. Get them down to 7-10 and banefire ftw.
I'm seeing more and more Banefire every week. People are tired of losing to me and the one or two other controls players Settling them out of the tournament. Even R/B aggro is playing it now, not just midrange.
I have been looking as UG(x) since I first learned of the deck. The core theory of that deck does not need much do to the absurd strength of recursive fog effects in a creature based meta. Green is actually very important to the list because of that strength in fog, and for the of ramp you put in. Removing green to run esper is not unthinkable, however, by cutting fog you are losing a significant point of strength in the core deck theory -- the ability to be completely ignorant of board based decks. While I think this is manageable, it does change how the deck runs fundamentally, and changes your clock significantly.
Currently UG(w) is the strongest overall option thanks to Teferi acting as control and draw, with draw being the most relevant distinguishment from planeswalkers in other colors.
UG(b) Is doable, and may be used as an Anti-Nexus, Nexus deck.
I anticipate that WUB-Nexus would trade Fogs for different pieces of board clear, and try to lean on artifact sources of mana for the ramp, most likely Tezzeret. The biggest concern here is how you intend to pinch deck space in order to fit all the the effects you need. In a Vacuum, each extra turn from Nexus is more valuable because of the greater density of planewalkers in the deck. However, the original deck is already quite capable of going off pretty quickly for a deck of this type, and the ultimate question is... is it worth slowing that down for MORE control. If the meta begins to skew towards Nexus (or other control decks) then being able to disable an enemy Nexus or protect your own with heavy countermagic will be very relevant.
After this pass on my UG(x) Primer I will add a WUB list to the variants.
I'm thinking something along the lines of the PT lists, but with 4 Nexus of Fate instead of the Gearhulks. Frank Lepore also ran a main board Chromium as a win con in a couple of test matches, and that seemed to be interesting. As and when I can get my hands on a fourth Teferi, I'll probably switch that out for the Cast Down or one of the Syncopates, or meta depending, one of the Essence Scatters.
If you already have 3 Teferi, I would try to get 2x Karn first. His additional draw and win con is very strong. You also want multiple Planeswalkers if you are going to be using Nexus.
If you already have 3 Teferi, I would try to get 2x Karn first. His additional draw and win con is very strong. You also want multiple Planeswalkers if you are going to be using Nexus.
I beg to differ. The deck list is based on the ones run by Frank Lepore, Ali Aintrazi, and Seth ("Proooo-bably better known as Saffron Olive"). None of them felt the need for Karn, or any other planeswalker. The idea with this list (as opposed to the Bant Nexus lists) is to get your card advantage through Azcanta, rather than Karn. With a flipped Azcanta, you can activate main, untap with Teferi, activate again end step.
The one major update that Aintrazi makes to the list is to not run Chromium main, and reintroduce Gearhulks. A Gearhulk can block a Vine Mare, whereas Chromium can't. Here's his latest...
While I can't claim to have a lot of experience running esper control in the current meta, I do have a lot of experience with Nexus of Fate, including multiple different variants. Nexus of Fate just runs smoother with more planewalkers. Teferi is probably best one available because of how he can ramp your mana for EoT instants, and he doubles as control. Karn is solid card advantage/deck thinning and a win con.
The real question is if you BOTHER with Nexus of Fate in Esper control, especially if you aren't going to be taking advantage of Planeswalkers. Lost Legacy (or its inevitable replacement) plus existing counterspells can already do well as anti-nexus tech. While I think standard is eventually going to hit a point where Nexus is a go-to card for any competitive blue deck (ala-Bogarden Hellkite), I don't think we're there yet. Also, it is going to be less effective in any deck that's not abusing it, hence why I think you want more Planeswalkers if you are going to run Nexus.
Just considering the example you've given, current Nexus lists don't care that much about Vinemare. They just ignore it with fog and build to infinite turns.
The idea of keeping to Gearhulk in Control makes sense. But, what are you trying to use nexus for? Card Draw and Land drops? Faster Closing? I'm not trying to be cynical. I am looking for the motivation for running the card. I also should point out that Nexus decks can have a serious problem if something happens to the few actual win-cons they have. I think there is merit to running Gearhulk along with some number of Karn. but I wouldn't cut Karn for Gearhulk exclusively.
Just as an example, Bant is using nexus to Ramp, draw more cards, bulk up planeswalkers and build to a point where they are taking all the turns. But Esper Control is not necessarily running on the same philosophy. Off-hand, the best use case I am seeing for Nexus in Esper Control is EoT Gearhulk for removal and then swinging for consecutive turns. That's not bad play, but it is also very narrow play based on being ahead or having an opening.
More importantly, if you are trying to chain nexus to get more than 2 consecutive turns, you might need to reevaluate the function of the rest of the deck... not slap in 4 Nexus just because. Its a good card, but it IS expensive to cast. Those card slots might be better served elsewhere if it is going to be a dead card in hand when you need control.
While I can't claim to have a lot of experience running esper control in the current meta, I do have a lot of experience with Nexus of Fate, including multiple different variants. Nexus of Fate just runs smoother with more planewalkers. Teferi is probably best one available because of how he can ramp your mana for EoT instants, and he doubles as control. Karn is solid card advantage/deck thinning and a win con.
The real question is if you BOTHER with Nexus of Fate in Esper control, especially if you aren't going to be taking advantage of Planeswalkers. Lost Legacy (or its inevitable replacement) plus existing counterspells can already do well as anti-nexus tech. While I think standard is eventually going to hit a point where Nexus is a go-to card for any competitive blue deck (ala-Bogarden Hellkite), I don't think we're there yet. Also, it is going to be less effective in any deck that's not abusing it, hence why I think you want more Planeswalkers if you are going to run Nexus.
Just considering the example you've given, current Nexus lists don't care that much about Vinemare. They just ignore it with fog and build to infinite turns.
The idea of keeping to Gearhulk in Control makes sense. But, what are you trying to use nexus for? Card Draw and Land drops? Faster Closing? I'm not trying to be cynical. I am looking for the motivation for running the card. I also should point out that Nexus decks can have a serious problem if something happens to the few actual win-cons they have. I think there is merit to running Gearhulk along with some number of Karn. but I wouldn't cut Karn for Gearhulk exclusively.
Just as an example, Bant is using nexus to Ramp, draw more cards, bulk up planeswalkers and build to a point where they are taking all the turns. But Esper Control is not necessarily running on the same philosophy. Off-hand, the best use case I am seeing for Nexus in Esper Control is EoT Gearhulk for removal and then swinging for consecutive turns. That's not bad play, but it is also very narrow play based on being ahead or having an opening.
More importantly, if you are trying to chain nexus to get more than 2 consecutive turns, you might need to reevaluate the function of the rest of the deck... not slap in 4 Nexus just because. Its a good card, but it IS expensive to cast. Those card slots might be better served elsewhere if it is going to be a dead card in hand when you need control.
Agreed. We should be preying on Nexus decks as opposed to doing a bad impersonation of them.
Agreed. We should be preying on Nexus decks as opposed to doing a bad impersonation of them.
Make no mistake. I am a firm believer in the power of Nexus of Fate. I also think that there is a place for nexus in an esper shell to be extremely competitive. But we need to rebuild the deck from the ground up to bring in such an influential card... not just throw throw in 4 copies and see what happens.
The best current version of Esper Control is shaped by a largely midrange field of decks to face off against. As (or if) the meta polarizes more towards Fast Aggro versus Nexus, Esper Control will likely need to be rebuilt on a functional level. It is at that point I feel it only makes sense that a Nexus based version will emerge, and I have a already developed a range of variants in a separate primer based on Nexus proper.
For now I think Control is in a good place, as is. I am just also looking to the future.
Hey guys! Any Esper players here? Esper Control is one of my favorite decks/archetypes and I'm happy to see it performing in Standard. I just put together Wafo Tapa's list from GP Brussels on MTGO and am seeking helpful input and discussion as I don't know anyone IRL that plays MTG.
I'm playing on MTGO and the meta adapts pretty quickly so I was wondering if I'm missing anything or there is something I should be more prepared for.
It seems like there is quite a lot of wiggle room in Esper Control lists but some of the choices I'm not sure about, like Censor and Syncopate, but I suppose Syncopate is necessary for Nexus. I definitely trust Wafo Tapa's preparation for the event so I went with his list.
Also what is Reckoning there to hit? I'm not super familiar with Standard.
Also there are a ton of quitters/ragers in the MTGO Tournament Practice room so if anyone wants to jam some games in playtesting I'm all for it.
MTGO IGN: Zero7206
Not sure if anyone is active but this is what I've decided on for the time being. Maybe it just suits my playstyle better, or maybe it's better for MTGO.
I felt super weak to Vine Mare and Carnage Tyrant, so The Eldest Reborn, Settle the Wreckage, Vizier of Many Faces, Yahenni's (for Vine Mare), and Detection Tower all help answer them. Tower is an easy swap for Field of Ruin.
The other bad matchup was Mono Red and R/B Aggro, so cutting all of the cycles from Wafo Tapa's list for a couple of Cast Down and a few more cards in the board help just dying to the redundant Goblin Pikers.
Not sure if anyone is active but this is what I've decided on for the time being. Maybe it just suits my playstyle better, or maybe it's better for MTGO.
I felt super weak to Vine Mare and Carnage Tyrant, so The Eldest Reborn, Settle the Wreckage, Vizier of Many Faces, Yahenni's (for Vine Mare), and Detection Tower all help answer them. Tower is an easy swap for Field of Ruin.
The other bad matchup was Mono Red and R/B Aggro, so cutting all of the cycles from Wafo Tapa's list for a couple of Cast Down and a few more cards in the board help just dying to the redundant Goblin Pikers.
Been trying all of these. So far, I would say the Detection Tower should be a Vizier. WAY better vs. the green decks. Also helps vs. Chromium and control in general, where they can blow Tower up. It was very unimpressive to me.
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Very few land problems now that I'm not running Lyra. A mulligan for lands every once in a while, but that's it. I have flooded once or twice. I have been tempted to run a 3rd Search For Azcanta, but I don't thuink that's the move right now.
Also, won a PPTQ Saturday. It was 5 rounds top 4 (16 people), and I squeaked in at 4th at 3-2, then avenged both losses (flood one match, deck check when I happened to accidentally presented an illegal deck due to rushing to deboard in the other smh) for the win.
As far as 2019, I'm looking at Chromium, the Mutable, Millstone, and Patient Rebuilding. I can see myself playing Tezzeret, Artifice Master somewhere down the line, also.
Is the best thing just to find room for two scavenger grounds?
My deck has tons of spot removal and I run 2 Settle main and 1 fumigate side, but having some graveyard hate will be crucial.
I'm only running one Field of Ruin, but I've actually never really had a use for it, so I'm thinking Scavenger ground will be better.
As always, Vraska's Contempt will be key. I am going back to Fumigate in the SB due to the Knight matchup. Settle can work, but it they are smart and play around it, you may lose anyway. Also, The Scarab God should wreck them, you just need to untap with it. I think smart board management and sequencing will be most important.
I tried 1 at FNM. Only played it twice. It was good, but I think I have to reconfigure the deck overall, as just sticking him in there was an error. I think the card has a bright future, though. One game, I got Teferi to 8 with Tez at 8 and 3 Thopters. My opponent unfortunately scooped before I got the chance to remove all of his permanents lol. If Teferi didn't exist, he'd be the control king.
I also tried Chromium, btw. I like it, but I think it's overrated. Too easy to work around. Unless you have a control heavy metagame, I think he sits out until rotation. We have to worry about the various aggro decks, Knights and Grixis.
Wait until rotation to see where Red is?
I've been looking at Insidious Will, Sanguine Sacrament (crazy, I know), Lost Legacy and Fountain Of Renewal. I don't trust Commit/shuffle, I don't like a two card combo, especially one that they can just luck up out of. As wild as it sounds, I think my next test will be Sacrament. It's instant, a good mana sink, can be found with Azcanta, and can be used multiple times. Also, it's playable against all of the aggro decks. I'm trying Lost Legacy now, but against aggro, it doesn't actually DO anything, and is a terrible topdeck mid-late game.
Not an option, I'm not switching archetypes.
I'm seeing more and more Banefire every week. People are tired of losing to me and the one or two other controls players Settling them out of the tournament. Even R/B aggro is playing it now, not just midrange.
Currently UG(w) is the strongest overall option thanks to Teferi acting as control and draw, with draw being the most relevant distinguishment from planeswalkers in other colors.
UG(b) Is doable, and may be used as an Anti-Nexus, Nexus deck.
I anticipate that WUB-Nexus would trade Fogs for different pieces of board clear, and try to lean on artifact sources of mana for the ramp, most likely Tezzeret. The biggest concern here is how you intend to pinch deck space in order to fit all the the effects you need. In a Vacuum, each extra turn from Nexus is more valuable because of the greater density of planewalkers in the deck. However, the original deck is already quite capable of going off pretty quickly for a deck of this type, and the ultimate question is... is it worth slowing that down for MORE control. If the meta begins to skew towards Nexus (or other control decks) then being able to disable an enemy Nexus or protect your own with heavy countermagic will be very relevant.
After this pass on my UG(x) Primer I will add a WUB list to the variants.
1 Chromium, the Mutable
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Spells (24)
4 Fatal Push
2 Syncopate
1 Cast Down
3 Essence Scatter
4 Disallow
1 Forsake the Worldly
4 Glimmer of Genius
4 Vraska's Contempt
4 Nexus of Fate
2 Search for Azcanta
Lands (27)
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
1 Field of Ruin
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Irrigated Farmland
4 Island
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Swamp
The one major update that Aintrazi makes to the list is to not run Chromium main, and reintroduce Gearhulks. A Gearhulk can block a Vine Mare, whereas Chromium can't. Here's his latest...
2 Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Instants (22)
1 Commit // Memory
1 Disallow
2 Essence Scatter
2 Settle the Wreckage
4 Fatal Push
4 Glimmer of Genius
4 Nexus of Fate
4 Vraska's Contempt
Sorceries (1)
1 Fumigate
1 Seal Away
2 Search for Azcanta
Lands (28)
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Aether Hub
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Irrigated Farmland
4 Isolated Chapel
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
2 Chromium, the Mutable
1 Cast Out
4 Negate
1 Profane Procession
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Essence Extraction
1 Sanguine Sacrament
1 Fumigate
The real question is if you BOTHER with Nexus of Fate in Esper control, especially if you aren't going to be taking advantage of Planeswalkers. Lost Legacy (or its inevitable replacement) plus existing counterspells can already do well as anti-nexus tech. While I think standard is eventually going to hit a point where Nexus is a go-to card for any competitive blue deck (ala-Bogarden Hellkite), I don't think we're there yet. Also, it is going to be less effective in any deck that's not abusing it, hence why I think you want more Planeswalkers if you are going to run Nexus.
Just considering the example you've given, current Nexus lists don't care that much about Vinemare. They just ignore it with fog and build to infinite turns.
The idea of keeping to Gearhulk in Control makes sense. But, what are you trying to use nexus for? Card Draw and Land drops? Faster Closing? I'm not trying to be cynical. I am looking for the motivation for running the card. I also should point out that Nexus decks can have a serious problem if something happens to the few actual win-cons they have. I think there is merit to running Gearhulk along with some number of Karn. but I wouldn't cut Karn for Gearhulk exclusively.
Just as an example, Bant is using nexus to Ramp, draw more cards, bulk up planeswalkers and build to a point where they are taking all the turns. But Esper Control is not necessarily running on the same philosophy. Off-hand, the best use case I am seeing for Nexus in Esper Control is EoT Gearhulk for removal and then swinging for consecutive turns. That's not bad play, but it is also very narrow play based on being ahead or having an opening.
More importantly, if you are trying to chain nexus to get more than 2 consecutive turns, you might need to reevaluate the function of the rest of the deck... not slap in 4 Nexus just because. Its a good card, but it IS expensive to cast. Those card slots might be better served elsewhere if it is going to be a dead card in hand when you need control.
Agreed. We should be preying on Nexus decks as opposed to doing a bad impersonation of them.
Make no mistake. I am a firm believer in the power of Nexus of Fate. I also think that there is a place for nexus in an esper shell to be extremely competitive. But we need to rebuild the deck from the ground up to bring in such an influential card... not just throw throw in 4 copies and see what happens.
The best current version of Esper Control is shaped by a largely midrange field of decks to face off against. As (or if) the meta polarizes more towards Fast Aggro versus Nexus, Esper Control will likely need to be rebuilt on a functional level. It is at that point I feel it only makes sense that a Nexus based version will emerge, and I have a already developed a range of variants in a separate primer based on Nexus proper.
For now I think Control is in a good place, as is. I am just also looking to the future.
I'm playing on MTGO and the meta adapts pretty quickly so I was wondering if I'm missing anything or there is something I should be more prepared for.
It seems like there is quite a lot of wiggle room in Esper Control lists but some of the choices I'm not sure about, like Censor and Syncopate, but I suppose Syncopate is necessary for Nexus. I definitely trust Wafo Tapa's preparation for the event so I went with his list.
Also what is Reckoning there to hit? I'm not super familiar with Standard.
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Instants (25)
1 Censor
4 Disallow
2 Essence Scatter
4 Fatal Push
4 Glimmer of Genius
2 Heiroglyphic Illumination
1 Negate
3 Syncopate
4 Vraska's Contempt
1 Search for Azcanta
Lands (27)
4 Island
4 Swamp
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Irrigated Farmland
4 Isolated Chapel
1 Field of Ruin
1 Cleansing Nova
1 Detection Tower
1 Duress
1 Essence Scatter
3 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
2 Infernal Reckoning
1 Jace's Defeat
2 Negate
1 The Eldest Reborn
1 The Scarab God
1 Walking Ballista
Also there are a ton of quitters/ragers in the MTGO Tournament Practice room so if anyone wants to jam some games in playtesting I'm all for it.
MTGO IGN: Zero7206
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Instants (25)
4 Glimmer of Genius
4 Vraska's Contempt
4 Disallow
1 Forsake the Worldly
3 Essence Scatter
1 Negate
2 Cast Down
4 Fatal Push
2 Syncopate
1 Search for Azcanta
Lands (27)
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Irrigated Farmland
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Island
4 Swamp
1 Field of Ruin
1 Chromium, the Mutable
1 Walking Ballista
1 The Eldest Reborn
2 Settle the Wreckage
1 Vizier of Many Faces
1 Yahenni's Expertise
2 Essence Extraction
1 Lost Legacy
1 Jace's Defeat
2 Negate
1 Duress
1 Detection Tower
I felt super weak to Vine Mare and Carnage Tyrant, so The Eldest Reborn, Settle the Wreckage, Vizier of Many Faces, Yahenni's (for Vine Mare), and Detection Tower all help answer them. Tower is an easy swap for Field of Ruin.
The other bad matchup was Mono Red and R/B Aggro, so cutting all of the cycles from Wafo Tapa's list for a couple of Cast Down and a few more cards in the board help just dying to the redundant Goblin Pikers.
Been trying all of these. So far, I would say the Detection Tower should be a Vizier. WAY better vs. the green decks. Also helps vs. Chromium and control in general, where they can blow Tower up. It was very unimpressive to me.