I'm going Esper, so far, I will have will have max 3 T1 black sources. I'll also have Settle The Wreckage to clean up bad board states. I am not going to be the guy who loses because his opponent won the die roll and had T1 Llanowar Elves, T2 Steel Leaf Champion or Jadelight Ranger, and hit twice. If I was UB, maybe, but I also don't like having to play several Evolving Wilds to keep my Fatal Pushes "on".
I can see that happening, no doubt. If I'm on the play in that situation, and am lucky enough to get a non-tap land down, I'd just Push the Elf and buy myself a turn. On the draw, I'd probably be in trouble, so I guess my two copies of Cast Down would have to do. Still don't think lifegain is necessary G1 besides my 4-of Vraska's Contempt, so Imma roll 4 Fatal Push and 2 Cast Down.
Sideboard depends on the meta obviously, but we get a huge choice of cards. I personally think something like Fungal Infection could be good against all the creature decks with x/1s in them and the surge of Llanowar Elves coming. Fumigate could also be SB instead of main to hedge against other control decks and crush game 2 against creature decks.
Fungal Infection looks reaaaaally good. I'm contemplating putting it in SB, but idk what to take out for it.
I generally agree, but if staying UB, I feel like there needs to be at least 1 "hard" sweeper in your 75. I refuse to lose to T6 (now maybe T4 or 5) Carnage Tyrant. Commit alone isn't enough of a safety net for me.
Why not Doomfall then? it has so much more versatility and gets rid of Carnage Tyrant with both its modes. I think it just accumulated a lot of "it's a horrible card" opinions, but I've never had it in my hand as a dead card I can't cast. Maybe once against GW tokens?
I can see that happening, no doubt. If I'm on the play in that situation, and am lucky enough to get a non-tap land down, I'd just Push the Elf and buy myself a turn. On the draw, I'd probably be in trouble, so I guess my two copies of Cast Down would have to do. Still don't think lifegain is necessary G1 besides my 4-of Vraska's Contempt, so Imma roll 4 Fatal Push and 2 Cast Down.
That's a large assumption. I also don't see how you survive red (or Goblins, especially with Siege-Gang Commander now) or Vehicles without a good amount of lifegain. Your margin of error will be razor thin.
Fungal Infection looks reaaaaally good. I'm contemplating putting it in SB, but idk what to take out for it.
Really good against what? You're making a guy to turn on their removal. What x/1 or x/2 is this good against where you wouldn't rather have Push, Cast Down, or Moment?
Why not Doomfall then? it has so much more versatility and gets rid of Carnage Tyrant with both its modes. I think it just accumulated a lot of "it's a horrible card" opinions, but I've never had it in my hand as a dead card I can't cast. Maybe once against GW tokens?
It gets rid of Carnage Tyrant...except when you didn't have time to kill the random Llanowar Elves lingering around, or whatever other weenie you ignored in favor of the real threats. I like the card in general, but that's the type of thing that can cost you a match. Better safe than sorry.
That's a large assumption. I also don't see how you survive red (or Goblins, especially with Siege-Gang Commander now) or Vehicles without a good amount of lifegain. Your margin of error will be razor thin.
Hmmm, so you'd rather go for a 2 Fatal Push 2 Cast Down 2 Moment of Craving split? I can see the merit, but I'd argue versatility over efficiency G1. Do you see your local meta as a place where you'll be forced to specialize for R/X Aggro? If so, no argument there. I'll concede your argument in favor of Cast Down, but I don't see myself ever replacing a Fatal Push with a Moment of Craving in my main. It's not as hard to turn on as people think, even without a playset of Evolving Wilds.
Really good against what? You're making a guy to turn on their removal. What x/1 or x/2 is this good against where you wouldn't rather have Push, Cast Down, or Moment?
Really go-wide matchups where an extra chump block shines, making the card 2 for 1; midrange matchups where you can still use the block later on; as a combat trick in situations where Fatal Push can't be used; and as a way to reduce 2 damage in situations where Fatal Push would do nothing.
Like I said before, I probably won't be making room in my main 60 for it, but I think it covers enough creatures with good upside to prove relevant. It loses to Push hard post 3 CMC provided you can turn Push on, so it's probably not main material. At least not in mine.
It gets rid of Carnage Tyrant...except when you didn't have time to kill the random Llanowar Elves lingering around, or whatever other weenie you ignored in favor of the real threats. I like the card in general, but that's the type of thing that can cost you a match. Better safe than sorry.
Seems like you've been in trouble vs this deck several times, what specific line of play are you having issues with? I don't expect to mainboard vs everything, and if I'm building the way I'm building (I'll probably need 2 Doomfall main regardless, need the miandeck response vs Tyrant) you expect to have an unfavorable MU against Dinos in exchange of a better MU against Constrictor. Post SB, you got Vizier of Many Faces, Gifted Aetherborn, and Gonti, Lord of Luxury to deal.
You do make a lot of valid points tho, not in the form of lifegain but in the form of lifeloss, if that makes sense. As such, I'm adjusting some things and probably passing on Dark Bargain for the time being:
I feel like the deck has some tension between tapping out and leaving up permission. Champion of Wits and Doomfall are fine cards, but it makes it much harder to represent Disallow, Syncopate, and Supreme Will. If you would like to field more creatures I think a tap-out midrange style such as the UB Midrange lists seeing tournament success would be better. The deck is very trim on permission with most of their reactive spells on CMC 4 to defend the threats they tapped out for, or get ahead on board with removal. Glint-Sleeve Siphoner is also a great card, sometimes winning the game on its own if an opponent stumbles or is removal light. There would be plenty of room in the mana base for 4 Aether Hub.
I like the reanimation theme and Memorial to Folly in a creature heavy build. I would prefer more Field of Ruin since the colour base is consistent to combat enemy utility lands. Ipnu Rivulet could be good to fill up your graveyard with threats or act as an out to a control stalemate. I also like Doomfall in a tap out build since it is so flexible.
Since it has been debated I will reiterate on Fungal Infection; I think it will be a great sideboard card against all the x/1s mentioned by Torrysan. Others could include:
It's just so tempo positive on many of our opponent's plays while also creating difficult combat situations and saving us some life. In game 2 one would expect most removal to come out against a control player, making the token the spell creates a nice speed bump without contest in most occasions. If the opponent would like to leave in Fatal Push against us to dump on the incidental creature, they are welcome.
What are people's thoughts on Censor in the coming format? Feels great that it can get anything early, especially when others are trying to advance their mana with Llanowar Elves. But would we just rather more removal instead of the cycling late?
I feel like the deck has some tension between tapping out and leaving up permission. Champion of Wits and Doomfall are fine cards, but it makes it much harder to represent Disallow, Syncopate, and Supreme Will. If you would like to field more creatures I think a tap-out midrange style such as the UB Midrange lists seeing tournament success would be better. The deck is very trim on permission with most of their reactive spells on CMC 4 to defend the threats they tapped out for, or get ahead on board with removal. Glint-Sleeve Siphoner is also a great card, sometimes winning the game on its own if an opponent stumbles or is removal light. There would be plenty of room in the mana base for 4 Aether Hub.
Yeah, and I have that problem pretty much every rotation, trying to go into 2 different directions. Maybe it's as easy as going all out on the Torrential Gearhulk and instants, maybe keeping only the Ravenous Chupacabras and The Scarab Gods for creatures?
That decklist looks interesting, but I'm missing a couple cards from there to attempt it atm. I've laso had more playtime with the reactive version, so that's probably what I'll be streamlining for my events.
I like the reanimation theme and Memorial to Folly in a creature heavy build. I would prefer more Field of Ruin since the colour base is consistent to combat enemy utility lands. Ipnu Rivulet could be good to fill up your graveyard with threats or act as an out to a control stalemate. I also like Doomfall in a tap out build since it is so flexible.
I'm actually thinking of cutting 1 Memorial to Folly or Memorial to Genius, I don't think my tapland count is optimal atm. Might put the 2nd Field of Ruin back in, just scared of situations where I can't cast the 2c efficiently.
What are people's thoughts on Censor in the coming format? Feels great that it can get anything early, especially when others are trying to advance their mana with Llanowar Elves. But would we just rather more removal instead of the cycling late?
Depends on how much you want the cycling I guess? To me, Syncopate is just better in nearly every situation, and it's what I'll be rolling with.
With the main deck kill spells, I've got a pretty good spread of taking out early 1- and 2-drops from RDW, Push takes care of Kari Zev. The Moment may become a 4th copy of either. Also, depending on local meta, I could go down to 4 draw spells and add another kill spell...
I also wanted to share this list. It was Top 4 at a tournament in Japan, I assume Hareruya (the tourney name wonderfully translates to "The man who keeps the spirit, Jayce struggle Standard Cup"). It seems fairly heavily geared against aggro decks, with both Moment and Essence Extraction main, and even one Battle at the Bridge! The two Summonings look like it could be interesting.
In theory, you could take this shell and run 2-3 Craving, 3-2 Cast Down (instead of the Extractions), and maybe find some way to add in some Syncopates - drop the Commit and one the Blood Fast, maybe, or even shave to 3 Disallow...
Hmmm, so you'd rather go for a 2 Fatal Push 2 Cast Down 2 Moment of Craving split? I can see the merit, but I'd argue versatility over efficiency G1. Do you see your local meta as a place where you'll be forced to specialize for R/X Aggro? If so, no argument there. I'll concede your argument in favor of Cast Down, but I don't see myself ever replacing a Fatal Push with a Moment of Craving in my main. It's not as hard to turn on as people think, even without a playset of Evolving Wilds.
I'm testing 4 Cast Down, 3 Moment Of Craving, and it is looking really good right now, but I am Esper, so I have Settle to clean up. These are just to keep me alive until the mid game. I think UB has to be even more selective since your sweepers are much less versatile.
Really go-wide matchups where an extra chump block shines, making the card 2 for 1; midrange matchups where you can still use the block later on; as a combat trick in situations where Fatal Push can't be used; and as a way to reduce 2 damage in situations where Fatal Push would do nothing.
Like I said before, I probably won't be making room in my main 60 for it, but I think it covers enough creatures with good upside to prove relevant. It loses to Push hard post 3 CMC provided you can turn Push on, so it's probably not main material. At least not in mine.
Respectfully, I don't think it's realistic to expect this to work very often. You may get a guy or two in the red matchup, but, again, you're turning on their removal (Abrade at least stays in for Gearhulk, Maybe Magma Spray for Scarab God), and there is a significant number of things this does not kill. It also kills very little in the other aggro matches, and is completely trumped by any Anthem effect. If you need red hate that bad, I'd still go for Contraband Kingpin over this, 10/10 times.
Seems like you've been in trouble vs this deck several times, what specific line of play are you having issues with? I don't expect to mainboard vs everything, and if I'm building the way I'm building (I'll probably need 2 Doomfall main regardless, need the miandeck response vs Tyrant) you expect to have an unfavorable MU against Dinos in exchange of a better MU against Constrictor. Post SB, you got Vizier of Many Faces, Gifted Aetherborn, and Gonti, Lord of Luxury to deal.
You do make a lot of valid points tho, not in the form of lifegain but in the form of lifeloss, if that makes sense. As such, I'm adjusting some things and probably passing on Dark Bargain for the time being:
Honestly, I've only lost to a Carnage Tyrant once or twice. I still feel the need to have a real plan for them, they are seeing more and more play where I am. People are tired of losing to me and my friend who plays Esper Cycling (possibly the most annoying, grindy deck on Earth lol).
I feel like the deck has some tension between tapping out and leaving up permission. Champion of Wits and Doomfall are fine cards, but it makes it much harder to represent Disallow, Syncopate, and Supreme Will. If you would like to field more creatures I think a tap-out midrange style such as the UB Midrange lists seeing tournament success would be better. The deck is very trim on permission with most of their reactive spells on CMC 4 to defend the threats they tapped out for, or get ahead on board with removal. Glint-Sleeve Siphoner is also a great card, sometimes winning the game on its own if an opponent stumbles or is removal light. There would be plenty of room in the mana base for 4 Aether Hub.
I like the reanimation theme and Memorial to Folly in a creature heavy build. I would prefer more Field of Ruin since the colour base is consistent to combat enemy utility lands. Ipnu Rivulet could be good to fill up your graveyard with threats or act as an out to a control stalemate. I also like Doomfall in a tap out build since it is so flexible.
Since it has been debated I will reiterate on Fungal Infection; I think it will be a great sideboard card against all the x/1s mentioned by Torrysan. Others could include:
It's just so tempo positive on many of our opponent's plays while also creating difficult combat situations and saving us some life. In game 2 one would expect most removal to come out against a control player, making the token the spell creates a nice speed bump without contest in most occasions. If the opponent would like to leave in Fatal Push against us to dump on the incidental creature, they are welcome.
What are people's thoughts on Censor in the coming format? Feels great that it can get anything early, especially when others are trying to advance their mana with Llanowar Elves. But would we just rather more removal instead of the cycling late?
Personally, I think Llanowar Elves make Censor almost unplayable. That T1 boost will render it obsolete even faster in games.
Respectfully, I don't think it's realistic to expect [Fungal Infection] to work very often. You may get a guy or two in the red matchup, but, again, you're turning on their removal (Abrade at least stays in for Gearhulk, Maybe Magma Spray for Scarab God), and there is a significant number of things this does not kill. It also kills very little in the other aggro matches, and is completely trumped by any Anthem effect. If you need red hate that bad, I'd still go for Contraband Kingpin over this, 10/10 times.
I understand what you're saying and agree that Fungal Infection isn't for every situation. Most of my stats are from MTG Goldfish. If you see somerecentleagues the card covers 30-50% of the ten most popular creatures across a few decks in some manner. It likely needs testing, but is probably worth consideration. I think also that taxing an opponent's removal is good if this card catches it; we may be removing a creature outright with one spell, and if they spend a second spell against the token then it becomes a clean 2-for-1. If a combined -1/-1 effect and blocker also draws removal with the creature surviving after the fact then it is still a 1-for-1. In a deck that aims to pull ahead on resources this may be enough. Again, it needs testing.
Seeing how people regard Censor feels correct. I wasn't sure how to evaluate it. If the opponent keeps their mana accelerator on board we are likely behind.
One sideboard card I forgot about potentially is Lyra Dawnbringer. If the red and other aggro match-ups are worrisome, then they will have a hard time dealing with this. The only line I could think of is a double damage based removal spell or nightmare scenario Glorybringer exert into Chandra, Torch of Defiance tick down. Ixalan's Binding also seems strong against it, but it is a spell that doesn't develop the aggro player's board. Seems worth considering, especially if we can keep permission to protect it.
How do people feel about Blink of an Eye? Feels weak to me, and many creatures have great ETB effects, but it answers most permanents for a turn and often draws us a card so that we may deal with the threat later. Also rare lines where you can save The Scarab God from exile and re-buying Torrential Gearhulk similar to Cryptic Command + Snapcaster Mage. With Consign // Oblivion seeing some play as a one-of, perhaps there is room?
Respectfully, I don't think it's realistic to expect [Fungal Infection] to work very often. You may get a guy or two in the red matchup, but, again, you're turning on their removal (Abrade at least stays in for Gearhulk, Maybe Magma Spray for Scarab God), and there is a significant number of things this does not kill. It also kills very little in the other aggro matches, and is completely trumped by any Anthem effect. If you need red hate that bad, I'd still go for Contraband Kingpin over this, 10/10 times.
I can see how Contraband Kingpin would work better in some situations, but it's not really a reactive play. You cast it and give your opponent options. Fungal Infection is better in that regard, but I will agree that realistically it'd be the only matchup you want to bring them in for. Is that enough to justify SB space?
I understand what you're saying and agree that Fungal Infection isn't for every situation. Most of my stats are from MTG Goldfish. If you see some recent leagues the card covers 30-50% of the ten most popular creatures across a few decks in some manner. It likely needs testing, but is probably worth consideration. I think also that taxing an opponent's removal is good if this card catches it; we may be removing a creature outright with one spell, and if they spend a second spell against the token then it becomes a clean 2-for-1. If a combined -1/-1 effect and blocker also draws removal with the creature surviving after the fact then it is still a 1-for-1. In a deck that aims to pull ahead on resources this may be enough. Again, it needs testing.
Exactly, I don't see a problem with enabling removal they would use on your good creatures afterwards. They're spending mana and being inefficient. The only real problem I would see, which is a legit one, is enabling Unlicensed Disintegration and helping them race.
Seeing how people regard Censor feels correct. I wasn't sure how to evaluate it. If the opponent keeps their mana accelerator on board we are likely behind.
One sideboard card I forgot about potentially is Lyra Dawnbringer. If the red and other aggro match-ups are worrisome, then they will have a hard time dealing with this. The only line I could think of is a double damage based removal spell or nightmare scenario Glorybringer exert into Chandra, Torch of Defiance tick down. Ixalan's Binding also seems strong against it, but it is a spell that doesn't develop the aggro player's board. Seems worth considering, especially if we can keep permission to protect it.
Yeah, looks like a lot of people are sold on this card, according to the speculative pricing
How do people feel about Blink of an Eye? Feels weak to me, and many creatures have great ETB effects, but it answers most permanents for a turn and often draws us a card so that we may deal with the threat later. Also rare lines where you can save The Scarab God from exile and re-buying Torrential Gearhulk similar to Cryptic Command + Snapcaster Mage. With Consign // Oblivion seeing some play as a one-of, perhaps there is room?
It looks a bit weak, but usable. Would you see yourself taking any of your counterspells out to put this card in? I guess you could cut your removal count (depending on how fond you are of Fatal Push) if you really wanted to include it, definitely could see use. Even Liliana, Death's Majesty loops look pretty sick. Hell, you're kinda selling me on it.
I can see how Contraband Kingpin would work better in some situations, but it's not really a reactive play. You cast it and give your opponent options. Fungal Infection is better in that regard, but I will agree that realistically it'd be the only matchup you want to bring them in for. Is that enough to justify SB space?
Exactly, I don't see a problem with enabling removal they would use on your good creatures afterwards. They're spending mana and being inefficient. The only real problem I would see, which is a legit one, is enabling Unlicensed Disintegration and helping them race.
I just don't think there is enough room to play removal THAT narrow. Also, what match is it decent against beside red and maybe tokens? Seems mediocre to terrible against everything else. It may kill Ballista for 1 and Siphoner, but do you really want to hinge a match on that chance? Kingpin is at least a relevant speed bump in every aggro/midrange match, great against red, and is insane resurrected by The Scarab God.
It looks a bit weak, but usable. Would you see yourself taking any of your counterspells out to put this card in? I guess you could cut your removal count (depending on how fond you are of Fatal Push) if you really wanted to include it, definitely could see use. Even Liliana, Death's Majesty loops look pretty sick. Hell, you're kinda selling me on it.
I think I'd still play Commit over it, but this fall, it looks like good money. Into The Roil was really good in it's Standard.
Ok, Domanaira, I think the new set is going to make standard into a very fast format. The guys at my LGS has been brewing UG Monsters and now drop Carnage Tyrant on turn 3 pretty consistently. Our old way of thinking about games, play land go until turn 4-5 then board wipe, I don't think is going to work.
Respect the Carnage Tyrant...and all of the other pushed, high priced stuff that will be coming out really fast now. Playing no sort of hard answer to it may lead to some ugly losses...
Red decks play Puncturing Blow to deal with creatures like Lyra Dawnbringer.
That's a piece of technology if I've seen one. Looks like it's a 1-of in the sideboard to deal with The Scarab God, so I'd be pleased to overload their answers with another threat. That being said it's worth noting, but I'd much rather the red deck taps out for this than Chandra, Torch of Defiance. I guess we should look for a window where we can keep up permission if we suspect it. The decks that seem to run it are the Big Red decks rather than the lower to the ground ones. The most popular difference between them seems to be the lack of Bomat Courier, Kari Zev, Skyship Raider, and Ahn-Crop Crasher replaced with Captain Lannery Storm, Pia Nalaar and maindeck Glorybringer.
As is, my only sorcery is Doomfall. Would you guys consider switching those out for Commit // Memory to maximize on the Gearhulk and instant plan?
One thing I'm concerned about is not maxing out on Fatal Push leaves you vulnerable to cards like Bomat Courier and Llanowar Elves on the draw, since they snowball your opponent's advantage before you can react. Doomfall seems reasonable instead of Commit // Memory, but in the occasions that you face the control mirror you may miss the back half of the card as you lose the deck-out war. Ipnu Rivulet can help advance the deck count against your opponent and find creatures for Liliana, Death's Majesty in other situations. I'm also not a huge fan of Supreme Will, since card selection and early counters are great for decks such as the UB Midrange lists and UW Approach, but not as great for late game control decks that win on T15 or later. I'd at least make one copy into Fatal Push and then the other into your fourth Hieroglyphic Illumination.
This is what I was thinking of trying out. Changed the sideboard a little to include more hay-makers instead of Fungal Infection and no more maindeck Seal Away to add another Torrential Gearhulk and a Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. There is plenty of spot removal and the deck's plan to leverage Gearhulk as much as possible with instants like Vraska's Contempt allow us to catch up if something slips through. I'm wondering if the white splash is warranted, because UB has a nice tidy game plan with smooth mana. The problem is white can clean up troublesome permanents and has powerful sideboard options. Authority of the Consuls is one of the most popular sideboard cards in most decks that contain white, but I don't really like playing with it.
I was also thinking of Into the Roil when considering Blink of an Eye, but looking over the list there doesn't seem to be much space. My Commit // Memory slots are Settle the Wreckage. It really does look sweet though, and I might find room in the future for it when stuff rotates.
I'm actually wondering about a list that is primarily black and white with blue as the splash colour. Disallow is quite strong, but if it were replaced with single U mana permission spells like Countervailing Winds or more copies of Syncopate maybe we could better accommodate the powerful WW and BB spells available to us.
Red decks play Puncturing Blow to deal with creatures like Lyra Dawnbringer.
That's a piece of technology if I've seen one. Looks like it's a 1-of in the sideboard to deal with The Scarab God, so I'd be pleased to overload their answers with another threat. That being said it's worth noting, but I'd much rather the red deck taps out for this than Chandra, Torch of Defiance. I guess we should look for a window where we can keep up permission if we suspect it. The decks that seem to run it are the Big Red decks rather than the lower to the ground ones. The most popular difference between them seems to be the lack of Bomat Courier, Kari Zev, Skyship Raider, and Ahn-Crop Crasher replaced with Captain Lannery Storm, Pia Nalaar and maindeck Glorybringer.
As is, my only sorcery is Doomfall. Would you guys consider switching those out for Commit // Memory to maximize on the Gearhulk and instant plan?
One thing I'm concerned about is not maxing out on Fatal Push leaves you vulnerable to cards like Bomat Courier and Llanowar Elves on the draw, since they snowball your opponent's advantage before you can react. Doomfall seems reasonable instead of Commit // Memory, but in the occasions that you face the control mirror you may miss the back half of the card as you lose the deck-out war. Ipnu Rivulet can help advance the deck count against your opponent and find creatures for Liliana, Death's Majesty in other situations. I'm also not a huge fan of Supreme Will, since card selection and early counters are great for decks such as the UB Midrange lists and UW Approach, but not as great for late game control decks that win on T15 or later. I'd at least make one copy into Fatal Push and then the other into your fourth Hieroglyphic Illumination.
This is what I was thinking of trying out. Changed the sideboard a little to include more hay-makers instead of Fungal Infection and no more maindeck Seal Away to add another Torrential Gearhulk and a Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. There is plenty of spot removal and the deck's plan to leverage Gearhulk as much as possible with instants like Vraska's Contempt allow us to catch up if something slips through. I'm wondering if the white splash is warranted, because UB has a nice tidy game plan with smooth mana. The problem is white can clean up troublesome permanents and has powerful sideboard options. Authority of the Consuls is one of the most popular sideboard cards in most decks that contain white, but I don't really like playing with it.
I was also thinking of Into the Roil when considering Blink of an Eye, but looking over the list there doesn't seem to be much space. My Commit // Memory slots are Settle the Wreckage. It really does look sweet though, and I might find room in the future for it when stuff rotates.
I'm actually wondering about a list that is primarily black and white with blue as the splash colour. Disallow is quite strong, but if it were replaced with single U mana permission spells like Countervailing Winds or more copies of Syncopate maybe we could better accommodate the powerful WW and BB spells available to us.
Yikes! That Esper mana pool *shudders*. How about just staying in U/B with just a light white splash for teferi? Is it even worth it to splash white just to play him? I personally would rather stay Dimir and play Karn instead, if you have to play a PW. I'm more excited about the black saga really.
The first 5-0 lists of DOM standard are available, and there's a UB list on there. A few too many one-ofs for my liking, and surprisingly minimal card draw.
Just to note, Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage gives all the legendaries and sagas flash. That gives this "midrange" deck a whole new axis to mess with opponents. So History of Benalia isn't necessarily a tap out option, like all the other historic stuffs.
Just to note, Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage gives all the legendaries and sagas flash. That gives this "midrange" deck a whole new axis to mess with opponents. So History of Benalia isn't necessarily a tap out option, like all the other historic stuffs.
Definitely something I didn't touch on. I was more assuming a turn progression like T3 > T4 > T5 when curving out since that is a more natural way to look at the deck and its mana usage. It becomes pretty interesting what kind of plays you can make in the mid to late game with Raff, and it could lead to some crushing lines.
I like playing at instant speed, but I'm concerned with how fragile the card is. Trading 4 mana at instant speed for 2 mana in Abrade, Lightning Strike, or worse like revolt Fatal Push discourages me from playing it. That being said I am biased to playing as few creatures as possible when deck-building. The midrange style deck likely can overload its opponents removal beforehand and remain tempo positive for the rest of the game.
These lists are interesting. IDK if I can get behind Esper with no Teferi, Hero Of Dominaria, though. The card is SO STRONG. I also agree on Lyra Dawnbringer not being a MD card.
These lists are interesting. IDK if I can get behind Esper with no Teferi, Hero Of Dominaria, though. The card is SO STRONG. I also agree on Lyra Dawnbringer not being a MD card.
This is about where I am with my thinking too. Really, Teferi and maybe some permanent removal (Cast Out, Ixalan's Binding) should be the main reasons to go Esper over UB.
And thanks Cherry for posting the other lists. I didn't catch them on my look through, as I usually check a list of performing UB decks on mtgdecks.com, rather than the mothership, as it has more than just the MTGO leagues.
Doomfall seems like a very good main deck card especially against midrange/control decks that plays a lot of threats. I don't think just 4 vraska's contempt is enough against decks playing lyra, karn and teferi. It's pretty good to snag annoying saga too. What do you guys think?
I also still think that staying U/B is better than Esper since we now get phyrexian scriptures. A combination of scriptures with yahenni's expertise/golden demise is pretty good for U/B to handle any go-wide decks.
Doomfall seems like a very good main deck card especially against midrange/control decks that plays a lot of threats. I don't think just 4 vraska's contempt is enough against decks playing lyra, karn and teferi. It's pretty good to snag annoying saga too. What do you guys think?
I also still think that staying U/B is better than Esper since we now get phyrexian scriptures. A combination of scriptures with yahenni's expertise/golden demise is pretty good for U/B to handle any go-wide decks.
I realize this isn't the place for UW control discussion, but after watching TCG Player's Corey Baumeister play this Esper list where cards like The Scarab God and Vraska's Contempt were sometimes cards he cut and added in more Lyra Dawnbringer, wishing there were more Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. Maybe pure UW is the way to go?
That being said the list performed very well as Esper, though the mana woes were real. 26 lands is likely where we want to be, and perhaps some attention paid to the colour fixing as well if this list is a real shell going forward.
I realize this isn't the place for UW control discussion, but after watching TCG Player's Corey Baumeister play this Esper list where cards like The Scarab God and Vraska's Contempt were sometimes cards he cut and added in more Lyra Dawnbringer, wishing there were more Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. Maybe pure UW is the way to go?
That being said the list performed very well as Esper, though the mana woes were real. 26 lands is likely where we want to be, and perhaps some attention paid to the colour fixing as well if this list is a real shell going forward.
After SCG ATL, I think Lyra Dawnbringer's usefulness will be diminished. Besides the finals, those things were eating Unlicenced Disintegrations all day. Red players are finally starting to play Puncturing Blow, also. I wouldn't lean on it as a main strategy. I still feel it's a SB card.
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I can see that happening, no doubt. If I'm on the play in that situation, and am lucky enough to get a non-tap land down, I'd just Push the Elf and buy myself a turn. On the draw, I'd probably be in trouble, so I guess my two copies of Cast Down would have to do. Still don't think lifegain is necessary G1 besides my 4-of Vraska's Contempt, so Imma roll 4 Fatal Push and 2 Cast Down.
Fungal Infection looks reaaaaally good. I'm contemplating putting it in SB, but idk what to take out for it.
Why not Doomfall then? it has so much more versatility and gets rid of Carnage Tyrant with both its modes. I think it just accumulated a lot of "it's a horrible card" opinions, but I've never had it in my hand as a dead card I can't cast. Maybe once against GW tokens?
That's a large assumption. I also don't see how you survive red (or Goblins, especially with Siege-Gang Commander now) or Vehicles without a good amount of lifegain. Your margin of error will be razor thin.
Really good against what? You're making a guy to turn on their removal. What x/1 or x/2 is this good against where you wouldn't rather have Push, Cast Down, or Moment?
It gets rid of Carnage Tyrant...except when you didn't have time to kill the random Llanowar Elves lingering around, or whatever other weenie you ignored in favor of the real threats. I like the card in general, but that's the type of thing that can cost you a match. Better safe than sorry.
Hmmm, so you'd rather go for a 2 Fatal Push 2 Cast Down 2 Moment of Craving split? I can see the merit, but I'd argue versatility over efficiency G1. Do you see your local meta as a place where you'll be forced to specialize for R/X Aggro? If so, no argument there. I'll concede your argument in favor of Cast Down, but I don't see myself ever replacing a Fatal Push with a Moment of Craving in my main. It's not as hard to turn on as people think, even without a playset of Evolving Wilds.
Really go-wide matchups where an extra chump block shines, making the card 2 for 1; midrange matchups where you can still use the block later on; as a combat trick in situations where Fatal Push can't be used; and as a way to reduce 2 damage in situations where Fatal Push would do nothing.
It ties with Fatal Push on all x/2 creatures, but gives you advantage vs most x/1s (and therefore, their corresponding decks) in the format:
Bomat Courier
Earthshaker Khenra
Direfleet Daredevil
Toolcraft Exemplar
Combat Celebrant (rose in popularity, apparently?)
Warkite Marauder
Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
Llanowar Elves (soon)
Like I said before, I probably won't be making room in my main 60 for it, but I think it covers enough creatures with good upside to prove relevant. It loses to Push hard post 3 CMC provided you can turn Push on, so it's probably not main material. At least not in mine.
Seems like you've been in trouble vs this deck several times, what specific line of play are you having issues with? I don't expect to mainboard vs everything, and if I'm building the way I'm building (I'll probably need 2 Doomfall main regardless, need the miandeck response vs Tyrant) you expect to have an unfavorable MU against Dinos in exchange of a better MU against Constrictor. Post SB, you got Vizier of Many Faces, Gifted Aetherborn, and Gonti, Lord of Luxury to deal.
You do make a lot of valid points tho, not in the form of lifegain but in the form of lifeloss, if that makes sense. As such, I'm adjusting some things and probably passing on Dark Bargain for the time being:
2 Champion of Wits
2 Ravenous Chupacabra
3 Torrential Gearhulk
2 The Scarab God
2 Liliana, Death's Majesty
Counters
2 Essence Scatter
3 Disallow
2 Supreme Will
2 Syncopate
Removal
3 Fatal Push
2 Cast Down
2 Doomfall
3 Vraska's Contempt
2 Search For Azcanta
2 Hieroglyphic Illumination
Lands
4 Fetid Pools
4 Drowned Catacombs
2 Memorial to Folly
1 Memorial to Genius
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Field of Ruin
6 Swamp
6 Island
2 Unwind
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
2 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Moment of Craving
2 Duress
2 Arguel's Blood Fast
2 Negate
1 Nezahal, Primal Tide
1 Vizier of Many Faces
How's that look? May cut 1 Champion of Wits for another Hieroglyphic Illumination if the cycling proves to be vital.
Also thinking of cutting 1 Torrential Gearhulk for a third Ravenous Chupacabra.
I feel like the deck has some tension between tapping out and leaving up permission. Champion of Wits and Doomfall are fine cards, but it makes it much harder to represent Disallow, Syncopate, and Supreme Will. If you would like to field more creatures I think a tap-out midrange style such as the UB Midrange lists seeing tournament success would be better. The deck is very trim on permission with most of their reactive spells on CMC 4 to defend the threats they tapped out for, or get ahead on board with removal. Glint-Sleeve Siphoner is also a great card, sometimes winning the game on its own if an opponent stumbles or is removal light. There would be plenty of room in the mana base for 4 Aether Hub.
I like the reanimation theme and Memorial to Folly in a creature heavy build. I would prefer more Field of Ruin since the colour base is consistent to combat enemy utility lands. Ipnu Rivulet could be good to fill up your graveyard with threats or act as an out to a control stalemate. I also like Doomfall in a tap out build since it is so flexible.
Since it has been debated I will reiterate on Fungal Infection; I think it will be a great sideboard card against all the x/1s mentioned by Torrysan. Others could include:
It's just so tempo positive on many of our opponent's plays while also creating difficult combat situations and saving us some life. In game 2 one would expect most removal to come out against a control player, making the token the spell creates a nice speed bump without contest in most occasions. If the opponent would like to leave in Fatal Push against us to dump on the incidental creature, they are welcome.
What are people's thoughts on Censor in the coming format? Feels great that it can get anything early, especially when others are trying to advance their mana with Llanowar Elves. But would we just rather more removal instead of the cycling late?
Yeah, and I have that problem pretty much every rotation, trying to go into 2 different directions. Maybe it's as easy as going all out on the Torrential Gearhulk and instants, maybe keeping only the Ravenous Chupacabras and The Scarab Gods for creatures?
That decklist looks interesting, but I'm missing a couple cards from there to attempt it atm. I've laso had more playtime with the reactive version, so that's probably what I'll be streamlining for my events.
I'm actually thinking of cutting 1 Memorial to Folly or Memorial to Genius, I don't think my tapland count is optimal atm. Might put the 2nd Field of Ruin back in, just scared of situations where I can't cast the 2c efficiently.
Depends on how much you want the cycling I guess? To me, Syncopate is just better in nearly every situation, and it's what I'll be rolling with.
3 Cast Down
1 Unwind
1 Moment of Craving
3 Disallow
2 Essence Scatter
3 Fatal Push
3 Glimmer of Genius
2 Hieroglyphic Illumination
1 Supreme Will
2 Syncopate
3 Vraska's Contempt
1 Commit // Memory
2 The Scarab God
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Enchantments (2)
2 Search for Azcanta
Land (26)
2 Memorial to Genius
2 Field of Ruin
3 Aether Hub
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
5 Island
6 Swamp
3 Contraband Kingpin
1 Deadeye Tracker
2 Duress
2 Phyrexian Scriptures
2 Moment of Craving
2 Negate
1 Golden Demise
1 Nezahal, Primal Tide
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
I also wanted to share this list. It was Top 4 at a tournament in Japan, I assume Hareruya (the tourney name wonderfully translates to "The man who keeps the spirit, Jayce struggle Standard Cup"). It seems fairly heavily geared against aggro decks, with both Moment and Essence Extraction main, and even one Battle at the Bridge! The two Summonings look like it could be interesting.
And yes, it's 61 cards.
2 The Scarab God
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Instant (23)
1 Commit/Memory
4 Disallow
2 Essence Extraction
2 Essence Scatter
4 Fatal Push
4 Glimmer of Genius
3 Moment of Craving
3 Vraska's Contempt
Sorcery (1)
1 Battle at the Bridge
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
2 Metallurgic Summonings
2 Search for Azcanta
Land (26)
1 Arch of Orazca
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Evolving Wilds
4 Fetid Pools
2 Field of Ruin
7 Island
1 Submerged Boneyard
6 Swamp
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
2 Doomfall
3 Duress
3 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Golden Demise
2 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
2 Negate
In theory, you could take this shell and run 2-3 Craving, 3-2 Cast Down (instead of the Extractions), and maybe find some way to add in some Syncopates - drop the Commit and one the Blood Fast, maybe, or even shave to 3 Disallow...
I'm testing 4 Cast Down, 3 Moment Of Craving, and it is looking really good right now, but I am Esper, so I have Settle to clean up. These are just to keep me alive until the mid game. I think UB has to be even more selective since your sweepers are much less versatile.
Respectfully, I don't think it's realistic to expect this to work very often. You may get a guy or two in the red matchup, but, again, you're turning on their removal (Abrade at least stays in for Gearhulk, Maybe Magma Spray for Scarab God), and there is a significant number of things this does not kill. It also kills very little in the other aggro matches, and is completely trumped by any Anthem effect. If you need red hate that bad, I'd still go for Contraband Kingpin over this, 10/10 times.
Honestly, I've only lost to a Carnage Tyrant once or twice. I still feel the need to have a real plan for them, they are seeing more and more play where I am. People are tired of losing to me and my friend who plays Esper Cycling (possibly the most annoying, grindy deck on Earth lol).
Personally, I think Llanowar Elves make Censor almost unplayable. That T1 boost will render it obsolete even faster in games.
I understand what you're saying and agree that Fungal Infection isn't for every situation. Most of my stats are from MTG Goldfish. If you see some recent leagues the card covers 30-50% of the ten most popular creatures across a few decks in some manner. It likely needs testing, but is probably worth consideration. I think also that taxing an opponent's removal is good if this card catches it; we may be removing a creature outright with one spell, and if they spend a second spell against the token then it becomes a clean 2-for-1. If a combined -1/-1 effect and blocker also draws removal with the creature surviving after the fact then it is still a 1-for-1. In a deck that aims to pull ahead on resources this may be enough. Again, it needs testing.
Seeing how people regard Censor feels correct. I wasn't sure how to evaluate it. If the opponent keeps their mana accelerator on board we are likely behind.
One sideboard card I forgot about potentially is Lyra Dawnbringer. If the red and other aggro match-ups are worrisome, then they will have a hard time dealing with this. The only line I could think of is a double damage based removal spell or nightmare scenario Glorybringer exert into Chandra, Torch of Defiance tick down. Ixalan's Binding also seems strong against it, but it is a spell that doesn't develop the aggro player's board. Seems worth considering, especially if we can keep permission to protect it.
How do people feel about Blink of an Eye? Feels weak to me, and many creatures have great ETB effects, but it answers most permanents for a turn and often draws us a card so that we may deal with the threat later. Also rare lines where you can save The Scarab God from exile and re-buying Torrential Gearhulk similar to Cryptic Command + Snapcaster Mage. With Consign // Oblivion seeing some play as a one-of, perhaps there is room?
I can see how Contraband Kingpin would work better in some situations, but it's not really a reactive play. You cast it and give your opponent options. Fungal Infection is better in that regard, but I will agree that realistically it'd be the only matchup you want to bring them in for. Is that enough to justify SB space?
Exactly, I don't see a problem with enabling removal they would use on your good creatures afterwards. They're spending mana and being inefficient. The only real problem I would see, which is a legit one, is enabling Unlicensed Disintegration and helping them race.
It's dead to me. Cycling doesn't sell the card like it does with Hieroglyphic Illumination.
Yeah, looks like a lot of people are sold on this card, according to the speculative pricing
It looks a bit weak, but usable. Would you see yourself taking any of your counterspells out to put this card in? I guess you could cut your removal count (depending on how fond you are of Fatal Push) if you really wanted to include it, definitely could see use. Even Liliana, Death's Majesty loops look pretty sick. Hell, you're kinda selling me on it.
2 Ravenous Chupacabra
4 Torrential Gearhulk
2 The Scarab God
2 Liliana, Death's Majesty
Counters
2 Essence Scatter
3 Disallow
2 Supreme Will
2 Syncopate
Removal
2 Fatal Push
2 Cast Down
2 Doomfall
4 Vraska's Contempt
2 Search For Azcanta
3 Hieroglyphic Illumination
Lands
4 Fetid Pools
4 Drowned Catacombs
1 Memorial to Folly
1 Memorial to Genius
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Field of Ruin
6 Swamp
6 Island
2 Unwind
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
2 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Moment of Craving
2 Duress
2 Arguel's Blood Fast
2 Negate
1 Nezahal, Primal Tide
1 Vizier of Many Faces
IF for some reason I get Teferi, Hero of Dominaria on prerelease or booster box, I could give Esper a shot.
As is, my only sorcery is Doomfall. Would you guys consider switching those out for Commit // Memory to maximize on the Gearhulk and instant plan?
EDIT: From the U/W Approach thread:
Respect the Carnage Tyrant...and all of the other pushed, high priced stuff that will be coming out really fast now. Playing no sort of hard answer to it may lead to some ugly losses...
That's a piece of technology if I've seen one. Looks like it's a 1-of in the sideboard to deal with The Scarab God, so I'd be pleased to overload their answers with another threat. That being said it's worth noting, but I'd much rather the red deck taps out for this than Chandra, Torch of Defiance. I guess we should look for a window where we can keep up permission if we suspect it. The decks that seem to run it are the Big Red decks rather than the lower to the ground ones. The most popular difference between them seems to be the lack of Bomat Courier, Kari Zev, Skyship Raider, and Ahn-Crop Crasher replaced with Captain Lannery Storm, Pia Nalaar and maindeck Glorybringer.
One thing I'm concerned about is not maxing out on Fatal Push leaves you vulnerable to cards like Bomat Courier and Llanowar Elves on the draw, since they snowball your opponent's advantage before you can react. Doomfall seems reasonable instead of Commit // Memory, but in the occasions that you face the control mirror you may miss the back half of the card as you lose the deck-out war. Ipnu Rivulet can help advance the deck count against your opponent and find creatures for Liliana, Death's Majesty in other situations. I'm also not a huge fan of Supreme Will, since card selection and early counters are great for decks such as the UB Midrange lists and UW Approach, but not as great for late game control decks that win on T15 or later. I'd at least make one copy into Fatal Push and then the other into your fourth Hieroglyphic Illumination.
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
4 Irrigated Farmland
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Island
Non-land Permanents (10)
2 Search for Azcanta
2 The Scarab God
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
4 Torrential Gearhulk
4 Fatal Push
3 Essence Scatter
2 Cast Down
3 Disallow
2 Syncopate
4 Vraska's Contempt
2 Settle the Wreckage
4 Hieroglyphic Illumination
1 Lyra Dawnbringer
2 Duress
2 Fumigate
1 Profane Procession
1 Nezahal, Primal Tide
2 Negate
2 Contraband Kingpin
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
2 Ixalan's Binding
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
This is what I was thinking of trying out. Changed the sideboard a little to include more hay-makers instead of Fungal Infection and no more maindeck Seal Away to add another Torrential Gearhulk and a Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. There is plenty of spot removal and the deck's plan to leverage Gearhulk as much as possible with instants like Vraska's Contempt allow us to catch up if something slips through. I'm wondering if the white splash is warranted, because UB has a nice tidy game plan with smooth mana. The problem is white can clean up troublesome permanents and has powerful sideboard options. Authority of the Consuls is one of the most popular sideboard cards in most decks that contain white, but I don't really like playing with it.
I was also thinking of Into the Roil when considering Blink of an Eye, but looking over the list there doesn't seem to be much space. My Commit // Memory slots are Settle the Wreckage. It really does look sweet though, and I might find room in the future for it when stuff rotates.
I'm actually wondering about a list that is primarily black and white with blue as the splash colour. Disallow is quite strong, but if it were replaced with single U mana permission spells like Countervailing Winds or more copies of Syncopate maybe we could better accommodate the powerful WW and BB spells available to us.
2 The Scarab God
3 Torrential Gearhulk
Instant [26]
1 Cast Down
1 Commit/Memory
4 Disallow
4 Essence Scatter
4 Fatal Push
1 Glimmer of Genius
2 Hieroglyphic Illumination
1 Moment of Craving
1 Supreme Will
3 Syncopate
4 Vraska's Contempt
2 Search for Azcanta
Planeswalker [1]
1 Liliana, Death's Majesty
Land [26]
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
3 Field of Ruin
7 Island
2 Submerged Boneyard
6 Swamp
2 Arguel's Blood Fast
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Doomfall
2 Duress
1 Essence Extraction
3 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1 Moment of Craving
3 Negate
Control list can be found here.
Midrange list can be found here.
The control and midrange lists include copies of Lyra Dawnbringer in the main, notably along side The Scarab God. For the control version it tends to lean toward white, having more copies of Settle the Wreckage as opposed to Vraska's Contempt while maxing out at 4 Seal Away.
The midrange version includes Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage as a proactive play while they leave 4 mana up, and another tap-out option in History of Benalia.
After looking at the mana bases they seem terribly inconsistent, but they seem to have performed well in the first leagues.
Definitely something I didn't touch on. I was more assuming a turn progression like T3 > T4 > T5 when curving out since that is a more natural way to look at the deck and its mana usage. It becomes pretty interesting what kind of plays you can make in the mid to late game with Raff, and it could lead to some crushing lines.
I like playing at instant speed, but I'm concerned with how fragile the card is. Trading 4 mana at instant speed for 2 mana in Abrade, Lightning Strike, or worse like revolt Fatal Push discourages me from playing it. That being said I am biased to playing as few creatures as possible when deck-building. The midrange style deck likely can overload its opponents removal beforehand and remain tempo positive for the rest of the game.
I would be interested in playing the control shell presented earlier but without Ixalan's Binding in the main and instead more Hieroglyphic Illumination or perhaps some copies of Syncopate. I'm not high on Lyra Dawnbringer mainboard, since a lot of decks will actually have removal to point at her such as Struggle // Survive out of RG Monsters or Vraska's Contempt out of the mirror. Sideboard use will likely prove effective and she can be replaced with more Torrential Gearhulk or Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. I've already talked about how I feel about Supreme Will, but maybe a singleton is justified.
And thanks Cherry for posting the other lists. I didn't catch them on my look through, as I usually check a list of performing UB decks on mtgdecks.com, rather than the mothership, as it has more than just the MTGO leagues.
I also still think that staying U/B is better than Esper since we now get phyrexian scriptures. A combination of scriptures with yahenni's expertise/golden demise is pretty good for U/B to handle any go-wide decks.
We discussed these issues a page or two ago.
That being said the list performed very well as Esper, though the mana woes were real. 26 lands is likely where we want to be, and perhaps some attention paid to the colour fixing as well if this list is a real shell going forward.
After SCG ATL, I think Lyra Dawnbringer's usefulness will be diminished. Besides the finals, those things were eating Unlicenced Disintegrations all day. Red players are finally starting to play Puncturing Blow, also. I wouldn't lean on it as a main strategy. I still feel it's a SB card.