It's actually not that hard. I mean, by the time you're dropping Gearhulk you're on 7-8 permanents (at least 6 land, ideally a Search, and the Gearhulk). Run a couple of other permanents (eg post board) like Aetherborn, Hostage Taker, Chupas, etc, even Scarab God and one activation makes 10. Then you're seeing six cards a turn, and the game gets locked up pretty quickly.
I also saw a list that had two Search and one Treasure Map - that's also not a bad option for getting Ascend, ramping, and getting more card advantage.
I'm talking really about the mana needed to power both, not the ascend itself. I personally prefer running 3 search and 1 bloodfast in the sideboard. Bloodfast is nice becasuse it can't get hit by field of ruin
I see your point, but still... a singleton Arch isn't going to be in play as often as a flipped Search. When it is, and you have the mana to activate both, it's amazing. Super lock down. When you don't, it's an alternative option that could very well be active if Search hasn't flipped, or isn't even in play.
I'm talking really about the mana needed to power both, not the ascend itself. I personally prefer running 3 search and 1 bloodfast in the sideboard. Bloodfast is nice becasuse it can't get hit by field of ruin
I run 2 Blood Fast SB. I'm all about drawing cards lol.
I see your point, but still... a singleton Arch isn't going to be in play as often as a flipped Search. When it is, and you have the mana to activate both, it's amazing. Super lock down. When you don't, it's an alternative option that could very well be active if Search hasn't flipped, or isn't even in play.
I love the Arch, and in non-scarab grixis/UR control I actually went up to 27 land to accomodate it (why play scarbless grixis or simply UR? many reasons, but long story short is that its not obvious the advantages outweigh the costs, so i wouldnt recommend it). But I think there are 2 reasons UB does not run arch.
1)The interactive spells in grixis was extemely cheap (it was all 1 mana or 2 mana for removal, and 3 mana only for disallow), so it was really easy to interact+arch as soon as arch was on. With a glut of 4 mana removal spells + scarab god activations, the deck is really mana hungry. 6 mana for 1 card is too bad a rate.
2) It feels much more win-more in UB than scarabless grixis. If you are UB you presumably run scabby, wich means: (a) you already have at least 4 card advantage engines (2 azcanta, 2 scabs), one of which actually kills the opponent and (b) scarificing creatures to a flipped blood fast really helps to stabilize, and this is after you drew 4-6 cards, at 2 mana each. This is a much more efficient rate than the arch.
TL;DR: the moment you put scabs in your deck, it makes your deck mana hungry in a way that makes arch not good; also, in UB arguel draws at a better rate and has late game synergy with scabs.
Good points. I'm actually thinking of moving my Arch to the side, and running an Arch and a Bloodfast for control matches. I read somewhere a while back that control matches come down to card advantage and not falling behind on land. I'm thinking that going up to 26 land for control games can't hurt. I'll post a list tomorrow when I'm not on a cell phone.
I love the Arch, and in non-scarab grixis/UR control I actually went up to 27 land to accomodate it (why play scarbless grixis or simply UR? many reasons, but long story short is that its not obvious the advantages outweigh the costs, so i wouldnt recommend it). But I think there are 2 reasons UB does not run arch.
1)The interactive spells in grixis was extemely cheap (it was all 1 mana or 2 mana for removal, and 3 mana only for disallow), so it was really easy to interact+arch as soon as arch was on. With a glut of 4 mana removal spells + scarab god activations, the deck is really mana hungry. 6 mana for 1 card is too bad a rate.
2) It feels much more win-more in UB than scarabless grixis. If you are UB you presumably run scabby, wich means: (a) you already have at least 4 card advantage engines (2 azcanta, 2 scabs), one of which actually kills the opponent and (b) scarificing creatures to a flipped blood fast really helps to stabilize, and this is after you drew 4-6 cards, at 2 mana each. This is a much more efficient rate than the arch.
TL;DR: the moment you put scabs in your deck, it makes your deck mana hungry in a way that makes arch not good; also, in UB arguel draws at a better rate and has late game synergy with scabs.
While you make some good points, Arch has been amazing for me. It's an extra draw source that doesn't skip over your win cons like Azcanta. It would just be the 4th Field Of Ruin anyway. It also helps overload the opponent's Fields in the control mirror, where the player with the most CA engines is at an advantage. And unlike Blood Fast, it's fine against anything pressuring your life total.
I think having less Fields contributes to you being overloaded by your opponent having 1 more. All things considered Azcanta will flip 5+ turns before any Arch possibly could. I'd have the 4 Fields just for their Fatal Push fun. lolurhydraded
Poisoner seems like a decent answer to Carnage Tyrants from B/G or BUG decks but I wouldn't trust it vs R/G, so if your meta players can afford Phoenixes; you need Doomfall(for their Tyrants) or the spicy Bontu's Last Reckoning
Treasure Map seems a must if you're going to run Arch
My thoughts on carnage tyrant: If (and this is a big IF) you want to primarily use doomfall for the edit effect, I think Vona's hunger is a much better card (instant speed and scales better as you accumulate land). Sacrificing a tyrant can even be a benefit over exiling as you can reanimate it.
EDIT: Ps, don't forget that commit can actually "counter" a carnage tyrant. Also, Bontu's last reckoning is a thing.
My thoughts on carnage tyrant: If (and this is a big IF) you want to primarily use doomfall for the edit effect, I think Vona's hunger is a much better card (instant speed and scales better as you accumulate land). Sacrificing a tyrant can even be a benefit over exiling as you can reanimate it.
EDIT: Ps, don't forget that commit can actually "counter" a carnage tyrant. Also, Bontu's last reckoning is a thing.
I keep switching between vona's hunger and doomfall. I kind of like doomfall better because it's just good all around. I see a few UBx midrange deck that plays doomfall main and I wonder if it's also a good main deck option for U/B control.
I agree doomfall is a good card, and for me it really boils down to how much you value the thoughtseize mode. In my personal play style, I don't, because I use thoughtseize effects mainly as a way to clear the path to landing a big threat (or making sure that if I tap out for a large threat my opponent won't have a good followup to punish my tap out). Paying 3 mana for this sort of thing is too much. I now some other players use thoughtseize effects as "removal" of sorts, but I never liked that plan, as it sets you behind in tempo. But its all about playstyle and the kind of play patterns your deck pushes you towards.
On the play, bring in Negate and whatever Moment Of Cravings are in SB. Also, any additional exile effects. Also, whatever anti-aggro creatures you have.
On the draw, bring in less Negate (I do 1 or 2 instead of 3), Moment of Craving, and exile effects. Also, whatever anti-aggro creatures you have.
Did anyone come up with a solid answer to Carnage Tyrant?
Commit + Field Of Ruin
Gifted Aetherborn
Nehazal, Primal Tide
The Scarab God + anything
Bontu's last Reckoning
Haven't lost to a Carnage Tyrant in ages.
Here's my problem.
1. Commit + Field of Ruin is just hoping to get really lucky imo.
2. Gifted Aetherborn (and Gonti) seem a bit weak against Sultai, which is the main deck that plays it that I'm concerned about.
3. The Scarab God often eats the Vraska's Contempts they boarded in and/or main decked. It's literally the only card most of them care to kill unless I'm already so far ahead.
4. I'm convinced Bontu's Last Reckoning is just bad.
In the cases of 1, 3 and 4, I'd rather just play multiple Doomfall. Otherwise, I end up having to wait and hope they do nothing to mess up my plan.
1. Commit + Field of Ruin is just hoping to get really lucky imo.
2. Gifted Aetherborn (and Gonti) seem a bit weak against Sultai, which is the main deck that plays it that I'm concerned about.
3. The Scarab God often eats the Vraska's Contempts they boarded in and/or main decked. It's literally the only card most of them care to kill unless I'm already so far ahead.
4. I'm convinced Bontu's Last Reckoning is just bad.
In the cases of 1, 3 and 4, I'd rather just play multiple Doomfall. Otherwise, I end up having to wait and hope they do nothing to mess up my plan.
Valid, but I think the combination of all of these has me covered. I like Doomfall in general, but I don't like it in today's meta. I'm trying to focus on instants and creatures for Gearhulk and TSG, respectively. Also, Doomfal failing to ANYTHING else being alive on board is a deal breaker, for THAT particular purpose. BTW, Bontu's is a 1 of in the board, IF I keep it in, I agree that it's bad, but it's a good last resort.
I haven´t played Standard in ages, but I´m considering picking this deck up, the straight UB Control list with lots of counters and God + Hulk as the only creatures. Could anyone please give me a rundown of its good and bad matchups? Does it have very swingy matchups, or are you in the game most of the time? How does the deck fare against UB Midrange? GR Monsters? Sultai Energy? Grixis Energy? Mono Red? UW Gift? UW Approach? GB Snake?
Thanks for any help, I searched for a bit and didn´t find anything, and I´d like to know a bit about this before I drop $300 on it.
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Honestly, my experience is that you're in the game until you're not. Sounds vague, I know, but I've had wins with UB against most decks, and then the next game I've been annihilated. For example, I played one game against Grixis Energy where he dropped two Siphoners. I had all blue spells, no removal. Died pretty quick. Next two matches were so one sided with me having all the answers all the time.
I think the biggest threats to this deck are Gift if you can't counter that (or the Gate), and Snake if they can go off quicker than you can respond. Really though, UB Control has historically preyed on green based decks. UB Mid can be a close one, as can Mono red, but with the amount of life gain main, that's not too one sided as it has been in the past.
It happens a little less with the current standard metagame, but there are some times issued with drawing the half of your deck even with all the draw spells and pseudo-scrying. Other than that, just had some games to get a feel for what are the real threats and how you should answer them. You have game with UB against everything except enchantment based stuff.
I haven´t played Standard in ages, but I´m considering picking this deck up, the straight UB Control list with lots of counters and God + Hulk as the only creatures. Could anyone please give me a rundown of its good and bad matchups? Does it have very swingy matchups, or are you in the game most of the time? How does the deck fare against UB Midrange? GR Monsters? Sultai Energy? Grixis Energy? Mono Red? UW Gift? UW Approach? GB Snake?
Thanks for any help, I searched for a bit and didn´t find anything, and I´d like to know a bit about this before I drop $300 on it.
To be brief, I feel it's good to great against everything except UW Cycling, and Vehicles. Play skill is key, as there is not a lot of room for error, unless your opponent is not having a great game, either.
I run 2 Blood Fast SB. I'm all about drawing cards lol.
This.
1)The interactive spells in grixis was extemely cheap (it was all 1 mana or 2 mana for removal, and 3 mana only for disallow), so it was really easy to interact+arch as soon as arch was on. With a glut of 4 mana removal spells + scarab god activations, the deck is really mana hungry. 6 mana for 1 card is too bad a rate.
2) It feels much more win-more in UB than scarabless grixis. If you are UB you presumably run scabby, wich means: (a) you already have at least 4 card advantage engines (2 azcanta, 2 scabs), one of which actually kills the opponent and (b) scarificing creatures to a flipped blood fast really helps to stabilize, and this is after you drew 4-6 cards, at 2 mana each. This is a much more efficient rate than the arch.
TL;DR: the moment you put scabs in your deck, it makes your deck mana hungry in a way that makes arch not good; also, in UB arguel draws at a better rate and has late game synergy with scabs.
My current list (9-3 over the past 3 FNMs)
1 Arch of Orazca
2 Field of Ruin
4 Aether Hub
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Fetid Pools
5 Island
6 Swamp
Enchantment (2)
2 Search for Azcanta
Creatures (7)
2 Dire Fleet Poisoner
2 The Scarab God
3 Torrential Gearhulk
4 Fatal Push
2 Essence Scatter
3 Moment of Craving
1 Negate
4 Disallow
1 Mastermind's Acquisition
3 Glimmer of Genius
2 Hieroglyphic Illumination
4 Vraska's Contempt
1 Commit // Memory
1 Treasure Map
1 Commit // Memory
3 Contraband Kingpin
1 Deadeye Tracker
2 Duress
1 Golden Demise
1 Essence Extraction
2 Negate
1 Lost Legacy
1 Nezahal, Primal Tide
1 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
While you make some good points, Arch has been amazing for me. It's an extra draw source that doesn't skip over your win cons like Azcanta. It would just be the 4th Field Of Ruin anyway. It also helps overload the opponent's Fields in the control mirror, where the player with the most CA engines is at an advantage. And unlike Blood Fast, it's fine against anything pressuring your life total.
Poisoner seems like a decent answer to Carnage Tyrants from B/G or BUG decks but I wouldn't trust it vs R/G, so if your meta players can afford Phoenixes; you need Doomfall(for their Tyrants) or the spicy Bontu's Last Reckoning
Treasure Map seems a must if you're going to run Arch
EDIT: Ps, don't forget that commit can actually "counter" a carnage tyrant. Also, Bontu's last reckoning is a thing.
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On the play, bring in Negate and whatever Moment Of Cravings are in SB. Also, any additional exile effects. Also, whatever anti-aggro creatures you have.
On the draw, bring in less Negate (I do 1 or 2 instead of 3), Moment of Craving, and exile effects. Also, whatever anti-aggro creatures you have.
Lower you curve, but leave in Torrential Gearhulk and The Scarab God (force them to deal with them, as well as card advantage).
I could go in depth with a decklist to go off of.
Doomfall, gonti, etc
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Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
Commit + Field Of Ruin
Gifted Aetherborn
Nehazal, Primal Tide
The Scarab God + anything
Bontu's last Reckoning
Haven't lost to a Carnage Tyrant in ages.
Here's my problem.
1. Commit + Field of Ruin is just hoping to get really lucky imo.
2. Gifted Aetherborn (and Gonti) seem a bit weak against Sultai, which is the main deck that plays it that I'm concerned about.
3. The Scarab God often eats the Vraska's Contempts they boarded in and/or main decked. It's literally the only card most of them care to kill unless I'm already so far ahead.
4. I'm convinced Bontu's Last Reckoning is just bad.
In the cases of 1, 3 and 4, I'd rather just play multiple Doomfall. Otherwise, I end up having to wait and hope they do nothing to mess up my plan.
Valid, but I think the combination of all of these has me covered. I like Doomfall in general, but I don't like it in today's meta. I'm trying to focus on instants and creatures for Gearhulk and TSG, respectively. Also, Doomfal failing to ANYTHING else being alive on board is a deal breaker, for THAT particular purpose. BTW, Bontu's is a 1 of in the board, IF I keep it in, I agree that it's bad, but it's a good last resort.
I haven´t played Standard in ages, but I´m considering picking this deck up, the straight UB Control list with lots of counters and God + Hulk as the only creatures. Could anyone please give me a rundown of its good and bad matchups? Does it have very swingy matchups, or are you in the game most of the time? How does the deck fare against UB Midrange? GR Monsters? Sultai Energy? Grixis Energy? Mono Red? UW Gift? UW Approach? GB Snake?
Thanks for any help, I searched for a bit and didn´t find anything, and I´d like to know a bit about this before I drop $300 on it.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
I think the biggest threats to this deck are Gift if you can't counter that (or the Gate), and Snake if they can go off quicker than you can respond. Really though, UB Control has historically preyed on green based decks. UB Mid can be a close one, as can Mono red, but with the amount of life gain main, that's not too one sided as it has been in the past.
To be brief, I feel it's good to great against everything except UW Cycling, and Vehicles. Play skill is key, as there is not a lot of room for error, unless your opponent is not having a great game, either.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'