Looks like I was right... Frank's run the numbers, and Daring Buccaneer needs 16 OTHER pirates (not including 4 Buccaneers) to hit 90% of the time on T1. Even Nevelo's list trying to keep Hazoret runs 11 others, which is only good for 80% on T1. Frank even says that "I felt I had to make too many sacrifices to fit in 16 other Pirates, the overall card quality fell short, and there wasn’t enough payoff for being so all-in on Pirates."
For those adding arch of orazca for card draw, how often do you actually expect to ascend with this deck, games are usually over by the time you reach 5-6 lands and if you already have 3 or 4 creatures out then you've probably either won or lost already. There is no time to be getting 10 permanents in play to be able to ascend so there's probably no cards with ascend that would fit into this deck.
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Ramunap Ruins adds a lot of "invisible power" to the deck, often acting as a virtual reduction to the opponent's starting life total. It also provides a high level of inevitability in matchups that go long, such as against the blue-black control decks popular at last year's World Championship (which have since fallen out of favor, in part because of this). Without Ramunap Ruins, the general play pattern of the deck remains largely the same, but the deck will lose some amount of the free win percentage that this land contributed.
not thoroughly convinced about their explanation, but acceptable. red aggro shouldn't have a free way of winning late game.
that Rampaging Ferocidon is banned is more troubling. what other card in Standard stops life gain as effectively? vampires and Approach decks would have a clear upper hand.
i guess it's really time to develop a turn 4 kill red deck, but i am having trouble making it.
Ramunap Ruins adds a lot of "invisible power" to the deck, often acting as a virtual reduction to the opponent's starting life total. It also provides a high level of inevitability in matchups that go long, such as against the blue-black control decks popular at last year's World Championship (which have since fallen out of favor, in part because of this). Without Ramunap Ruins, the general play pattern of the deck remains largely the same, but the deck will lose some amount of the free win percentage that this land contributed.
not thoroughly convinced about their explanation, but acceptable. red aggro shouldn't have a free way of winning late game.
that Rampaging Ferocidon is banned is more troubling. what other card in Standard stops life gain as effectively? vampires and Approach decks would have a clear upper hand.
i guess it's really time to develop a turn 4 kill red deck, but i am having trouble making it.
Honestly I was mad for about a minute. I’ve been testing deck with 4 Path of Mettle. I really like it. It flips turn 3 and it does the same thing ruins does except better. 2 damage to creature or opponent and for 3 mana. Large creature removal for 4 mana. I run 4 vantage and 4 shefnet dunes as white sources. I run fanatical firebrand and bomat as my one drops. Plus I think that with Temur being ripped apart vampires and pirates and Merfolk will be a thing. Path clears their board. Path also kills any attacking creature. I planned on running it before the ban. Now it has to replace ramunap ruins
When playtesting, even when I had the ruins out I’d never use it. With path you can use it as early as turn 4 and drop a two drop or kill spell. With ruins you had to take a whole turn off. I really like this card. Especially that we have a way to kill bigger creatures. 4 inspiring vantage instead of ramunap ruins and 4 shefnet dunes instead of sunscorched desert. This way we have the same amount of red sources we had but we add 8 white sources. I even like relentless raptor. Losing our only anti life gain card does suck though
Ramunap Ruins adds a lot of "invisible power" to the deck, often acting as a virtual reduction to the opponent's starting life total. It also provides a high level of inevitability in matchups that go long, such as against the blue-black control decks popular at last year's World Championship (which have since fallen out of favor, in part because of this). Without Ramunap Ruins, the general play pattern of the deck remains largely the same, but the deck will lose some amount of the free win percentage that this land contributed.
not thoroughly convinced about their explanation, but acceptable. red aggro shouldn't have a free way of winning late game.
that Rampaging Ferocidon is banned is more troubling. what other card in Standard stops life gain as effectively? vampires and Approach decks would have a clear upper hand.
i guess it's really time to develop a turn 4 kill red deck, but i am having trouble making it.
Honestly I was mad for about a minute. I’ve been testing deck with 4 Path of Mettle. I really like it. It flips turn 3 and it does the same thing ruins does except better. 2 damage to creature or opponent and for 3 mana. Large creature removal for 4 mana. I run 4 vantage and 4 shefnet dunes as white sources. I run fanatical firebrand and bomat as my one drops. Plus I think that with Temur being ripped apart vampires and pirates and Merfolk will be a thing. Path clears their board. Path also kills any attacking creature. I planned on running it before the ban. Now it has to replace ramunap ruins
i think Path of Mettle is a sleeper card. it just seems too good not to use. it's aggressively costed, can cause asymetric board wipe, and can do versatile things later on.
i'll buy a set if my LGS will sell them at a reasonable price.
one problem i see with it is that IF dinosaurs become commonplace, then its damage is actually detrimental if it triggers opponent's Enrage.
They said Rampaging Ferocidon was made to combat the Saheeli Rai combo. That’s funny bc they said they didn’t see the combo and cards are made well in advance. I think it’s ridiculous
Haven't got a sideboard yet, but here's the main deck idea I've been leaning towards. Firebrand goes in for the haste, and Smash gets the nod as a 1-drop combat trick rather than Fervor (sorcery speed) or Rampage (2-drop). Harnessed Lightning is there over Abrade as it still scales nicely - playing it on curve to take out an X/2, then playing a second later to take out an X/4 unexpectedly is quite nice...
As for Path, according to Frank Karsten's article on colored sources, you'd need 12 of each color to be able to consistently cast it on T3. Whether it's good enough remains to be seen, because, unlike Ramunap, you have to take a turn off to cast it... Hasn't stopped me pre-ordering 4 though.
T1: Bomat Courier, attack, down to 19
T2: Earthshaker Khenra, attack all, down to 16
T3: Sunscorched Desert (down to 15), Ahn Crop Crasher, attack all, down to 9
T4: attack all (down to 3), Lightning Strike, GG sir
now, of course, that's goldfishing, but that's the potential of the deck. even if the opponent interacts, the deck gets delayed just a few more turns. with an aggressive start, combat tricks and burn, i am hoping it would be consistent enough to be competitive.
Going low is probably the best way. Though, Path of Mettle does look pretty interesting. Being able to cut the colorless deserts makes it a bit easier to get the white source count where it would need to be. I'm thinking along the lines of the below:
Everything has Haste or First Strike or in the case of Soul-Scar enough toughness to survive the Path of Mettle damage. In fact, Soul-Scar gives the otherwise marginal trigger a bit more lasting effects, turning the damage into -1/-1 counters.
Manabase might be a bit shaky with Aether Hub, but I remember the Red Black Copter decks would run a somewhat similar setup.
huh. i never thought about Path of Mettle's synergy with Soul-Scar Mage. nice catch there.
i do think, however, that path of Mettle is better for more midrangey decks (that top the curve with Glorybringer) as a way to grind out games.
I’ve been watching a lot of playtesting and the life gain is insane. A lot of 1/1s and 2/1 creatures and 1/1 tokens. I really like Path even more. Wipes the board and turns into ramp and a burn spell. On turn 3 we drop path, attack with two creatures. It flips and we can play a two drop. Plus on turn 3 it can be a one sided boardwipe against Aggro and tokens. 4 inspiring vantage, 4 shefnet dunes and 2 Aether Hub seems like a good start. This way we’re really not losing any of the red sources we used to have. But honestly, there is so much life gain it’s going to hurt if we don’t win by turn 4. It feels like the emrakul days when there was no graveyard hate.
It's often a t3 play that wipes occasional blockers, and search for tomorrows into Lightning Strike or relentless raptor mana. Subsequently, it makes attacking with one creature miserable -- they can't split the different with blocking/attacking as many decks do as they try and turn the corner from your fast start.
Ordered mine from eBay already, but I won't get them for a week or so, I'll try to test the deck without it as it is and once I get them I'll fit them in.
With the path the deck looks to be hyper aggressive after turn 2 or 3 and put a lot of pressure on the opponent for the rest of the game.
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This is where I'm at currently. Not sure on my Instants package but I've always been happy with Abrade, you get to clean up so much random garbage in certain matches, Treasure Map sticks out as a big one.
Huatli has tested VERY well, either turning off your opponents blockers for an alpha strike or churning out 3/3s forever.
I chose not to run Shefet Dunes despite them being "free" because I NEVER found myself with the combination of:
-Two white sources plus a Dunes
-Not having Metzali, Tower of Triumph
-Not having anything else to do with my mana.
I tend to agree that the Dunes seems unnecessary if not a bit harmful because of the damage. Though I'd probably still want more white sources in your list. Hubs or just straight Plains.
This the update to the Dinos Vehicles deck that I posted on the page 8. This deck is vicious once it gets going, it has a lot of answers built in for the early game and the late game.
This deck runs 11 two drop creatures and 4 three-drop creatures as well as a lot of cheap spells so it can come out very fast and hit the opponent hard. It can also ramp into a lot of mana with the dowsing dagger on a flying creature and then it can drop a big dino early or a planeswalker and go to town.
I am waiting to the Path of Mettles from my Ebay order so I am assuming I will be playing 2 of them main deck but after testing maybe I will run 3 of them. I don't have enough creatures that turn them on, I only have 10 creatures that have those abilities.
I run 4 Aether Hubs because I also run 3 'Aether chaser so I can get extra energy from them and I really do need 1 white and 1 red on the second turn, as well as 2 of each mana on the 4th turn. Also the Aether chasers have first strike so they can turn on Path if I got 2 out, or one out and a kari zev, or one and a Hazoret or relentless raptor.
The sideboard is a mess so I just put some cards in there that I may want to play, I have to see how the metagame at my LGS is shaping out this month after the bannings and then I'll change some cards in the sideboard.
Is there a deck where we can abuse Azor's Gateway? Run mono red aggro, featuring Cut // Ribbons, use Gateway as a drawing engine, aim to flip ASAP, and then tap it (as the only source) to add a bazillion Black mana to play a potentially lethal Ribbons?
EDIT: This post is referring to the 5-0 decklist Nevelo posted. Not sure why it didn't quote the post.
Made a few changes to this for FNM, 3-1. Took the Daredevil out of the main, cut a Hazoret and a Firebrand for 3 Soul-Scar Mage. Also cut a Dunes for just another plains. My one loss was to some obnoxious grixis build (it was removal + 1 torrential gearhulk), though I was viciously land screwed. In fact, I had to mulligan quite a bit due to a single land in the opener. Thinking of adding another land and going up to the fourth Mage, he's just too cool with Mettle.
Also thinking of turning the Glorybringers to Phoenixes, maybe? Five is just steep. Three Daredevils in the side overperformed against monoblack. Hit a push or plank every time I cast one. Not sure about Raptors yet, so I might try this creature set:
Path to Mettle is absolutely nuts. Had my monoblack opponent sitting on a Scrapheap Scrounger and an Aethersphere Harvester. Good luck attacking me! Closed at least two games by activating Metzali for 2 damage, play another Mettle, flip on attacks and immediately activate it for another 2.
My true dream is big red with Immortal Sun, but this'll do for now.
This is where I'm at currently. Not sure on my Instants package but I've always been happy with Abrade, you get to clean up so much random garbage in certain matches, Treasure Map sticks out as a big one.
Huatli has tested VERY well, either turning off your opponents blockers for an alpha strike or churning out 3/3s forever.
I chose not to run Shefet Dunes despite them being "free" because I NEVER found myself with the combination of:
-Two white sources plus a Dunes
-Not having Metzali, Tower of Triumph
-Not having anything else to do with my mana.
THIS list is close to what I'm getting into as well. Minor things are different, but I think yours is slightly "midrangier", which is also better.
I run 2 copies of Dire Fleet Daredevil, 4 copies of Lightning Strike over Abrade, and I really think that Huatli might payoff here. My main strategy was to flip Path of Mettle as soon as possible, but I think this is wrong. You don't have to do it ASAP, but instead, when you can. I also run 2 copied of Chandra, ToD and 3 copies of Soul-scar Mage because I feel that its interaction is very good with Path of Mettle (putting a -1/-1 counter in each creature seems awesome). CHandra seems OK, but Huatli might pay off better. We'll see.
You're also right about Shefet Dunes. I've rarely used them, so I think you could cut it to 2 copies only if not 0.
I am starting to cut some copies of DFD, slotting in SSM. Testing is slow because I play in paper and don't have a huge scene for standard.
I do find this playing midrangy and I think that's the direction I want to take it, possibly moving away from Firebrand, but I don't know what replaces him.
Agreed, I don't like tunnel-visioning on flipping PoM ASAP, almost always playing an Ahn-crop Crasher on 3, or Daredevil + their one drop spell.
To reiterate: I've been crazy impressed with Huatli and I'm considering a second copy.
2 Dunes might be correct, I found a playset to be too detrimental and just scrapped the idea. To a degree, I think Huatli fills a similar role.
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Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
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Mtg Lifestyle
Attune with Aether
Rogue Refiner
Rampaging Ferocidon
Ramunap Ruins
UH, I thought Ramunap Ruins was appropriately costed, WTH?
Source.
not thoroughly convinced about their explanation, but acceptable. red aggro shouldn't have a free way of winning late game.
that Rampaging Ferocidon is banned is more troubling. what other card in Standard stops life gain as effectively? vampires and Approach decks would have a clear upper hand.
i guess it's really time to develop a turn 4 kill red deck, but i am having trouble making it.
Honestly I was mad for about a minute. I’ve been testing deck with 4 Path of Mettle. I really like it. It flips turn 3 and it does the same thing ruins does except better. 2 damage to creature or opponent and for 3 mana. Large creature removal for 4 mana. I run 4 vantage and 4 shefnet dunes as white sources. I run fanatical firebrand and bomat as my one drops. Plus I think that with Temur being ripped apart vampires and pirates and Merfolk will be a thing. Path clears their board. Path also kills any attacking creature. I planned on running it before the ban. Now it has to replace ramunap ruins
i think Path of Mettle is a sleeper card. it just seems too good not to use. it's aggressively costed, can cause asymetric board wipe, and can do versatile things later on.
i'll buy a set if my LGS will sell them at a reasonable price.
one problem i see with it is that IF dinosaurs become commonplace, then its damage is actually detrimental if it triggers opponent's Enrage.
4 Bomat Courier
4 Fanatical Firebrand
4 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Earthshaker Khenra
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
3 Ahn-Crop Crasher
3 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Shock
4 Built to Smash
4 Harnessed Lightning
4 Lightning Strike
2 Arch of Orazca
4 Sunscorched Desert
16 Mountain
4 Bomat Courier
4 Fanatical Firebrand
4 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Earthshaker Khenra
4 Speedway Fanatic
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
4 Built to Smash
3 Invigorated Rampage
4 Lightning Strike
4 Shock
17 Mountain
4 Sunscorched Desert
This deck aims for a Turn 4 kill
T1: Bomat Courier, attack, down to 19
T2: Earthshaker Khenra, attack all, down to 16
T3: Sunscorched Desert (down to 15), Ahn Crop Crasher, attack all, down to 9
T4: attack all (down to 3), Lightning Strike, GG sir
now, of course, that's goldfishing, but that's the potential of the deck. even if the opponent interacts, the deck gets delayed just a few more turns. with an aggressive start, combat tricks and burn, i am hoping it would be consistent enough to be competitive.
what do you guys think?
4 Bomat Courier
4 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Dire Fleet Daredevil
4 Earthshaker Khenra
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
3 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Shock
1 Abrade
4 Lightning Strike
4 Path of Mettle
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Aether Hub
11 Mountain
4 Plains
Everything has Haste or First Strike or in the case of Soul-Scar enough toughness to survive the Path of Mettle damage. In fact, Soul-Scar gives the otherwise marginal trigger a bit more lasting effects, turning the damage into -1/-1 counters.
Manabase might be a bit shaky with Aether Hub, but I remember the Red Black Copter decks would run a somewhat similar setup.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
i do think, however, that path of Mettle is better for more midrangey decks (that top the curve with Glorybringer) as a way to grind out games.
I’ve been watching a lot of playtesting and the life gain is insane. A lot of 1/1s and 2/1 creatures and 1/1 tokens. I really like Path even more. Wipes the board and turns into ramp and a burn spell. On turn 3 we drop path, attack with two creatures. It flips and we can play a two drop. Plus on turn 3 it can be a one sided boardwipe against Aggro and tokens. 4 inspiring vantage, 4 shefnet dunes and 2 Aether Hub seems like a good start. This way we’re really not losing any of the red sources we used to have. But honestly, there is so much life gain it’s going to hurt if we don’t win by turn 4. It feels like the emrakul days when there was no graveyard hate.
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Creature (25)
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
4 Bomat Courier
1 Dire Fleet Daredevil
4 Earthshaker Khenra
4 Fanatical Firebrand
3 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
3 Relentless Raptor
4 Lightning Strike
4 Shock
Enchantment (3)
3 Path of Mettle
Land (22)
4 Inspiring Vantage
11 Mountain
4 Plains
3 Shefet Dunes
3 Dire Fleet Daredevil
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Abrade
3 Glorybringer
2 Ixalan's Binding
2 Slaughter the Strong
1 Sunscourge Champion
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Played a bit with this.
Path of Mettle confirmed bonkers.
Very happy to play it.
It's often a t3 play that wipes occasional blockers, and search for tomorrows into Lightning Strike or relentless raptor mana. Subsequently, it makes attacking with one creature miserable -- they can't split the different with blocking/attacking as many decks do as they try and turn the corner from your fast start.
i hope i'll be able to buy a set later.
Ordered mine from eBay already, but I won't get them for a week or so, I'll try to test the deck without it as it is and once I get them I'll fit them in.
With the path the deck looks to be hyper aggressive after turn 2 or 3 and put a lot of pressure on the opponent for the rest of the game.
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Mtg Lifestyle
4 Bomat Courier
4 Fanatical Firebrand
4 Dire Fleet Daredevil
4 Earthshaker Khenra
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
3 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Shock
4 Abrade
Enchantment (3)
3 Path of Mettle
Planeswalker (1)
1 Huatli, Warrior Poet
Land (23)
4 Inspiring Vantage
14 Mountain
5 Plains
1 Plains
2 Silent Gravestone
1 Fragmentize
2 Pia Nalaar
2 Ixalan's Binding
2 Dusk/Dawn
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Glorybringer
This is where I'm at currently. Not sure on my Instants package but I've always been happy with Abrade, you get to clean up so much random garbage in certain matches, Treasure Map sticks out as a big one.
Huatli has tested VERY well, either turning off your opponents blockers for an alpha strike or churning out 3/3s forever.
I chose not to run Shefet Dunes despite them being "free" because I NEVER found myself with the combination of:
-Two white sources plus a Dunes
-Not having Metzali, Tower of Triumph
-Not having anything else to do with my mana.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Aether Hub
2 Stone Quarry
6 Plains
7 Mountains
Artifacts (5)
3 Dowsing Dagger
2 Aethersphere Harvester
Enchantments (2)
2 Path of Mettle
Spells (7)
4 Magma Spray
3 Cut // Ribbons
2 Huatli, Warrior Poet
Creatures (22)
3 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Burning Sun's Avatar
2 Wakening Sun's Avatar
2 Relentless Raptor
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
3 Aether Chaser
4 Kinjalli's Sunwing
4 Sky Terror
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Cast Out
2 Abrade
2 Hour of Devastation
2 Sweltering Suns
2 Repeating Barrage
2 God-Pharaoh's Gift
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
This deck runs 11 two drop creatures and 4 three-drop creatures as well as a lot of cheap spells so it can come out very fast and hit the opponent hard. It can also ramp into a lot of mana with the dowsing dagger on a flying creature and then it can drop a big dino early or a planeswalker and go to town.
I am waiting to the Path of Mettles from my Ebay order so I am assuming I will be playing 2 of them main deck but after testing maybe I will run 3 of them. I don't have enough creatures that turn them on, I only have 10 creatures that have those abilities.
I run 4 Aether Hubs because I also run 3 'Aether chaser so I can get extra energy from them and I really do need 1 white and 1 red on the second turn, as well as 2 of each mana on the 4th turn. Also the Aether chasers have first strike so they can turn on Path if I got 2 out, or one out and a kari zev, or one and a Hazoret or relentless raptor.
The sideboard is a mess so I just put some cards in there that I may want to play, I have to see how the metagame at my LGS is shaping out this month after the bannings and then I'll change some cards in the sideboard.
Check out my Youtube channel where I upload MTG content videos twice a week!
Mtg Lifestyle
Made a few changes to this for FNM, 3-1. Took the Daredevil out of the main, cut a Hazoret and a Firebrand for 3 Soul-Scar Mage. Also cut a Dunes for just another plains. My one loss was to some obnoxious grixis build (it was removal + 1 torrential gearhulk), though I was viciously land screwed. In fact, I had to mulligan quite a bit due to a single land in the opener. Thinking of adding another land and going up to the fourth Mage, he's just too cool with Mettle.
Also thinking of turning the Glorybringers to Phoenixes, maybe? Five is just steep. Three Daredevils in the side overperformed against monoblack. Hit a push or plank every time I cast one. Not sure about Raptors yet, so I might try this creature set:
Path to Mettle is absolutely nuts. Had my monoblack opponent sitting on a Scrapheap Scrounger and an Aethersphere Harvester. Good luck attacking me! Closed at least two games by activating Metzali for 2 damage, play another Mettle, flip on attacks and immediately activate it for another 2.
My true dream is big red with Immortal Sun, but this'll do for now.
THIS list is close to what I'm getting into as well. Minor things are different, but I think yours is slightly "midrangier", which is also better.
I run 2 copies of Dire Fleet Daredevil, 4 copies of Lightning Strike over Abrade, and I really think that Huatli might payoff here. My main strategy was to flip Path of Mettle as soon as possible, but I think this is wrong. You don't have to do it ASAP, but instead, when you can. I also run 2 copied of Chandra, ToD and 3 copies of Soul-scar Mage because I feel that its interaction is very good with Path of Mettle (putting a -1/-1 counter in each creature seems awesome). CHandra seems OK, but Huatli might pay off better. We'll see.
You're also right about Shefet Dunes. I've rarely used them, so I think you could cut it to 2 copies only if not 0.
I do find this playing midrangy and I think that's the direction I want to take it, possibly moving away from Firebrand, but I don't know what replaces him.
Agreed, I don't like tunnel-visioning on flipping PoM ASAP, almost always playing an Ahn-crop Crasher on 3, or Daredevil + their one drop spell.
To reiterate: I've been crazy impressed with Huatli and I'm considering a second copy.
2 Dunes might be correct, I found a playset to be too detrimental and just scrapped the idea. To a degree, I think Huatli fills a similar role.