Also, he's totally right about the third Scavenger and, honestly, I think if you aren't playing Vraska you aren't playing the deck correctly. I don't mean to sound obnoxious and apologise if I come across that way. Vraska is expensive, but so worthwhile. We have no MD outs to annoying enchantments and artifacts and Vraska gives us this in spades while not diluting the threats in our deck. If you totally stall out and can't brak through the wall, at least you can go for the ult + a ping from a Ballista ftw. That's not the main value though as it's very corner case. Killing GPG, or a 6/6 angel and creating a stream of blockers for the big Hydra on the other side of the table is just too valuable.
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
Good points, thanks. I have very little aggro around me - last week I recall only 1 ram red, and the only other was vampire monument. It's heavily weighted to midrange and control so I think Nissa can stay main. I totally appreciate the Vraska sentiment - me using her depends on my other family members not, and right now they are spoken for.
Re: Scavenger, I will see if one is available. And on Blossoming, with such a skew to slower and more removal heavy decks against me, is a reduced number a good idea?
You know your meta better than I. Last night I played 3 matches: 2 UW Gift and RW Approach. Barring a few Abrades, they would have been dead cards for me. Settle and Fumigate don't care.
Also, he's totally right about the third Scavenger and, honestly, I think if you aren't playing Vraska you aren't playing the deck correctly. I don't mean to sound obnoxious and apologise if I come across that way. Vraska is expensive, but so worthwhile. We have no MD outs to annoying enchantments and artifacts and Vraska gives us this in spades while not diluting the threats in our deck. If you totally stall out and can't brak through the wall, at least you can go for the ult + a ping from a Ballista ftw. That's not the main value though as it's very corner case. Killing GPG, or a 6/6 angel and creating a stream of blockers for the big Hydra on the other side of the table is just too valuable.
This sounds wrong to me.
If you're relying on Vraska to break random enchantments and artifacts, I feel like you're probably playing the deck wrong. The only time I've seen Vraska swing a board is when both players have stalled out. In that case, Bristling Hydra, Walking Ballista or the Scarab God are just as good. Our match against UW GPG is really positive for Sultai if you're running Hostage Takers. I've literally killed them in a myriad of ways: By running them out of threats, taking their GPG or eating everything with Deathgorge Scavenger. The best place I've seen Vraska used is in the Sultai Energy mirror, and I'd just rather not. It's definitely not that good against base Temur. I also question how good it is against Temur Black.
You know your meta better than I. Last night I played 3 matches: 2 UW Gift and RW Approach. Barring a few Abrades, they would have been dead cards for me. Settle and Fumigate don't care.
That’s why I’m asking. My fear, especially with Kitesails coming in, is that I’ll get blown out by Cast Out or Ixalan’s Binding. I’m tempted to 3/1 the BDefs with a Heroic Intervention: won’t help against Settle but at least saves my team from Fumigate.
I don’t want to dilute the main plan but at the same time if I can hedge against what I expect to see I think there is value in my that. My problem is that I don’t always know when to stop!
You know your meta better than I. Last night I played 3 matches: 2 UW Gift and RW Approach. Barring a few Abrades, they would have been dead cards for me. Settle and Fumigate don't care.
That’s why I’m asking. My fear, especially with Kitesails coming in, is that I’ll get blown out by Cast Out or Ixalan’s Binding. I’m tempted to 3/1 the BDefs with a Heroic Intervention: won’t help against Settle but at least saves my team from Fumigate.
I don’t want to dilute the main plan but at the same time if I can hedge against what I expect to see I think there is value in my that. My problem is that I don’t always know when to stop!
Actually, you're right. I lied. I did face an Ixalan's Binding and an Angel of Sanctions also. But they just didn't matter very much. To be fair, these players may have been worse than your best PPTQ players and hadn't played against something with the explosiveness of the dinosaur deck I was playing.
Still, I am concerned that you will have hands with more dead cards than you want. Hostage Taker is kind of a 3-for-1 and an unbelievable tempo swing, but dies pretty easily. The payoff makes 4 Blossoming Defense worthwhile. You aren't running Hostage Takers, though. So, in your shoes, I would cut back on the Defense.
But it is just free advice, barely worth what you paid for it. Think about it, change your deck or don't. Please let us know what you figure out in your post mortem. I am super interested in what you think afterwards. I am super uninterested in convincing you of anything. You are the expert in your deck and meta. You have to live with the consequences. I just want to present ideas for you to evaluate and learn from your experience.
Of the sideboard cards, the only one I'm really not sure of is Deathgorge Scavenger, simply because graveyard strategies seem to be the only decks to bring it in against. Am I mistaken there? As in, should I be bringing it in vs other decks and if so, what would come out that isn't already coming out? I spose they could come in against control because of Gearhulk silliness...
Thanks for your insights!
I'd like to respond to your comment about Scavenger. In fact, I'm considering it as a one off main for an opcomming tournament (will report afterwards) with another two in the side. Thing is, I can't decide what to take out.
The card is very good in most matches. Gaining you life against aggro and targeted removal and keeping various decks that abuse the graveyard in check like GPG, control, scarab gods and grow lists. All while putting preasure on the opponents life total and has a gigantic target on its back. It's just that versatile.
Only ceveat, it's not very synergistic and would take a very synergistic card to be taken out.
Of the sideboard cards, the only one I'm really not sure of is Deathgorge Scavenger, simply because graveyard strategies seem to be the only decks to bring it in against. Am I mistaken there? As in, should I be bringing it in vs other decks and if so, what would come out that isn't already coming out? I spose they could come in against control because of Gearhulk silliness...
Thanks for your insights!
I'd like to respond to your comment about Scavenger. In fact, I'm considering it as a one off main for an opcomming tuurnament (will report afterwards) with another two in the side. Thing is, I can't decide what to take out.
The card is very good in most matches. Gaining you life against aggro and targeted removal and keeping various decks that abuse the graveyard in check like GPG, control, scarab gods and grow lists. All while putting preasure on the opponents life total and has a gigantic target on its back. It's just that versatile.
Only ceveat, it's not very synergystic and would take a very synergistic card to be taken out.
Being a 3-drop, you want to take out one of your lower end cards. You could consider cutting a Rogue Refiner, since it's a one-shot energy card. If you're less concerned about aggro, you could drop a Walking Ballista.
Actually, you're right. I lied. I did face an Ixalan's Binding and an Angel of Sanctions also. But they just didn't matter very much. To be fair, these players may have been worse than your best PPTQ players and hadn't played against something with the explosiveness of the dinosaur deck I was playing.
Still, I am concerned that you will have hands with more dead cards than you want. Hostage Taker is kind of a 3-for-1 and an unbelievable tempo swing, but dies pretty easily. The payoff makes 4 Blossoming Defense worthwhile. You aren't running Hostage Takers, though. So, in your shoes, I would cut back on the Defense.
But it is just free advice, barely worth what you paid for it. Think about it, change your deck or don't. Please let us know what you figure out in your post mortem. I am super interested in what you think afterwards. I am super uninterested in convincing you of anything. You are the expert in your deck and meta. You have to live with the consequences. I just want to present ideas for you to evaluate and learn from your experience.
Totally fair and appreciated.
I come here with theory-crafted lists and ideas because I don't have much (or consistent) time to play. I lean heavily on the advice you guys all present, and ask questions usually because I don't have the experience in the meta to really see the nuances of different opposing decks. If I come across as doubting the advice that's on my delivery - it's not intended that way.
Anyway, I am making adjustments accounting for all that's said in the thread and will report what happens on the weekend.
Of the sideboard cards, the only one I'm really not sure of is Deathgorge Scavenger, simply because graveyard strategies seem to be the only decks to bring it in against. Am I mistaken there? As in, should I be bringing it in vs other decks and if so, what would come out that isn't already coming out? I spose they could come in against control because of Gearhulk silliness...
Thanks for your insights!
I'd like to respond to your comment about Scavenger. In fact, I'm considering it as a one off main for an opcomming tuurnament (will report afterwards) with another two in the side. Thing is, I can't decide what to take out.
The card is very good in most matches. Gaining you life against aggro and targeted removal and keeping various decks that abuse the graveyard in check like GPG, control, scarab gods and grow lists. All while putting preasure on the opponents life total and has a gigantic target on its back. It's just that versatile.
Only ceveat, it's not very synergystic and would take a very synergistic card to be taken out.
Being a 3-drop, you want to take out one of your lower end cards. You could consider cutting a Rogue Refiner, since it's a one-shot energy card. If you're less concerned about aggro, you could drop a Walking Ballista.
That's the thing right there, I'm having difficulties cutting any refiners or rishkars for that matter as I consider them to be core elements to the deck.
Refiner is mush more than a one shot energy card. It's a roadblock or extra attacker while replacing itself and is another great T3 play after Cub.
I allready play a version where I favour 3 Hydra's over 3 Ballista's.
I guess I can live with one less Siphoner but have no options left to test.
There is the option to drop the blue, bring back the green hulks as curve toppers and replace rogue refiners with more Rishkar and/or Raptors. I saw that such a deck was once again appearing on MTGO.
I’m tempted mainly because it would presumably help reduce the volume of mulligans this deck faces.
My last two PPTQs with Sultai Energy have been blighted by unkeepable draws and then land floods or draughts. Part of the game I know but one would hope greater consistency would accompany a return to two colours.
@SmauG - I looked back a few pages and didn't see a list for you, so I don't really know what to suggest. Seth cut the fourth Ballista and that's been widely adopted. I'm on a single Rishkar because I figure the second is worse than the first. Siphoner, the third Ballista, Refiner all seem reasonable. Push is another situational card that I like to shave when I don't expect to face a lot of Aggro.
In my dino deck I maindecked 4 Deathgorge on Monday. With two out of three matches against Gift it seemed brilliant but it was really driven by a lack of good 3 drops that could crew a Heart. In this deck, I prefer maxing synergy game 1, so I would pull a Siphoner if I expected Aggro and Push if I expected Combo or control.
I'd like to respond to your comment about Scavenger. In fact, I'm considering it as a one off main for an opcomming tuurnament (will report afterwards) with another two in the side. Thing is, I can't decide what to take out.
The card is very good in most matches. Gaining you life against aggro and targeted removal and keeping various decks that abuse the graveyard in check like GPG, control, scarab gods and grow lists. All while putting preasure on the opponents life total and has a gigantic target on its back. It's just that versatile.
Only ceveat, it's not very synergystic and would take a very synergistic card to be taken out.
Being a 3-drop, you want to take out one of your lower end cards. You could consider cutting a Rogue Refiner, since it's a one-shot energy card. If you're less concerned about aggro, you could drop a Walking Ballista.
That's the thing right there, I'm having difficulties cutting any refiners or rishkars for that matter as I consider them to be core elements to the deck.
Refiner is mush more than a one shot energy card. It's a roadblock or extra attacker while replacing itself and is another great T3 play after Cub.
I allready play a version where I favour 3 Hydra's over 3 Ballista's.
I guess I can live with one less Siphoner but have no options left to test.
I know the value of Rogue Refiner, but if you read about Seth Manfield and his sideboarding plan, he had been advised by his team that on certain match-ups, he was to board out all four. Why? While Refiner has a function in the deck, other cards can just be better in certain match-ups. This is not a discussion regarding the value of Refiner, but rather, the value of Refiner as compared to Deathgorge Scavenger in your specific meta (and to a degree the meta at large). Side by side comparison, Refiner provides more synergy and card advantage, but Scavenger provides better aggro, life gain, and helps mitigate certain strategies. If you're worried about GPG, you'd rather be packing 4 Scavengers over 4 Refiners. Same goes for virtually any aggro match-up, as the life gain can be huge. If you're going up against mid-range, they're both good, but Refiner is arguably better because of the synergy factor.
I have argued in the past, and it's still true, that this is a synergy deck. Scavenger is a SB card to me because its not synergistic. G1 should be all about our synergy. But, if your meta is full of certain match-ups where other cards (like Scavenger) significantly improve your G1 percent win, then by all means, find what you consider to be the weak link in your deck, synergy-wise, and replace it. You'll have to live with your changes, not me, so be sure to take my words with a grain of salt.
@hoser2: correct, I haven't posted a list yet. I'm on a mobile phone and tagging/editting is a nightmare. Sorry for that.
I'll report what I take with me on a computer asap and will get back to it with results. For now i'm giving a maindeck Scavenger another night of thought.
So I've discovered that I have both a small and wildly random meta. Top two lists this afternoon were Esper Spells and Mardu Vehicles. For established meta decks, aside from me there was one other Sultai, a 4C energy that dropped after round 2, and an Approach/mill hybrid. Plus a bunch of totally off meta lists.
I lost all matches 1-2, facing Mardu, mirror and vampire aggro. Very demoralizing to say the least. And given that I'm not seeing much of anything planned for, I feel like I will need to make a lot of adjustments that won't contribute much to the larger discussion for those with more stable/predictable metas. Stepping back into mostly observer mode for a while. I'll likely be spending most of my time in Deck Creation perusing the offbeat stuff.
So I played at a small locally organized tournament yesterday and I promised to write a report.
First time i seriously took notes on the games so I could reflect.
Long story short: I took this deck to a 4-1 finish and endend 1st place!
I was seriously contemplating whether or not to put a Deathgorge Scavenger in the maindeck, but ultimately decided not to. I did board them in in most matchups, but the cards I took out were differed troughout the evening.
I played 4 rounds, followed by a final round (5 rounds total). I knew some decks I would face so I loaded up some slots to help me beat those.
Round 1: Temur Miracle Grow (2-0)
Game one: His deck does what his deck does and builds up to two big threats, one of them a 6/4 flying Enigma Drake. Game is pretty tight, but my two Bristling Hydra's could swing for lethal, forcing him to block with both his big guys. He has mana open and so have I. I also have a Blossoming Defense in hand. We trade some spells and I lose a Hydra, But manage to take the Enigma Drake with me. I'm at 10 life, and he can swing for 9 maximum. My game!
Game two: I push hist first Deeproot Champion, his second lives. My Deathgorge Scavenger survives long enough for me to stabilize and keep a potential flyer small. I draw more gas and he just scoops to alot of land draws in a row, he says he only plays 17 land. Win! 1-0 Out: 2 Rishkar, Peema Renegade, 1 Rogue Refiner In: 3 Deathgorge Scavenger
Round 3: U/B Control (2-1)
Game one: Grindy matchup for sure. Eventually a Glint-Sleeve Siphoner attacks past his blocker and keeps the cards comming. Bristling Hydra doesn't get countered and Seals the deal. He didn't dug into his finishers.
Game two: I land an early Nissa, Steward of Elements and scry away 6! cards before finding Attune with Aether and Bristling Hydra He pings her one per turn with his Kitesail Freebooter But I manage to get high enough to land Bristling Hydra and try to go for the kill two turns later with Nissa's ultimate. Missplayed there, to greedy. One land gets pushed and the other get's blocked. The Hydra alone wasn't enough. Everything else I do gets countered and a few turns later, Torrential Gearhulk get's me down.
Game three: A few counterspells into the game I eventually land my Prowling Serpopard. I manage to attack with hit a few times, and an attempt to remove with Vraska's Contempt gets countered with Blossoming Defense which I was keeping for Hostage Taker for one of his finishers. The turn thereafter, He takes my Prowling Serpopard hostage and casts it immediately. He is tapped out, and the next turn I respond with the exact same move. Pretty Hilarious. Two Longtusk Cubs are enough to take the match! His God came a turn to late. Win. 2-1 Out: 1 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, 1 Rogue Refiner, 2 Rishkar, Peema Renegade In: 2 Prowling Serpopard, 2 Nissa, Steward of Elements
Round 4 B/W Zombie-Mummies (2-0)
Game one: He managed to get trough a few swings until I push his more controlling Binding Mummy From there I just focused on the beat down. By far the easiest game so far.
Game Two: He opens with Duress But I hit the nut again, This time with two Attune With Aether in hand. He takes one, probably a mistake. Swung a 6 power Longtusk Cub on turn three and goining upwards. Eventually ending at 10/10 with a Blossoming Defense still in hand. Win 3-1 Out: 1 Rishkar. Peema Renegade, 1 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner In: 2 Deathgorge Scavenger
In hindsight, I'm happy I kept my deck the way I put it together in the first place, with the 3 Deathgorge Scavengers in the side. All matches demanded a somewhat different approach. I was truly feeling the "midrange" deck across the field with no great nor terrible matches and I was very happy the way I played my game. Only misplaying once as far as I can judge and I felt challenged troughout the whole event. Great way to spent de evening.
MVP:Blossoming Defense and Bristling Hydra no doubt about it, about every time I could land a Bristling Hydra I won, the resiliency is great and feels OP some of the time. I've only seen my The Scarab God once, and it served only as a much needed blocker one attack phase, which would have been lethal otherwise. Verdurous Gearhulks is awesome when it lands, but it didn't happen once. All instances were countered.
Hope you guys enjoy the read and any feedback is welcome.
Uh, how do the rest of you feel about leaving out Walking Ballista? I'm glad it worked out for Smaug, but facing down several decks without them feels sketchy to me (specifically Temur Energy).
Nice job on first place Smaug! I have been winning against Ramunap Red fairly often. It's always close, but if we can Fatal push early and get down enough creatures, the match up is in our favor. It's even more so after game 1 I believe.
I really like the decklist. I run 2 vraska's contempt mb. I will swap out 1 vraska's contempt for one Hostage Taker mb as it can function as removal and game winning bomb as well. Hostage taker is good, but it isn't 4 in the 75 good to me.
As you've said and I've experienced, Bristling Hydra is a boss. I have been running 4 mb since before ixalan release. It outperforms hostage taker in most situations. It's also quite easy to have 6 energy for 2 hexproof activations on turn 4. I have won many a game off a turn 4 hydra with energy already in the bank to protect it. Having a creature with 1 built in hexproof turn is crazy good alongside b. defense as we can have 2 potential hexproof creatures on the board at once.
You have a much higher curve than most. Do you have trouble playing your cards on time? I'd recommend switching a gearhulk for the 4th copy of b. hydra. We can win games by simply curving out creatures on turns 2, 3, 4 against many decks.
As a general note for all of us, I know servant of the conduit has been voted down before. I wonder if it might possibly be a useful 1-of filling in a spot as the "22nd land" in decks with a higher cmc. I've been trying out 22 vs 21 land and it seems like 21 land is better, but you have to cut down the number of 4 and 5 cost spells to do so. I may try a 21 land+1 servant build with a slightly higher curve. Servant gives energy for cub or glint sleeve, color fixing, ramp and more possibilities to play 2 2 drops on turn 4. We also can't underestimate the power of a turn 3 Bristling hydra for those playing it.
Uh, how do the rest of you feel about leaving out Walking Ballista? I'm glad it worked out for Smaug, but facing down several decks without them feels sketchy to me (specifically Temur Energy).
As to walking ballista, I've said before the card is less than impressive to me. It shines as a turn 2 play against ramunamp red and other aggro decks that have 1 toughness creatures. Otherwise, it doesn't seem so great. Why do you say it's good against Temur energy? It seems like a card to side out against them as they have no 1 toughness creatures. It'd be better to play essence scatter, Harsh Scrutiny, Kitesail freebooter, and duress against them in my opinion.
People have said in the past that it can be used late game as a mana sink. I feel playing another bristling hydra or 5 drop in the late game is a better choice though. Walking ballista used to be really good when the Nissa, voice of zendikar and verdurous gearhulk were included in the deck. Without a lot of ways to give this guy free counters, the power level just isn't there to run 3-4 mb.
I was taking 2 walking ballista out of the mb and into the sideboard last time I played at FNM. Then I found out 4 out of the 10 players that night were playing ramunap red. (Also a mono black aggro/killspell deck that plays glint sleeve has shown up a couple of times.) Adjusting to this, 2 ballista will go back into the main and possibly an extra in the sideboard. If you're not facing a ridiculous amount of aggro in the meta, walking ballista is probably only 0-1 slot mainboard with possibly another 1-2 in the side.
Yea, I've seen how you want to play Sultai. You and I fundamentally view how we're supposed to play the deck differently. You're trying to play a slower, controlling game. I believe we have to get aggressive against base Temur and Temur black because they generally have better spells and resources to play the long game. Walking Ballista is one of the few ways to maintain some control over combat and planeswalkers that also scales as the game goes longer. I wouldn't necessarily play four of them for those decks, but none seems insane. Bristling Hydra doesn't beat down an energy opponent with Whirler Virtuoso who has managed to keep up with you. If you're already winning, you could beat them up with a ham sandwich and still win. If you're losing, one roadblock in the Hydra doesn't necessarily get it done. The only thing I like about Hydra is that it's resilient to spot removal.
Think of Walking Ballista as a pseudo removal spell. It messes with combat math, and can be a huge blow out if the opponent doesn't account for it or doesn't know you're sand bagging one in hand. It's a game changer against aggro, not only removing multiple creatures while potentially surviving itself, but it can even block then ping. It can stop life gain from happening by sacrificing itself after chump blocking, causing them to lose life in the exchange instead of gain. It's a very versatile creature, and I agree with chaos021 that we must be the aggressor. We aren't Ramunap Red aggressor, but keeping our opponent off their game while playing into our synergies is how we roll over the opponent. Walking Ballista has so much versatility, even in the early game, and especially in the late game when we have mana to pump, that it can control the game by itself. Very slowly, but it can do it. So how do I feel about removing it? I think it won't be felt in some match-ups, but others, the loss will be extremely painful. Temur is one of those match-ups, as Whirler Virtuoso is a pain. Removing thopters can be huge. Pinging Planeswalkers can be huge, especially if it gets it off the board or stops an ultimate for that one extra turn. It's one of the reasons I still run Rhonas, is to be able to trample through damage with our fatties when the board is stalled.
Thanks for the responses. I've been on various energy lists from gruul pummeler to simic control since kaladesh and have never ever left home without Bristling Hydra. The only reason why I cut the 4th and play 3 in this deck was to maindeck 1 Vraska's Contempt alongside 2 Hostage Taker.
I feel 21 lands and 4 Attune with Aether works out fine. Most games I never see a 5 drop, But when I do I can usually cast it that game.
Multiples are not really nescesary so the 2nd Verdurous Gearhulk could very well be the 4th Bristling Hydra
The reason I don't play Walking Ballista is simple, I don't own any. And while I do think it helps the aggro matchup, I don't feel I need to be more aggro myself and like the way the more midrange deck plays out. Have never played against Temur Energy so can't comment on that particular matchup, I do feel we have tools to deal with their threats aswell as ways to outgrow their removal.
Seth Manfield cut back to 3 in his PT list. I have copied that and have considered going down to 2 maindeck. I don't consider it a sacred cow, but at what point do we have so few cards that are improved by Constrictor that Constrictor isn't good?
Seth Manfield cut back to 3 in his PT list. I have copied that and have considered going down to 2 maindeck. I don't consider it a sacred cow, but at what point do we have so few cards that are improved by Constrictor that Constrictor isn't good?
My issue is that, if we cut Winding Constrictor and we're still playing energy themes, why would we not just play Temur instead? If we're not playing energy, then what are we going to play that's as powerful or consistent? Right now, I don't see anything else in that color scheme that's even viable. I would say Sultai Reanimator is an option, but it doesn't deal well with aggro at all, and any graveyard hate is really difficult to play around. Otherwise, just removing Constrictor makes for a crappy Sultai deck with a lot less punch. Temur generates energy more consistently and has better things to do when they don't have energy. I'm pretty sure the counters part of the deck isn't viable without Constrictor.
Seth Manfield cut back to 3 in his PT list. I have copied that and have considered going down to 2 maindeck. I don't consider it a sacred cow, but at what point do we have so few cards that are improved by Constrictor that Constrictor isn't good?
My issue is that, if we cut Winding Constrictor and we're still playing energy themes, why would we not just play Temur instead? If we're not playing energy, then what are we going to play that's as powerful or consistent? Right now, I don't see anything else in that color scheme that's even viable. I would say Sultai Reanimator is an option, but it doesn't deal well with aggro at all, and any graveyard hate is really difficult to play around. Otherwise, just removing Constrictor makes for a crappy Sultai deck with a lot less punch. Temur generates energy more consistently and has better things to do when they don't have energy. I'm pretty sure the counters part of the deck isn't viable without Constrictor.
Glint-Sleeve Siphoner is awesome and can just take over. Vraska's Contempt is good also. A 3-color deck that plays Vraska.
SmauG had plenty of payoffs for Constrictor, and I don't know what the point is, but there is a point where Constrictors isn't good. People are 5-0ing competitive leagues with Sultai non-Constrictor and I have been tempted. I will probably test such a deck myself.
Also, he's totally right about the third Scavenger and, honestly, I think if you aren't playing Vraska you aren't playing the deck correctly. I don't mean to sound obnoxious and apologise if I come across that way. Vraska is expensive, but so worthwhile. We have no MD outs to annoying enchantments and artifacts and Vraska gives us this in spades while not diluting the threats in our deck. If you totally stall out and can't brak through the wall, at least you can go for the ult + a ping from a Ballista ftw. That's not the main value though as it's very corner case. Killing GPG, or a 6/6 angel and creating a stream of blockers for the big Hydra on the other side of the table is just too valuable.
Re: Scavenger, I will see if one is available. And on Blossoming, with such a skew to slower and more removal heavy decks against me, is a reduced number a good idea?
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
This sounds wrong to me.
If you're relying on Vraska to break random enchantments and artifacts, I feel like you're probably playing the deck wrong. The only time I've seen Vraska swing a board is when both players have stalled out. In that case, Bristling Hydra, Walking Ballista or the Scarab God are just as good. Our match against UW GPG is really positive for Sultai if you're running Hostage Takers. I've literally killed them in a myriad of ways: By running them out of threats, taking their GPG or eating everything with Deathgorge Scavenger. The best place I've seen Vraska used is in the Sultai Energy mirror, and I'd just rather not. It's definitely not that good against base Temur. I also question how good it is against Temur Black.
I don’t want to dilute the main plan but at the same time if I can hedge against what I expect to see I think there is value in my that. My problem is that I don’t always know when to stop!
Still, I am concerned that you will have hands with more dead cards than you want. Hostage Taker is kind of a 3-for-1 and an unbelievable tempo swing, but dies pretty easily. The payoff makes 4 Blossoming Defense worthwhile. You aren't running Hostage Takers, though. So, in your shoes, I would cut back on the Defense.
But it is just free advice, barely worth what you paid for it. Think about it, change your deck or don't. Please let us know what you figure out in your post mortem. I am super interested in what you think afterwards. I am super uninterested in convincing you of anything. You are the expert in your deck and meta. You have to live with the consequences. I just want to present ideas for you to evaluate and learn from your experience.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Thanks for your insights!
I'd like to respond to your comment about Scavenger. In fact, I'm considering it as a one off main for an opcomming tournament (will report afterwards) with another two in the side. Thing is, I can't decide what to take out.
The card is very good in most matches. Gaining you life against aggro and targeted removal and keeping various decks that abuse the graveyard in check like GPG, control, scarab gods and grow lists. All while putting preasure on the opponents life total and has a gigantic target on its back. It's just that versatile.
Only ceveat, it's not very synergistic and would take a very synergistic card to be taken out.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Being a 3-drop, you want to take out one of your lower end cards. You could consider cutting a Rogue Refiner, since it's a one-shot energy card. If you're less concerned about aggro, you could drop a Walking Ballista.
Totally fair and appreciated.
I come here with theory-crafted lists and ideas because I don't have much (or consistent) time to play. I lean heavily on the advice you guys all present, and ask questions usually because I don't have the experience in the meta to really see the nuances of different opposing decks. If I come across as doubting the advice that's on my delivery - it's not intended that way.
Anyway, I am making adjustments accounting for all that's said in the thread and will report what happens on the weekend.
That's the thing right there, I'm having difficulties cutting any refiners or rishkars for that matter as I consider them to be core elements to the deck.
Refiner is mush more than a one shot energy card. It's a roadblock or extra attacker while replacing itself and is another great T3 play after Cub.
I allready play a version where I favour 3 Hydra's over 3 Ballista's.
I guess I can live with one less Siphoner but have no options left to test.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I’m tempted mainly because it would presumably help reduce the volume of mulligans this deck faces.
My last two PPTQs with Sultai Energy have been blighted by unkeepable draws and then land floods or draughts. Part of the game I know but one would hope greater consistency would accompany a return to two colours.
@SmauG - I looked back a few pages and didn't see a list for you, so I don't really know what to suggest. Seth cut the fourth Ballista and that's been widely adopted. I'm on a single Rishkar because I figure the second is worse than the first. Siphoner, the third Ballista, Refiner all seem reasonable. Push is another situational card that I like to shave when I don't expect to face a lot of Aggro.
In my dino deck I maindecked 4 Deathgorge on Monday. With two out of three matches against Gift it seemed brilliant but it was really driven by a lack of good 3 drops that could crew a Heart. In this deck, I prefer maxing synergy game 1, so I would pull a Siphoner if I expected Aggro and Push if I expected Combo or control.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
I know the value of Rogue Refiner, but if you read about Seth Manfield and his sideboarding plan, he had been advised by his team that on certain match-ups, he was to board out all four. Why? While Refiner has a function in the deck, other cards can just be better in certain match-ups. This is not a discussion regarding the value of Refiner, but rather, the value of Refiner as compared to Deathgorge Scavenger in your specific meta (and to a degree the meta at large). Side by side comparison, Refiner provides more synergy and card advantage, but Scavenger provides better aggro, life gain, and helps mitigate certain strategies. If you're worried about GPG, you'd rather be packing 4 Scavengers over 4 Refiners. Same goes for virtually any aggro match-up, as the life gain can be huge. If you're going up against mid-range, they're both good, but Refiner is arguably better because of the synergy factor.
I have argued in the past, and it's still true, that this is a synergy deck. Scavenger is a SB card to me because its not synergistic. G1 should be all about our synergy. But, if your meta is full of certain match-ups where other cards (like Scavenger) significantly improve your G1 percent win, then by all means, find what you consider to be the weak link in your deck, synergy-wise, and replace it. You'll have to live with your changes, not me, so be sure to take my words with a grain of salt.
I'll report what I take with me on a computer asap and will get back to it with results. For now i'm giving a maindeck Scavenger another night of thought.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I lost all matches 1-2, facing Mardu, mirror and vampire aggro. Very demoralizing to say the least. And given that I'm not seeing much of anything planned for, I feel like I will need to make a lot of adjustments that won't contribute much to the larger discussion for those with more stable/predictable metas. Stepping back into mostly observer mode for a while. I'll likely be spending most of my time in Deck Creation perusing the offbeat stuff.
First time i seriously took notes on the games so I could reflect.
Long story short: I took this deck to a 4-1 finish and endend 1st place!
4 Forest
1 Island
2 Swamp
4 Aether Hub
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Botanical Sanctum
2 Fetid Pools
Creatures
4 Longtusk Cub
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
4 Winding Constrictor
4 Rogue Refiner
2 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
3 Bristling Hydra
2 Hostage Taker
2 Verdurous Gearhulk
1 The Scarab God
4 Attune with Aether
4 Fatal Push
4 Blossoming Defense
1 Vraska's Contempt
3 Duress
2 Die Young
2 Prowling Serpopard
3 Deathgorge Scavenger
2 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Yehenni's Expertise
1 Vraska's Contempt
1 Confiscation Coup
I was seriously contemplating whether or not to put a Deathgorge Scavenger in the maindeck, but ultimately decided not to. I did board them in in most matchups, but the cards I took out were differed troughout the evening.
I played 4 rounds, followed by a final round (5 rounds total). I knew some decks I would face so I loaded up some slots to help me beat those.
Round 1: Temur Miracle Grow (2-0)
Game one: His deck does what his deck does and builds up to two big threats, one of them a 6/4 flying Enigma Drake. Game is pretty tight, but my two Bristling Hydra's could swing for lethal, forcing him to block with both his big guys. He has mana open and so have I. I also have a Blossoming Defense in hand. We trade some spells and I lose a Hydra, But manage to take the Enigma Drake with me. I'm at 10 life, and he can swing for 9 maximum. My game!
Game two: I push hist first Deeproot Champion, his second lives. My Deathgorge Scavenger survives long enough for me to stabilize and keep a potential flyer small. I draw more gas and he just scoops to alot of land draws in a row, he says he only plays 17 land. Win! 1-0
Out: 2 Rishkar, Peema Renegade, 1 Rogue Refiner
In: 3 Deathgorge Scavenger
Round 2: R/B Ramunap Red (1-2)
Game one: Bad start, I mull down to 4 with one off colour land and scry away a gearhulk. It takes 4 turns to draw a Fetid Pools. Way to late. I get hit by 18 in the final turn. I never played a spell.
Game Two: I draw the nut Attune with Aether, Longtusk Cub and Winding Constrictor paired with Aether Hub, a green and a black mana source. He sticks on two lands and doesn't manage to remove the cub in time for it to grow out of reach. Longtusk Cub FTW.
Game Three: I answer his early threats with Die Young and Fatal Push but never draw any gas. A lone Deathgorge Scavenger gains me two life on ETB but get's removed and I just got beat down. Loss, 1-1
Out: 4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, 2 Verdurous Gearhulk
In: 2 Die Young, 3 Deathgorge Scavenger, 1 Yahenni's Expertise
Round 3: U/B Control (2-1)
Game one: Grindy matchup for sure. Eventually a Glint-Sleeve Siphoner attacks past his blocker and keeps the cards comming. Bristling Hydra doesn't get countered and Seals the deal. He didn't dug into his finishers.
Game two: I land an early Nissa, Steward of Elements and scry away 6! cards before finding Attune with Aether and Bristling Hydra He pings her one per turn with his Kitesail Freebooter But I manage to get high enough to land Bristling Hydra and try to go for the kill two turns later with Nissa's ultimate. Missplayed there, to greedy. One land gets pushed and the other get's blocked. The Hydra alone wasn't enough. Everything else I do gets countered and a few turns later, Torrential Gearhulk get's me down.
Game three: A few counterspells into the game I eventually land my Prowling Serpopard. I manage to attack with hit a few times, and an attempt to remove with Vraska's Contempt gets countered with Blossoming Defense which I was keeping for Hostage Taker for one of his finishers. The turn thereafter, He takes my Prowling Serpopard hostage and casts it immediately. He is tapped out, and the next turn I respond with the exact same move. Pretty Hilarious. Two Longtusk Cubs are enough to take the match! His God came a turn to late. Win. 2-1
Out: 1 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, 1 Rogue Refiner, 2 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
In: 2 Prowling Serpopard, 2 Nissa, Steward of Elements
Round 4 B/W Zombie-Mummies (2-0)
Game one: He managed to get trough a few swings until I push his more controlling Binding Mummy From there I just focused on the beat down. By far the easiest game so far.
Game Two: He opens with Duress But I hit the nut again, This time with two Attune With Aether in hand. He takes one, probably a mistake. Swung a 6 power Longtusk Cub on turn three and goining upwards. Eventually ending at 10/10 with a Blossoming Defense still in hand. Win 3-1
Out: 1 Rishkar. Peema Renegade, 1 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
In: 2 Deathgorge Scavenger
Final R/B Ramunap Red (2-0)
Game one: Being on the draw, we both hit a lot of gas. A 4/5 Winding Constrictor and Rishkar, Peema Renegade Block for days and I manage to get some more energy to let my cub grow. My Vraska's Contempt gets his Hazoret the Fervent and I manage to get there. Tight game.
Game two: He hits off with a lot of gas early on but I manage to Push one of his Earthshaker Khenra's. Bloodrage Brawler Gets in once before I take it with Hostage Taker. Nice one there, he kills the Hostage Taker with Lightning Strike forcing himself to discard his last spell in hand. Another Lightning Strike.
In the end, his Hazoret the Fervent meets my The Scarab God alongside a big Bristling Hydra and a Rogue Refiner. His last attack puts me on 1 life and I get in for the kill the next turn. Win!!! 4-1
Out: 4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, 2 Verdurous Gearhulk
In: 2 Die Young, 3 Deathgorge Scavenger, 1 Yahenni's Expertise
In hindsight, I'm happy I kept my deck the way I put it together in the first place, with the 3 Deathgorge Scavengers in the side. All matches demanded a somewhat different approach. I was truly feeling the "midrange" deck across the field with no great nor terrible matches and I was very happy the way I played my game. Only misplaying once as far as I can judge and I felt challenged troughout the whole event. Great way to spent de evening.
MVP: Blossoming Defense and Bristling Hydra no doubt about it, about every time I could land a Bristling Hydra I won, the resiliency is great and feels OP some of the time. I've only seen my The Scarab God once, and it served only as a much needed blocker one attack phase, which would have been lethal otherwise. Verdurous Gearhulks is awesome when it lands, but it didn't happen once. All instances were countered.
Hope you guys enjoy the read and any feedback is welcome.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I really like the decklist. I run 2 vraska's contempt mb. I will swap out 1 vraska's contempt for one Hostage Taker mb as it can function as removal and game winning bomb as well. Hostage taker is good, but it isn't 4 in the 75 good to me.
As you've said and I've experienced, Bristling Hydra is a boss. I have been running 4 mb since before ixalan release. It outperforms hostage taker in most situations. It's also quite easy to have 6 energy for 2 hexproof activations on turn 4. I have won many a game off a turn 4 hydra with energy already in the bank to protect it. Having a creature with 1 built in hexproof turn is crazy good alongside b. defense as we can have 2 potential hexproof creatures on the board at once.
You have a much higher curve than most. Do you have trouble playing your cards on time? I'd recommend switching a gearhulk for the 4th copy of b. hydra. We can win games by simply curving out creatures on turns 2, 3, 4 against many decks.
As a general note for all of us, I know servant of the conduit has been voted down before. I wonder if it might possibly be a useful 1-of filling in a spot as the "22nd land" in decks with a higher cmc. I've been trying out 22 vs 21 land and it seems like 21 land is better, but you have to cut down the number of 4 and 5 cost spells to do so. I may try a 21 land+1 servant build with a slightly higher curve. Servant gives energy for cub or glint sleeve, color fixing, ramp and more possibilities to play 2 2 drops on turn 4. We also can't underestimate the power of a turn 3 Bristling hydra for those playing it.
As to walking ballista, I've said before the card is less than impressive to me. It shines as a turn 2 play against ramunamp red and other aggro decks that have 1 toughness creatures. Otherwise, it doesn't seem so great. Why do you say it's good against Temur energy? It seems like a card to side out against them as they have no 1 toughness creatures. It'd be better to play essence scatter, Harsh Scrutiny, Kitesail freebooter, and duress against them in my opinion.
People have said in the past that it can be used late game as a mana sink. I feel playing another bristling hydra or 5 drop in the late game is a better choice though. Walking ballista used to be really good when the Nissa, voice of zendikar and verdurous gearhulk were included in the deck. Without a lot of ways to give this guy free counters, the power level just isn't there to run 3-4 mb.
I was taking 2 walking ballista out of the mb and into the sideboard last time I played at FNM. Then I found out 4 out of the 10 players that night were playing ramunap red. (Also a mono black aggro/killspell deck that plays glint sleeve has shown up a couple of times.) Adjusting to this, 2 ballista will go back into the main and possibly an extra in the sideboard. If you're not facing a ridiculous amount of aggro in the meta, walking ballista is probably only 0-1 slot mainboard with possibly another 1-2 in the side.
I feel 21 lands and 4 Attune with Aether works out fine. Most games I never see a 5 drop, But when I do I can usually cast it that game.
Multiples are not really nescesary so the 2nd Verdurous Gearhulk could very well be the 4th Bristling Hydra
The reason I don't play Walking Ballista is simple, I don't own any. And while I do think it helps the aggro matchup, I don't feel I need to be more aggro myself and like the way the more midrange deck plays out. Have never played against Temur Energy so can't comment on that particular matchup, I do feel we have tools to deal with their threats aswell as ways to outgrow their removal.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
My issue is that, if we cut Winding Constrictor and we're still playing energy themes, why would we not just play Temur instead? If we're not playing energy, then what are we going to play that's as powerful or consistent? Right now, I don't see anything else in that color scheme that's even viable. I would say Sultai Reanimator is an option, but it doesn't deal well with aggro at all, and any graveyard hate is really difficult to play around. Otherwise, just removing Constrictor makes for a crappy Sultai deck with a lot less punch. Temur generates energy more consistently and has better things to do when they don't have energy. I'm pretty sure the counters part of the deck isn't viable without Constrictor.
SmauG had plenty of payoffs for Constrictor, and I don't know what the point is, but there is a point where Constrictors isn't good. People are 5-0ing competitive leagues with Sultai non-Constrictor and I have been tempted. I will probably test such a deck myself.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.