I turned my Snek Vampires list into a BW version, and I think it's better that way.
Besides, I was working on the Explore mechanic and wasn't super satisfied with white. With Sultai though, I keep the same cards and come back to the Snek, and here I am :
What I experience with Explore is that I don't hesitate to dig for land drops. It's counter-intuitive to drop a creature, but this is where the Scarab God plays its part. In the white version, I like Adorned Pouncer coming back, but in Sultai there's no good Eternalize card to play. It's still very good to reanimate a 4/4 creature and let it attack as an 8/8 flyer !
Anybody's taking this path ?
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I think I like ths idea. Certainly, I think its worth trying out. The cards are all dirt cheap, so it's not like there's any real risk. Couple of things though:
1) I think sacrificing Siphoner is a huge error. I realize you are going counters instead of energy, but the Siphoner often generates the energy he needs all by himself.
2) Attune -- again, I know you are trying to do something different, but one of the main reasons the deck works as it is, is because you can mana fix so effectively.
3) I am not thrilled with the top end. It's really just more dorks while I like to see a different angle of attack. So I'd want to see a couple of Vraskas.
4) You can make room for some of these things by cutting Enter the Unknown -- which looks awful -- and maybe Hadana's Climb. The Temple looks really good though, so it's totally worth testing.
Some really interesting ideas here though. Good work.
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
I turned my Snek Vampires list into a BW version, and I think it's better that way.
Besides, I was working on the Explore mechanic and wasn't super satisfied with white. With Sultai though, I keep the same cards and come back to the Snek, and here I am :
What I experience with Explore is that I don't hesitate to dig for land drops. It's counter-intuitive to drop a creature, but this is where the Scarab God plays its part. In the white version, I like Adorned Pouncer coming back, but in Sultai there's no good Eternalize card to play. It's still very good to reanimate a 4/4 creature and let it attack as an 8/8 flyer !
Anybody's taking this path ?
Best Eternalize card in blue is Champion of Wits, which incidentally also works at filling the yard for The Scarab God and filtering our unneeded cards (similar to Explore, but no +1/+1 counter synergy). Only one in black is Dreamstealer, who is decent but underwhelming.
Without Hostage Taker, Blossoming Defense is not needed, or at least, is not near as effective a card. This deck seems cute, but any disruption to the synergy and its a goner. Sultai Snek works because almost all the creatures are individually powerful. Longtusk Cub and Bristling Hydra can run away with the game by themselves via repeatable activations. None of the Merfolk have that type of power. Relying solely on the Explore mechanic for one (maybe two via Enter the Unknown) opportunities to put counters on the creatures is a weak plan. Wildgrowth Walker is anemic by itself. I think the Explore mechanic is good for Limited, but not push enough for Standard with Energy around. It's the problem with the Energy mechanic - it's so easy to make and has powerful payouts, so there's very little that can compete with it.
I'm not trying to be a downer on the deck. It looks very fun to play, but it's not going to be Tier 1 at this time just due to the raw power of Energy. Out of curiosity, though, why didn't you play any of the below listed creatures?
Forerunner of the Heralds - higher CMC, but gets bigger as you play more merfolks Deeproot Elite - low CMC and good merfolk/+1/+1 counter synergy Swift Warden - 3/3 for 3 with Flash is already good, but it gives temporary Hexproof and plays into Merfolk synergies?!? Silvergill Adept - a great merfolk in a merfolk synergy deck Merfolk Mistbinder - lords are good, but you may not have enough merfolk to merit it
I also cut Rishkar down to one, but that card is still really good. Yes, opponents can respond to it. That sums up a most of our deck. The advantage when they don't can be, as hoser2 put it, overwhelming when they don't though. To say it has "no impact" is misleading I think.
I think you misunderstood me. On an empty board, he’s a 3/3 for three. That’s not good. That’s not breaking any stalemates. When he’s awesome he’s awesome but that’s rare anymore. To many spot removals in temur or the mirror. Deathgorge atleast gives you an aggressive card with at least two life return.
He has won me some games. He’s also been a dead draw more often than not. On turn three I’d rather play a two drop and have mana for attune, push or defense.
If I was going to add a three drop I’d put the new ranger in before rishkar. Atleast you have return on it regardless of what your opponent does.
The deck loses so much without Attune. No way can we keep up with RRed without the consistent mana and early energy. If that happens we have to evolve into a new deck. Personally, I think it probably dies. I think that's very unlikely though. WotC has screwed the pooch so badly over the past year with al the bannings, you have to think they are really reticent to interfere again.
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
If they don’t ban either the hub or the attune, standard dies for a year....somethings gotta change
People always ***** about Standard. There has literally NEVER been a Standard environment where a group of people wasn't *****ing about something. This much I know for certain: continuing their ban spiral will crush any confidence several current players have in Standard as it did during the past few bannings. I mean what's the point of playing Standard if all I have to do is get a mob together to ***** about something to get it banned? That seems really dumb when Standard is WotC's cash cow. Also, as much as everyone says, "Man, I would play Standard but energy is ridiculous." There are plenty of other, viable decks to play. If those people wanted to play Standard, they would. Face it people. Some of you (yea, I said it) just like to ***** and moan. I've seen "broken" formats. This isn't it. Boring? I could see that. I'll even throw in repetitive, but that's what you get when your card pool doesn't significantly change from set to set. That's just Standard. I could go on and on at length, but maybe this isn't the place.
If they don’t ban either the hub or the attune, standard dies for a year....somethings gotta change
People always ***** about Standard. There has literally NEVER been a Standard environment where a group of people wasn't *****ing about something. This much I know for certain: continuing their ban spiral will crush any confidence several current players have in Standard as it did during the past few bannings. I mean what's the point of playing Standard if all I have to do is get a mob together to ***** about something to get it banned? That seems really dumb when Standard is WotC's cash cow. Also, as much as everyone says, "Man, I would play Standard but energy is ridiculous." There are plenty of other, viable decks to play. If those people wanted to play Standard, they would. Face it people. Some of you (yea, I said it) just like to ***** and moan. I've seen "broken" formats. This isn't it. Boring? I could see that. I'll even throw in repetitive, but that's what you get when your card pool doesn't significantly change from set to set. That's just Standard. I could go on and on at length, but maybe this isn't the place.
/rant
I agree it’s not broken. The problem is no one will buy standard now. It’s not fun to play atm.
To say there are their viable decks is absurd. I mean...you can play others....and lose. If you play competitive Magic’s, even at LGS, you play energy or you lose your entry fee.
It’s their cash cow and no one is buying it. I have been with mtg since the mid 90s. T2 has always been this way, yea, but the last time the format was this bad was kamigawa. Mtg damn near flopped then. It’s on the verge again
@Chaos021 : it's not the topic to discuss it, but I suggest you to read SaffronOlive's article on MTG Goldfish, it's facts, numbers, history and Wizards' policy, i.e. a better read than any comment section or forum discussion out there. The "whining" point is very painful to read because it's not an argument, so please stop insulting a part of the community with it.
I'm not trying to be a downer on the deck. It looks very fun to play, but it's not going to be Tier 1 at this time just due to the raw power of Energy. Out of curiosity, though, why didn't you play any of the below listed creatures?
I also test Merfolk shells. Thing is once you play merfs, there's not much room left for Contrictor (and the mana is tough) or make the Explore mechanic work at full potential.
I can't hide that I expect a ban on Attune, but besides that speculation, I'm just testing at this point. The primary card I want to play is Hadana's Climb. It's very very strong, but one must build around to make it work. Explore is an option I'm... exploring !
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If they don’t ban either the hub or the attune, standard dies for a year....somethings gotta change
People always ***** about Standard. There has literally NEVER been a Standard environment where a group of people wasn't *****ing about something. This much I know for certain: continuing their ban spiral will crush any confidence several current players have in Standard as it did during the past few bannings. I mean what's the point of playing Standard if all I have to do is get a mob together to ***** about something to get it banned? That seems really dumb when Standard is WotC's cash cow. Also, as much as everyone says, "Man, I would play Standard but energy is ridiculous." There are plenty of other, viable decks to play. If those people wanted to play Standard, they would. Face it people. Some of you (yea, I said it) just like to ***** and moan. I've seen "broken" formats. This isn't it. Boring? I could see that. I'll even throw in repetitive, but that's what you get when your card pool doesn't significantly change from set to set. That's just Standard. I could go on and on at length, but maybe this isn't the place.
/rant
I agree.
Energy is very strong, but it's definitely not invincible. Banning attune or aether hub would be a mistake. I think Rivals has lots of good cards that I'm sure will see competitive play and shake the current meta decks up a bit.
I think Wizards should have added some more good removal or something. The format seems very skint in terms of that. It's usually some clunky removal if you don't play red.
Like this snake deck. It seriously needs something like Grasp of Darkness again.
@Chaos021 : it's not the topic to discuss it, but I suggest you to read SaffronOlive's article on MTG Goldfish, it's facts, numbers, history and Wizards' policy, i.e. a better read than any comment section or forum discussion out there. The "whining" point is very painful to read because it's not an argument, so please stop insulting a part of the community with it.
If you or whatever "community" is insulted, that's your (or their) problem. It's my opinion. I've been playing this game for a long time. The last 3 years has been a departure from business-as-usual as far as how they push mechanics and the general power level of new sets outside of a few (older) outliers.
I've also read several pieces from people far more qualified than Saffron Olive as far as game design is concerned. They diverge in many directions as well, but not one said energy itself is a broken mechanic. NOT ONE! So why are so many people smarter than us agreeing on at least that one point?
In any case, this is the last I'm saying about this on this forum.
I agree.
Energy is very strong, but it's definitely not invincible. Banning attune or aether hub would be a mistake. I think Rivals has lots of good cards that I'm sure will see competitive play and shake the current meta decks up a bit.
I think Wizards should have added some more good removal or something. The format seems very skint in terms of that. It's usually some clunky removal if you don't play red.
Like this snake deck. It seriously needs something like Grasp of Darkness again.
I don’t think any of the rivals cards are good enough to change anything in standard.
Totally agree with you Chaos. Nothing wrong with energy.
The game's designers are bankrupt of ideas, so they've pushed a few things out that didn't work leading to a mess of bannings that have badly undermined consumer confidence in the game. I've been laying since 94 and I've seen some really crappy formats. This isn't even close to that bad. But in those cases, WotC designed their way out of the problem. They aren't doing that this time. They've been dumbing the game down for years now, "simplifying" some rules and designing out complexity. I am not calling for a return of interrupt windows, but the whole you-can-play-anything-you-want-as-long-as-you-play-monsters is intellectually boring.
/M
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
I agree.
Energy is very strong, but it's definitely not invincible. Banning attune or aether hub would be a mistake. I think Rivals has lots of good cards that I'm sure will see competitive play and shake the current meta decks up a bit.
I think Wizards should have added some more good removal or something. The format seems very skint in terms of that. It's usually some clunky removal if you don't play red.
Like this snake deck. It seriously needs something like Grasp of Darkness again.
I don’t think any of the rivals cards are good enough to change anything in standard.
...They've been dumbing the game down for years now, "simplifying" some rules and designing out complexity. I am not calling for a return of interrupt windows, but the whole you-can-play-anything-you-want-as-long-as-you-play-monsters is intellectually boring.
I haven't been playing near as long (2014 here), but I don't see complexity going down. Maro has stated on several occasions that the complexity of recent sets has been way higher than normal. There are few vanilla creatures, an abundance of mechanics, and some recent mechanics are not as grokkable as other older mechanics (not counting stuff like flanking, lol). Draft becomes more complicated because there are more cards to read often with longer text boxes. How does that translate into "designing out complexity"?
I, personally, like playing creature-based decks. Midrange like Abzan in the Siege Rhino days and this deck here resonate with me. Creatures represent the most repeatable way to win a game because they are forms of repeatable damage and protection, so naturally, the best decks will thrive around the best creatures. Even decks like Caw Blade centered around creatures (e.g. Stoneforge Mystic) and the synergy of cards (powerful artifacts that could make your creatures better), much like we play powerful creatures that get better because of the Energy mechanic. WOTC can't just print stupid powerful spells, because decks like Marvel will come around and dominate the meta.
When I started playing, it was RTR/Theros standard, and there were several legitimate strategies. Black devotion was the best, but UW Sphinx Rev Control was a viable option, as was UB devotion and I think 2-3 more were competitive but maybe 1.5 tier. Now, we have Temur energy, Temur black energy, and Sultai energy all vying for the top spot. But trailing, and still reasonably competitive, there's Ramunap Red (aggro), Drake Haven (combo control), Approach (control), and several others. Energy is like black devotion in this Standard. I heard so many complaints about Pack Rat dominating Standard it was ridiculous. It's a wonder I didn't quit playing right then! So isn't this just an old hat argument? How is it really any different?
Very interesting discussion. I'm not sure I should be encouraging it here. If anybody objects, please PM me. Unless I hear something, I'll go mod hat off.
I really like snek. The pros say Temur is better and I believe them, but I so prefer playing Siphoner over Servant that I don't care. I'm okay playing tier 1.5-2 for Store Championship. If I had a GP or a PPTQ though, it would be hard to not play Temur. I should play Temur, but I should have been playing it all along in order to play it optimally. For FNM, I think it's BM to play snek more than half the time because it's too good.
Still, much as I like snek, I'm not that excited to play it. I can't tell if I've become jaded or not, but I remember being excited every week to tweak 2-3 cards in my Abzan Control deck and see how it worked in a 4 round tournament with two mirrors and green devotion. I'll keep snek together and play it if it's competitive when I want to be competitive. I'm more excited to play Constrictor in a Merfolk Explore shell, though. I've just been playing snek for a year. While the U splash, Rogue Refiner and Hostage Taker have been fun, it's still kinda the same.
I started the Temur thread by default. It finally got a comment. By someone whose sig says that they aren't that excited to play temur. I am the only one who has responded, even though I haven't played the deck since before Ixalan dropped.
...They've been dumbing the game down for years now, "simplifying" some rules and designing out complexity. I am not calling for a return of interrupt windows, but the whole you-can-play-anything-you-want-as-long-as-you-play-monsters is intellectually boring.
I haven't been playing near as long (2014 here), but I don't see complexity going down. Maro has stated on several occasions that the complexity of recent sets has been way higher than normal. There are few vanilla creatures, an abundance of mechanics, and some recent mechanics are not as grokkable as other older mechanics (not counting stuff like flanking, lol). Draft becomes more complicated because there are more cards to read often with longer text boxes. How does that translate into "designing out complexity"?
I, personally, like playing creature-based decks. Midrange like Abzan in the Siege Rhino days and this deck here resonate with me. Creatures represent the most repeatable way to win a game because they are forms of repeatable damage and protection, so naturally, the best decks will thrive around the best creatures. Even decks like Caw Blade centered around creatures (e.g. Stoneforge Mystic) and the synergy of cards (powerful artifacts that could make your creatures better), much like we play powerful creatures that get better because of the Energy mechanic. WOTC can't just print stupid powerful spells, because decks like Marvel will come around and dominate the meta.
When I started playing, it was RTR/Theros standard, and there were several legitimate strategies. Black devotion was the best, but UW Sphinx Rev Control was a viable option, as was UB devotion and I think 2-3 more were competitive but maybe 1.5 tier. Now, we have Temur energy, Temur black energy, and Sultai energy all vying for the top spot. But trailing, and still reasonably competitive, there's Ramunap Red (aggro), Drake Haven (combo control), Approach (control), and several others. Energy is like black devotion in this Standard. I heard so many complaints about Pack Rat dominating Standard it was ridiculous. It's a wonder I didn't quit playing right then! So isn't this just an old hat argument? How is it really any different?
To call cawblade a creature deck is just wrong. It was a control deck.
Pack rat didn’t dominate ever. Was good, but never dominant. Nothing has been this oppressive since affinity. I don’t think the mechanic is broken, just lacks any real answers in the format.
Red is the next closest competitor and it just looses to temur. There is one t1 deck and the rest are leagues behind.
I have to agree with hoser. I prefer snake to temur. I consistently beat temur. But it’s still energy that focuses on hub and attune to function.
It’s a boring format now and that will do more damage to any LGS than banning will.
Y'all really don't think a straight Merfolk tribal deck is going to upset the balance in standard?
It's funny, I haven't played against, not seen a Temur energy deck in months at my LGS. I can see both sides of the argument for banning something out of energy. I can understand people being tired of seeing energy dominate at every tournament. I don't think that energy is too good as a mechanic, I just think the following sets were too powered down. Also the inability to interact with energy has made it too strong.
I'm really glad wizards banned Copter, the cat and aetherworks marvel. I personally don't feel anywhere near the amount of anger/disappointment at playing in my LGS compared to playing against an aetherworks or crazy cat lady deck. In fact, our tiny standard scene has been pretty fun as of late. I think most people are far less concerned about playing against energy than they were the former broken/boring to play against decks I mentioned before.
Seems like the solution is to go with what the majority of people want. If an energy dominated environment means people aren't coming to FNM, wizards should ban attune. If banning attune will cause more people to leave than it will encourage them to come back, then it should stay in.
Banning attune may not be as big a deal as everyone thinks. It's not as though the entire energy theme will suddenly be worthless. It may mean people have to re-tune their decks, perhaps take a color out or change out some dual colored mana symbol cards. Energy would still be a very strong deck, however, it may bring it down enough that RR and some lower-tiered decks suddenly become playable.
Energy won't become unplayable, more decks will be playable, people are tired of Kaladesh block dominating standard, I think banning attune with aether or servant of the conduit could be a good idea.
I personally am very happy with the previous bans. It shows Wizards is at least trying to clean up their messes. The true fix is that R&D quits making such low-powered and boring sets. Of course everyone will mostly ignore under powered sets if there's still a powerful one in standard.
...They've been dumbing the game down for years now, "simplifying" some rules and designing out complexity. I am not calling for a return of interrupt windows, but the whole you-can-play-anything-you-want-as-long-as-you-play-monsters is intellectually boring.
I haven't been playing near as long (2014 here), but I don't see complexity going down. Maro has stated on several occasions that the complexity of recent sets has been way higher than normal. There are few vanilla creatures, an abundance of mechanics, and some recent mechanics are not as grokkable as other older mechanics (not counting stuff like flanking, lol). Draft becomes more complicated because there are more cards to read often with longer text boxes. How does that translate into "designing out complexity"?
I, personally, like playing creature-based decks. Midrange like Abzan in the Siege Rhino days and this deck here resonate with me. Creatures represent the most repeatable way to win a game because they are forms of repeatable damage and protection, so naturally, the best decks will thrive around the best creatures. Even decks like Caw Blade centered around creatures (e.g. Stoneforge Mystic) and the synergy of cards (powerful artifacts that could make your creatures better), much like we play powerful creatures that get better because of the Energy mechanic. WOTC can't just print stupid powerful spells, because decks like Marvel will come around and dominate the meta.
When I started playing, it was RTR/Theros standard, and there were several legitimate strategies. Black devotion was the best, but UW Sphinx Rev Control was a viable option, as was UB devotion and I think 2-3 more were competitive but maybe 1.5 tier. Now, we have Temur energy, Temur black energy, and Sultai energy all vying for the top spot. But trailing, and still reasonably competitive, there's Ramunap Red (aggro), Drake Haven (combo control), Approach (control), and several others. Energy is like black devotion in this Standard. I heard so many complaints about Pack Rat dominating Standard it was ridiculous. It's a wonder I didn't quit playing right then! So isn't this just an old hat argument? How is it really any different?
To call cawblade a creature deck is just wrong. It was a control deck.
Pack rat didn’t dominate ever. Was good, but never dominant. Nothing has been this oppressive since affinity. I don’t think the mechanic is broken, just lacks any real answers in the format.
Red is the next closest competitor and it just looses to temur. There is one t1 deck and the rest are leagues behind.
I have to agree with hoser. I prefer snake to temur. I consistently beat temur. But it’s still energy that focuses on hub and attune to function.
It’s a boring format now and that will do more damage to any LGS than banning will.
I meant that a deck like Caw Blade used a powerful creature as part of its main strategy, so I wrote that erroneously. Some Control decks use creatures to win (Torrential Gearhulk, Dragonlord Ojutai) while others use non-creature means (Lantern Control, Dynavolt Tower).
Nothing has been as oppressive as Energy decks since Affinity? That's funny, because I seem to remember Cat Combo being waaaaay more oppressive. And Emrakul before that. And Smuggler's Copter before that. I remember oppressive, and Energy isn't oppressive. It's good, don't get me wrong, but it's not oppressive. Besides, they did print an answer in the form of Solemnity. It's no different than the other hoser cards people play in Modern. Sometimes you have to put something like that in your sideboard to deal with your bad match ups. The problem is that the energy cards are often really good, even when you turn off the energy knob. Rogue Refiner is still a 3/2 for 3 that cantrips. Glorybringer doesn't even use energy. The hoser card isn't like Stony Silence or Leyline of Sanctity, where the deck just dies when the opponent plays it. Just becomes less powerful and synergistic.
The LGS can play a hand in spicing it up. They can reward players who bring brews. It could be "pauper Standard" or "block constructed" or something not normal Standard to make it more fun. I don't like the mentality that if WOTC doesn't do something, all the LGSs will suffer. It makes it sound like the LGS owners have no hand in their own fate, can do nothing to motivate their local players to diversify or enjoy the game.
Well it seems my black/green survives the ban list for the most part. Will need to go up two lands and add two cards jadelight ranger but my deck remains the same
Go snek,go
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Besides, I was working on the Explore mechanic and wasn't super satisfied with white. With Sultai though, I keep the same cards and come back to the Snek, and here I am :
1 Verdurous Gearhulk
1 The Scarab God
3 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
4 Jadelight Ranger
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Wildgrowth Walker
4 Winding Constrictor
4 Walking Ballista
2 Blossoming Defense
4 Enter the Unknown
4 Fatal Push
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Botanical Sanctum
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Evolving Wilds
1 Island
2 Swamp
3 Forest
What I experience with Explore is that I don't hesitate to dig for land drops. It's counter-intuitive to drop a creature, but this is where the Scarab God plays its part. In the white version, I like Adorned Pouncer coming back, but in Sultai there's no good Eternalize card to play. It's still very good to reanimate a 4/4 creature and let it attack as an 8/8 flyer !
Anybody's taking this path ?
1) I think sacrificing Siphoner is a huge error. I realize you are going counters instead of energy, but the Siphoner often generates the energy he needs all by himself.
2) Attune -- again, I know you are trying to do something different, but one of the main reasons the deck works as it is, is because you can mana fix so effectively.
3) I am not thrilled with the top end. It's really just more dorks while I like to see a different angle of attack. So I'd want to see a couple of Vraskas.
4) You can make room for some of these things by cutting Enter the Unknown -- which looks awful -- and maybe Hadana's Climb. The Temple looks really good though, so it's totally worth testing.
Some really interesting ideas here though. Good work.
Best Eternalize card in blue is Champion of Wits, which incidentally also works at filling the yard for The Scarab God and filtering our unneeded cards (similar to Explore, but no +1/+1 counter synergy). Only one in black is Dreamstealer, who is decent but underwhelming.
Without Hostage Taker, Blossoming Defense is not needed, or at least, is not near as effective a card. This deck seems cute, but any disruption to the synergy and its a goner. Sultai Snek works because almost all the creatures are individually powerful. Longtusk Cub and Bristling Hydra can run away with the game by themselves via repeatable activations. None of the Merfolk have that type of power. Relying solely on the Explore mechanic for one (maybe two via Enter the Unknown) opportunities to put counters on the creatures is a weak plan. Wildgrowth Walker is anemic by itself. I think the Explore mechanic is good for Limited, but not push enough for Standard with Energy around. It's the problem with the Energy mechanic - it's so easy to make and has powerful payouts, so there's very little that can compete with it.
I'm not trying to be a downer on the deck. It looks very fun to play, but it's not going to be Tier 1 at this time just due to the raw power of Energy. Out of curiosity, though, why didn't you play any of the below listed creatures?
Forerunner of the Heralds - higher CMC, but gets bigger as you play more merfolks
Deeproot Elite - low CMC and good merfolk/+1/+1 counter synergy
Swift Warden - 3/3 for 3 with Flash is already good, but it gives temporary Hexproof and plays into Merfolk synergies?!?
Silvergill Adept - a great merfolk in a merfolk synergy deck
Merfolk Mistbinder - lords are good, but you may not have enough merfolk to merit it
I think you misunderstood me. On an empty board, he’s a 3/3 for three. That’s not good. That’s not breaking any stalemates. When he’s awesome he’s awesome but that’s rare anymore. To many spot removals in temur or the mirror. Deathgorge atleast gives you an aggressive card with at least two life return.
He has won me some games. He’s also been a dead draw more often than not. On turn three I’d rather play a two drop and have mana for attune, push or defense.
If I was going to add a three drop I’d put the new ranger in before rishkar. Atleast you have return on it regardless of what your opponent does.
If they don’t ban either the hub or the attune, standard dies for a year....somethings gotta change
People always ***** about Standard. There has literally NEVER been a Standard environment where a group of people wasn't *****ing about something. This much I know for certain: continuing their ban spiral will crush any confidence several current players have in Standard as it did during the past few bannings. I mean what's the point of playing Standard if all I have to do is get a mob together to ***** about something to get it banned? That seems really dumb when Standard is WotC's cash cow. Also, as much as everyone says, "Man, I would play Standard but energy is ridiculous." There are plenty of other, viable decks to play. If those people wanted to play Standard, they would. Face it people. Some of you (yea, I said it) just like to ***** and moan. I've seen "broken" formats. This isn't it. Boring? I could see that. I'll even throw in repetitive, but that's what you get when your card pool doesn't significantly change from set to set. That's just Standard. I could go on and on at length, but maybe this isn't the place.
/rant
I agree it’s not broken. The problem is no one will buy standard now. It’s not fun to play atm.
To say there are their viable decks is absurd. I mean...you can play others....and lose. If you play competitive Magic’s, even at LGS, you play energy or you lose your entry fee.
It’s their cash cow and no one is buying it. I have been with mtg since the mid 90s. T2 has always been this way, yea, but the last time the format was this bad was kamigawa. Mtg damn near flopped then. It’s on the verge again
I also test Merfolk shells. Thing is once you play merfs, there's not much room left for Contrictor (and the mana is tough) or make the Explore mechanic work at full potential.
I can't hide that I expect a ban on Attune, but besides that speculation, I'm just testing at this point. The primary card I want to play is Hadana's Climb. It's very very strong, but one must build around to make it work. Explore is an option I'm... exploring !
I agree.
Energy is very strong, but it's definitely not invincible. Banning attune or aether hub would be a mistake. I think Rivals has lots of good cards that I'm sure will see competitive play and shake the current meta decks up a bit.
I think Wizards should have added some more good removal or something. The format seems very skint in terms of that. It's usually some clunky removal if you don't play red.
Like this snake deck. It seriously needs something like Grasp of Darkness again.
If you or whatever "community" is insulted, that's your (or their) problem. It's my opinion. I've been playing this game for a long time. The last 3 years has been a departure from business-as-usual as far as how they push mechanics and the general power level of new sets outside of a few (older) outliers.
I've also read several pieces from people far more qualified than Saffron Olive as far as game design is concerned. They diverge in many directions as well, but not one said energy itself is a broken mechanic. NOT ONE! So why are so many people smarter than us agreeing on at least that one point?
In any case, this is the last I'm saying about this on this forum.
I don’t think any of the rivals cards are good enough to change anything in standard.
The game's designers are bankrupt of ideas, so they've pushed a few things out that didn't work leading to a mess of bannings that have badly undermined consumer confidence in the game. I've been laying since 94 and I've seen some really crappy formats. This isn't even close to that bad. But in those cases, WotC designed their way out of the problem. They aren't doing that this time. They've been dumbing the game down for years now, "simplifying" some rules and designing out complexity. I am not calling for a return of interrupt windows, but the whole you-can-play-anything-you-want-as-long-as-you-play-monsters is intellectually boring.
/M
I guess we just disagree
I haven't been playing near as long (2014 here), but I don't see complexity going down. Maro has stated on several occasions that the complexity of recent sets has been way higher than normal. There are few vanilla creatures, an abundance of mechanics, and some recent mechanics are not as grokkable as other older mechanics (not counting stuff like flanking, lol). Draft becomes more complicated because there are more cards to read often with longer text boxes. How does that translate into "designing out complexity"?
I, personally, like playing creature-based decks. Midrange like Abzan in the Siege Rhino days and this deck here resonate with me. Creatures represent the most repeatable way to win a game because they are forms of repeatable damage and protection, so naturally, the best decks will thrive around the best creatures. Even decks like Caw Blade centered around creatures (e.g. Stoneforge Mystic) and the synergy of cards (powerful artifacts that could make your creatures better), much like we play powerful creatures that get better because of the Energy mechanic. WOTC can't just print stupid powerful spells, because decks like Marvel will come around and dominate the meta.
When I started playing, it was RTR/Theros standard, and there were several legitimate strategies. Black devotion was the best, but UW Sphinx Rev Control was a viable option, as was UB devotion and I think 2-3 more were competitive but maybe 1.5 tier. Now, we have Temur energy, Temur black energy, and Sultai energy all vying for the top spot. But trailing, and still reasonably competitive, there's Ramunap Red (aggro), Drake Haven (combo control), Approach (control), and several others. Energy is like black devotion in this Standard. I heard so many complaints about Pack Rat dominating Standard it was ridiculous. It's a wonder I didn't quit playing right then! So isn't this just an old hat argument? How is it really any different?
I really like snek. The pros say Temur is better and I believe them, but I so prefer playing Siphoner over Servant that I don't care. I'm okay playing tier 1.5-2 for Store Championship. If I had a GP or a PPTQ though, it would be hard to not play Temur. I should play Temur, but I should have been playing it all along in order to play it optimally. For FNM, I think it's BM to play snek more than half the time because it's too good.
Still, much as I like snek, I'm not that excited to play it. I can't tell if I've become jaded or not, but I remember being excited every week to tweak 2-3 cards in my Abzan Control deck and see how it worked in a 4 round tournament with two mirrors and green devotion. I'll keep snek together and play it if it's competitive when I want to be competitive. I'm more excited to play Constrictor in a Merfolk Explore shell, though. I've just been playing snek for a year. While the U splash, Rogue Refiner and Hostage Taker have been fun, it's still kinda the same.
I started the Temur thread by default. It finally got a comment. By someone whose sig says that they aren't that excited to play temur. I am the only one who has responded, even though I haven't played the deck since before Ixalan dropped.
While the meaning of "good enough to change anything in standard," isn't clear to me, I would like to discuss it. If it means "knock Temur and Ramunap out of tier 1 and 1a status," then maybe. But I'd bet that between Slaughter the Strong, Jadelight Ranger, Azor, Dire Fleet Poisoner, Tetzimoc, Rekindling Phoenix, Thrashing Brontodon, Angrath, Atzocan Seer, the new lords, Kumena, Champion of Dusk and Dusk Legion Zealot, multiple Rivals cards will affect tier 2 at least. I would be surprised not to see Thrashing Brontodon in Temur sideboards.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
To call cawblade a creature deck is just wrong. It was a control deck.
Pack rat didn’t dominate ever. Was good, but never dominant. Nothing has been this oppressive since affinity. I don’t think the mechanic is broken, just lacks any real answers in the format.
Red is the next closest competitor and it just looses to temur. There is one t1 deck and the rest are leagues behind.
I have to agree with hoser. I prefer snake to temur. I consistently beat temur. But it’s still energy that focuses on hub and attune to function.
It’s a boring format now and that will do more damage to any LGS than banning will.
It's funny, I haven't played against, not seen a Temur energy deck in months at my LGS. I can see both sides of the argument for banning something out of energy. I can understand people being tired of seeing energy dominate at every tournament. I don't think that energy is too good as a mechanic, I just think the following sets were too powered down. Also the inability to interact with energy has made it too strong.
I'm really glad wizards banned Copter, the cat and aetherworks marvel. I personally don't feel anywhere near the amount of anger/disappointment at playing in my LGS compared to playing against an aetherworks or crazy cat lady deck. In fact, our tiny standard scene has been pretty fun as of late. I think most people are far less concerned about playing against energy than they were the former broken/boring to play against decks I mentioned before.
Seems like the solution is to go with what the majority of people want. If an energy dominated environment means people aren't coming to FNM, wizards should ban attune. If banning attune will cause more people to leave than it will encourage them to come back, then it should stay in.
Banning attune may not be as big a deal as everyone thinks. It's not as though the entire energy theme will suddenly be worthless. It may mean people have to re-tune their decks, perhaps take a color out or change out some dual colored mana symbol cards. Energy would still be a very strong deck, however, it may bring it down enough that RR and some lower-tiered decks suddenly become playable.
Energy won't become unplayable, more decks will be playable, people are tired of Kaladesh block dominating standard, I think banning attune with aether or servant of the conduit could be a good idea.
I personally am very happy with the previous bans. It shows Wizards is at least trying to clean up their messes. The true fix is that R&D quits making such low-powered and boring sets. Of course everyone will mostly ignore under powered sets if there's still a powerful one in standard.
I meant that a deck like Caw Blade used a powerful creature as part of its main strategy, so I wrote that erroneously. Some Control decks use creatures to win (Torrential Gearhulk, Dragonlord Ojutai) while others use non-creature means (Lantern Control, Dynavolt Tower).
Nothing has been as oppressive as Energy decks since Affinity? That's funny, because I seem to remember Cat Combo being waaaaay more oppressive. And Emrakul before that. And Smuggler's Copter before that. I remember oppressive, and Energy isn't oppressive. It's good, don't get me wrong, but it's not oppressive. Besides, they did print an answer in the form of Solemnity. It's no different than the other hoser cards people play in Modern. Sometimes you have to put something like that in your sideboard to deal with your bad match ups. The problem is that the energy cards are often really good, even when you turn off the energy knob. Rogue Refiner is still a 3/2 for 3 that cantrips. Glorybringer doesn't even use energy. The hoser card isn't like Stony Silence or Leyline of Sanctity, where the deck just dies when the opponent plays it. Just becomes less powerful and synergistic.
The LGS can play a hand in spicing it up. They can reward players who bring brews. It could be "pauper Standard" or "block constructed" or something not normal Standard to make it more fun. I don't like the mentality that if WOTC doesn't do something, all the LGSs will suffer. It makes it sound like the LGS owners have no hand in their own fate, can do nothing to motivate their local players to diversify or enjoy the game.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Go snek,go