I like 2 Ulamogs. It's possible to cast thanks to Nissa's Renewal, but that's still hard as hell. I don't like to see him in my opening hand at it is a potential target for Lost Legacy post board so I like to have alternatives.
Shock sometimes we just need quick removal. Also against combo.
Elder Deep-Fiend I usually side them in when I side out some combo pieces. Good tempo card and we can emerge it off relatively cheaply.
I am still working on Jeskai control version but my feeling now is that Marvel build is just better. We need to sacrifice 6-8 control slots for combo in control deck and it's pretty hard to do it without compromises.
Went 3-0 last night (store only does 3 rounds). So overall since I started playing the deck I'm 7-2 in matches and 16-5 in games and I'll be playing the deck today at Game Day. I still think I need to change up the manabase some; due to I do run into mana issues at times (color flood); but overall I'm pleased with how it is playing. I do feel that as long as you setup the deck properly it can be competitive against any of the other decks; including Mardu Vehicles.
Psy
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I'm on a controlling version of Jeskai Saheeli and played it for the first time yesterday at Game Day. I went 4-1 first time playing the deck, only losing to Jund Energy round one because I played incredibly sloppily. I could have won if I was thinking and playing better, but I wasn't yet. Went on to beat UG Energy (budget brew), GW Tokens, Jeskai Saheeli mirror and straight Jeskai Control all in a 2-0 sweep. Deck seems great. Didn't play against Mardu, though. Luckily only a couple guys are on it at my store!
I won Game Day this afternoon with a Jeskai control version of the deck. Since I went 2-1 yesterday at a different store, I am 7-2 for the weekend and picked up one playmat.
I rejigged the deck to play against the creature-based aggro decks that are all over the place and only lost to the mirror yesterday (he drew better mana) and mana screw against BG today. I beat the same player in the finals. This rejigging meant running 2 MD Fumigates, 1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk and additional point removal with another Fumigate and more removal in the board.
Aside: I can't believe there is practically no activity in this thread.
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
I have been running jeskai for about a month or so, but its alot different from what other people are running. I run 6 plains walker (1 dovin, 1 nahiri, 3 saheeli and 1 gideon) i was run 2 fumigates and 1 radiant flames mb. I really like the cataclysmic gearhulk as a reset of sorts and if they get a head again blink it with guardian.. just a few thoughts let me know what u guys think.
I like the Cataclysmic Gearhulk in heavy aggro environments but for me it's always the last card I select for the deck. You're right, you can blink it with the cat or even copy it with Saheeli when you fall behind on board position. It wouldn't make the deck if it weren't something you can fetch with Nahiri or Saheeli though. It doesn't do you a whole lot of good against BG when they opt to keep a massive Gearhulk and some other big monster. That's an issue for me as there are a bunch of BG decks in my store. I'm also playing six Planeswalkers but I'm running 2 Nahiri and 4 Saheeli. (I can't think of a good reason not to run 4). I could see running a Chandra or two, but I'm not a fan of Dovin or Gideon in the deck.
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
I ended up getting 4th at Game Day over the weekend. As I suspected after playing at FNM the night before; how my manabase was setup came back to bite me. I only lost 1 match; and in that match against Mardu vehicles and I ended up losing games 1 and 3; due to not drawing a red source of mana until turn 5 in game one and turn 6 in game 3 (both were tap lands). So I ended up with a handful of removal that I couldn't play; when I died in both games.
When I got back home I recounted my mana sources and found that I had more W sources then I really needed (the only cards that I have MD that require W is Fumigate and Nahiri) and too few sources of R. When I first put the deck together I had more spells that required a W source in the MD then I do now as I've adjusted the deck to fit my meta; but I never adjusted the manabase until yesterday. So I pulled out two plains and added a Bluff and Mountain (which might get changed to a Needle Spires; but I'm trying to avoid adding another land that comes into play tapped.
Psy
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@m@lcontent Do you mind posting your SB? I'm playing a pretty control version but dont have a real SB plan yet as I'm just getting back into standard. I've seen a lot of spell quellers in top lists online but not sure where they come in. Not sure if they're more for control matchups as an additional body that can counter or aggro to help defend against early beats.
Went 3-1-1 at an FNM beating UB control a GW humans deck, and an abzan aggro deck. Lost to the mirror and tied another UB control deck, but I didn't have the best 75. (3 MD TiTi because I just knew there was aggro around but I was told it may not be a great choice with all the removal being played in standard)
1 Fumigate (BG)
1 Radiant Flames (Vehicles, GW tokens)
2 Negate (Mirror, BU)
2 Dispel (Mirror, BU)
2 Shock (Mirror, Vehicles)
3 Spell Queller (Mirror, BU, Vehicles)
1 Stasis Snare (Mirror, anything creature based and BU -- It's a nice out to eot Gearhulk if you can't counter it)
2 Fragmentize (Vehicles, anything that might bring in Authority of the Consuls or whatever it's called)
1 Linvala, the Preserver (anything Aggro)
I find this board gives you the flexibility to shore up against all the major decks in the format. The Spell Quellers are excellent in the mirror as they can interrupt the combo or help you force through your own. You can also just start playing the standard control game and just play your threats at the end of your opponent's turn. They are okay against the BG decks as they can slow down their aggression and draw out their removal spells possibly creating openings for your cats.
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
I like the Cataclysmic Gearhulk in heavy aggro environments but for me it's always the last card I select for the deck. You're right, you can blink it with the cat or even copy it with Saheeli when you fall behind on board position. It wouldn't make the deck if it weren't something you can fetch with Nahiri or Saheeli though. It doesn't do you a whole lot of good against BG when they opt to keep a massive Gearhulk and some other big monster. That's an issue for me as there are a bunch of BG decks in my store. I'm also playing six Planeswalkers but I'm running 2 Nahiri and 4 Saheeli. (I can't think of a good reason not to run 4). I could see running a Chandra or two, but I'm not a fan of Dovin or Gideon in the deck.
I see where your coming from on dovin and gideon, but if they dont deal with them their in trouble and at the least they buy u an extra turn. Try testing with 1 dovin if u get a chance u might be surprised. The +1 helps u keep a creature from crewing a vehicle after a board sweep to buy u some more time to look for a removal spell.
I've seen a lot of spell quellers in top lists online but not sure where they come in. Not sure if they're more for control matchups as an additional body that can counter or aggro to help defend against early beats.
I run 3 Spell Quellers in the side. I use them in matches to where I have the potential to see a bunch of Negates or Dispels; i.e. the mirror; Aetherfulx Reservoir storm type decks (which one of the better players in the store plays) and other control decks. I also side them in when I want to pivot from the combo into a more controlling deck.
While they can be removed via creature removal; they dodge the other player trying to protect their spells via Negate or Dispel; which has won me games when the other person player is expecting me to use a counter spell and they are holding a counter of their own in hand and instead I flash in Spell Queller. Which they don't have a way to stop from countering their spell.
Psy
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Thanks for the reply. That is a very good point with the spell quellers vs negate or dipel that I hadn't really thought about. Also, have you ever found value in using saheeli to bounce a queller that has something sorcery speed exiled? That way your opponent can cast the spell if they kill the queller. I know it's a corner case scenario but it's come up while playing online once or twice.
I don't get to play as much as I would like nor do I play online; so that scenario hasn't come up for me. But they are very effect when your opponent sides in Negates and Dispels to use against you. Figuring that they will be good against your instant speed counters or removal; but then realize that they can't use them to counter a Spell Queller.
I also like the fact that if it goes to a game 3; that they help make the other player think about playing any 4 mana or less spell; if I have 3 mana open; knowing that I could have a Queller in hand even if I don't. Which was one of the best parts of playing them in U/W Flash. The; do they have it or don't they factor can help push the other player to play differently or make a play mistake that ends up helping you win the game/match.
Psy
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Currently Playing:
Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
1 Fumigate (BG)
1 Radiant Flames (Vehicles, GW tokens)
2 Negate (Mirror, BU)
2 Dispel (Mirror, BU)
2 Shock (Mirror, Vehicles)
3 Spell Queller (Mirror, BU, Vehicles)
1 Stasis Snare (Mirror, anything creature based and BU -- It's a nice out to eot Gearhulk if you can't counter it)
2 Fragmentize (Vehicles, anything that might bring in Authority of the Consuls or whatever it's called)
1 Linvala, the Preserver (anything Aggro)
I find this board gives you the flexibility to shore up against all the major decks in the format. The Spell Quellers are excellent in the mirror as they can interrupt the combo or help you force through your own. You can also just start playing the standard control game and just play your threats at the end of your opponent's turn. They are okay against the BG decks as they can slow down their aggression and draw out their removal spells possibly creating openings for your cats.
What's your full deck list if you don't mind? I've been wavering around a bunch of variants, but overall just feeling down on the Control Copy Cat as a whole as of late.
1 Fumigate (BG)
1 Radiant Flames (Vehicles, GW tokens)
2 Negate (Mirror, BU)
2 Dispel (Mirror, BU)
2 Shock (Mirror, Vehicles)
3 Spell Queller (Mirror, BU, Vehicles)
1 Stasis Snare (Mirror, anything creature based and BU -- It's a nice out to eot Gearhulk if you can't counter it)
2 Fragmentize (Vehicles, anything that might bring in Authority of the Consuls or whatever it's called)
1 Linvala, the Preserver (anything Aggro)
I find this board gives you the flexibility to shore up against all the major decks in the format. The Spell Quellers are excellent in the mirror as they can interrupt the combo or help you force through your own. You can also just start playing the standard control game and just play your threats at the end of your opponent's turn. They are okay against the BG decks as they can slow down their aggression and draw out their removal spells possibly creating openings for your cats.
What's your full deck list if you don't mind? I've been wavering around a bunch of variants, but overall just feeling down on the Control Copy Cat as a whole as of late.
It's pretty much the Donegan list from SCG, except instead of 2x Oath of Jace, I run +1 Nahiri and +1 Guardian. I also run 61 cards for the Cataclysmic Gearhulk. I think running <4 of the combo is an error. I really like Nahiri! And with 61 lands and lots of card draw I am not stressed about the extra card. In fact, if I were to cut a card to go down to 60, I would cut an Island.
Personally, I really like the control version, but then I've been a control player at heart since the late 90's. I long for the days when you could Forbid and pay the buyback with Squee, Goblin Nabob/Shard Phoenix. Timng and sequencing are mor forgiving. If you are not sure about your play, you simply say "go," counter or kill whatever they have and then draw (at least one) more card. It's so cool to have a format where counterspells are viable again. That said, I am thinking of switching to a 4C version for tonight. There's something to be said for getting underneath people with faster mana and I think I like the look of Tamiyo and Nissa and want to give them a try. We'll see if I have time to do some tinkering after work.
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
So in playing the last 2 weekends, I ran into similar problems both times. If a planeswalker or larger creature, like Verduous Gearhulk, it can be tough to get them off the board. My solution was to swap red for black and splash for Saheeli. It has been working pretty well for me so far and this allows me to bring in Sorin, Grim Nemesis as an alternate win condition. I've played a few games on xMage and the deck still handles rather nicely.
Adding in Gideon and Sorin as additional ways to apply pressure has felt very good. The combo is almost an afterthought at times, but can still win on the spot. Its just a little hidden in this deck.
To format a decklist here on MTGS, just type it all out, then highlight it and click on the little deck icon on the menu bar right above the text window. Start at the left and you'll see the standard icons for Bold, italic and underline...keep going left and you'll see three card icons. The one to the far left is for decks.
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
I've been playing around with 4 color copycat a fair amount and I'm interested in bouncing some ideas around. I got some reps in with the deck in the 4 events I played gameday weekend (had to win my playset of that promo Yahenni's Expertise) and I piloted it to a second (out of ~60) place finish at the 1k PPTQ in Austin yesterday. I sleeved up the following 75 for the event-
The sideboard plan for the main decks (adjusted depending on what I see) is
Vehicles-
-3 Oath of Nissa
-2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
+2 Aether Meltdown
+2 Natural State
+1 Chandra's Pyrohelix
Chandra stays in in place of pyrohelix if I'm on the play and I think they're heavy on the 3 drops, if the reverse is true the second pyrohelix comes in.
Constrictor-
-2 Aether Meltdown
-3 Oath of Nissa
-1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
+3 Fumigate
+2 Confiscation Coup
+1 Aetherwind Basker
The Basker/Boat swap doesn't happen if they're playing Murders, Liliana, or a creature suite that the Boat is good against (Gonti, Sylvan Advocate, Tireless Tracker, Glint-Sleeve Siphoner)
Round One (Vehicles)
I played a guy I know from one of the stores I play at, who I had been hanging out with before the event (Am I the only one to whom this always seems to happen?). Game one I threw removal and blockers at his guys until I stuck a boat turn five and killed him with it. Game two I got Marvel online early on, stabilized, and eventually valued him out of the game when I was playing more combo pieces than he could remove.
2-0 (1-0)
Round Two (Vehicles)
Game one I stabilized and valued him out of the game, but it took a long time. Game two I kept a super greedy 7 with a single Botanical Sanctum, Servant of the Conduit, and sideboard cards. I never drew the second land and scooped on turn four in the interest of time. Game three we ran out of times and turn five passed with him using his last card in hand (Unlicensed Disintegration) on combo that I ran out, holding more in hand. Feels bad.
1-1-1 (1-0-1)
Round Three (Jeskai Copycat)
Game one he went to five and I was on the play. I comboed him out turn five. Game two I went to six and he countered/removed all my stuff until I died to Gearhulks. Game three I stuck a Marvel and eventually played more combo than he had interaction for.
2-1 (2-0-1)
Round Four (Constrictor)
Game one looked bad when he played his second Gearhulk but I Marveled into answers every combat for the rest of the game and eventually got there. Game two Marvel let me Confiscate his Gearhulk mid combat, which was especially unfortunate for his other attacking creatures. Both games were won on the back of high skill and tight plays, and were completely deserved.
2-0 (3-0-1)
Round Five (Constrictor)
Game one I stabilized with Marvel and comboed him out. Game two I went to six and got absolutely blown out by Transgress the Mind. The game went on for a long time after that but in hindsight I wish I had just scooped to it because we ran out of time in game three.
1-1-1 (3-0-2)
Round Six (Abzan ????)
Game one my opponent played Sylvan Advocate, Painful Truths, and Ob Nixilis Reignited before I combo killed him. I brought in 2 Fumigates and Confiscation Coups thinking he was some kind of midrange creature deck that just had an unlucky game, but after I valued him out of game two and asked him about his deck it turns out it's a control deck that plays like six creatures total. It seemed weird to me but we were playing for top 8 so it couldn't have been that bad, probably just a metagame brew that planned on fighting a ton of Vehicles and Snakes (which, given the field that I saw, was a spot on read).
2-0 (4-0-2)
Top 8 First Round (Vehicles)
I'm playing my friend from round one again, apparently I was his only loss. Game one I Marveled into combo. Game two I was getting beat down, stuck a boat, but made a super disrespectful block and paid for it. He swung in with a Toolcraft Exemplar and I put the boat in front of it despite his untapped Cultivators Caravan, and got my boat Shocked. In hindsight it would be pretty unlikely for him to be bluffing there given the board state, and losing the boat was one of the only ways for me to lose that game (which I did promptly thereafter) so this was probably my biggest punt of the tournament (possibly excepting the keep round 2 game 2). Fortunately for me his draw game 3 wasn't ideal, and as I was getting further ahead on board he risked tapping out for Gideon hoping I didn't have it (I had it).
2-1 (5-0-2)
Semifinals (Vehicles)
Game one his draw was too fast for my mediocre one to keep up. Marvel got me there in game two. Game three was really interactive and close, and I wound up having to just go for it at 4 life on a board that left me dead to any removal. He didn't have it.
2-1 (6-0-2)
Finals (Vehicles)
My opponent and I split the money ($220 each) and just played for the invitation. This turned out to be a good decision, as he was on the play game one and his hand was the literal nuts, killed me turn 4. Game two was close and I thought I had stabilized when I pyrohelixed his Veteran Motorist and Gideon when he took it to 1 for the emblem, but he just played another one next turn and I couldn't keep up.
0-2 (7-1-2)
Overall I'm happy with how the deck played. I think the Vehicles matchup is fine or even favorable because of Aether Meltdown, and the Constrictor matchup is good as well (albeit swingy) depending on their build. It's specific cards (Gideon) rather than archetypes that seem to be problems for the most part.
As far as my own card choices go, I've played around with a few builds of the deck and I tried some things I went back and forth on, that might be good in a different metagame but not this one (Tamiyo, Eldritch Evolution, Elder Deep-Fiend). One decision I think isn't even close is Aetherworks Marvel. I think playing a non-Jeskai control copycat deck without 4 is just a mistake. I played it without, and then with 2 for a while to see how it played, then 3, and haven't looked back. If you're already playing the best enablers anyway (attune, servant, refiner, harnessed lighting) you may as well cash in. It also interacts incredibly well with Aether Meltdown, which is probably the best card in the format against Vehicles. Another huge factor that I think a lot of people might not consider (I didn't until I played it) is how much more likely you are to find your sideboard cards. It adds some randomness and complexity to your decision tree when you have to think about when to spin and what you're hoping to find, but the sheer power level is absolutely worth it. The turns when you spin multiple times and combo them out from an empty board or cast sideboard sorceries during your opponent's combat feel absolutely busted.
One thing I'm interested in hearing about it how you guys deal with Gideon (specifically in a Vehicles context) and Walking Ballista. Those are far and away the two cards that give me the most trouble, not close. Is there any tech to bring against those? Deadlock Trap? Sharing is caring, any and all spicy tech appreciated.
I've been playing around with 4 color copycat a fair amount and I'm interested in bouncing some ideas around. One thing I'm interested in hearing about it how you guys deal with Gideon (specifically in a Vehicles context) and Walking Ballista. Those are far and away the two cards that give me the most trouble, not close. Is there any tech to bring against those? Deadlock Trap? Sharing is caring, any and all spicy tech appreciated.
I don't play the 4C version; but something that I have found to be effective; if I don't counter Gideon when he is cast; is to wait until they make him into a creature and use Brutal Expulsion to bounce him back into their hand and also do 2 damage to one of their creatures. It also works well in bouncing any vehicle that they have crewed and it is great for making sure that Scrapheap Scrounger's don't return from the graveyard. Since if the two damage kills the Scrounger, then it is exiled instead of going to the graveyard.
The bounce means that he can still be played; if they have the mana to do so; but it is mana that they have to spend on recasting him again instead of playing more spells and also saves me a from taking damage. Plus it can be flashbacked with the Gearhulk.
Psy
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One thing I'm interested in hearing about it how you guys deal with Gideon (specifically in a Vehicles context) and Walking Ballista. Those are far and away the two cards that give me the most trouble, not close. Is there any tech to bring against those? Deadlock Trap? Sharing is caring, any and all spicy tech appreciated.
With the Aether Hubs and the Marvel I've been trying out To The Slaughter out of the board and haven't ran into a situation where I couldn't cast it yet with a Gideon on line. You might have to tweak your 75 though to try to support it better.
I have been toying with different 4C lists but have not tried a list with Marvel yet, is it really worth it? I have been also maining 1x Nahiri to get rid of the stupid hoser enchantment consul of the authorities, have you ran into that at all during your tourney? It also can exile scrapheap scrounger after it attacks. I find the best way to get rid of walking ballista is oath of chandra, I play oath then it's blinkable with guardian. Also you can get rid of gideon with the oath of chandra trigger at EOT if you can get it down to 2. Also did you face down any Thalias in that tourney?
I have been toying with different 4C lists but have not tried a list with Marvel yet, is it really worth it? I have been also maining 1x Nahiri to get rid of the stupid hoser enchantment consul of the authorities, have you ran into that at all during your tourney? It also can exile scrapheap scrounger after it attacks. I find the best way to get rid of walking ballista is oath of chandra, I play oath then it's blinkable with guardian. Also you can get rid of gideon with the oath of chandra trigger at EOT if you can get it down to 2. Also did you face down any Thalias in that tourney?
Having played with and without for a few weeks each I think Marvel is definitely the way to go. The only common decks that have the white for Authority of the Consuls are Vehicles (against which I already board in Natural State) and Jeskai (against which I bring in Negate). With Marvel though it's not the end of the world if they stick one, since the backup plan of valuing them out of the game and eventually killing them with a boat/thopters/random creatures is perfectly fine (I actually win about half the games this way). I did face multiple Thalias, she's never really mattered because she dies to Harnessed Lightning/Chandra/Boat/Pyrohelix/everything else in the format. Most of the time I see Thalia I'm actually glad she's not Pia or Depala, since those often mean more damage for you the turn they come down and Thalia doesn't.
Also I used to run Oath of Chandra, I took it out for the main deck Aether Meltdown because I wanted instant speed interaction for Vehicles + I can already turn the cat into removal with the boat, but I didn't really consider the other clause; it might be worth trying to fit a couple back in.
How is Nahiri for you when they don't have Authority of the Consuls? I haven't actually tried her. I've played Tamiyo and currently play Chandra, and theorycrafted to myself that Nahiri would probably be worse than Chandra most of the time but I don't know if that's true.
@w03havoc To the Slaughter seems interesting. Do you have a swamp in the board for it, or just hope to cast it with hubs/Marvel? Also, what's your spread of card types look like? How often do you have to play out of your way to turn on Delirium for it?
I have been toying with different 4C lists but have not tried a list with Marvel yet, is it really worth it? I have been also maining 1x Nahiri to get rid of the stupid hoser enchantment consul of the authorities, have you ran into that at all during your tourney? It also can exile scrapheap scrounger after it attacks. I find the best way to get rid of walking ballista is oath of chandra, I play oath then it's blinkable with guardian. Also you can get rid of gideon with the oath of chandra trigger at EOT if you can get it down to 2. Also did you face down any Thalias in that tourney?
Having played with and without for a few weeks each I think Marvel is definitely the way to go. The only common decks that have the white for Authority of the Consuls are Vehicles (against which I already board in Natural State) and Jeskai (against which I bring in Negate). With Marvel though it's not the end of the world if they stick one, since the backup plan of valuing them out of the game and eventually killing them with a boat/thopters/random creatures is perfectly fine (I actually win about half the games this way). I did face multiple Thalias, she's never really mattered because she dies to Harnessed Lightning/Chandra/Boat/Pyrohelix/everything else in the format. Most of the time I see Thalia I'm actually glad she's not Pia or Depala, since those often mean more damage for you the turn they come down and Thalia doesn't.
Also I used to run Oath of Chandra, I took it out for the main deck Aether Meltdown because I wanted instant speed interaction for Vehicles + I can already turn the cat into removal with the boat, but I didn't really consider the other clause; it might be worth trying to fit a couple back in.
How is Nahiri for you when they don't have Authority of the Consuls? I haven't actually tried her. I've played Tamiyo and currently play Chandra, and theorycrafted to myself that Nahiri would probably be worse than Chandra most of the time but I don't know if that's true.
@w03havoc To the Slaughter seems interesting. Do you have a swamp in the board for it, or just hope to cast it with hubs/Marvel? Also, what's your spread of card types look like? How often do you have to play out of your way to turn on Delirium for it?
The Nahiri has been solid in the deck , however so has Chandra. I wouldn't replace the Chandra but was a nice compliment to her. How important is running 4 marvel would you say over , lets say 3. 4 seems like so many...did you ever have a situation where additional copies were sitting in your hand? Also would you ever see yourself cutting down to 1 boat or is it that good? Also what is your opinion on EDF? I know a list was running 3x MD that just won an SCG classic..
4 Aether Hub
2 Botanical Sanctum
2 Cinder Glade
4 Spire of Industry
2 Evolving Wilds
3 Forest
1 Island
2 Mountain
1 Plains
Combo
3 Saheeli Rai
4 Felidar Guardian
Marvel Stuff
4 Aetherworks Marvel
1 World Breaker
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 Aetherwind Basker
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Attune with Aether
4 Servant of the Conduit
2 Vessel of Nascency
1 Nissa's Renewal
3 Woodweaver's Puzzleknot
3 Whirler Virtuoso
3 Rogue Refiner
3 Harnessed Lightning
2 Authority of the Consuls
2 Fragmentize
2 Kozilek's Return
3 Negate
2 Fumigate
2 Shock
2 Elder Deep-Fiend
Marvel Targets:
Support:
Sideboard choices:
I am still working on Jeskai control version but my feeling now is that Marvel build is just better. We need to sacrifice 6-8 control slots for combo in control deck and it's pretty hard to do it without compromises.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
I rejigged the deck to play against the creature-based aggro decks that are all over the place and only lost to the mirror yesterday (he drew better mana) and mana screw against BG today. I beat the same player in the finals. This rejigging meant running 2 MD Fumigates, 1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk and additional point removal with another Fumigate and more removal in the board.
Aside: I can't believe there is practically no activity in this thread.
I like the Cataclysmic Gearhulk in heavy aggro environments but for me it's always the last card I select for the deck. You're right, you can blink it with the cat or even copy it with Saheeli when you fall behind on board position. It wouldn't make the deck if it weren't something you can fetch with Nahiri or Saheeli though. It doesn't do you a whole lot of good against BG when they opt to keep a massive Gearhulk and some other big monster. That's an issue for me as there are a bunch of BG decks in my store. I'm also playing six Planeswalkers but I'm running 2 Nahiri and 4 Saheeli. (I can't think of a good reason not to run 4). I could see running a Chandra or two, but I'm not a fan of Dovin or Gideon in the deck.
When I got back home I recounted my mana sources and found that I had more W sources then I really needed (the only cards that I have MD that require W is Fumigate and Nahiri) and too few sources of R. When I first put the deck together I had more spells that required a W source in the MD then I do now as I've adjusted the deck to fit my meta; but I never adjusted the manabase until yesterday. So I pulled out two plains and added a Bluff and Mountain (which might get changed to a Needle Spires; but I'm trying to avoid adding another land that comes into play tapped.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
Went 3-1-1 at an FNM beating UB control a GW humans deck, and an abzan aggro deck. Lost to the mirror and tied another UB control deck, but I didn't have the best 75. (3 MD TiTi because I just knew there was aggro around but I was told it may not be a great choice with all the removal being played in standard)
This is what I'm going with next FNM
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/25-01-17-saheeli-twin/
Any thought would be greatly appreciated.
1 Fumigate (BG)
1 Radiant Flames (Vehicles, GW tokens)
2 Negate (Mirror, BU)
2 Dispel (Mirror, BU)
2 Shock (Mirror, Vehicles)
3 Spell Queller (Mirror, BU, Vehicles)
1 Stasis Snare (Mirror, anything creature based and BU -- It's a nice out to eot Gearhulk if you can't counter it)
2 Fragmentize (Vehicles, anything that might bring in Authority of the Consuls or whatever it's called)
1 Linvala, the Preserver (anything Aggro)
I find this board gives you the flexibility to shore up against all the major decks in the format. The Spell Quellers are excellent in the mirror as they can interrupt the combo or help you force through your own. You can also just start playing the standard control game and just play your threats at the end of your opponent's turn. They are okay against the BG decks as they can slow down their aggression and draw out their removal spells possibly creating openings for your cats.
I see where your coming from on dovin and gideon, but if they dont deal with them their in trouble and at the least they buy u an extra turn. Try testing with 1 dovin if u get a chance u might be surprised. The +1 helps u keep a creature from crewing a vehicle after a board sweep to buy u some more time to look for a removal spell.
I run 3 Spell Quellers in the side. I use them in matches to where I have the potential to see a bunch of Negates or Dispels; i.e. the mirror; Aetherfulx Reservoir storm type decks (which one of the better players in the store plays) and other control decks. I also side them in when I want to pivot from the combo into a more controlling deck.
While they can be removed via creature removal; they dodge the other player trying to protect their spells via Negate or Dispel; which has won me games when the other person player is expecting me to use a counter spell and they are holding a counter of their own in hand and instead I flash in Spell Queller. Which they don't have a way to stop from countering their spell.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
Thanks for the reply. That is a very good point with the spell quellers vs negate or dipel that I hadn't really thought about. Also, have you ever found value in using saheeli to bounce a queller that has something sorcery speed exiled? That way your opponent can cast the spell if they kill the queller. I know it's a corner case scenario but it's come up while playing online once or twice.
I also like the fact that if it goes to a game 3; that they help make the other player think about playing any 4 mana or less spell; if I have 3 mana open; knowing that I could have a Queller in hand even if I don't. Which was one of the best parts of playing them in U/W Flash. The; do they have it or don't they factor can help push the other player to play differently or make a play mistake that ends up helping you win the game/match.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
What's your full deck list if you don't mind? I've been wavering around a bunch of variants, but overall just feeling down on the Control Copy Cat as a whole as of late.
It's pretty much the Donegan list from SCG, except instead of 2x Oath of Jace, I run +1 Nahiri and +1 Guardian. I also run 61 cards for the Cataclysmic Gearhulk. I think running <4 of the combo is an error. I really like Nahiri! And with 61 lands and lots of card draw I am not stressed about the extra card. In fact, if I were to cut a card to go down to 60, I would cut an Island.
Personally, I really like the control version, but then I've been a control player at heart since the late 90's. I long for the days when you could Forbid and pay the buyback with Squee, Goblin Nabob/Shard Phoenix. Timng and sequencing are mor forgiving. If you are not sure about your play, you simply say "go," counter or kill whatever they have and then draw (at least one) more card. It's so cool to have a format where counterspells are viable again. That said, I am thinking of switching to a 4C version for tonight. There's something to be said for getting underneath people with faster mana and I think I like the look of Tamiyo and Nissa and want to give them a try. We'll see if I have time to do some tinkering after work.
Here is a link for those interested as I'm not quite sure how to format decks on here. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/saheeli-twin-copy-3/
Adding in Gideon and Sorin as additional ways to apply pressure has felt very good. The combo is almost an afterthought at times, but can still win on the spot. Its just a little hidden in this deck.
Let me know what you guys think!
Elmo
To format a decklist here on MTGS, just type it all out, then highlight it and click on the little deck icon on the menu bar right above the text window. Start at the left and you'll see the standard icons for Bold, italic and underline...keep going left and you'll see three card icons. The one to the far left is for decks.
4 Attune with Aether
3 Oath of Nissa
4 Servant of the Conduit
4 Harnessed Lightning
2 Aether Meltdown
4 Rogue Refiner
2 Whirler Virtuoso
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Felidar Guardian
4 Aetherworks Marvel
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
4 Botanical Sanctum
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Inspiring Vantage
1 Evolving Wilds
4 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Island
3 Fumigate
2 Confiscation Coup
1 Aetherwind Basker
2 Aether Meltdown
2 Natural State
2 Chandra's Pyrohelix
3 Negate
The sideboard plan for the main decks (adjusted depending on what I see) is
Vehicles-
-3 Oath of Nissa
-2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
+2 Aether Meltdown
+2 Natural State
+1 Chandra's Pyrohelix
Chandra stays in in place of pyrohelix if I'm on the play and I think they're heavy on the 3 drops, if the reverse is true the second pyrohelix comes in.
Constrictor-
-2 Aether Meltdown
-3 Oath of Nissa
-1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
+3 Fumigate
+2 Confiscation Coup
+1 Aetherwind Basker
The Basker/Boat swap doesn't happen if they're playing Murders, Liliana, or a creature suite that the Boat is good against (Gonti, Sylvan Advocate, Tireless Tracker, Glint-Sleeve Siphoner)
Jeskai-
-2 Aether Meltdown
-3 Oath of Nissa
+2 Chandra's Pyrohelix
+3 Negate
Round One (Vehicles)
I played a guy I know from one of the stores I play at, who I had been hanging out with before the event (Am I the only one to whom this always seems to happen?). Game one I threw removal and blockers at his guys until I stuck a boat turn five and killed him with it. Game two I got Marvel online early on, stabilized, and eventually valued him out of the game when I was playing more combo pieces than he could remove.
2-0 (1-0)
Round Two (Vehicles)
Game one I stabilized and valued him out of the game, but it took a long time. Game two I kept a super greedy 7 with a single Botanical Sanctum, Servant of the Conduit, and sideboard cards. I never drew the second land and scooped on turn four in the interest of time. Game three we ran out of times and turn five passed with him using his last card in hand (Unlicensed Disintegration) on combo that I ran out, holding more in hand. Feels bad.
1-1-1 (1-0-1)
Round Three (Jeskai Copycat)
Game one he went to five and I was on the play. I comboed him out turn five. Game two I went to six and he countered/removed all my stuff until I died to Gearhulks. Game three I stuck a Marvel and eventually played more combo than he had interaction for.
2-1 (2-0-1)
Round Four (Constrictor)
Game one looked bad when he played his second Gearhulk but I Marveled into answers every combat for the rest of the game and eventually got there. Game two Marvel let me Confiscate his Gearhulk mid combat, which was especially unfortunate for his other attacking creatures. Both games were won on the back of high skill and tight plays, and were completely deserved.
2-0 (3-0-1)
Round Five (Constrictor)
Game one I stabilized with Marvel and comboed him out. Game two I went to six and got absolutely blown out by Transgress the Mind. The game went on for a long time after that but in hindsight I wish I had just scooped to it because we ran out of time in game three.
1-1-1 (3-0-2)
Round Six (Abzan ????)
Game one my opponent played Sylvan Advocate, Painful Truths, and Ob Nixilis Reignited before I combo killed him. I brought in 2 Fumigates and Confiscation Coups thinking he was some kind of midrange creature deck that just had an unlucky game, but after I valued him out of game two and asked him about his deck it turns out it's a control deck that plays like six creatures total. It seemed weird to me but we were playing for top 8 so it couldn't have been that bad, probably just a metagame brew that planned on fighting a ton of Vehicles and Snakes (which, given the field that I saw, was a spot on read).
2-0 (4-0-2)
Top 8 First Round (Vehicles)
I'm playing my friend from round one again, apparently I was his only loss. Game one I Marveled into combo. Game two I was getting beat down, stuck a boat, but made a super disrespectful block and paid for it. He swung in with a Toolcraft Exemplar and I put the boat in front of it despite his untapped Cultivators Caravan, and got my boat Shocked. In hindsight it would be pretty unlikely for him to be bluffing there given the board state, and losing the boat was one of the only ways for me to lose that game (which I did promptly thereafter) so this was probably my biggest punt of the tournament (possibly excepting the keep round 2 game 2). Fortunately for me his draw game 3 wasn't ideal, and as I was getting further ahead on board he risked tapping out for Gideon hoping I didn't have it (I had it).
2-1 (5-0-2)
Semifinals (Vehicles)
Game one his draw was too fast for my mediocre one to keep up. Marvel got me there in game two. Game three was really interactive and close, and I wound up having to just go for it at 4 life on a board that left me dead to any removal. He didn't have it.
2-1 (6-0-2)
Finals (Vehicles)
My opponent and I split the money ($220 each) and just played for the invitation. This turned out to be a good decision, as he was on the play game one and his hand was the literal nuts, killed me turn 4. Game two was close and I thought I had stabilized when I pyrohelixed his Veteran Motorist and Gideon when he took it to 1 for the emblem, but he just played another one next turn and I couldn't keep up.
0-2 (7-1-2)
Overall I'm happy with how the deck played. I think the Vehicles matchup is fine or even favorable because of Aether Meltdown, and the Constrictor matchup is good as well (albeit swingy) depending on their build. It's specific cards (Gideon) rather than archetypes that seem to be problems for the most part.
As far as my own card choices go, I've played around with a few builds of the deck and I tried some things I went back and forth on, that might be good in a different metagame but not this one (Tamiyo, Eldritch Evolution, Elder Deep-Fiend). One decision I think isn't even close is Aetherworks Marvel. I think playing a non-Jeskai control copycat deck without 4 is just a mistake. I played it without, and then with 2 for a while to see how it played, then 3, and haven't looked back. If you're already playing the best enablers anyway (attune, servant, refiner, harnessed lighting) you may as well cash in. It also interacts incredibly well with Aether Meltdown, which is probably the best card in the format against Vehicles. Another huge factor that I think a lot of people might not consider (I didn't until I played it) is how much more likely you are to find your sideboard cards. It adds some randomness and complexity to your decision tree when you have to think about when to spin and what you're hoping to find, but the sheer power level is absolutely worth it. The turns when you spin multiple times and combo them out from an empty board or cast sideboard sorceries during your opponent's combat feel absolutely busted.
One thing I'm interested in hearing about it how you guys deal with Gideon (specifically in a Vehicles context) and Walking Ballista. Those are far and away the two cards that give me the most trouble, not close. Is there any tech to bring against those? Deadlock Trap? Sharing is caring, any and all spicy tech appreciated.
I don't play the 4C version; but something that I have found to be effective; if I don't counter Gideon when he is cast; is to wait until they make him into a creature and use Brutal Expulsion to bounce him back into their hand and also do 2 damage to one of their creatures. It also works well in bouncing any vehicle that they have crewed and it is great for making sure that Scrapheap Scrounger's don't return from the graveyard. Since if the two damage kills the Scrounger, then it is exiled instead of going to the graveyard.
The bounce means that he can still be played; if they have the mana to do so; but it is mana that they have to spend on recasting him again instead of playing more spells and also saves me a from taking damage. Plus it can be flashbacked with the Gearhulk.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
With the Aether Hubs and the Marvel I've been trying out To The Slaughter out of the board and haven't ran into a situation where I couldn't cast it yet with a Gideon on line. You might have to tweak your 75 though to try to support it better.
Having played with and without for a few weeks each I think Marvel is definitely the way to go. The only common decks that have the white for Authority of the Consuls are Vehicles (against which I already board in Natural State) and Jeskai (against which I bring in Negate). With Marvel though it's not the end of the world if they stick one, since the backup plan of valuing them out of the game and eventually killing them with a boat/thopters/random creatures is perfectly fine (I actually win about half the games this way). I did face multiple Thalias, she's never really mattered because she dies to Harnessed Lightning/Chandra/Boat/Pyrohelix/everything else in the format. Most of the time I see Thalia I'm actually glad she's not Pia or Depala, since those often mean more damage for you the turn they come down and Thalia doesn't.
Also I used to run Oath of Chandra, I took it out for the main deck Aether Meltdown because I wanted instant speed interaction for Vehicles + I can already turn the cat into removal with the boat, but I didn't really consider the other clause; it might be worth trying to fit a couple back in.
How is Nahiri for you when they don't have Authority of the Consuls? I haven't actually tried her. I've played Tamiyo and currently play Chandra, and theorycrafted to myself that Nahiri would probably be worse than Chandra most of the time but I don't know if that's true.
@w03havoc To the Slaughter seems interesting. Do you have a swamp in the board for it, or just hope to cast it with hubs/Marvel? Also, what's your spread of card types look like? How often do you have to play out of your way to turn on Delirium for it?
The Nahiri has been solid in the deck , however so has Chandra. I wouldn't replace the Chandra but was a nice compliment to her. How important is running 4 marvel would you say over , lets say 3. 4 seems like so many...did you ever have a situation where additional copies were sitting in your hand? Also would you ever see yourself cutting down to 1 boat or is it that good? Also what is your opinion on EDF? I know a list was running 3x MD that just won an SCG classic..