Honestly I don't see the weakness of stock mono black to ur control. I've played against several control opponnents and have tested it against myeself. Even with the nut draw of 2+ sweepers plus removal and counters it still felt like an easy win. A lot of that may come from experience though, i've been playing aggro in a control heavy meta(my city and my friends) for many years and I know that mu well. That said I have a lot to learn in other matchups. My advice if you're having a rough time with control; practice. Find a good patient control player with some time to test with you and jam like 50 matches. You need to get really comfortable with what they're doing down to a mental game level. The other thing is sideboarding. As good of a card as it is I don't like scrapheap against control. We don't have many creatures that stay in the yard, we don't want to cast non-zombies,ani by itself it still isn't a threat. My current sb against Ur control;
-4 lord of the accursed
Too slow by itself
-2 fatal push
-3 grasp
Few targets
+3 plague belcher
4 toughness is hard for them to deal with and it's effect punishes boardwipes
+2 miasmic mummy
Hitting their hand is excellent and you likely have something you don't mind in the yard. More 2 drops also increases your speed.
+2 never//return
Great removal for chandras and gearhulks the return side can hit instants that they would want to gearhulk or kozilek's return. It's also just. 4 mana 2/2 which helps.
+2 transgress the mind
Again hitting their hand is super helpful. Grabbing a sweltering or a chandra with this is likely gg.
The other thing is sideboarding. As good of a card as it is I don't like scrapheap against control. We don't have many creatures that stay in the yard, we don't want to cast non-zombies,ani by itself it still isn't a threat.
Scrounger is absolute money against slower decks and sweepers. In a deck with 24 MD creatures, only 8 recur themselves and 4 of those are conditional. There are plenty of targets to make it worthwhile
complete tempo killer and easy to get yourself 2 for 1'd. I want to like the card but there just isnt enough upside yet. Hopefully HoD increases its viability.
Whatever works for you is fine. In my testing scrounger has been very underwhelming. I could refute your points one at a time but it doesn't appear that you are opon to my ideas. I wish you luck in your matches.
Whatever works for you is fine. In my testing scrounger has been very underwhelming. I could refute your points one at a time but it doesn't appear that you are opon to my ideas. I wish you luck in your matches.
Neither is any pro playing Zombies it would seem. This is a competitive forum. There is a reason the Fannell/Calcano/Thompson's ARE NOT playing Miasmic Mummy and Plague Belcher and ARE playing Scroungers and Transgress.
This is a competitive forum. Not a rudeness forum. This is a space to bring up and discuss new ideas. If you want to copy only what the pros do then I would direct you to articles and decklists.
Foc the record timothy wu, and eric severson went 7-3 with 2 miasmics md. Ben weitz had 4, he also went 7-3. They may not be fennell calcano or thompson but they did just as well in the constructed portion.
This is a competitive forum. Not a rudeness forum. This is a space to bring up and discuss new ideas. If you want to copy only what the pros do then I would direct you to articles and decklists.
Foc the record timothy wu, and eric severson went 7-3 with 2 miasmics md. Ben weitz had 4, he also went 7-3. Do they count as pros?
I wasnt rude. I was matter of fact. You say this is a place to discuss ideas. And I did, pointing out what I believe to be subpar card choices. But because you didnt like what I had to say, I was dismissed immediately.
At the end of the day, pros play a lot more magic that most of us and have more insight into what is optimal and what isnt. What we know is that Miasmic Mummy hasnt placed. Now, if/when MD Miasmics place in a major tournament, I'll happily eat crow, but not until then. Winning ~ 2 of 3 matches is nice, but its not enough. And since you wanted to point them out specifically, Wu/Severson/Weitz all played 4 Scrounger in the SB. Also keep in mind that tournament was the first with Amonkhet, before the meta settled in
This is a competitive forum. Not a rudeness forum. This is a space to bring up and discuss new ideas. If you want to copy only what the pros do then I would direct you to articles and decklists.
Foc the record timothy wu, and eric severson went 7-3 with 2 miasmics md. Ben weitz had 4, he also went 7-3. Do they count as pros?
I was dismissed immediately.
At the end of the day, pros play a lot more magic that most of us and have more insight into what is optimal and what isnt. What we know is that Miasmic Mummy hasnt placed. Now, if/when MD Miasmics place in a major tournament, I'll happily eat crow, but not until then. Winning ~ 2 of 3 matches is nice, but its not enough. And since you wanted to point them out specifically, Wu/Severson/Weitz all played 4 Scrounger in the SB. Also keep in mind that tournament was the first with Amonkhet, before the meta settled in
Gerry thompson went 7-2-1, chris calcano went 7-1-2, fennell went on a massive tear but he was one of only 3 bw players to get 7+ wins. There where 5 players who did better than gerry and chris in the standard portion and even more who did just as well. To say that the only lists worth looking at are from the top 8 of a mixed format event is just silly. Also as far as placing timothy wu placed 10th, easily high enough to be considered a viable list.
My main issue isn't even one of whether the card is playable or not. The way you dismissed even the thought of playing either card is seriously going to hold you back as a player.
My main issue isn't even one of whether the card is playable or not. The way you dismissed even the thought of playing either card is seriously going to hold you back as a player.
I dismissed Belcher because I playtested it. Its clunky. I dismissed Miasma because its a bad card and there are better options. In terms of "being held back", ive been playing "competitive" magic for 20 years. Im comfortable with my grasp on the game
you can test new cards all you want but what do the cards you have mentioned do for you in the currect meta. How do they effect match ups, and why are you testing cards that have underperformed in pro testing? If there is a reason they put cards into a deck, then each serves a role.
Plague belcher is by far the worst 3 drop of the zombie tribe. why play this when colossus, lord of the accursed are better? how has it performed for you? how are you managing that 3 drop slot? how are you running this card? out of the sb? for mono black or b/w? or u/b?
I know the pros who tested both versions of this deck, they would say this
why do you think you know better than the the guys who created the deck? Why would you change pieces of it's core when it obviously works?
Now to add (on PC far better to express ideas than my iphone):
What synergy does Miasmic Mummy add to the deck and what are you putting the yard? That land you want to chuck into the yard is better served becoming a 2/2 zombie right?
Plague Belcher may have it's day after rotation, right now zombie decks focus on going wide and pumping their undead horde with lord/anthem effects. This card isn't that good yet.
why do you disagree with their choices? what part of the testing process do you think they made a mistake?
will post ask you more questions but id like to know what you are taking out to fit these cards in.
I went 3-1 tonight with BW Zombies, losing to control. The deck is very powerful. My removal suite is 4 Push, 3 Salvation, 2 Anguished and 2 Time to Reflect. I play 24 lands.
Liliana's Mastery is absolutely needed as at least a 3-of (what I run it at).
I 2-0'd everyone I beat. I beat a RG Pummeler, New Perspectives and RB Aggro. I lost to UR Control with 15 counterspells, 2-0.
I use two Plague Belcher in my deck and it is clunky but it's a 5/4 most of the time (it was for me tonight).
Anyone have any suggestions for the control matchup? My sideboard is
3 Harsh Scrutiny
2 Authority of the Consuls
2 Lost Legacy
2 To The Slaughter
2 Forsake the Worthly
2 Scarab Feast
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
(Yes I am missing a card)
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The discussion started with my current sideboard against ur control;
-4 lord of the accursed
-2 fatal push
-3 grasp
+3 plague belcher
+2 miasmic mummy
+2 never//return
+2 transgress the mind
Also he disliked my comments that this was a good matchup atleast for the mono b deck. I had also said that I'm liking scrapheap out of the board less and less and i've cut it entirely. It's just been dissapointing. I love me some scrapheap but the fact that it's not a zombie cripples it in our deck so hard. So many of our best cards in the ur matchup care about having or casting zombies ie cryptbreaker, colossus, mastery, mimic, belcher, salvation.
As for specific thoughts;
Belcher comes in to replace lord at 3. Lord is incredible in all of our other matchups. Here though since he is usually alone and the menace doesn't really matter a 3 mana 2/3 isn't what we want. Most of the time you'll be casting belcher as a 3/2 to punish/delay sweepers. Eating something to dodge magma spray can be something to keep in mind but I usually only eat something if it's a dread wanderer or a relentless dead I can get value from.
Miasmic mummy comes down to the fact that overall our individual cards are of lower quality than the ur deck. You don't need some synergy out of the yard or madness to break the symmetry here. Just look at it as forcing them to 2 for 2 you on 2 cards you really don't care about so later you can stick the important stuff. There isn't much in their hand you don't want to hit, lands, card draw, counters, bombs, especially sweepers are all great hits. Turns out that's all that is in that deck =P
As far as somehow thinknig my testing or deckbuilding is better than the pros I can assure you I do not. I do my best to lean on players who are much much better than myeself. My job allows me to listen to about 12 hours a week of podcasts with all the way from bronze to platinum pros and hall of famers. I dig up articles and videos to learn from more experienced people. My maindeck is purely stock, same 60 as gerry's from the pt. He nailed that maindeck and I don't want to deviate. The sideboard on the other hand he and his team even admitted to getting wrong.
As for credentials Belcher has been in several 5-0 lists maindeck and sideboard in the last weeks.
Miasmic was maindecked in atleast 3 21 point or higher lists at the pt, lists that did just as well as colcano and thompson in the standard portion. One of them came in tenth.
To bo clear I am fine with being wrong. I dislike being dismissed offhandedly with comments like 'this is a compettitive forum'.
Won my FNM last night with monoB. This means that monoB Zombies have come first and second at the last four events the shop has run, including Game Day. I'm not knocking BW, I don't think the people in the store who play BW do the "full" version. I like my monoB though.
I use the same list though with Chandra going in every Marvel deck, Im looking to fit some sweeper protection in the SB. 2x Selfless Spirit or Eerie Interlude
Eerie inherlude is tempting. I've tried it out in other white based aggro lists in the past with poor results. Having to keep the 3 mana up constantly to protect your team slows you down so much. Also once your opponent knows you have it they will just use their spot removal first and force you to use it when it's less effective. In a way holding up mana for this is the same as putting it in their hand.
Selfless spirit is interesting as it lets you stay tempo positive while still being protected. The downside is that it's fragile and not a zombie. Any random point removal hoses him and then they sweep your team, he also doesnt save you from tendrils or descend. He's not a zombie either, which so much of our deck is predicated on that i've heard of people cutting colossus to make room for these type of cards from the sb. Colossus is one of your absolute best weapons vs control and making that weaker on both ends by glutting on non zombies probably won't get you more wins. Colossus let's you go wide while comitting fewer cards and because of the counters he punishes earlier non-exile wipes. A 6/6 plus colosus is a nightmare for ur control they only have 4 harnessed lightning to deal with that.
I use the same list though with Chandra going in every Marvel deck, Im looking to fit some sweeper protection in the SB. 2x Selfless Spirit or Eerie Interlude
Eerie inherlude is tempting. I've tried it out in other white based aggro lists in the past with poor results. Having to keep the 3 mana up constantly to protect your team slows you down so much. Also once your opponent knows you have it they will just use their spot removal first and force you to use it when it's less effective. In a way holding up mana for this is the same as putting it in their hand.
Selfless spirit is interesting as it lets you stay tempo positive while still being protected. The downside is that it's fragile and not a zombie. Any random point removal hoses him and then they sweep your team, he also doesnt save you from tendrils or descend. He's not a zombie either, which so much of our deck is predicated on that i've heard of people cutting colossus to make room for these type of cards from the sb. Colossus is one of your absolute best weapons vs control and making that weaker on both ends by glutting on non zombies probably won't get you more wins. Colossus let's you go wide while comitting fewer cards and because of the counters he punishes earlier non-exile wipes. A 6/6 plus colosus is a nightmare for ur control they only have 4 harnessed lightning to deal with that.
Thats the internal debate. Leaving 3 mana up which is less optimal (but slightly less of an issue if you can get Cryptbreaker engine on the table), or a 2/1 that doesnt cost you tempo but is susceptible to spot removal before it can do its job. Ideally Id be subbing out Binding Mummy for either vs sweepers. Still leaves the deck with plenty of Zombies
Thats the internal debate. Leaving 3 mana up which is less optimal (but slightly less of an issue if you can get Cryptbreaker engine on the table), or a 2/1 that doesnt cost you tempo but is susceptible to spot removal before it can do its job. Ideally Id be subbing out Binding Mummy for either vs sweepers. Still leaves the deck with plenty of Zombies
Thats the internal debate. Leaving 3 mana up which is less optimal (but slightly less of an issue if you can get Cryptbreaker engine on the table), or a 2/1 that doesnt cost you tempo but is susceptible to spot removal before it can do its job. Ideally Id be subbing out Binding Mummy for either vs sweepers. Still leaves the deck with plenty of Zombies
guys, do you really find the 3rd unmaking in sd really useful? I'm running never / return and i'm pretty happy with it, since in the mirror is way better (less painful and remove the same things unmaking would remove - except obv the lili's mastery).
I want to have the extra insurance vs Marvel since its rampant. And as a rule I prefer instant speed removal to sorcery speed, but its not a bad card to board and certainly has its uses (though im not sure the Mirror is one of them)
Thats the internal debate. Leaving 3 mana up which is less optimal (but slightly less of an issue if you can get Cryptbreaker engine on the table), or a 2/1 that doesnt cost you tempo but is susceptible to spot removal before it can do its job. Ideally Id be subbing out Binding Mummy for either vs sweepers. Still leaves the deck with plenty of Zombies
Are you bringing scroungers in aswell?
yes
I don't know what you're swapping for those but that's 5-7 creatures in if you're only cutting 5 removal and 2 binding mummies you could be ok but if you're cutting more zombies that can start to get awkward. It also doesn't leave you room for any transgress or planeswalker removal :/
I don't know what you're swapping for those but that's 5-7 creatures in if you're only cutting 5 removal and 2 binding mummies you could be ok but if you're cutting more zombies that can start to get awkward. It also doesn't leave you room for any transgress or planeswalker removal :/
Im not cutting any Zombies sans the Mummy. Still leaves 1/3 of the deck as Zombies. Im not convinced Transgress is good in the UR matchup.....at least not as a 4 of. Deck has a lot of redundant cards and that mitigates the usefulness.
That should be fine, I agree that 4 transgress is too much, Ilike 2 though, seeing one is nice because you can nab a sweeper or a card draw spell but you don't want to draw two. Basically it can let you deny one of their 2+ for ones. Keeping the card advantage more even. I could see doing a swap like this;
-2 push
-2 binding mummy
-3 grasp
+2 selfless spirit
+3 scrapheap
+2 transgress
You don't get to have never // return which can leave you more vulnerable to chandra and gearhulks but you get to keep a really high threat density.
That should be fine, I agree that 4 transgress is too much, Ilike 2 though, seeing one is nice because you can nab a sweeper or a card draw spell but you don't want to draw two. Basically it can let you deny one of their 2+ for ones. Keeping the card advantage more even. I could see doing a swap like this;
-2 push
-2 binding mummy
-3 grasp
+2 selfless spirit
+3 scrapheap
+2 transgress
You don't get to have never // return which can leave you more vulnerable to chandra and gearhulks but you get to keep a really high threat density.
For now I havent seen many UR lists running Chandra and/or Glorybringer. If I start to see that shift, then more Transgress may be necessary. My typical board in is 4 Scrounger, 4 Gideon, 2 Transgress. If I add sweeper protection, that may have to be tweaked some
thanks. Bendaer Welcome! Per Standard Forum Rules and "Standard Main Forum- What Belongs Here", deck specific questions belong in Deck Creation or individual threads. Given that this is a Bx Zombie issue and we have a Bx Zombie thread, per Standard Deck Creation Rules counterindicating a new Zombie thread, I judge that it should be merged into the existing Zombie thread. Merging. - hoser2
I play the black white variant of zombies, i went 2/2 at gameday because in my lgs meta theres soooo much RU control, how do we beat RU control, do i really need to drop money to get gideons for sideboard?
That's the only weakness for this deck and I stated my FNM record on Friday. I went 3-1 and only lost to UR Control. I had nothing for that matchup. I 2-0'd everything else. Anyone have any suggestions?
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That's the only weakness for this deck and I stated my FNM record on Friday. I went 3-1 and only lost to UR Control. I had nothing for that matchup. I 2-0'd everything else. Anyone have any suggestions?
i run 3 belchers on the main and one on the SB if one gets in, the are in a lot of trouble.
Also beign marvel and control are the main issues, im thinking that playing 6 or 8 discards spells on the SB
isnt a bad idea at all.
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-4 lord of the accursed
Too slow by itself
-2 fatal push
-3 grasp
Few targets
+3 plague belcher
4 toughness is hard for them to deal with and it's effect punishes boardwipes
+2 miasmic mummy
Hitting their hand is excellent and you likely have something you don't mind in the yard. More 2 drops also increases your speed.
+2 never//return
Great removal for chandras and gearhulks the return side can hit instants that they would want to gearhulk or kozilek's return. It's also just. 4 mana 2/2 which helps.
+2 transgress the mind
Again hitting their hand is super helpful. Grabbing a sweltering or a chandra with this is likely gg.
Scrounger is absolute money against slower decks and sweepers. In a deck with 24 MD creatures, only 8 recur themselves and 4 of those are conditional. There are plenty of targets to make it worthwhile
complete tempo killer and easy to get yourself 2 for 1'd. I want to like the card but there just isnt enough upside yet. Hopefully HoD increases its viability.
why on earth would anyone be using this card?
which is why transgress is the best option
which is why a 3/2 for 2 that comes back from the dead is the smarter play
Foc the record timothy wu, and eric severson went 7-3 with 2 miasmics md. Ben weitz had 4, he also went 7-3. They may not be fennell calcano or thompson but they did just as well in the constructed portion.
At the end of the day, pros play a lot more magic that most of us and have more insight into what is optimal and what isnt. What we know is that Miasmic Mummy hasnt placed. Now, if/when MD Miasmics place in a major tournament, I'll happily eat crow, but not until then. Winning ~ 2 of 3 matches is nice, but its not enough. And since you wanted to point them out specifically, Wu/Severson/Weitz all played 4 Scrounger in the SB. Also keep in mind that tournament was the first with Amonkhet, before the meta settled in
Gerry thompson went 7-2-1, chris calcano went 7-1-2, fennell went on a massive tear but he was one of only 3 bw players to get 7+ wins. There where 5 players who did better than gerry and chris in the standard portion and even more who did just as well. To say that the only lists worth looking at are from the top 8 of a mixed format event is just silly. Also as far as placing timothy wu placed 10th, easily high enough to be considered a viable list.
My main issue isn't even one of whether the card is playable or not. The way you dismissed even the thought of playing either card is seriously going to hold you back as a player.
Plague belcher is by far the worst 3 drop of the zombie tribe. why play this when colossus, lord of the accursed are better? how has it performed for you? how are you managing that 3 drop slot? how are you running this card? out of the sb? for mono black or b/w? or u/b?
I know the pros who tested both versions of this deck, they would say this
why do you think you know better than the the guys who created the deck? Why would you change pieces of it's core when it obviously works?
Now to add (on PC far better to express ideas than my iphone):
What synergy does Miasmic Mummy add to the deck and what are you putting the yard? That land you want to chuck into the yard is better served becoming a 2/2 zombie right?
Plague Belcher may have it's day after rotation, right now zombie decks focus on going wide and pumping their undead horde with lord/anthem effects. This card isn't that good yet.
why do you disagree with their choices? what part of the testing process do you think they made a mistake?
will post ask you more questions but id like to know what you are taking out to fit these cards in.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Liliana's Mastery is absolutely needed as at least a 3-of (what I run it at).
I 2-0'd everyone I beat. I beat a RG Pummeler, New Perspectives and RB Aggro. I lost to UR Control with 15 counterspells, 2-0.
I use two Plague Belcher in my deck and it is clunky but it's a 5/4 most of the time (it was for me tonight).
Anyone have any suggestions for the control matchup? My sideboard is
3 Harsh Scrutiny
2 Authority of the Consuls
2 Lost Legacy
2 To The Slaughter
2 Forsake the Worthly
2 Scarab Feast
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
(Yes I am missing a card)
The discussion started with my current sideboard against ur control;
-4 lord of the accursed
-2 fatal push
-3 grasp
+3 plague belcher
+2 miasmic mummy
+2 never//return
+2 transgress the mind
Also he disliked my comments that this was a good matchup atleast for the mono b deck. I had also said that I'm liking scrapheap out of the board less and less and i've cut it entirely. It's just been dissapointing. I love me some scrapheap but the fact that it's not a zombie cripples it in our deck so hard. So many of our best cards in the ur matchup care about having or casting zombies ie cryptbreaker, colossus, mastery, mimic, belcher, salvation.
As for specific thoughts;
Belcher comes in to replace lord at 3. Lord is incredible in all of our other matchups. Here though since he is usually alone and the menace doesn't really matter a 3 mana 2/3 isn't what we want. Most of the time you'll be casting belcher as a 3/2 to punish/delay sweepers. Eating something to dodge magma spray can be something to keep in mind but I usually only eat something if it's a dread wanderer or a relentless dead I can get value from.
Miasmic mummy comes down to the fact that overall our individual cards are of lower quality than the ur deck. You don't need some synergy out of the yard or madness to break the symmetry here. Just look at it as forcing them to 2 for 2 you on 2 cards you really don't care about so later you can stick the important stuff. There isn't much in their hand you don't want to hit, lands, card draw, counters, bombs, especially sweepers are all great hits. Turns out that's all that is in that deck =P
As far as somehow thinknig my testing or deckbuilding is better than the pros I can assure you I do not. I do my best to lean on players who are much much better than myeself. My job allows me to listen to about 12 hours a week of podcasts with all the way from bronze to platinum pros and hall of famers. I dig up articles and videos to learn from more experienced people. My maindeck is purely stock, same 60 as gerry's from the pt. He nailed that maindeck and I don't want to deviate. The sideboard on the other hand he and his team even admitted to getting wrong.
As for credentials Belcher has been in several 5-0 lists maindeck and sideboard in the last weeks.
Miasmic was maindecked in atleast 3 21 point or higher lists at the pt, lists that did just as well as colcano and thompson in the standard portion. One of them came in tenth.
To bo clear I am fine with being wrong. I dislike being dismissed offhandedly with comments like 'this is a compettitive forum'.
Eerie inherlude is tempting. I've tried it out in other white based aggro lists in the past with poor results. Having to keep the 3 mana up constantly to protect your team slows you down so much. Also once your opponent knows you have it they will just use their spot removal first and force you to use it when it's less effective. In a way holding up mana for this is the same as putting it in their hand.
Selfless spirit is interesting as it lets you stay tempo positive while still being protected. The downside is that it's fragile and not a zombie. Any random point removal hoses him and then they sweep your team, he also doesnt save you from tendrils or descend. He's not a zombie either, which so much of our deck is predicated on that i've heard of people cutting colossus to make room for these type of cards from the sb. Colossus is one of your absolute best weapons vs control and making that weaker on both ends by glutting on non zombies probably won't get you more wins. Colossus let's you go wide while comitting fewer cards and because of the counters he punishes earlier non-exile wipes. A 6/6 plus colosus is a nightmare for ur control they only have 4 harnessed lightning to deal with that.
Are you bringing scroungers in aswell?
I don't know what you're swapping for those but that's 5-7 creatures in if you're only cutting 5 removal and 2 binding mummies you could be ok but if you're cutting more zombies that can start to get awkward. It also doesn't leave you room for any transgress or planeswalker removal :/
-2 push
-2 binding mummy
-3 grasp
+2 selfless spirit
+3 scrapheap
+2 transgress
You don't get to have never // return which can leave you more vulnerable to chandra and gearhulks but you get to keep a really high threat density.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/standard-mono-black-zombies#paper
thanks. Bendaer
Welcome! Per Standard Forum Rules and "Standard Main Forum- What Belongs Here", deck specific questions belong in Deck Creation or individual threads. Given that this is a Bx Zombie issue and we have a Bx Zombie thread, per Standard Deck Creation Rules counterindicating a new Zombie thread, I judge that it should be merged into the existing Zombie thread. Merging. - hoser2
i run 3 belchers on the main and one on the SB if one gets in, the are in a lot of trouble.
Also beign marvel and control are the main issues, im thinking that playing 6 or 8 discards spells on the SB
isnt a bad idea at all.