So looking ahead, this deck is gonna get hated on and you want to be ready. Our new public enemies will be:
GB delirium aggro, with that 1 mana 3/3 deathtouch, 2 mana 4/4, Grasp of Darkness that don't care about Selfless Spirit, and Ishkanah who wrecks those who hoped in Spell Queller.
Some kind of control deck, but not sure which will be strongest, but BR control is getting attention now.
What you call the deck is a question of semantics. However, I will agree that the deck name should be changed to WU Midrange to better represent all varieties of this deck.
I'm still on the Spirits tribal theme and have been posting nice results (I did poorly on Gameday, but you can't win them all). I still feel the deck is favored to neutral across the metagame, and I abo****ely love Nebelgast Herald.
So looking ahead, this deck is gonna get hated on and you want to be ready. Our new public enemies will be:
GB delirium aggro, with that 1 mana 3/3 deathtouch, 2 mana 4/4, Grasp of Darkness that don't care about Selfless Spirit, and Ishkanah who wrecks those who hoped in Spell Queller.
Some kind of control deck, but not sure which will be strongest, but BR control is getting attention now.
How do we adapt?
I agree that Delirium is a huge counter to this deck and I'm not sure that we have any super good answers and with basically no graveyard hate in Standard there isn't many sb options other than just more removal. Summary Dismissal is an all star against the deck, but that's the only big thing I can think of.
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How can we truly be free, if we are held in the bondage of clothing?
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
Delirium is favored against WU Midrange, which is favored against combo decks (Aetherworks), which are strongly favored against delirium. There's no deck that completely dominate the metagame at the moment. That said, I believe any deck with WU in it is better equipped at the moment to face such a diverse metagame, thanks to Spell Queller, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Ceremonious Rejection and Negate.
Against Delirium, you need flyers, anthems (against Lili), and Gideon. Declaration in Stone can be very useful against spider tokens.
This was a really interesting deck, combining the vehicles + Colossus package with some eldrazi like Bearer of Silence and Herald of Kozilek. I managed to grind out a win in game 1, got crushed by Copter and Skysovereign in game 2. Some slow play from my opponent plus a late Linvala in game 3 meant that we ended in a tie. I don't know that I would have won if we had been able to play it out, but it was close.
Getting a tie in Round 1 was a bit of a downer because the event wasn't going to have a cut to top 8 or 4, so whoever won the swiss would win overall. I thought that the tie would put me out of the running, and yet...
Round 2 vs. Jeskai Control 2-1
Game 1 he got me with a Torrential Gearhulk I couldn't answer. Post sideboard, I was in a much better position with threats plus countermagic able to deal with pretty much anything he threw at me.
Round 3 vs. R/G Energy 2-0
I had to take a lot of hits from a bunch of big ground dudes until I could establish enough of a presence to turn it around. Multiform Wonder gave me fits because it was able to block my flyers, gain life, and attack. I eventually was able to overpower it with multiple Avacyns.
Round 4 vs. Bant 2-0
As mentioned above, Unsubstantiate > Tireless Tracker into Spell Queller > Tireless Tracker is a nasty tempo start that really disrupts the bant strategy. Again, I took some hits before stabilizing with a strong airforce. In game 2, my opponent got Copter flooded without enough pilots. Toward the end, he got close to a Westvale Abbey flip, but was off by a turn vs. Avacyn flip to close it out.
Round 5 vs. Bant 2-0
Going into the finals, I felt a bit bad for my opponent because he was the only 4-0 left, while I was 3-0-1, but he still had to play me to close out the event. I'll take what I can get though! His deck was very much the pre-rotation deck minus Collected Company, which made all the difference for me. Game 1 I was able to jam continuous spirit threats plus 2 Stasis Snare to maintain firm control, despite never getting above 3 lands. Game 2 my opponent got off to a good start, giving me a dose of my own medicine by hitting 2 Nebelgast Herald in a row with two of his own Spell Queller. He beat me down to 3 life, but the third Nebalgast finally landed and helped me finally lock him out with an unbeatable spirit airforce.
A few notes on the deck. I like the direction people have been going with the midrange version, but I think this build is a bit better in a few ways. Nebelgast Herald does a lot more than Reflector Mage. You get spirit synergies, which means you can get lots of taps out of a single Herald. It has evasion. It has flash. All of this plays much better into our gameplan than mage. Plus, so many cards you might bounce have strong ETB effects that you just don't want to trigger over and over again.
I also think Rattlechains is currently undervalued. Giving additional flash and hexproof are both very powerful effects that help you build out your board while getting around lots of interaction from your opponent.
I like the shift to Thraben Inspector. Mausoleum Wanderer hasn't been doing much for me lately. I'd rather have the extra card advantage than maybe counter something every once in a while.
I faced 2 delirium decks, 1 temur midrange (kibler-esque), and 2 non-spirit uw flash.
In all of these revolutionary rebuff was incredible, countering ishakanas, avacyns, lilianas, etc... it's super good.
I finally realize that ongoing investigation sucks though, infact, bygone bishop isn't great either. I'm replacing the investigations with the 4th flux (which is awesome btw) and I'm thinking the 3rd always watching, since it's almost critical in some matchups, plus being able to attack and surprise block with the copter is dirty.
I have Gisela in the board for the fast agro decks, didn't get to try her out, but I think it's probably correct. I think it's between her, aerial responder, or authority of the consuls. She has a higher ceiling than responder, and authority is only really effective if you cast it between turns 1 and 3. But when you cast authority within those turns, it's really good, so I'm torn on that slot.
I would love to get some imput on the 2 maindeck slots currently occupied by the investigations and the 2 board slots occupied by Gisela, if you guys have any thoughts.
EDIT: congrats moodles!
I agree with most of your thoughts at the end of your post, except that mausoleum wanderer is far better than inspector if you run nebelghast.
Wanderer is actually a bit better now that g/b is coming back since it lets you crew a copter when the opponent has bb open, which has been relevant for me. It's also just another way to protect your quellers and copters from burn spells. It being a flier is relevant because it gets around thraben inspectors, whereas yours would just sit around if you don't have a copter, also there aren't many good creatures that can block it outside of spell queller in the early turns, if they want to trade with a selfless spirit, then more power to them! It's pump effect has also won me games. I don't know if you've tested with it or not, but don't just write it off if you haven't, I was skeptical at first too.
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Congrats @immapwner on having a success on the tribal version of this deck. I'm not really solve on Revolutionary Rebuff, since every deck has copter and Vehicle decks are here to stay. I see your point in countering spells that totally wreck our deck (Avacyn, Ishkana, Lily, etc.), but all of those could be countered by Unsubstantiate. It is basically a timewalk, so that we can untap and get in for flyer damage.
Ongoing Investigation could be replaced by 2 Negates, so have additional answers to Copter, Gideon, Snares, etc...Gisela is not what you want on a R/x fast aggro decks, she will just eat Harness Lightning, Unlicensed Disentegration. Maybe 4th Blessed alliance and 1 Immolating Glare if your meta is super aggro like R/x or B/R vampires.
Also, you can cut 2 Ceremonious Rejection, for 2 Spell Shrivel. If you are worried about Marvel/Colussus Decks, I think 2 Rejection, 2 Shrivel, 2 Fragmentize and 2 Negates will do the job.
I might give the Revolutionary Rebuff a whirl, and see how it performs on the rest of the field.
Hi Guys, in your pinion, how is positioned grixis control/jeskai control against this deck?
I think they have a favorable matchup event post side maybe...
I've never had problems against them. My version runs 8 counterspells in the main, plus 4 more if you count rattlechains, selfless spirit and essence flux also sort of count.
Congrats @immapwner on having a success on the tribal version of this deck. I'm not really solve on Revolutionary Rebuff, since every deck has copter and Vehicle decks are here to stay. I see your point in countering spells that totally wreck our deck (Avacyn, Ishkana, Lily, etc.), but all of those could be countered by Unsubstantiate. It is basically a timewalk, so that we can untap and get in for flyer damage.
Ongoing Investigation could be replaced by 2 Negates, so have additional answers to Copter, Gideon, Snares, etc...Gisela is not what you want on a R/x fast aggro decks, she will just eat Harness Lightning, Unlicensed Disentegration. Maybe 4th Blessed alliance and 1 Immolating Glare if your meta is super aggro like R/x or B/R vampires.
Also, you can cut 2 Ceremonious Rejection, for 2 Spell Shrivel. If you are worried about Marvel/Colussus Decks, I think 2 Rejection, 2 Shrivel, 2 Fragmentize and 2 Negates will do the job.
I might give the Revolutionary Rebuff a whirl, and see how it performs on the rest of the field.
I think rebuff is better than unsubstantiate, with unsub they can just cast the spell next turn, so you better hope you can kill them before they recast an ishkanah. I also don't think the bounce is especially useful, since we don't have a huge problem at dealing with creatures, I do like the idea of bouncing a copter though. Against the artifact decks you of course board out the rebuffs for rejection, I haven't quite figured out the best plan against agro, but it probably involves some sort of mix.
I was considering 2 negate in the main. It sounds good but then again since I'm playing 4 rattlechains and 3 essence flux (and to a lesser extent 4 selfless) I can beat spot removal. But it would be nice to have a turn 2 answer to copter in the main.
I was thinking that selfless spirit and essence flux would be enough to protect Gisela, it might not be though. I was wanting something that puts pressure on them, while padding our life, so a lifelinking creature is what I was thinking. Maybe it needs to be responder since it's cheaper, but Gisela has a huge upside if it sticks. I think I'd rather play authority of the consuls before more removal spells, since it buffs our life total and slows then down a ton, since, if they don't have a one drop, they can't crew a copter until turn 4 (assuming you don't have a reflector mage).
Ceremonious rejection is only for the marvel/colossus decks though, I don't really need more counters against other decks, so why not play the best one against the artifact decks?
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Delirium isnt too bad of a match up if played right. I'm 4-3 against it currently. Play yuuki ichikawas list. Take out inspectors, selfless spirit, rattlechains. Bring in all but fragmentize and counters. Most people think counters are good against them but I'd argue against it since hand disruption can leave me being a reactive deck rather than proactive. Kill ishkanah, grind through the tokens. Hope they don't get emrakul
So I have tried to put 3 Revolutionary Rebuff maindeck, cutting 3 Unsubstantiate. Though it performed well countering haymakers like Avacyn, PW etc, I was buried by unanswered copter due to the fact that we dont have many answers to it once resolved.
Well, I still agree to maindeck 3 R.Rebuff, but we need to mix at least 2 or 3 early game interaction to a resolved copter or early threats, something like Immolating Glare/Blessed Alliance.
Delirium isnt too bad of a match up if played right. I'm 4-3 against it currently. Play yuuki ichikawas list. Take out inspectors, selfless spirit, rattlechains. Bring in all but fragmentize and counters. Most people think counters are good against them but I'd argue against it since hand disruption can leave me being a reactive deck rather than proactive. Kill ishkanah, grind through the tokens. Hope they don't get emrakul
I completely disagree with this approach. This deck is all about countering their plays, why kill an ishkanah and grind through the tokens, when you can just counter it? There aren't many cards that they play that we care about, it's removal spells, ishkanah, and Liliana, emrakul is obviously hard to beat, but they should be dead before they can get to it. It's all about correctly evaluating their cards. I think the "stock" u/w decks have a harder time at it than the more counter heavy tribal version though.
So I have tried to put 3 Revolutionary Rebuff maindeck, cutting 3 Unsubstantiate. Though it performed well countering haymakers like Avacyn, PW etc, I was buried by unanswered copter due to the fact that we dont have many answers to it once resolved.
Well, I still agree to maindeck 3 R.Rebuff, but we need to mix at least 2 or 3 early game interaction to a resolved copter or early threats, something like Immolating Glare/Blessed Alliance.
I totally agree. After theory crafting I realized that unsubstantiate is actually alittle bit better than reflector mage in the main because it can bounce a copter and, if they don't get a copter, it can delay their bomb. I think I just approached the card wrong. Right now I'm trying to figure out if the 3rd essence flux is better than the 3rd unsubstantiate, I think it probably is but I'm willing to be wrong. I do think that the 4th rebuff is better than the 3rd unsubstantiate though, it just permanently answers cards we have problems with. It is definitely worse than unsubstantiate against mardu vehicles though, but I expect that we will see stock uw and gb delirium more often than vehicles.
I just 4-1ed a league with this list (punted to g/r energy, had the win in hand), and I'm pretty sure I'm taking it to a pptq on Saturday:
I think I might need to swap out a plains for an island, I generally want as much blue as possible, but only need 2 white. I did get color screwed once or twice today.
Always watching is so freakin good right now, going wanderer, copter, queller, always watching with flux backup is really hard to beat. I was thinking about the 4th always watching but it's probably too much.
I haven't gotten a lot of chances to play against vehicles, so I'm not sure if my board plan is correct or not. In the games I have played against them I find that I'm not really playing much of a flash game, so I cut quellers and (obviously) rebuff, and i'm shaving 1 essence flux, for 3 fragmentize, 2 rejection and 4 reflector mage. I don't really like declaration in stone here, since it's really the vehicles that give you problems (thus the 3 fragmentize, where I'd only bring in 2 in other matches that call for it).
What do you guys think about that matchup?
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Summary Dismissal as a 1 of but I want to go to 2. Fragmentize has been a 2 of but I believe I'm dropping it to 1. Ceremonious Rejection is great at 3. Negate at 1 since I have 1 main. Dispel I don't like this card, but I'm going to test with it some more at 1. Blessed Alliance was disappointing at 3 so I'm moving it to 2. Fumigate is either a 1 or 2.
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
Summary Dismissal as a 1 of but I want to go to 2. Fragmentize has been a 2 of but I believe I'm dropping it to 1. Ceremonious Rejection is great at 3. Negate at 1 since I have 1 main. Dispel I don't like this card, but I'm going to test with it some more at 1. Blessed Alliance was disappointing at 3 so I'm moving it to 2. Fumigate is either a 1 or 2.
Always watching is definitely a main board or not at all card, I think it's a really important card for the deck right now. Authority just hasn't been as good as I wish it would be it always seems good in theory but in practice you always draw it on turn 5 and hate life.
What are your plans with the other cards and can you post your current list for context?
I was thinking about 2 fumigate as well but I don't think it does enough against vehicle decks so it would just be for rg agro which isn't bad, but I want something for vehicles personally.
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Summary Dismissal as a 1 of but I want to go to 2. Fragmentize has been a 2 of but I believe I'm dropping it to 1. Ceremonious Rejection is great at 3. Negate at 1 since I have 1 main. Dispel I don't like this card, but I'm going to test with it some more at 1. Blessed Alliance was disappointing at 3 so I'm moving it to 2. Fumigate is either a 1 or 2.
Always watching is definitely a main board or not at all card, I think it's a really important card for the deck right now. Authority just hasn't been as good as I wish it would be it always seems good in theory but in practice you always draw it on turn 5 and hate life.
What are your plans with the other cards and can you post your current list for context?
I was thinking about 2 fumigate as well but I don't think it does enough against vehicle decks so it would just be for rg agro which isn't bad, but I want something for vehicles personally.
I'd like to cut Reflector back to 3 and I'm testing Shrivel over Void Shatter as the 2U as been rough in testing.
As for the SB:
Summary is great vs Emerge, an option vs planeswalkers, and decent vs control.
Frag is for the Aetherwork decks.
Ceremonious is for the Aetherwork decks and the artifact combo decks.
Negate is there for control and planeswalkers.
Dispel is for control.
Blessed is for aggro.
Fumigate is decks that go wide.
I now have Dovin as a singleton in my sb for control and 2 Authority for aggro since I couldn't find any better options.
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How can we truly be free, if we are held in the bondage of clothing?
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
I believe it's a mistake to test something as a 1-of. You never draw it enough to really learn if it works. Play 2 and if it turns out to be bad, play 0.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
Gideon is great in the midrange build with Thraban Inspector, Reflector Mage and Avacyn in a slower, more land heavy build. When I played that list I often just emblemmed immediately. But in a more tempo oriented, spirits synergy build with Wanderer as the one drop and Nebalgeist Herald as the tempo creature (and typically no Avacyns) there is more of a premium on speed. Always Watching comes down sooner and vigilence is a big deal, allowing you to be very aggressive during your combat step to try to get the beats in the air early and often.
The midrange and tempo lists play very differently, with the tempo lists running much less expensive cards, always running Rattlechains, and trying to get extreme value out of Mausoleum Wanderer's pump ability during combat moreso than trying to counter spells in most cases. Nebalgast Herald shenanigans with Essense Flux make this build very dangerous. I throw in a couple Bygone Bishops as well to try to get some clues to refuel in grindier matchups.
The tempo build is difficult to play. Today I won a game a game against a BR Thing in the Ice, Dynavolt Tower deck where after fighting through a resolved Chandra I passed four turns in a row to rebuild my hand and then Reflector Maged one TitI and Unsubstantiated another with counter backup on the same turn to take over the game. I was patient and lucky, but sometimes you have to play that way with a tempo build. That reminds me, I'm running four Reflector Mage in the sideboard; sometimes I replace the Nebalgasts with them, depending on the matchup, but in this game I replaced the Spell Quellers, which I felt were too vulnerable to burn spells.
The tempo list is super fun to play, but I'm not convinced that it is better.
Gideon is great in the midrange build with Thraban Inspector, Reflector Mage and Avacyn in a slower, more land heavy build. When I played that list I often just emblemmed immediately. But in a more tempo oriented, spirits synergy build with Wanderer as the one drop and Nebalgeist Herald as the tempo creature (and typically no Avacyns) there is more of a premium on speed. Always Watching comes down sooner and vigilence is a big deal, allowing you to be very aggressive during your combat step to try to get the beats in the air early and often.
The midrange and tempo lists play very differently, with the tempo lists running much less expensive cards, always running Rattlechains, and trying to get extreme value out of Mausoleum Wanderer's pump ability during combat moreso than trying to counter spells in most cases. Nebalgast Herald shenanigans with Essense Flux make this build very dangerous. I throw in a couple Bygone Bishops as well to try to get some clues to refuel in grindier matchups.
The tempo build is difficult to play. Today I won a game a game against a BR Thing in the Ice, Dynavolt Tower deck where after fighting through a resolved Chandra I passed four turns in a row to rebuild my hand and then Reflector Maged one TitI and Unsubstantiated another with counter backup on the same turn to take over the game. I was patient and lucky, but sometimes you have to play that way with a tempo build. That reminds me, I'm running four Reflector Mage in the sideboard; sometimes I replace the Nebalgasts with them, depending on the matchup, but in this game I replaced the Spell Quellers, which I felt were too vulnerable to burn spells.
The tempo list is super fun to play, but I'm not convinced that it is better.
I wasn't able to read the transition and with U/W flash domination GP KL I thought this was the topic. We see less play with the spirit tempo but like you, I find it more challenging thus gaining my interest. I'll have play more with this build. I'm currently losing 70% of the matches but I'm getting the hang of it
I ran my list in a pptq today and went 3-2.
I beat 2 jeskai control decks, and a really bad b/w midrange deck. I lost to a jeskai control deck due to dynavolt tower, I should have won game one but drew 3 lands in a row (it happens :/ ) and didn't see the towers game 1 so I didn't bring in fragmentize. Then I lost to a br agro deck that was really heavy with burn (it played collective defiance, collective brutality, and alms of the vein) I usually board out quellers for reflector mages in these kind of matchups on the draw, but I only saw inventor's apprentice, bomat courier, and pia nalaar, and since he was heavy in burn I figured queller would be better on the draw than the usual reflector mage plan, big mistake, he beat me with creatures. I also brought in fragmentize for his copters, turns out he boarded out all of his vehicles expecting me to bring in fragmentize, so I died with a fragmentize in hand after taking about 4 hits from a bomat courier waiting for a better target, along with 2 quellers.
So I lost 2 matches due to boarding mistakes.
I never played against the stock u/w list, gb delirium, or vehicles, which is what I was expecting to face. Oh well.
I did swap out a sideboarded declaration for the 3rd unsubstantiate, as a way to deal with copters and other vehicles in the mardu matchup, not sure if it's right or not. But I wouldn't change anything about the deck, just didn't have the right read on my opponent's decks.
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I took my list to a PPTQ and just was miserable playing this. Zombies absolutely demolishes this deck and we have almost no answers to anything they do. Delirium is also a terrible matchup. It's pretty frustrating to try to get this to work currently. If I didn't despise deckbuilding with a passion, I'd like to try out some other standard decks. As is, I'm only having success with this in non-competitive events. The meta is just so fast right now to the point I may have to take a break from standard for a bit.
As far as feedback on the deck, I honestly am getting to the point where I really don't like Copter. I know it's the best card in Standard currently so I'm a maniac to say this but I just don't think it works in this deck that well. Turn 2 plays are so powerful in so many decks that us tapping out for it (especially on the draw) just sets us so far back. The one match I won was a U/W mirror where I sb them out for games 2 and 3. Maybe it's just my list but I really am leaning towards moving Copter to the sb and only bringing in when on the play in specific matchups.
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
GB delirium aggro, with that 1 mana 3/3 deathtouch, 2 mana 4/4, Grasp of Darkness that don't care about Selfless Spirit, and Ishkanah who wrecks those who hoped in Spell Queller.
Some kind of control deck, but not sure which will be strongest, but BR control is getting attention now.
How do we adapt?
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
I'm still on the Spirits tribal theme and have been posting nice results (I did poorly on Gameday, but you can't win them all). I still feel the deck is favored to neutral across the metagame, and I abo****ely love Nebelgast Herald.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
I agree that Delirium is a huge counter to this deck and I'm not sure that we have any super good answers and with basically no graveyard hate in Standard there isn't many sb options other than just more removal. Summary Dismissal is an all star against the deck, but that's the only big thing I can think of.
Current Decks
Standard / Type 2
BRMidrange
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
Against Delirium, you need flyers, anthems (against Lili), and Gideon. Declaration in Stone can be very useful against spider tokens.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
3 Thraben Inspector
4 Rattlechains
4 Selfless Spirit
3 Nebelgast Herald
4 Spell Queller
3 Archangel Avacyn
Spells (14)
4 Smuggler's Copter
2 Unsubstantiate
1 Revolutionary Rebuff
1 Negate
3 Stasis Snare
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
8 Plains
7 Island
4 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
2 Westvale Abbey
1 Linvala, the Preserver
1 Stasis Snare
1 Declaration in Stone
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Fragmentize
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Revolutionary Rebuff
1 Negate
1 Void Shatter
2 Summary Dismissal
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
Round 1 vs. 4-Color Aggro 1-1-1
This was a really interesting deck, combining the vehicles + Colossus package with some eldrazi like Bearer of Silence and Herald of Kozilek. I managed to grind out a win in game 1, got crushed by Copter and Skysovereign in game 2. Some slow play from my opponent plus a late Linvala in game 3 meant that we ended in a tie. I don't know that I would have won if we had been able to play it out, but it was close.
Getting a tie in Round 1 was a bit of a downer because the event wasn't going to have a cut to top 8 or 4, so whoever won the swiss would win overall. I thought that the tie would put me out of the running, and yet...
Round 2 vs. Jeskai Control 2-1
Game 1 he got me with a Torrential Gearhulk I couldn't answer. Post sideboard, I was in a much better position with threats plus countermagic able to deal with pretty much anything he threw at me.
Round 3 vs. R/G Energy 2-0
I had to take a lot of hits from a bunch of big ground dudes until I could establish enough of a presence to turn it around. Multiform Wonder gave me fits because it was able to block my flyers, gain life, and attack. I eventually was able to overpower it with multiple Avacyns.
Round 4 vs. Bant 2-0
As mentioned above, Unsubstantiate > Tireless Tracker into Spell Queller > Tireless Tracker is a nasty tempo start that really disrupts the bant strategy. Again, I took some hits before stabilizing with a strong airforce. In game 2, my opponent got Copter flooded without enough pilots. Toward the end, he got close to a Westvale Abbey flip, but was off by a turn vs. Avacyn flip to close it out.
Round 5 vs. Bant 2-0
Going into the finals, I felt a bit bad for my opponent because he was the only 4-0 left, while I was 3-0-1, but he still had to play me to close out the event. I'll take what I can get though! His deck was very much the pre-rotation deck minus Collected Company, which made all the difference for me. Game 1 I was able to jam continuous spirit threats plus 2 Stasis Snare to maintain firm control, despite never getting above 3 lands. Game 2 my opponent got off to a good start, giving me a dose of my own medicine by hitting 2 Nebelgast Herald in a row with two of his own Spell Queller. He beat me down to 3 life, but the third Nebalgast finally landed and helped me finally lock him out with an unbeatable spirit airforce.
A few notes on the deck. I like the direction people have been going with the midrange version, but I think this build is a bit better in a few ways. Nebelgast Herald does a lot more than Reflector Mage. You get spirit synergies, which means you can get lots of taps out of a single Herald. It has evasion. It has flash. All of this plays much better into our gameplan than mage. Plus, so many cards you might bounce have strong ETB effects that you just don't want to trigger over and over again.
I also think Rattlechains is currently undervalued. Giving additional flash and hexproof are both very powerful effects that help you build out your board while getting around lots of interaction from your opponent.
I like the shift to Thraben Inspector. Mausoleum Wanderer hasn't been doing much for me lately. I'd rather have the extra card advantage than maybe counter something every once in a while.
4 port town
4 prairie stream
8 island
7 plains
Creatures: 22
4 mausoleum wanderer
4 selfless spirit
4 rattlechains
4 spell queller
4 nebelghast herald
2 reflector mage
3 essence flux
4 smuggler's copter
4 revolutionary rebuff
2 ongoing investigation
2 always watching
board: 15
4 ceremonious rejection
2 fragmentize
3 blessed alliance
2 negate
2 reflector mage
2 Gisela, the broken blade
I faced 2 delirium decks, 1 temur midrange (kibler-esque), and 2 non-spirit uw flash.
In all of these revolutionary rebuff was incredible, countering ishakanas, avacyns, lilianas, etc... it's super good.
I finally realize that ongoing investigation sucks though, infact, bygone bishop isn't great either. I'm replacing the investigations with the 4th flux (which is awesome btw) and I'm thinking the 3rd always watching, since it's almost critical in some matchups, plus being able to attack and surprise block with the copter is dirty.
I have Gisela in the board for the fast agro decks, didn't get to try her out, but I think it's probably correct. I think it's between her, aerial responder, or authority of the consuls. She has a higher ceiling than responder, and authority is only really effective if you cast it between turns 1 and 3. But when you cast authority within those turns, it's really good, so I'm torn on that slot.
I would love to get some imput on the 2 maindeck slots currently occupied by the investigations and the 2 board slots occupied by Gisela, if you guys have any thoughts.
EDIT: congrats moodles!
I agree with most of your thoughts at the end of your post, except that mausoleum wanderer is far better than inspector if you run nebelghast.
Wanderer is actually a bit better now that g/b is coming back since it lets you crew a copter when the opponent has bb open, which has been relevant for me. It's also just another way to protect your quellers and copters from burn spells. It being a flier is relevant because it gets around thraben inspectors, whereas yours would just sit around if you don't have a copter, also there aren't many good creatures that can block it outside of spell queller in the early turns, if they want to trade with a selfless spirit, then more power to them! It's pump effect has also won me games. I don't know if you've tested with it or not, but don't just write it off if you haven't, I was skeptical at first too.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Ongoing Investigation could be replaced by 2 Negates, so have additional answers to Copter, Gideon, Snares, etc...Gisela is not what you want on a R/x fast aggro decks, she will just eat Harness Lightning, Unlicensed Disentegration. Maybe 4th Blessed alliance and 1 Immolating Glare if your meta is super aggro like R/x or B/R vampires.
Also, you can cut 2 Ceremonious Rejection, for 2 Spell Shrivel. If you are worried about Marvel/Colussus Decks, I think 2 Rejection, 2 Shrivel, 2 Fragmentize and 2 Negates will do the job.
I might give the Revolutionary Rebuff a whirl, and see how it performs on the rest of the field.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
I've never had problems against them. My version runs 8 counterspells in the main, plus 4 more if you count rattlechains, selfless spirit and essence flux also sort of count.
I think rebuff is better than unsubstantiate, with unsub they can just cast the spell next turn, so you better hope you can kill them before they recast an ishkanah. I also don't think the bounce is especially useful, since we don't have a huge problem at dealing with creatures, I do like the idea of bouncing a copter though. Against the artifact decks you of course board out the rebuffs for rejection, I haven't quite figured out the best plan against agro, but it probably involves some sort of mix.
I was considering 2 negate in the main. It sounds good but then again since I'm playing 4 rattlechains and 3 essence flux (and to a lesser extent 4 selfless) I can beat spot removal. But it would be nice to have a turn 2 answer to copter in the main.
I was thinking that selfless spirit and essence flux would be enough to protect Gisela, it might not be though. I was wanting something that puts pressure on them, while padding our life, so a lifelinking creature is what I was thinking. Maybe it needs to be responder since it's cheaper, but Gisela has a huge upside if it sticks. I think I'd rather play authority of the consuls before more removal spells, since it buffs our life total and slows then down a ton, since, if they don't have a one drop, they can't crew a copter until turn 4 (assuming you don't have a reflector mage).
Ceremonious rejection is only for the marvel/colossus decks though, I don't really need more counters against other decks, so why not play the best one against the artifact decks?
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Well, I still agree to maindeck 3 R.Rebuff, but we need to mix at least 2 or 3 early game interaction to a resolved copter or early threats, something like Immolating Glare/Blessed Alliance.
I completely disagree with this approach. This deck is all about countering their plays, why kill an ishkanah and grind through the tokens, when you can just counter it? There aren't many cards that they play that we care about, it's removal spells, ishkanah, and Liliana, emrakul is obviously hard to beat, but they should be dead before they can get to it. It's all about correctly evaluating their cards. I think the "stock" u/w decks have a harder time at it than the more counter heavy tribal version though.
I totally agree. After theory crafting I realized that unsubstantiate is actually alittle bit better than reflector mage in the main because it can bounce a copter and, if they don't get a copter, it can delay their bomb. I think I just approached the card wrong. Right now I'm trying to figure out if the 3rd essence flux is better than the 3rd unsubstantiate, I think it probably is but I'm willing to be wrong. I do think that the 4th rebuff is better than the 3rd unsubstantiate though, it just permanently answers cards we have problems with. It is definitely worse than unsubstantiate against mardu vehicles though, but I expect that we will see stock uw and gb delirium more often than vehicles.
I just 4-1ed a league with this list (punted to g/r energy, had the win in hand), and I'm pretty sure I'm taking it to a pptq on Saturday:
8 island
8 plains
4 port town
4 prairie stream
Creatures: 20
4 mausoleum wanderer
4 selfless spirit
4 rattlechains
4 spell queller
4 nebelghast herald
3 essence flux
4 smuggler's copter
4 revolutionary rebuff
2 unsubstantiate
3 always watching
Board: 15
3 fragmentize
2 ceremonious rejection
4 declaration in stone
2 negate
4 reflector mage
I think I might need to swap out a plains for an island, I generally want as much blue as possible, but only need 2 white. I did get color screwed once or twice today.
Always watching is so freakin good right now, going wanderer, copter, queller, always watching with flux backup is really hard to beat. I was thinking about the 4th always watching but it's probably too much.
I haven't gotten a lot of chances to play against vehicles, so I'm not sure if my board plan is correct or not. In the games I have played against them I find that I'm not really playing much of a flash game, so I cut quellers and (obviously) rebuff, and i'm shaving 1 essence flux, for 3 fragmentize, 2 rejection and 4 reflector mage. I don't really like declaration in stone here, since it's really the vehicles that give you problems (thus the 3 fragmentize, where I'd only bring in 2 in other matches that call for it).
What do you guys think about that matchup?
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Currently I'm sitting with
Summary Dismissal as a 1 of but I want to go to 2.
Fragmentize has been a 2 of but I believe I'm dropping it to 1.
Ceremonious Rejection is great at 3.
Negate at 1 since I have 1 main.
Dispel I don't like this card, but I'm going to test with it some more at 1.
Blessed Alliance was disappointing at 3 so I'm moving it to 2.
Fumigate is either a 1 or 2.
I previously had Always Watching and Authority of the Consuls at 2 each but I'm not sure I like them in the sb at all. I need to get a Jace, Unraveler of Secrets for the sb and I may test out a Dovin Baan as a 1of sb card too.
Current Decks
Standard / Type 2
BRMidrange
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
Always watching is definitely a main board or not at all card, I think it's a really important card for the deck right now. Authority just hasn't been as good as I wish it would be it always seems good in theory but in practice you always draw it on turn 5 and hate life.
What are your plans with the other cards and can you post your current list for context?
I was thinking about 2 fumigate as well but I don't think it does enough against vehicle decks so it would just be for rg agro which isn't bad, but I want something for vehicles personally.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
6 Island
8 Plains
4 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
2 Westvale Abbey
Creatures:
3 Archangel Avacyn
4 Spell Queller
4 Reflector Mage
4 Selfless Spirit
2 Rattlechains
4 Thraben Inspecter
3 Smuggler's Copter
1 Spell Shrivel
3 Stasis Snare
1 Declaration in Stone
1 Negate
3 Revolutionary Rebuff
3 Essence Flux
I'd like to cut Reflector back to 3 and I'm testing Shrivel over Void Shatter as the 2U as been rough in testing.
As for the SB:
Summary is great vs Emerge, an option vs planeswalkers, and decent vs control.
Frag is for the Aetherwork decks.
Ceremonious is for the Aetherwork decks and the artifact combo decks.
Negate is there for control and planeswalkers.
Dispel is for control.
Blessed is for aggro.
Fumigate is decks that go wide.
I now have Dovin as a singleton in my sb for control and 2 Authority for aggro since I couldn't find any better options.
Current Decks
Standard / Type 2
BRMidrange
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
Gideon is great in the midrange build with Thraban Inspector, Reflector Mage and Avacyn in a slower, more land heavy build. When I played that list I often just emblemmed immediately. But in a more tempo oriented, spirits synergy build with Wanderer as the one drop and Nebalgeist Herald as the tempo creature (and typically no Avacyns) there is more of a premium on speed. Always Watching comes down sooner and vigilence is a big deal, allowing you to be very aggressive during your combat step to try to get the beats in the air early and often.
The midrange and tempo lists play very differently, with the tempo lists running much less expensive cards, always running Rattlechains, and trying to get extreme value out of Mausoleum Wanderer's pump ability during combat moreso than trying to counter spells in most cases. Nebalgast Herald shenanigans with Essense Flux make this build very dangerous. I throw in a couple Bygone Bishops as well to try to get some clues to refuel in grindier matchups.
The tempo build is difficult to play. Today I won a game a game against a BR Thing in the Ice, Dynavolt Tower deck where after fighting through a resolved Chandra I passed four turns in a row to rebuild my hand and then Reflector Maged one TitI and Unsubstantiated another with counter backup on the same turn to take over the game. I was patient and lucky, but sometimes you have to play that way with a tempo build. That reminds me, I'm running four Reflector Mage in the sideboard; sometimes I replace the Nebalgasts with them, depending on the matchup, but in this game I replaced the Spell Quellers, which I felt were too vulnerable to burn spells.
The tempo list is super fun to play, but I'm not convinced that it is better.
I wasn't able to read the transition and with U/W flash domination GP KL I thought this was the topic. We see less play with the spirit tempo but like you, I find it more challenging thus gaining my interest. I'll have play more with this build. I'm currently losing 70% of the matches but I'm getting the hang of it
I am considering building it but on paper it looks like uw is heavily favored
I beat 2 jeskai control decks, and a really bad b/w midrange deck. I lost to a jeskai control deck due to dynavolt tower, I should have won game one but drew 3 lands in a row (it happens :/ ) and didn't see the towers game 1 so I didn't bring in fragmentize. Then I lost to a br agro deck that was really heavy with burn (it played collective defiance, collective brutality, and alms of the vein) I usually board out quellers for reflector mages in these kind of matchups on the draw, but I only saw inventor's apprentice, bomat courier, and pia nalaar, and since he was heavy in burn I figured queller would be better on the draw than the usual reflector mage plan, big mistake, he beat me with creatures. I also brought in fragmentize for his copters, turns out he boarded out all of his vehicles expecting me to bring in fragmentize, so I died with a fragmentize in hand after taking about 4 hits from a bomat courier waiting for a better target, along with 2 quellers.
So I lost 2 matches due to boarding mistakes.
I never played against the stock u/w list, gb delirium, or vehicles, which is what I was expecting to face. Oh well.
I did swap out a sideboarded declaration for the 3rd unsubstantiate, as a way to deal with copters and other vehicles in the mardu matchup, not sure if it's right or not. But I wouldn't change anything about the deck, just didn't have the right read on my opponent's decks.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
As far as feedback on the deck, I honestly am getting to the point where I really don't like Copter. I know it's the best card in Standard currently so I'm a maniac to say this but I just don't think it works in this deck that well. Turn 2 plays are so powerful in so many decks that us tapping out for it (especially on the draw) just sets us so far back. The one match I won was a U/W mirror where I sb them out for games 2 and 3. Maybe it's just my list but I really am leaning towards moving Copter to the sb and only bringing in when on the play in specific matchups.
Current Decks
Standard / Type 2
BRMidrange
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
Modern: UW Spirits