Thought knot is a solid creature with hand disruption. It may not be infinite obliteration, but it can stall long enough to bash face. I would imagine he is there to eat removal spells since, one way or another he does that very well.
Drowner of hope can be a stand in for brood monitor in a non-infinite combo version. the bigger body and tap effect are REALLY good. You could bring both into a transformation SB, turning your Combo deck into a more solid midrange deck with Eldrazi Displacer abuse. this is what I was going for with my original list, but I never thought to go for 4 colors.
You are basically trading the immediate infinite combo for one that just requires mana for you to use in iterations. In exchange you get a stronger tempo/midrange beatdown game.
You are still able to use the Displacer combo to grind out opponents, but you have a stronger beatdown game MD, and some spicy board control options with Drowner of Hope that give you more effective ways of putting your opponent on a clock even if you aren't going to combo out. You also have a little bit more resiliency to Languish, even before you hit Sideboard.
I'll be adding these lists to the main post shortly.
I've been on Humans for awhile, but I think I'm switching to this deck in light of the shifting meta. Getting stonewalled by GW Tokens game after game gets a bit old.
Not much else to say tbh. Hoping that this does a bit better for me than the aggro deck has.
I've been on Humans for awhile, but I think I'm switching to this deck in light of the shifting meta. Getting stonewalled by GW Tokens game after game gets a bit old.
Not much else to say tbh. Hoping that this does a bit better for me than the aggro deck has.
This is definitely a good choice if you're running into a lot of GW Tokens. You just have to focus on not dying and being mindful of Tragic Arrogance. This deck really shines against all of the creature decks floating around.
The Languish/Radiant Flames matchup is very difficult though.
Been playing a lot of control lately and decided to change it up a bit and this combo deck caught my eye. I've been working on an Abzan variant that I would like to get some feedback on it. Despite the strong showing of the four color versions in recent events I'm still a bit leery of running a four color deck in the current standard
The deck keeps the infinite combo with Cutthroat, Displacer, and Monitor, while also including the Avacyn + Displacer combo. Side board was based off Louis Deltour's sideboard, with a tweaks due to the lack of blue.
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Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Leaving out the blue isn't gamebreaking, but you are potentially leaving Reflector Mage off the table. That may not seem like much, but to be fair, he's one of the best "removal" spells in the Mirror, buying you time and coming in on the back of CoCo.
Honestly the list looks immanently playable. It is similar to the initial list I posted when creating this thread and should be pretty strong. Avacyn Gives you solid beats shy of combo-ing out, and can protect your board vs. destruction based removal. You can probably shave a copy of displacer, since you only really want him in a combo scenario and commiting him is begging to get him removed ... but its tit for tat really.
Just out of curiosity, what are people's thoughts on Blighted Fen? Does it potentially have a place with this deck or does the fact it only adds C make it unplayable?
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Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
It's completely unplayable in this archetype. Westvale Abbey is the only non color producing land that you can play, and I'm not sure whether we even want more than 2 of them.
If you want the Blighted Fen effect, you just play Merciless Executioner.
I'll disagree with jar75, but only slightly. Additional colorless lands can work in 3-color or Colorless/Eldrazi heavy builds, but you need to be very sparing about them.
In 4-color, you are stretched thin and adding additional colorless land effects is taking on a large amount of risk -- unless you are just cutting elsewhere and adding lands... but even then you are fudging the probabilities behind opening hands and coco/recruiter hits ... etc.
What is your experience/opinion with Matter Reshaper in sideboard instead Advocate?
Is this the right move when you expect more Languish/Radiant Flames decks then usual?
I haven't tried Matter Reshaper, but I happily board in the Advocates against the Languish/Flames decks. I'm not entirely sure what matchup you'd want the Matter Reshapers.
What's the gameplan for Game 1 if your Zulaport(s) get taken out either via Obliteration, counter or removal?
Also, do you only do the transform sideboard against control decks? Otherwise no sideboarding?
Cutthroat should be the last thing you commit to the board, but if it happens to be nabbed at some point, there are alternate lines. As a CoCo deck, you can often just be on the beatdown plan; Reflector Mage gives you great tempo swings; and Eldrazi Displacer can dominate the battlefield (especially if Reflector Mage is involved). Westvale Abbey is another route that wins games quickly and is not too hard to get online.
Edit: As for sideboarding, against Languish and heavy spot removal decks, the combo comes out for your Eldrazi/Advocates. I still sideboard against the other decks, but it's far less drastic. Advocates are good against WW. Transgress the Mind / Negate are important against Tragic Arrogance decks. Enlightened Ascetic / Dromoka's Command give you enchantment removal in the mirror.
I have tried this deck this weekend, the 4-colored version of it, and it has been good and bad for me. Being 4-colored made it quite hard to settle things down with bad hands that you have to keep. There were so many times that I lost because I had to used colored mana off painlands too much.
I tend toward Bant route with Pious Evangel over Zulaport Cutthroat now. Evangel may not be an instant kill but it should give you a better chance in bad hand situations.
I have tried this deck this weekend, the 4-colored version of it, and it has been good and bad for me. Being 4-colored made it quite hard to settle things down with bad hands that you have to keep. There were so many times that I lost because I had to used colored mana off painlands too much.
I tend toward Bant route with Pious Evangel over Zulaport Cutthroat now. Evangel may not be an instant kill but it should give you a better chance in bad hand situations.
If you're dropping a color, I don't know if you should really be trying to combo kill anymore. Losing Catacomb Sifter makes things so much more difficult that I'd just play Bant CoCo.
Iv been playing 4c Displacer Combo but have been losing a lot to what was supposed to be a Okay match up in G/W tokens. the 2 main board tragic arrogance destroys my board usually leaving them with angel and planeswalker, they run 4 dromokas command main destroys rites usually killing a piece of combo too and finally things get worse after sideboard when they have moonlight, less hangerwalkers to bounce and more arrogance any advice or mainboard or sideboard changes i could make for a heavy g/w meta game?
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Modern UBRWGHumansUBRWG UMerfolkU
Eldrazi Tron Legacy WDeath & TaxesW Pauper RGoblinsR EDH UGMerfolk ComboGU Standard UWApproachWU
Is there any merit to running Nissa, Voice of Zendikar over Sylvan Advocat? My immediate though is that I don't want to go too low on Company targets, but a list made top 8 of the scg event with that configuration last weekend.
I am not sure what would be making GW tougher to deal with than usual, as one of the reasons to play 4c Combo Rites is its ability interact with GW Tokens.
Nissa can be an okay addition to a build... if you notice in the sample builds I included a build that is actually a doppleganger of GW tokens (G/W Beefcake Build) with the Combo included. But, as you said, it is a risk weighed by Collected Company. I need more context before I can say its a good or bad idea.
Heading to Grand Prix Minneapolis next week and decided on the four color version of this deck to be one of two I decide between for the tournament. Here is where the list is currently at:
Any feedback or points of improvement would be greatly appreciated. I'm most worried about the mana base and my sideboard. I'm not sure what to expect at the GP either, thought GW Tokens and W/x humans will likely be the most popular choices
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Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Don't cut Displacer. That mana base seems shaky, not sure I see the utility of Shambling Vents. By cutting 2 Evolving Wilds, you are shaving critical green sources. I'm not thrilled with cutting a loam dryad either.
I would keep the stock 60 as is. You can play with 3 Abbey / 3 Caves vs. 2/4.
I also am a big fan of 1 Cutthroat / 4 Rites. But if you want to make room for an Archangel I would shave a Cutthroat to do so. As many have said, it's the worst card in the deck until you are ready to combo off.
@Galatolol: Clip Wings also answers an opposing Avacyn was she's been flashed in, as it gets around the indestructible, and Sphinx of the Final Word which is becoming more popular in the non-Dragons control decks.
@Str1e5: The Vents were more for when siding in the Advocate, but I see the point you're making here.
Taking the suggestions from here I've made the following changes:
+2 Evolving Wilds
+1 Loam Dryad
-1 Zulaport Cuthroat
-2 Shambling Vent
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Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Don't cut Displacer. That mana base seems shaky, not sure I see the utility of Shambling Vents. By cutting 2 Evolving Wilds, you are shaving critical green sources. I'm not thrilled with cutting a loam dryad either.
I would keep the stock 60 as is. You can play with 3 Abbey / 3 Caves vs. 2/4.
I also am a big fan of 1 Cutthroat / 4 Rites. But if you want to make room for an Archangel I would shave a Cutthroat to do so. As many have said, it's the worst card in the deck until you are ready to combo off.
Yeah, I agree with all of this. I've been very happy with the stock 60 (the 1 Cutthroat / 4 Rites / 4 Caves version).
Avacyn is a powerful creature, but I don't see any obvious reason to play her in the deck. She's hard to cast, can't get him off of CoCo, wraths our own board if she flips, and still dies to Languish.
Avacyn is basically a toolbox card in this deck, easy to Sideboard. Some people may want her main deck based on their meta, and she is very strong in her own right. The balance lies in deciding if you want to focus more on the combo, or beating down face and holding the combo as a trump.
Avacyn leans you more toward traditional creature combat.
Can anyone comment on this deck's current position in the meta? I keep seeing all sorts of rites variations and arguments for each one, and honestly I'm a little lost as to what variation is the strongest right now.
Drowner of hope can be a stand in for brood monitor in a non-infinite combo version. the bigger body and tap effect are REALLY good. You could bring both into a transformation SB, turning your Combo deck into a more solid midrange deck with Eldrazi Displacer abuse. this is what I was going for with my original list, but I never thought to go for 4 colors.
4 Loam Dryad
4 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 Catacomb Sifter
4 Reflector Mage
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Brood Monitor
Instant (4)
4 Collected Company
3 Cryptolith Rite
Land (24)
3 Caves of Koilos
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Westvale Abbey
1 Enlightened Ascetic
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Negate
2 Transgress the Mind
4 Reality Smasher
4 Sylvan Advocate
To commemorate the move to the Proven forum, here's a revised list for a 4c non-infinite meta build
1x Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
4x Catacomb Sifter
3x Drowner of Hope
4x Duskwatch Recruiter
3x Eldrazi Displacer
3x Elvish Visionary
1x Liliana, Heretical Healer
4x Loam Dryad
1x Nantuko Husk
4x Reflector Mage
2x Zulaport Cutthroat
Instant (4)
4x Collected Company
3x Cryptolith Rite
Land (23)
2x Canopy Vista
2x Caves of Koilos
3x Evolving Wilds
1x Forest
3x Llanowar Wastes
1x Plains
2x Prairie Stream
1x Sunken Hollow
1x Swamp
3x Westvale Abbey
4x Yavimaya Coast
2x Archangel Avacyn
1x Enlightened Ascetic
4x Reality Smasher
2x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Transgress the Mind
2x Warping Wail
You are still able to use the Displacer combo to grind out opponents, but you have a stronger beatdown game MD, and some spicy board control options with Drowner of Hope that give you more effective ways of putting your opponent on a clock even if you aren't going to combo out. You also have a little bit more resiliency to Languish, even before you hit Sideboard.
I'll be adding these lists to the main post shortly.
Not much else to say tbh. Hoping that this does a bit better for me than the aggro deck has.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
This is definitely a good choice if you're running into a lot of GW Tokens. You just have to focus on not dying and being mindful of Tragic Arrogance. This deck really shines against all of the creature decks floating around.
The Languish/Radiant Flames matchup is very difficult though.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
3 Blisterpod
3 Loam Dryad
4 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 Catacomb Sifter
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Archangel Avacyn
3 Brood Monitor
4 Collected Company
Enchantment (3)
3 Cryptolith Rite
Lands (24)
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Forest
2 Hissing Quagmire
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
2 Westvale Abbey
2 Clip Wings
4 Sylvan Advocate
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Zulaport Cutthroat
2 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
The deck keeps the infinite combo with Cutthroat, Displacer, and Monitor, while also including the Avacyn + Displacer combo. Side board was based off Louis Deltour's sideboard, with a tweaks due to the lack of blue.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Honestly the list looks immanently playable. It is similar to the initial list I posted when creating this thread and should be pretty strong. Avacyn Gives you solid beats shy of combo-ing out, and can protect your board vs. destruction based removal. You can probably shave a copy of displacer, since you only really want him in a combo scenario and commiting him is begging to get him removed ... but its tit for tat really.
Just out of curiosity, what are people's thoughts on Blighted Fen? Does it potentially have a place with this deck or does the fact it only adds C make it unplayable?
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
If you want the Blighted Fen effect, you just play Merciless Executioner.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
In 4-color, you are stretched thin and adding additional colorless land effects is taking on a large amount of risk -- unless you are just cutting elsewhere and adding lands... but even then you are fudging the probabilities behind opening hands and coco/recruiter hits ... etc.
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and Archangel Avacyn are also good targets in a lot of matchups.
Transgress the Mind can also hit all of these targets, but only if they have them in hand, and then they might just draw into another, so I tend to run both Transgress the Mind and Infinite Obliteration for tough matchups.
I haven't tried Matter Reshaper, but I happily board in the Advocates against the Languish/Flames decks. I'm not entirely sure what matchup you'd want the Matter Reshapers.
I don't like Infinite Obliteration at all.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Also, do you only do the transform sideboard against control decks? Otherwise no sideboarding?
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
Cutthroat should be the last thing you commit to the board, but if it happens to be nabbed at some point, there are alternate lines. As a CoCo deck, you can often just be on the beatdown plan; Reflector Mage gives you great tempo swings; and Eldrazi Displacer can dominate the battlefield (especially if Reflector Mage is involved). Westvale Abbey is another route that wins games quickly and is not too hard to get online.
Edit: As for sideboarding, against Languish and heavy spot removal decks, the combo comes out for your Eldrazi/Advocates. I still sideboard against the other decks, but it's far less drastic. Advocates are good against WW. Transgress the Mind / Negate are important against Tragic Arrogance decks. Enlightened Ascetic / Dromoka's Command give you enchantment removal in the mirror.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
I tend toward Bant route with Pious Evangel over Zulaport Cutthroat now. Evangel may not be an instant kill but it should give you a better chance in bad hand situations.
If you're dropping a color, I don't know if you should really be trying to combo kill anymore. Losing Catacomb Sifter makes things so much more difficult that I'd just play Bant CoCo.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
UBRWGHumansUBRWG
UMerfolkU
Eldrazi Tron
Legacy
WDeath & TaxesW
Pauper
RGoblinsR
EDH
UGMerfolk ComboGU
Standard
UWApproachWU
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Nissa can be an okay addition to a build... if you notice in the sample builds I included a build that is actually a doppleganger of GW tokens (G/W Beefcake Build) with the Combo included. But, as you said, it is a risk weighed by Collected Company. I need more context before I can say its a good or bad idea.
3 Loam Dryad
4 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 Catacomb Sifter
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Reflector Mage
2 Archangel Avacyn
3 Brood Monitor
Instant (4)
4 Collected Company
3 Cryptolith Rite
Lands (24)
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Evolving Wilds
3 Forest
1 Island
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
1 Swamp
2 Westvale Abbey
3 Yavimaya Coast
2 Clip Wings
2 Negate
4 Sylvan Advocate
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
Any feedback or points of improvement would be greatly appreciated. I'm most worried about the mana base and my sideboard. I'm not sure what to expect at the GP either, thought GW Tokens and W/x humans will likely be the most popular choices
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
I would keep the stock 60 as is. You can play with 3 Abbey / 3 Caves vs. 2/4.
I also am a big fan of 1 Cutthroat / 4 Rites. But if you want to make room for an Archangel I would shave a Cutthroat to do so. As many have said, it's the worst card in the deck until you are ready to combo off.
@Str1e5: The Vents were more for when siding in the Advocate, but I see the point you're making here.
Taking the suggestions from here I've made the following changes:
+2 Evolving Wilds
+1 Loam Dryad
-1 Zulaport Cuthroat
-2 Shambling Vent
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Yeah, I agree with all of this. I've been very happy with the stock 60 (the 1 Cutthroat / 4 Rites / 4 Caves version).
Avacyn is a powerful creature, but I don't see any obvious reason to play her in the deck. She's hard to cast, can't get him off of CoCo, wraths our own board if she flips, and still dies to Languish.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Avacyn leans you more toward traditional creature combat.